Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[SmashChu]

Think about this. Samus vs. Fox. Both have 1 stock, though Samus is at 110% while fox is only at 17%. Samus has a charged blast ready, but is getting combo'd with drill kicks, jabs, grabs and other aerials. It seems hopeless for Samus but then she gets in an u-tilt, which sends Fox a short distance off the stage. He's recovering when WHOOM, in comes a Smash Ball! Samus charged blasts it, the screen goes dark and BAM!

So sorry Mew2King but you just got owned; yes it was flukey, and yes it was a gay FS.

Then grab the edge.

 

[BentoBox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzj1bONjYPY&NR=1

Yoshi gets the Smash Ball buff, yet dies.

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15422

Yoshi used his FS and Donkey Kong had the Smash Ball buff. Winner was Metaknight.

Moral of this story? If you see that your opponent has the SB buff or is using their FS, either shut them down quickly or put them in the position where the FS is useless.

The yoshi rolled off the stage... and how exactly do you use a video displaying noobs playing SSBB for the first time in their lives as a valid argument as to how SBs should be allowed in competitive play? And that was a FFA ffs. Guess why there are no FFA based SSB tourneys...

 

[Makkers]

You're not getting it. In a literal sense, you could call any item an extension of a character's moveset. Differences in execution are that you press B instead of A to use it, and you can't throw the Smash Ball. Just like items, when you pick it up, you gain it's benefits and it's use.


And the use is uber. No, admitedly it's not a sure-fire thing for most characters (some more than others), but it's better than and takes priority over any other item or move. Bigger range, better outcome, etc.

When you can KO someone at low percents (58%) with it from the center of the stage (as in Samus' case), it can drastically change the outcome. More than any other item or move. That's a big *** tilt. And in many cases, likely a match deciding one.

The uses may be uber in some cases but they are not immediate. That's yet another huge difference between items and FSs. If you get a tomato or a bat, you can immediately take advantage of those items on the spot. A FS requires a sense of timing and distance to pull off as well as given the chance to actually use the ability (More often than not, I suspect that your opponent will be upping his assault on you if you hold a SB buff).

Also, I doubt that KOing someone with a FS in the center of the stage will be the norm. Smash is simply too hectic for that.

On a side note, I wonder if anybody knows whether or not FSs can be performed more than once in a match?

 

[PIT_IS_BACK]

=O
People wanna turn off smash balls?

>_>
Why dont they just continue playing Melee then in that case? D:

Yes, Final Smashs can be used more then once, in one of the vids, the demo guy used Pits FS Twice against Yoshi

 

[WoapGang]

On a side note, I wonder if anybody knows whether or not FSs can be performed more than once in a match?

Pit's Final Smash was used 2wice in one video

 

[Kashakunaki]

Think about this. Samus vs. Fox. Both have 1 stock, though Samus is at 110% while fox is only at 17%. Samus has a charged blast ready, but is getting combo'd with drill kicks, jabs, grabs and other aerials. It seems hopeless for Samus but then she gets in an u-tilt, which sends Fox a short distance off the stage. He's recovering when WHOOM, in comes a Smash Ball! Samus charged blasts it, the screen goes dark and BAM!

So sorry Mew2King but you just got owned; yes it was flukey, and yes it was a gay FS.

So? Gimps like that happen even without FS.

What's that? Fox was at 150% and you were at 8% with both having one stock and Fox shine spiked you at 8%? I'm sorry to hear that.

Scenarios, scenarios, SCENARIOS! You can make them all day but they don't prove anything, seriously.

 

[Team Giza]

Alright, this is getting old...

I don't think I've ever come across someone who hasn't posted something hypocritical about such an ironic topic.

Look, it's a fighting game, it IS unbalanced, the game in and of itself. Tiers? The advantages and disadvantages a certain character has over another. Those are inbalances. Stages? If Shy Guys are here at this moment it'll cause cause some sort of unexpected result on Yoshi's story or if someone's spawning point is in a certain place that gives them an unfair advantage of invincibility frames. Those are inbalances.

You can't have a completely balanced game, at least when it comes to fighters, especially when the game is Smash! Smash is meant to be a chaotic mess (though, I'm not saying it is ment to be unbalanced... don't try to put words in my mouth). Items add to this. I'm pro Smash Ball for professional play. Besides, it is a pretty well balanced, relative to other items, item. You have to work for it, it moves around so that pervents camping, and there is even a strategic element to it.

Sounds about right. I think a lot of people are missing the strategic element because people are trying to make tournament brawl just like tournament melee even though we don't even a complete idea of how everything works yet. Smash ball definitely has tournament potential because of what Kashakunaki has stated and we shouldn't just throw it out right away just because it was a few things in common with items. Smash ball has a lot of differences too... differences that would make it possible to use in tournaments.

 

[BentoBox]

=O
People wanna turn off smash balls?

>_>
Why dont they just continue playing Melee then in that case? D:

Yes, Final Smashs can be used more then once, in one of the vids, the demo guy used Pits FS Twice against Yoshi

Why don't you just step out of the competitive scene? If you don't like the way its ran, why do you insist on forcing your way in?

 

[Master Peach]

Keep the foe airborne....

I think the smash can be activated in the air. Though I'm not sure. Has anyone seen the Smash ball Activated in the air?

If the SB can't be activated in the sky, then juggling will prove to be effective. Hopefully the SB can't be activated in the air.

 

[Makkers]

The yoshi rolled off the stage... and how exactly do you use a video displaying noobs playing SSBB for the first time in their lives as a valid argument as to how SBs should be allowed in competitive play? And that was a FFA ffs. Guess why there are no FFA based SSB tourneys...

You're missing the point completely. 1v1 matches are even more restrictive than FFAs since, guess what, you're the only other guy when playing against someone. I believe that you will find more situations like the DK example in 1v1 tournaments where someone will have the buff but simply can't stop and use it since they are:

A.) Too busy staying alive or...
B.) Too busy fighting.

The only times where I can see using a FS being practical are when your opponent respawns after losing a stock or when they are trying to recover after getting knocked of the stage. In that case, it's no different than when you get hit by a fully charged beam from Samus when you're almost dead anyways.

 

[Makkers]

Pit's Final Smash was used 2wice in one video

KK. Wasn't sure, which is why I asked.

This would be less of an issue if Brawl gives players the option to adjust the amount of times you can use a Final Smash per match.

 

[Crispy4001]

Smash is meant to be a chaotic mess (though, I'm not saying it is ment to be unbalanced... don't try to put words in my mouth). Items add to this. I'm pro Smash Ball for professional play. Besides, it is a pretty well balanced, relative to other items, item. You have to work for it, it moves around so that pervents camping, and there is even a strategic element to it.

Who says Smash is supposed to be a chaotic mess? If they intended it only to be played that way, they wouldn't let you turn items off (... organized chaos )


Also not in agreement with you about the balance. You get a trade-off. Take Peach again. Picking up a Maximum tomato would recover most of her health. The Smash ball is harder to get at, but once she does, she can recover lots of health and sleep her opponents.

Final Smashes are essentially super items. That means more split second, out of the blue comebacks. For someone who picks up two or three of them in a match (they'll obviously show up at a higher percent than a specific items such as a home run bat), their chances of winning that match are considerably higher.

As someone who thinks some items can create luck and screw-over outcomes, I can't see how more of that can equate to better balance. More large-scale turnovers means the fighting itself matters for less.

 

[Vortok]

Hypothetical situation:

I was playing this FPS game, and winning by a few kills.

But then the guy spawned right next to the Rocket Launcher, killed me several times with it because I never spawned close to any good weapons before he got to me, and he went on to win the match.

That FPS game is thus stupid and luck-based, and should never be considered seriously for competitions.



Yeah... that's the scenario I hear in my head when people whine about items being random. It sounds just plain ridiculous, especially considering that FPS games are used in major competitions.

Having items off definately changes the flow of the game, and makes it less hectic and easier to focus... but that doesn't mean much. I haven't played enough against skilled people with items on because nobody will even give them a chance anymore (they'll stop and reset, instead of going through the match and turning items off after). As such, I don't have enough chances to get used to them and find good ways to counter them.

I honestly don't care if items are on or off in tourneys (though how it spills over into casual play gets annoying at times), but some of the "reasons" people give just sound dumb - on both sides.

FS certainly look bannable, but there's absolutely no knowing for sure until we've had a chance to test them out extensively, which means waiting for the game to come out. Watching videos of noobs doesn't count. Even experienced Smashers from here playing at E for All won't count, as they won't have the time to fully explore the possiblities and possible new ways to avoid stuff. It won't be settled until after we actually have the game.

 

[PIT_IS_BACK]

Heres the vid for everyone

Vid

6:08
and
6:47

Pits FS is used twice

and at Bentobox, I never was or will be in the competitive scene Id prefer having as much fun as i can playing a game. Silly tourny rules.

 

[Makkers]

Why don't you just step out of the competitive scene? If you don't like the way its ran, why do you insist on forcing your way in?

I'm sorry, I didn't know Brawl tournament rulesets were already in place. I must have missed the memo.

 

[BentoBox]

You're missing the point completely. 1v1 matches are even more restrictive than FFAs since, guess what, you're the only other guy when playing against someone. I believe that you will find more situations like the DK example in 1v1 tournaments where someone will have the buff but simply can't stop and use it since they are:

A.) Too busy staying alive or...
B.) Too busy fighting.

The only times where I can see using a FS being practical are when your opponent respawns after losing a stock or when they are trying to recover after getting knocked of the stage. In that case, it's no different than when you get hit by a fully charged beam from Samus when you're almost dead anyways.

Have you watched many fights where neither of the players had any window to press a single button due to the fact that they were constantly being pressured? Link. You are so naive. Not every FS will require careful positioning and not every FS will be as slow as Samus'.

I'm sorry, I didn't know Brawl tournament rulesets were already in place. I must have missed the memo.

Ppl have been whining about the same things on SSBM, things haven't changed.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Sounds about right. I think a lot of people are missing the strategic element because people are trying to make tournament brawl just like tournament melee even though we don't even a complete idea of how everything works yet. Smash ball definitely has tournament potential because of what Kashakunaki has stated and we shouldn't just throw it out right away just because it was a few things in common with items. Smash ball has a lot of differences too... differences that would make it possible to use in tournaments.

More or less, yes.

On that note, the tournament scene in Melee compared to the tournament scene in Super Smash Bros. is pretty different, so who knows how the tournament scene will turn out to be in Brawl. Don't be afraid to at least try things, people...

I think the smash can be activated in the air. Though I'm not sure. Has anyone seen the Smash ball Activated in the air?

If the SB can't be activated in the sky, then juggling will prove to be effective. Hopefully the SB can't be activated in the air.

I don't think it can, I really don't, and I haven't seen it activated in the air either.

Who says Smash is supposed to be a chaotic mess? If they intended it only to be played that way, they wouldn't let you turn items off (... organized chaos )

Are you kidding man? I guess this is a joke. Just about every editor that has wrote something about Smash, every article I've read about Smash, and just the style of the game in general says or points to it being like that. It's a tangeled web of Nintendo's All Stars, stages, items, etc. There is one very important thing hardcore Smash players over look when thinking about Brawl... Smash isn't a competitive game. Sakurai isn't making the game with "the tournament scene" in mind. He's making a fighting game to be loved and enjoyed by all. It is the gamers who turn it into a competitive game.

When people say something like, "Why doesn't Sakurai even bother putting items in? We don't use them in tournaments anyways," it really gets to me because to me that is just ignorant. It's not just about tournament play, people, and competitive gamers aren't the only ones going to play this game. Get your head out of the gutter.

Also not in agreement with you about the balance. You get a trade-off. Take Peach again. Picking up a Maximum tomato would recover most of her health. The Smash ball is harder to get at, but once she does, she can recover lots of health and sleep her opponents.

You want to rephrase that because that example didn't even make sense to me. Though, I'll say, once again, just another scenario made up... scenarios scenarios scenarios... they're getting old and they don't prove anything.

Final Smashes are essentially super items. That means more split second, out of the blue comebacks. For someone who picks up two or three of them in a match (they'll obviously show up at a higher percent than a single standard item), their chances of winning that match are considerably higher.

They are another item like the rest. Saying they will "obviously show up at a higher percent" is just ignorant and without foundation. Of course if they are the only item on they'll appear more, but whos to say it won't be picked out randomly among the selected items like always? That's just foolish. And comebacks happen.

As someone who thinks some items can create some luck and screw-over outcomes, I can't see how more of that can equate to better balance. More large-scale turnovers means the actual fighting itself matters for less.

Items are part of the actual fighting. Why wouldn't they be?

 

[slartibartfast42]

Definitely not. Some characters have really crappy and avoidable Smash attacks, while others are just pure ownage. Not to mention the fact that some are really only good with more than 2 players, while others go absolutely insane on one character.

Seeing as how in serious play the most amount of characters you'll be fighting against is 2, many FS's would not be very useful, and various characters would have a huge edge.

I still think that they should be banned. However, I thought of something really interesting. What if a smash ball appears next to you if you perform a certain feat, like getting the crowd to cheer for you. That would be awesome and would make it skill to get your final smash.

I am not seeing how this whole "some FS's are for crowd clearing and some are for one person, some characters get the edge." How is that different from any move on any character? all characters have better moves for crowd clearing and otherwise, fox gets an edge from shine, etc. All characters will have advantages and disadvantages by what moves they have, final smashes are no different.

I hope that Final smashes aren't in tournaments, unless you have to do something that involves skill to get them to spawn.

 

[Makkers]

Have you watched many fights where neither of the players had any window to press a single button due to the fact that they were constantly being pressured? Link. You are so naive. Not every FS will require careful positioning and not every FS will be as slow as Samus'.

Not every FS will just require a single press of a button to get it's advantages.

See? I can play that game with you as well.

Ppl have been whining about the same things on SSBM, things haven't changed.

Really? I never knew Final Smashes were in Melee. I should really boot up my copy and look deeper.

 

[BentoBox]

scenarios scenarios scenarios... they're getting old and they don't prove anything.

Yet, its because of these scenarios that several maps, items and techniques and banned from tourneys. You can't escape it.

 

[GhostAnime]

So? Gimps like that happen even without FS.

What's that? Fox was at 150% and you were at 8% with both having one stock and Fox shine spiked you at 8%? I'm sorry to hear that.

Scenarios, scenarios, SCENARIOS! You can make them all day but they don't prove anything, seriously.

um.. shinespiking is part of Fox's character. therefore, it can't be comparable to smash balls. Fox shinespiking you is part of the Fox player's skill, afterall.

 

[Makkers]

um.. shinespiking is part of Fox's character. therefore, it can't be comparable to smash balls. Fox shinespiking you is part of the Fox player's skill, afterall.

His tank is part of his character as well since it's unique only to him.

How the tank is used when spawned is also based on the player's ability to determine when it's the proper time to use it and how to use it.

 

[BentoBox]

And the way he gets ahold of this power is not controlled. Thus why SBs will be banned from tourneys.

 

[fr0st2k]

Why does everyone think that FS's are so awesome? They are just supped up special attacks, and any pro will tell you, special attacks are essentially worthless (except for reflects of course).

I saw in one of the vids, a lvl3 yoshi dodge EVERY SINGLE centurian in Pits FS. a LVL3!!!!

if you people are worse than a lvl 3, then you have no place in competitive place.

Samus's FS for example; very eash to dodge. Has a charge up time (camera zoom) and fires horizontally. You can get behind Samus to avoid it, and you can jump.

Diddy's: If Diddy is aiming at you, you know it..and you jump out of the way. Easy

Lniks: A one shot laser beam at you. Simple to dodge.

Marios: Havent seen it in footage, but im assuming the damage it does isnt much, either that, or the smash value is low. You can also be behind him.

Sonics: Hard to control as SS, easy to dodge.



You guys are acting like these smashes are instant KO's. THEY ARENT. My goodness.

 

[Kashakunaki]

um.. shinespiking is part of Fox's character. therefore, it can't be comparable to smash balls. Fox shinespiking you is part of the Fox player's skill, afterall.

For starters, no it's not, second of all, what's your point?

You don't have to be skilled to shine spike someone or skilled to forward smash someone. There's no difference. It's a simple button combination. Besides, it was an example, I could've picked any character: Marth, Kirby, Dr. Mario. You name it. You are missing MY point. Gimps happen, things are cheap, and that's without items, so the fact that everyone complains that items are cheap and shouldn't be used is ironic and hypocritical. Just complain that the game is cheap in that case..

EDIT: I'd also like to agree with fr0st2k, to a certain extent.

FS =/= Instant Win

 

[Makkers]

And the way he gets ahold of this power is not controlled. Thus why SBs will be banned from tourneys.

What?

Of course it's controlled. Do you think the opponent is going to sit with his hands crossed while his opponent gets his tank on? It's not like he's getting it without taking any action whatsoever.

As for what will be banned from tournaments, who the hell knows.

 

[Kashakunaki]

ROFL! While he gets his tank on... XD

Priceless.

 

[BentoBox]

"Things are already cheap, why not make it worse!"

 

[Rapidashlover82]

Why does everyone think that FS's are so awesome? They are just supped up special attacks, and any pro will tell you, special attacks are essentially worthless (except for reflects of course).

I saw in one of the vids, a lvl3 yoshi dodge EVERY SINGLE centurian in Pits FS. a LVL3!!!!

if you people are worse than a lvl 3, then you have no place in competitive place.

Samus's FS for example; very eash to dodge. Has a charge up time (camera zoom) and fires horizontally. You can get behind Samus to avoid it, and you can jump.

Diddy's: If Diddy is aiming at you, you know it..and you jump out of the way. Easy

Lniks: A one shot laser beam at you. Simple to dodge.

Marios: Havent seen it in footage, but im assuming the damage it does isnt much, either that, or the smash value is low. You can also be behind him.

Sonics: Hard to control as SS, easy to dodge.

You guys are acting like these smashes are instant KO's. THEY ARENT. My goodness.

What do you mean by Link'ss being a one shot laser at you, Link's is where he traps someone in a triforce and starts slashing away at them, kind of hard to dodge when your in the triforce.

And with Samus' and Mario's the point is to stand on the edge of the stage so no one is behind you, and then you use your FS.

 

[GhostAnime]

For starters, no it's not, second of all, what's your point?

You don't have to be skilled to shine spike someone or skilled to forward smash someone. There's no difference. It's a simple button combination. Besides, it was an example, I could've picked any character: Marth, Kirby, Dr. Mario. You name it. You are missing MY point. Gimps happen, things are cheap, and that's without items, so the fact that everyone complains that items are cheap and shouldn't be used is ironic and hypocritical. Just complain that the game is cheap in that case..

yes, you do have to be skilled to shinespike. once someone gets used to it, you'll have to incorporate mind games.

smash balls just aren't comparable to a character's regular attacks. one's innate and the other's completely based on hitting a random floating ball. the face of it just sounds.. silly.

lastly, it's not hypocritical. the character's attacks are part of that character. that smash ball isn't if the other character has a chance of getting it. it just makes it more equal if you remove it completely.

 

[Kashakunaki]

I believe that's exactly what he was talking about... if you dodge the Triforce shot at you, you aren't caught in Link's Omnislash.

yes, you do have to be skilled to shinespike. once someone gets used to it, you'll have to incorporate mind games.

smash balls just aren't comparable to a character's regular attacks. one's innate and the other's completely based on hitting a random floating ball. the face of it just sounds.. silly.

lastly, it's not hypocritical. the character's attacks are part of that character. that smash ball isn't if the other character has a chance of getting it. it just makes it more equal if you remove it completely.

You're still missing my point... fine.

Allow me to use a different example: Marth. Are you gonna tell me it takes skill to forward smash? No. It can result in just as simple and easy gimp kills.

My point is that, yes, while Final Smashes have gimp potential, that doesn't mean they are always thus, and that doesn't mean gimps aren't already in place.

This is just so stupid argueing! It's like repeating the same five things over and over.

EDIT: And just because I'm steamed up, I'm going to use your own logic against you.

Dr. Mario's cape... capable of a good 12% kill and easy to use, you have to press two buttons.

Fox's shine... capable of a good 12% kill and difficult to use, you have to press two buttons.

They both result in the same gimp, just one with more effort than the other. It's the same with Final Smashes relative to the normal Smash universe. I rest my case.

 

[brawlpro]

smash ball will NOT be in tourney matches!

 

[BentoBox]

What?

Of course it's controlled. Do you think the opponent is going to sit with his hands crossed while his opponent gets his tank on? It's not like he's getting it without taking any action whatsoever.

As for what will be banned from tournaments, who the hell knows.

What can the opponent do if the Smashball spawns right when he gets knocked off the stage? NOTHING. Don't tell me its his fault for dying because there were never any matches going on without stocks being lost at some point. And as for what will be banned from tourneys, I am simply applying the logic and the reasoning behind the state of the current tournament scene. Why do you think that things are going to change (because as of now, items ARE banned from tourneys) simply because said items now grant characters special powers that are part of them? Do you seriously think it'll change anything to whoever it is that established these rules in the first place? I don't. They've strived to remove every random aspect out of the tournament universe, how exactly do you plan on convincing them to do otherwise from now on?

 

[Crispy4001]

Are you kidding man? I guess this is a joke. Just about every editor that has wrote something about Smash, every article I've read about Smash, and just the style of the game in general says or points to it being like that. It's a tangeled web of Nintendo's All Stars, stages, items, etc. There is one very important thing hardcore Smash players over look when thinking about Brawl... Smash isn't a competitive game. Sakurai isn't making the game with "the tournament scene" in mind. He's making a fighting game to be loved and enjoyed by all. It is the gamers who turn it into a competitive game.

When people say something like, "Why doesn't Sakurai even bother putting items in? We don't use them in tournaments anyways," it really gets to me because to me that is just ignorant. It's not just about tournament play, people, and competitive gamers aren't the only ones going to play this game. Get your head out of the gutter.

You want to rephrase that because that example didn't even make sense to me. Though, I'll say, once again, just another scenario made up... scenarios scenarios scenarios... they're getting old and they don't prove anything.

They are another item like the rest. Saying they will "obviously show up at a higher percent" is just ignorant and without foundation. Of course if they are the only item on they'll appear more, but whos to say it won't be picked out randomly among the selected items like always? That's just foolish. And comebacks happen.

Items are part of the actual fighting. Why wouldn't they be?

I've always been of the mindset that Smsah is meant to be customizable. You're supposed to play it however you want. Sure, the game forces you to in a particular way for the single player (because that's how they chose to balance it in single player), but they give you flexibility in multiplayer for a reason. They themselves don't want to force you to play a way they perscribe as 'fun to them' or 'we think this is good for single player, might be good for multiplayer'.

You can't say one way to play the game is more correct than another. What gets me is the item players that insist that items are how the game is ment to be played, but who turn off heart containers/max tomatoes/stars/etc and set items to low/very-high/etc. It's ironic that those who are so sure they're playing it the way it's meant to be can't even be consistant.



Back to the Final Smashes, I wasn't making up a hypothetical. Just comparing a Maximum Tomato to Peach's FS. Saying that her FS takes more effort to get, but the pay-off is greater.

You're right that about me guessing that final smashes will show up more frequently than other items. I'll conceed to that. Will say, however, that comebacks due to items never happened to the same extent in Melee. You couldn't KO someone with an item on 58% from the center of a stage like Samus' did.


Making Final Smashes so powerful does mean that the fighting itself matters for less. What would take a few good hits can be accomplished in one foul swoop with most character's FSs.

And yes, that 'fighting' includes non-Smash Ball items, if you'd like to look at it that way. It'll all matter for less in the long term with Final Smashes showing up once or twice every 2 minutes.

 

[GhostAnime]

it's not hard to f-smash with Marth; the skill is knowing WHEN to use it. if you use it foolishly, you will only be punished through its lag.

 

[Makkers]

smash ball will NOT be in tourney matches!

And there you have it.

 

[Team Giza]

smash ball will NOT be in tourney matches!

Smash ball be in tourney matches! [/counter]

Or they will at least be in some. I will tell you that right now.

 

[Kashakunaki]

I've always been of the mindset that Smsah is meant to be customizable. You're supposed to play it however you want. Sure, the game forces you to in a particular way for the single player (because that's how they chose to balance it in single player), but they give you flexibility in multiplayer for a reason. They themselves don't want to force you to play a way they perscribe as 'fun to them' or 'we think this is good for single player, might be good for multiplayer'.

Agreed, but doesn't that work both ways, too?

You can't say one way to play the game is more correct than another. What gets me is the item players that insist that items are how the game is ment to be played, but who turn off heart containers/max tomatoes/stars/etc and set items to low/very-high/etc. It's ironic that those who are so sure that turning items all off is 'playing wrong' can't even agree on what items to keep on.

Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as playing wrong... its preference, and I don't play with items anyways... guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Back to the Final Smashes, I wasn't making up a hypothetical. Just comparing a Maximum Tomato to Peach's FS. Saying that her FS takes more effort to get, but the pay-off is greater.

I see.

You're right about me guessing that final smashes will show up more frequently than other items. I'll conceed to that. Will say, however, that comebacks due to items seldom ever happened in the same manner that items did in Melee. You couldn't KO someone with an item on 58% from the center of a stage like Samus' did.

Thank you, and sorry for being somewhat of an *** about it. You have a point, but let me point this out... when Samus does her Final Smash against... ugh, who was it... not Sonic... Mario! When Samus does her Final Smash against Mario it is a direct hit, does 44% and doesn't kill him... guess what? That is HALF the damage that a good Peach's Dsmash in Melee would do. What's that say to you?

Making Final Smashes so powerful does mean that the fighting itself matters for less. What would take a few good hits can be accomplished in one foul swoop with most character's FSs.

Final Smashes are part of the fight. It's just another factor in the overall combat.

And yes, that 'fighting' includes non-Smash Ball items, if you'd like to look at it that way. It'll all matter for less in the long term with Final Smashes showing up once or twice every 2 minutes.

Well, I'm sure you can control the frequency of them... I mean, afterall, it is a DEMO and they were 2 minute matches with no control over item frequency.

it's not hard to f-smash with Marth; the skill is knowing WHEN to use it. if you use it foolishly, you will only be punished through its lag.

You talk to me like I don't know how to play Melee, and, guess what, yep... your own logic boomeranging you back in the face once more:

If you use a Final Smash in that same manner it too will become worthless and punishable. You have to know when to use it, too. *sigh*

 

[Makkers]

What can the opponent do if the Smashball spawns right when he gets knocked off the stage? NOTHING. Don't tell me its his fault for dying because there were never any matches going on without stocks being lost at some point. And as for what will be banned from tourneys, I am simply applying the logic and the reasoning behind the state of the current tournament scene. Why do you think that things are going to change (because as of now, items ARE banned from tourneys) simply because said items now grant characters special powers that are part of them? Do you seriously think it'll change anything to whoever it is that established these rules in the first place? I don't. They've strived to remove every random aspect out of the tournament universe, how exactly do you plan on convincing them to do otherwise from now on?

Who the hell said I'm trying to convince people to change how Brawl tournaments are ran? I'm simply presenting my views on the FS issue. When I stated "Who the hell knows what will be in tournament rulesets?", I'm stating that not because I have some hope FSs will be allowed but because THERE'S NO TANGIBLE RULESET PRESENTED NOR A STATEMENT WHERE IT SAID X IS BANNED!!! For god's sake, man, use some common sense.

Now that it's official, oh well. The only thing I can say is that they should seriously wait for the game's release and test it out first hand. Aside from that, no sweat off my back.

 

[BentoBox]

I believe that's exactly what he was talking about... if you dodge the Triforce shot at you, you aren't caught in Link's Omnislash.



You're still missing my point... fine.

Allow me to use a different example: Marth. Are you gonna tell me it takes skill to forward smash? No. It can result in just as simple and easy gimp kills.

My point is that, yes, while Final Smashes have gimp potential, that doesn't mean they are always thus, and that doesn't mean gimps aren't already in place.

This is just so stupid argueing! It's like repeating the same five things over and over.

EDIT: And just because I'm steamed up, I'm going to use your own logic against you.

Dr. Mario's cape... capable of a good 12% kill and easy to use, you have to press two buttons.

Fox's shine... capable of a good 12% kill and difficult to use, you have to press two buttons.

They both result in the same gimp, just one with more effort than the other. It's the same with Final Smashes relative to the normal Smash universe. I rest my case.

Have you ever watched a match where both players successfully dodged each and every attack being thrown at them? I haven't. Did you ever think about the fact that FS could be implemented in combos? It does take skill to combo someone 0->death in SSBM. And I'd be fine with my arse getting owned in such a way because that would be the display of my opponent's hard work. I don't believe I'll ever be able to see things the same way when the same results can be achieved by the press of a single button and good timing.

Who the hell said I'm trying to convince people to change how Brawl tournaments are ran? I'm simply presenting my views on the FS issue. When I stated "Who the hell knows what will be in tournament rulesets?", I'm stating that not because I have some hope FSs will be allowed but because THERE'S NO TANGIBLE RULESET PRESENTED NOR A STATEMENT WHERE IT SAID X IS BANNED!!! For god's sake, man, use some common sense.

Now that it's official, oh well. The only thing I can say is that they should seriously wait for the game's release and test it out first hand. Aside from that, no sweat off my back.

Isn't it common sense to you to use already established facts in order to evaluate new situations? Items are banned because random factors are bad. I claimed SBs will be banned because of the same reason. Looks like I was right. Now how bout you try and think about why exactly it's going to be banned?