Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Makkers]

I personally don't like "What if" arguments.

"What if a bullfrog had wings?"

Answer: Well, it'd fly.

"What if a FS is used and I lost?"

Answer: You lost.

 

[Alias]

I personally don't like "What if" arguments.

"What if a bullfrog had wings?"

Answer: Well, it'd fly.

"What if a FS is used and I lost?"

Answer: You lost.

lol

 

[pyrotek7x7]

I don't think it will. Different Final Smashes are good for different things. Some are good for 1 vs. 1, and others are good for free for alls.

I just don't see it happening. Too much of a match-changer.

 

[WoapGang]

\





And yes you're right you can avoid it if you don't touch ground. So in order for you not to get lumpy coal, you have to play as specific characters or get screwed in full. What a wonderful way to balance the game.

I almost forgot about that, but maybe you can fall asleep while airborne now

 

[GhostAnime]

I personally don't like "What if" arguments.

"What if a bullfrog had wings?"

Answer: Well, it'd fly.

"What if a FS is used and I lost?"

Answer: You lost.

the whole point of those kinds of posts is to prove that they're more luck based than skill based. if you can't retort them, don't bother saying anything like that.

 

[Crispy4001]

Do I even have to say whats wrong with that example?



Talk about a EXTREME example. Even on Very high, items don't spawn that fast. in the videos one ball appeared about every 1:30 minutes ( and we don't now if they were on very high, or very low)
In order for Peach to have killed you with a final smash, eat the item recovery things (didn't see what they were) then break another final smash, All this while you were just flying off??
EXTREME






Game returned to even playing fields, but you lose? Seems like that was your fault to me...



god what am I posting for, I said i was done ><
That's it, no matter what I'm shutting up now. No more post in this thread.

An extreme example is an example non-the-less. Getting a Final Smash while your opponent is on his way to his death/re-spawning IS A FACTOR. Just like exploding crates.



As for the even playing field, I forgot to include that peach could fit in a Smash attack on you as well while you're asleep (edited it in, but looks like you replied before you could see it). So no, not even playing fields.

Even still, all that progress you righteously earned would be taken away from you. Not because your opponent outplayed you, but because you were given lumpy coal.

 

[sdhonda]

I have no doubt it will be banned.

 

[Crispy4001]

I personally don't like "What if" arguments.

"What if a bullfrog had wings?"

Answer: Well, it'd fly.

"What if a FS is used and I lost?"

Answer: You lost.

"What if's" are why items are banned.

 

[WoapGang]

I don't think it will. Different Final Smashes are good for different things. Some are good for 1 vs. 1, and others are good for free for alls.

I just don't see it happening. Too much of a match-changer.

Well how often do you see free-for-all professional tournament matches in the first place?

 

[BentoBox]

IMHO, the "skilled players should be able to adapt" excuse is way overrated. The best ssbm player in the world won't beat the second best if the former uses Bowser and the latter Marth simply because he's more skilled. There are inherent characteristics to every character that we have no power on. Hence why Tiers exist. The people whining that tournament players are a bunch of elitist ***s having fun duking it out on FD as space animals, I don't see how it is going to be any different in SSBB if instead of trying to decrease the gap, char-potential wise, you allow items that do nothing but make sure that ultimately, the character you use has more influence over the outcome of a battle than the skill of the player. Items are banned for a reason. SmashBalls -are- items and no, the more skilled player won't always be breaking the ball first because of a few random factors I've already talked about. Whatever you guys say, smashballs -will-always put someone at an advantage. I can already suspect Bowser to be back down tier-wise, because of his lack of speed preventing him to get his paws on SBs before his opponents. I can imagine how chars such as pit and metaknight would have an advantage due to the fact that they can land rapid consecutive hits while airborne...

Would you guys allow Starman in tourneys if they only spawned in boxes that could take a bit more of a beating?

 

[Makkers]

the whole point of those kinds of posts is to prove that they're more luck based than skill based. if you can't retort them, don't bother saying anything like that.

You can't retort rhetorical situations because, you know, they don't exist. Since they don't exist, you haven't really proven anything.

The best way to prove something is through actual testing. Once you get that out of the way, then we have something to build upon.

 

[Makkers]

"What if's" are why items are banned.

That's because the concept of items are built on "what ifs" aka the random factor. The only thing that's random about FSs is the appearance of a Smash Ball. It's not like FSs are rotating between various possible FSs.

 

[GhostAnime]

You can't retort rhetorical situations because, you know, they don't exist. Since they don't exist, you haven't really proven anything.

The best way to prove something is through actual testing. Once you get that out of the way, then we have something to build upon.

the what if's aren't exactly impossible. they can and will happen.

 

[Dantarion]

No one can post anything that beats this one point.

Smash Ball spawning position = RANDOM.

That alone means that tourney's won't use it.
The idea of tourney rules is to take out all randomness from the game.

 

[Crispy4001]

That's because the concept of items are built on "what ifs" aka the random factor. The only thing that's random about FSs is the appearance of a Smash Ball. It's not like FSs are rotating between various possible FSs.

Which is also why FS should be banned. They spawn randomly just like items, and therefore may be easier acquired by certain players given the luck of the draw.


That said, how you acquire them isn't even the biggest reason. It's the moves themselves. Would you play in a tournament with Stars and Maximum Tomatoes on? No.


So what would you do about characters who's Final Smashes accomplish the same (and more)? You'd have to ban characters. I'm not even kidding.

 

[Makkers]

the what if's aren't exactly impossible. they can and will happen.

There is a chance of a car going through my house and hitting me as I watch Heroes. Will it happen anytime soon? Sure but the probability is low as long as my house is not a tunnel of a certain street.

There are varying factors in life and in a game it's no different. As I said, when there has been testing done that dictates situation X will happen 90% of the time, then it will be a cause for concern. Until then, you're basically crying about nothing.

 

[Enlong]

An extreme example is an example non-the-less. Getting Final Smash while your opponent is on his way to his death/re-spawning IS A FACTOR. Just like exploding crates.



As for the even playing field, I forgot to include that peach could fit in a Smash attack on you as well while you're asleep (edited it in, but looks like you replied before you could see it). So no, not even playing fields.

Even still, all that progress you righteously earned would be taken away from you. Not because your opponent outplayed you, but because you were given lumpy coal.

Even in that example. there's still stuff that can be done. The player fighting against Peach could use Recovery Platform invincibility to avoid the Final Smash by attacking Peach, or head for the edges of the screen where they'll be protected from the Final Smash (in the video with Peach's Final, one of the characters, I think it was Ike, did not get sleepified until he walked out from the Peach pictures and into the visible portion of the screen. So to avoid Peach's Final, you go off the screen or hide behind the pictures of Peach) and then retaliate on Peach once it's safe to do so. None of the Final Smashes I've seen are inherently unavoidable; they can be dodged or hid from, and in the case of player-controlled Finals, you can mindgame or just dodge the player. There will be ways to avoid them.

I kind of see the Final Smashes as sort of any other move or weapon (Before anything is said, I'm thinking stuff like Beam Swords and Bombs, not Hammers, Starmen and Hearts, those things are just crazy), you just get bigger return if it's used right, because it's more difficult to execute (smash it open without accidentally sending over to your foe, use it before it's beat out of you, use it in the right way, etc.).

As for the thing about their random flight paths, or some lucky person landing the decisive blow to smash it open? From what I could make out of the videos I saw, the Smash balls seem (if I'm wrong on this, please correct me) to fly in more of a regular path then an erratic pattern, and as for someone Final Smash-stealing by landing the last hit? Well that's just something you have to consider: is it better to hit it in this way, or use a different move to change the flight, or lure the foe to it so that you can land that "decisive hit" yourself.

 

[Dantarion]

Im waiting for someone to beat my "random spawn position" factor out of the way.

 

[Team Giza]

I can already suspect Bowser to be back down tier-wise, because of his lack of speed preventing him to get his paws on SBs before his opponents. I can imagine how chars such as pit and metaknight would have an advantage due to the fact that they can land rapid consecutive hits while airborne...

We don't know exactly how the hits work yet. For all we know one of Bowser fair could open the ball up much faster than Pit's muti-hit attack.

 

[Master Peach]

In other words, the game threw him a lucky break. You got lumpy coal. Therefore, you lost.

Sounds like a great approach for a true test of skill.





And yes you're right you can avoid it if you don't touch ground. So in order for you not to get lumpy coal, you have to play as specific characters or get screwed in full. What a wonderful way to balance the game.

Pit and Peach are characters I'm gonna main. That's why I said that. But I never said that other characters couldn't find a way to stay off screen until the time expired. Edge hogging may help. I'm sure people can get a little creative with this. If your a true smasher you'll find a way.

 

[Doggalina]

Hey, if any of you pro-Final Smash guys want to decide whether it's tournament legal, get in the Smash Back Room. They make the law.

 

[Crispy4001]

Even in that example. there's still stuff that can be done. The player fighting against Peach could use Recovery Platform invincibility to avoid the Final Smash by attacking Peach, or head for the edges of the screen where they'll be protected from the Final Smash (in the video with Peach's Final, one of the characters, I think it was Ike, did not get sleepified until he walked out from the Peach pictures and into the visible portion of the screen. So to avoid Peach's Final, you go off the screen or hide behind the pictures of Peach) and then retaliate on Peach once it's safe to do so. None of the Final Smashes I've seen are inherently unavoidable; they can be dodged or hid from, and in the case of player-controlled Finals, you can mindgame or just dodge the player. There will be ways to avoid them.

I kind of see the Final Smashes as sort of any other move or weapon (Before anything is said, I'm thinking stuff like Beam Swords and Bombs, not Hammers, Starmen and Hearts, those things are just crazy), you just get bigger return if it's used right, because it's more difficult to execute (smash it open without accidentally sending over to your foe, use it before it's beat out of you, use it in the right way, etc.).

As for the thing about their random flight paths, or some lucky person landing the decisive blow to smash it open? From what I could make out of the videos I saw, the Smash balls seem (if I'm wrong on this, please correct me) to fly in more of a regular path then an erratic pattern, and as for someone Final Smash-stealing by landing the last hit? Well that's just something you have to consider: is it better to hit it in this way, or use a different move to change the flight, or lure the foe to it so that you can land that "decisive hit" yourself.

Recovery platform invincibility has been shortened from Melee. There's no reason Peach can't dodge for a second or two then use it.


And the edge screen issue is negligible. It's a matter of timing B when you're close enough. Used right, it should be practically unavoidable. And no matter, it's still advantageous - walking onto the screen will sleep you, meaning she'll always get her picking of the health items.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

Well how often do you see free-for-all professional tournament matches in the first place?

Exactly. So those with 1 vs. 1 final smashes will shoot up into top tier.

Like Link. That's a 1 vs. 1 FS.

 

[Team Giza]

No one can post anything that beats this one point.

Smash Ball spawning position = RANDOM.

That alone means that tourney's won't use it.
The idea of tourney rules is to take out all randomness from the game.

Smash Ball spawn may be random, yes. But the way it moves makes the spawn point meaningless. The way it works also gives all players enough time to react to it appearing so overall the spawn point does not justify the smash ball being banned from tournaments.

 

[Makkers]

Which is also why FS should be banned. They spawn randomly just like items, and therefore may be easier acquired by certain players given the luck of the draw.


That said, how you acquire them isn't even the biggest reason. It's the moves themselves. Would you play in a tournament with Stars and Maximum Tomatoes on? No.


So what would you do about characters who's Final Smashes accomplish the same (and more)? You'd have to ban characters. I'm not even kidding.

Smash Balls may spawn randomly like items but they don't play out like items. That's the biggest difference. They are simply buffs that opens up another move associated with your character.

Anyways, Final Smashes will not win matches. They may help tilt a match but the deciding factor will be the player's ability to play his character. There is no way you can say that FSs are basically the same an item buff since the FS is part of your character. That means coming into a match, you know what a character is capable of. An item is just a random event within a match that can result in multiple possibilities.

 

[BananaNut]

Well, firstoff I think we need to define what "the game" is. Nintendo made the smash ball for a reason: To add a new aspect to the game. Basically, if your opponent gets his final smash off, and you don't. You don't have to sit there and whine about it. (I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.) It's just a part of the game, and In my opinion, to strip that aspect from the game is not fair to both players.

 

[Enlong]

Im waiting for someone to beat my "random spawn position" factor out of the way.

If the Samus VS Mario video was any indication, one attack isn't enough to break open a Smash Ball, and hitting it once sends it flying, so even if it spawns right next to you, acting recklessly on that will end up negating that advantage. Plus, all of the stages shown so far are relatively small, meaning that even if you're on opposite sides, that's still a pretty small gap to close.

 

[Master Peach]

In other words, the game threw him a lucky break. You got lumpy coal. Therefore, you lost.

Sounds like a great approach for a true test of skill.





And yes you're right you can avoid it if you don't touch ground. So in order for you not to get lumpy coal, you have to play as specific characters or get screwed in full. What a wonderful way to balance the game.

Pit and Peach are characters I'm gonna main. That's why I said that. But I never said that other characters couldn't find a way to stay off screen until the time expired. Edge hogging may help. I'm sure people can get a little creative with this. If your a true smasher you'll find a way.

 

[BentoBox]

FS do win matches if both players are equally skilled because one of them is granted an unfair advantage. And don't give me that "the other shouldn't have let him take it" crap, because random factors can also act in favor of one or the other, factors which you have no power on.

Well, firstoff I think we need to define what "the game" is. Nintendo made the smash ball for a reason: To add a new aspect to the game. Basically, if your opponent gets his final smash off, and you don't. You don't have to sit there and whine about it. (I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.) It's just a part of the game, and In my opinion, to strip that aspect from the game is not fair to both players.

Nobody forces you to enter the competitive scene if you have no fun. Pokeballs are also a part of the game. Brinstar Depths is also a part of the game. So what? Nintendo didn't plan the game thinking of competitive smashers. The game would be a lot more different if it only catered to comp. smashers.

 

[WoapGang]

Exactly. So those with 1 vs. 1 final smashes will shoot up into top tier.

Like Link. That's a 1 vs. 1 FS.

That includes Kirby also i would assume. And there's also the possible fact that the after affect of Kirby's FS might spawn MORE Smash balls.

At the beginning of this thread i was pro-FS for tournaments but i think everyone here has changed my mind. Unless EVERY SINGLE Final Smash can be dodged...either the FS's themselves have to be banned, or the characters do...

 

[AttackstorM]

Sonic's FS is better than Samus'... o,o

The simple fact that items appear randomly around the map makes it unbalanced. It won't always be possible to fight for the SmashBall... What if it spawns on the left side of the map while I've just knocked my opponent on its right side and is trying to come back while I smash the ball?

agreed
...this discussion should have been over after this post by bentobox on page 2 lol

 

[Master Peach]

In other words, the game threw him a lucky break. You got lumpy coal. Therefore, you lost.

Sounds like a great approach for a true test of skill.





And yes you're right you can avoid it if you don't touch ground. So in order for you not to get lumpy coal, you have to play as specific characters or get screwed in full. What a wonderful way to balance the game.

Pit and Peach are characters I'm gonna main. That's why I said that. But I never said that other characters couldn't find a way to stay off screen until the time expired. Edge hogging may help. I'm sure people can get a little creative with this. If your a true smasher you'll find a way.

 

[Crispy4001]

Smash Balls may spawn randomly like items but they don't play out like items. That's the biggest difference. They are simply buffs that opens up another move associated with your character.

Anyways, Final Smashes will not win matches. They may help tilt a match but the deciding factor will be the player's ability to play his character. There is no way you can say that FSs are basically the same an item buff since the FS is part of your character. That means coming into a match, you know what a character is capable of. An item is just a random event within a match that can result in multiple possibilities.

You're not getting it. In a literal sense, you could call any item an extension of a character's moveset. Differences in execution are that you press B instead of A to use it, and you can't throw the Smash Ball. Just like items, when you pick it up, you gain it's benefits and it's use.


And the use is uber. No, admitedly it's not a sure-fire thing for most characters (some more than others), but it's better than and takes priority over any other item or move. Bigger range, better outcome, etc.

When you can KO someone at low percents (58%) with it from the center of the stage (as in Samus' case), it can drastically change the outcome. More than any other item or move. That's a big *** tilt. And in many cases, likely a match deciding one.

 

[Makkers]

FS do win matches if both players are equally skilled because one of them is granted an unfair advantage. And don't give me that "the other shouldn't have let him take it" crap, because random factors can also act in favor of one or the other, factors which you have no power on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzj1bONjYPY&NR=1

Yoshi gets the Smash Ball buff, yet dies.

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15422

Yoshi used his FS and Donkey Kong had the Smash Ball buff. Winner was Metaknight.

Moral of this story? If you see that your opponent has the SB buff or is using their FS, either shut them down quickly or put them in the position where the FS is useless.

 

[Enlong]

Recovery platform invincibility has been shortened from Melee. There's no reason Peach can't dodge for a second or two then use it.


And the edge screen issue is negligible. It's a matter of timing B when you're close enough. Used right, it should be practically unavoidable. And no matter, it's still advantageous - walking onto the screen will sleep you, meaning she'll always get her picking of the health items.

Well, the sleep (again, correct me if I'm wrong) isn't completely instantaneous; there's a short amount of time in which a person can find a way off the -heavily magnified- screen for that time. And unless I'm mistaken, Peach stays in one spot while she sings. Even if she's invulnerable during that time, once the song is done, then all the Final has done is create mutual recovery items. I'm not trying to handwave the move away as underpowered, just saying that it can be avoided if the opponent outplays Peach. The same with every Final Smash.

(quick note. I was wrong. The Peach Paintings don't do a thing, only being in a magnifying glass will let you avoid it, but my point still stands. Someone who outplays Peach can avoid it.)

 

[WoapGang]

agreed
...this discussion should have been over after this post by bentobox on page 2 lol

says u....

Pit and Peach are characters I'm gonna main. That's why I said that. But I never said that other characters couldn't find a way to stay off screen until the time expired. Edge hogging may help. I'm sure people can get a little creative with this. If your a true smasher you'll find a way.

If you really know your way around the field, edgehogging included, you might be right Master Peach

And the use is uber. No, admitedly it's not a sure-fire thing for most characters (some more than others), but it's better than and takes priority over any other item or move. Bigger range, better outcome, etc.

QUOTE]

For those charcater of which the FS is NOT a sure thing they aren't exactly at a disadvantage are they?

 

[Master Peach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzj1bONjYPY&NR=1

Yoshi gets the Smash Ball buff, yet dies.

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15422

Yoshi used his FS and Donkey Kong had the Smash Ball buff. Winner was Metaknight.

Moral of this story? If you see that your opponent has the SB buff or is using their FS, either shut them down quickly or put them in the position where the FS is useless.

*Bows*

Well said. People are too worried about the outcome of what happens after the FS is used. What about before. Can't you do anything to brace yourself, or are you immobile?

 

[Kashakunaki]

Alright, this is getting old...

I don't think I've ever come across someone who hasn't posted something hypocritical about such an ironic topic.

Look, it's a fighting game, it IS unbalanced, the game in and of itself. Tiers? The advantages and disadvantages a certain character has over another. Those are inbalances. Stages? If Shy Guys are here at this moment it'll cause cause some sort of unexpected result on Yoshi's story or if someone's spawning point is in a certain place that gives them an unfair advantage of invincibility frames. Those are inbalances.

You can't have a completely balanced game, at least when it comes to fighters, especially when the game is Smash! Smash is meant to be a chaotic mess (though, I'm not saying it is ment to be unbalanced... don't try to put words in my mouth). Items add to this. I'm pro Smash Ball for professional play. Besides, it is a pretty well balanced, relative to other items, item. You have to work for it, it moves around so that pervents camping, and there is even a strategic element to it.

 

[Crispy4001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzj1bONjYPY&NR=1

Yoshi gets the Smash Ball buff, yet dies.

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15422

Yoshi used his FS and Donkey Kong had the Smash Ball buff. Winner was Metaknight.

Moral of this story? If you see that your opponent has the SB buff or is using their FS, either shut them down quickly or put them in the position where the FS is useless.

First one's a suicide. Which means Yoshi's death was Yoshi's fault. He was advantaged until he killed in himself.

Second one's a free for all, and non-stock timed match. That means whoever gets the most kills and dies the least wins. Most of that comes down to who gets in finishing blow most often. It's a completely different dynamic than stock matches, particularly the 1 vs1's and 2 vs 2's that are tournament norms.

What that means that while we can take for face value how these moves look and perform, looking at the winners of these matches really doesn't say anything about their use in a tournament context.

 

[WoapGang]

*Bows*

Well said. People are too worried about the outcome of what happens after the FS is used. What about before. Can't you do anything to brace yourself, or are you immobile?

Keep the foe airborne....