Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Jack Kieser]

I'd be 100% confident in firing my lawyer and hiring jack to represent me in court anytime.

I actually want to take law courses sometime after I finish my philosophy degree, so this is extremely meaningful to me. Thanks, man. ^_^

 

[theunabletable]

That's because you aren't paying attention. Take it from a TO that's worked multiple 200+ tournaments and a few 50-100+ tournament and actually talked to people that aren't "uber-leet" pros: I can't even count how many people entered one of our tournaments, played noob Meta's that still one due to gay stuff, and decided to quit, forever losing the tournament's money. You don't see it because you don't pay attention like a TO does.

It does happen, sure. But that happens in a LOT of games that are still popular.

I'll give an example.

In WoW since it's constantly updated some classes become overpowered or too weak at times, it shifts constantly. For the first 8 months or so of Wrath of the Lich King like 50% of all representation was held by Unholy DKs, and Holy Paladins (who would usually team with each other in 2v2 teams; because it was overpowered as hell at the time).

You'd get lots of people complaining constantly about it and threatening to quit (and I'm sure some did).

Look how well that game is doing still.

And, what? With the kind of money on the line as Brawl tournaments can pull, pros won't be leaving; they'll just play someone else. And low- and mid-level players want MK gone (for the most part), so they won't be leaving; they'll just play the people they've wanted to play all along.

I haven't seen signs of this happening yet (except for SOME of the people who do quit (which can happen in any game with a dominant character/class)).

Good for you. A ) are you low-level? B ) does the majority of low-level players do what you can? So you have a singular anecdotal story as evidence... hooray. Debate doesn't work like that, chief. Until we start seeing lots of low-level players consistently CG'ing with the IC's, it's not a low-level move.

A) I guess it depends on what you'd call low level. Right now I'm more mid-ish, but I was able to 0-death most of the cast at the first tournament I went to, and I was NOT any good at anything else at the time. B) Almost anyone can. It's not hard, it just requires practice. Muscle memory. Any low level player can learn to CG if they feel like spending time learning it.

Sure I have only one story of a crappy *** player being able to 0-death, but the CG is nothing more than muscle memory that just requires mindless practice. ANYONE can do it. Hell I've taught a few of my non-competetive friends to CG a bunch of the characters with ICs.

 

[Marcbri]

lol at random people thinking they'll win tournaments if mk is gone

ADHD is beating the mks, instead of complaining get better and beat them as well -_-

 

[Allied]

i have a level 80 paladin :3

 

[Jack Kieser]

lol at random people thinking they'll win tournaments if mk is gone

ADHD is beating the mks, instead of complaining get better and beat them as well -_-

I don't think anybody who doesn't make it out of pools now honestly believes that a MK-less game is all it takes for them to break out and start taking large tournaments. I think a big problem is that high-level players don't understand that if people at lower levels don't feel like they have a legit shot against people of similar skill level, they quit. It really doesn't even have to do with having fun; people just want to feel like effort will pay off. For instance, people obviously wouldn't want to invest 15$ into a tournament and lose to a bad Bob-Omb spawn because it makes them feel like their efforts have no effect on the outcome; those same people have a hard time believing that people feel that same way with MK? People at lower levels honestly feel like no matter how well you do with another character, your skill won't play a role in the fight against MK, and (to an extent) they have a point.

Like I said, we can't go changing everything just to make Link or Ganon viable characters, but there comes a point when even MK is at risk because we're laying the foundation to kill off our own game in the future (maybe 1-2 years down the road, 3 tops). People can't keep sinking money into these tournaments forever; eventually, people run out and stop coming. And they sure as hell won't keep feeding Smash money if they feel like there's no point. Especially in a depression (obviously, US only). After all, how much money did Smash bring in last year? I remember reading a post by AlphaZealot (I think) that said 2008 Smash brought in some crazy amount of cash, like in the 6 digits. That is not something we can expect to be self-sustaining in the long run with these kinds of problems running about.

 

[Allied]

I don't think anybody who doesn't make it out of pools now honestly believes that a MK-less game is all it takes for them to break out and start taking large tournaments. I think a big problem is that high-level players don't understand that if people at lower levels don't feel like they have a legit shot against people of similar skill level, they quit. It really doesn't even have to do with having fun; people just want to feel like effort will pay off. For instance, people obviously wouldn't want to invest 15$ into a tournament and lose to a bad Bob-Omb spawn because it makes them feel like their efforts have no effect on the outcome; those same people have a hard time believing that people feel that same way with MK? People at lower levels honestly feel like no matter how well you do with another character, your skill won't play a role in the fight against MK, and (to an extent) they have a point.

Like I said, we can't go changing everything just to make Link or Ganon viable characters, but there comes a point when even MK is at risk because we're laying the foundation to kill off our own game in the future (maybe 1-2 years down the road, 3 tops). People can't keep sinking money into these tournaments forever; eventually, people run out and stop coming. And they sure as hell won't keep feeding Smash money if they feel like there's no point. Especially in a depression (obviously, US only).

Yo when i first started this game i thought snake was broken >.> ftilt and utilt was so gay until i mastered that matchup XD

 

[Kuraudo]

A lot of people know the Meta Knight match-up more than they know most other characters in the cast. Due to his excessive use competitively.

Just saying.

 

[KribO]

I do not believe a character should be banned because of their game play. however, i think some closer moderation on games should be taken to try to prevent consistent planking and the like.

At the same time tho, ssbb is a game. if you can manage a livable wage on it, good for you, but for almost the whole smash population, its a hobby. if your biggest grief in life is a certain character in a certain game beating you, then please tell me how you've managed to steer clear of disease, starvation, and other serious problems facing the world.

 

[Allied]

Krib0 laying it out

 

[Big-Cat]

I do not believe a character should be banned because of their game play. however, i think some closer moderation on games should be taken to try to prevent consistent planking and the like.

At the same time tho, ssbb is a game. if you can manage a livable wage on it, good for you, but for almost the whole smash population, its a hobby. if your biggest grief in life is a certain character in a certain game beating you, then please tell me how you've managed to steer clear of disease, starvation, and other serious problems facing the world.

Are you saying that balancing should've done something to fix this? In that case, I strongly agree. At the very least, there should've been a edge grab limit like there is for the tether grabs built in.

 

[B.A.M.]

*sigh* Jack, first off I commend you for attempting to fight for the community as a whole. However this is how the competitive scene works. Honestly, I dont think the problem with the community is really MK. He is definitely good, but there are effective strategies vs him. Strategies that dont take the massive amount of skill that divides pro players and the average tournament go-er ( i wouldnt even really call them competitive players for the most part.) The problem with this community I believe is actually the censorship of information. Alot of players here dont have a clue how to play this game or any competitive fighting game, and just complain about metaknight because hes a very easy target. The other players who come to actually learn simple strats versus metaknight hide them in the burrows of the SBR or among themselves. Which is saddening because I do believe that if more solid information was compiled people would come to learn that the Metaknight matchup isnt as hard as they would like to believe. I believe the pros need to care for the lower-end of the community. Infact Wyatt (ADHD) actually made a thread speaking of how to deal with nado, one of the few threads on dealing with the match up from a top pro. This in my opinion is how we help the community. Not by banning Metaknight, because that really doesnt save fighting game communities.

Also people need to realize this is brawl, not Tekken 4. Tekken 4 Jin setup was basically game once it made contact. That is not the case in this game. The community should begin to assimilate tutorials or videos on how to combat metaknight; id rather that than simply banning metaknight because itll make the community better for it. Appeasing the community like that is dumb as far as I am concerned because honestly Jack you can say 'o i dont have the inherent talent.' One can understand that, but you can not state that you dont have enough time to invest in the game as your defense for failing vs metaknight. Thats just ridiculous. How can anyone help you with that? That you could say that vs any top tier character in any fighting game. I am a firm believer that most people believe they know the Meta matchup havent the slightest clue.

For example, on the Sonic boards alot of people have problems vs shuttle loop and punishing glide attack. Funnily enough around this game's release a Sonic player by the name of Tenki posted that Sonic can simply fair through metaknights glide attack. Not only that, Sonic can also fair right through metaknights drill rush. Now these tactics aid Sonics alot; it gives sonic an opening and sonic being one of the greatest characters of following up within the game can take great advantage of that simple tactic. A tactic that people never even used until recently. A tactic that doesnt require a gargantuan amount of inherent talent to pull off. People simply didnt know.

Theres tons of techs that people have know for awhile now that would aid a said character in the myriad of their respective matchups. Sadly people keep it hidden, and thus noone knows and people get fustrated. Pros need to learn in this community that for the most part, you have to spoon feed the lower levels. Unfortunate, yes, but a necessity. And im sorry for people who think that nado and dsmash anniliates alone. Because they dont; not at all. Alot of our community wants the easy way out. I say we come together; have pros more active on the PUBLIC boards and all get better. Try out things see what works and go from there. Because when you have people shocked about pivot grabbing, shield grabbing and powershield grabbing nado at this stage of the game. You have a problem. And it sure as hell aint Meta.

 

[KribO]

that is exactly what I'm saying. edge grabbing, chain grabbing, the like. it seems people get so bent on winning, they find any abuseable tactic to rack up damage just to see their character do a little dance at the end of the match

 

[zeldspazz]

How to get rid of planking:

[insert number] ledge grab limit
If at the end of the match it is over that, the player loses.
Be sure to check, it takes 2 seconds (I believe there is a counter at the results screen?)
Be honest.

No need to moderate the game, how about people just be honest about checking it and accepting defeat.

Please tell me why that wouldnt work if planking is the issue with MK. Please, Im interesed.

 

[Allied]

planking isn't the issue silly

timing people out is the issue and theres numerous different ways demonstrated that doesn't involve planking

Ksizzle timed out Dekar with 13 grabs on the ledge

 

[zeldspazz]

One of the ways people get timed out is by planking, no?

Its just one problem however, but still an answer.

How did Ksizzle time him out?

 

[Allied]

One of the ways people get timed out is by planking, no?

Its just one problem however, but still an answer.

How did Ksizzle time him out?

he ran away XD planking isn't a problem its just brawl's defensive nature

think about it you have better options when you let them attack you instead of you attacking them

Especially if you have projectiles why should you approach? XD

 

[RDK]

The first MK ban Poll was in October '08 I believe. One of the main arguments was that MK would destroy the Brawl scene sooner or later and that people would quit because of him. More than a year later the biggest smash tournament ever takes place, a Diddy Kong wins it and people still say he destroys the Brawl scene?

Kill yourselves, pro-banners.

Thread should have ended here.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well yes Im aware of Brawl's defensive nature. In this game approaching usually puts you at a disadvantage.

So, if planking isnt the problem, why am I hearing about it so much as I lurk this thread.

If the problem is the nature of the entire game why the **** are we arguing something that cant be changed by banning 1 character.

Wario, anyone?

 

[Allied]

sticky dat quote!

edit: well the game encourages campy gameplay XD people dont like that

they get flustered, dont know what to blame so they pick the best character !

and try to ban him

yup

 

[zeldspazz]

I agree. Good **** Gheb >_>

 

[salaboB]

The first MK ban Poll was in October '08 I believe. One of the main arguments was that MK would destroy the Brawl scene sooner or later and that people would quit because of him. More than a year later the biggest smash tournament ever takes place, a Diddy Kong wins it and people still say he destroys the Brawl scene?

Kill yourselves, pro-banners.

While it is good that it didn't kill competitive brawl immediately (Though I don't know many intelligent pro-bans who said it would do its damage that fast...)

1) Diddy winning needs to be done by more people and have it happen more than once to demonstrate anything significant.
2) People have quit because of MK, and more are likely to because of how much not fun it is to fight against him.

So um...diaf?

 

[Allied]

While it is good that it didn't kill competitive brawl immediately (Though I don't know many intelligent pro-bans who said it would do its damage that fast...)

1) Diddy winning needs to be done by more people and more repeatedly.
2) People have quit because of MK, and more are likely to.

So um...diaf?

Do you know how many people quit because of melee shiek
Or SFturbo Akuma
Or SF4 Sagat
or MvC2 cable combos
or world of warcraft druids
or smash 64 pikachu
etc

and yeah snakes are winning tournaments too and thats JUS da start

soon kirbehs

 

[Jack Kieser]

Man, syonryoken, wall of text. Guess I can't really complain, though.

*sigh* Jack, first off I commend you for attempting to fight for the community as a whole. However this is how the competitive scene works.

Thanks, ^_^. I think it's a bit disingenuous, however, to assert that I don't know how the competitive community works. I've been playing Smash competitively since 2006, Brawl competitively since it came out (even though I'm trash at execution...), and hosted tournaments since mid-2008. I know exactly how the competitive community works.

Honestly, I dont think the problem with the community is really MK. He is definitely good, but there are effective strategies vs him. Strategies that dont take the massive amount of skill that divides pro players and the average tournament go-er ( i wouldnt even really call them competitive players for the most part.)

Of course there are strategies that work; that's why we're having such a hard time on this issue. The problem is that these are higher-level strategies, or that lower-levels of play become dominated by MK's trash. Planking, for instance, is totally beatable. 'Nado spam isn't really too much of an issue anymore. MK has a bunch of stuff that can be beaten individually, but when put together give sub-pro players a really hard time (read: it's better to just play Meta).

The problem with this community I believe is actually the censorship of information. Alot of players here dont have a clue how to play this game or any competitive fighting game, and just complain about metaknight because hes a very easy target. The other players who come to actually learn simple strats versus metaknight hide them in the burrows of the SBR or among themselves. Which is saddening because I do believe that if more solid information was compiled people would come to learn that the Metaknight matchup isnt as hard as they would like to believe. I believe the pros need to care for the lower-end of the community. Infact Wyatt (ADHD) actually made a thread speaking of how to deal with nado, one of the few threads on dealing with the match up from a top pro. This in my opinion is how we help the community. Not by banning Metaknight, because that really doesnt save fighting game communities.

This is something I fully disagree with. These boards are excellent in terms of information disseminated. Each character board has threads full of how-to's, frame data, and players willing to discuss. Tactics are shown, videos are produced, and major threads are filled with discussion. No, Smashboards has no problems with the dissemination of information.

Also people need to realize this is brawl, not Tekken 4. Tekken 4 Jin setup was basically game once it made contact. That is not the case in this game. The community should begin to assimilate tutorials or videos on how to combat metaknight; id rather that than simply banning metaknight because itll make the community better for it.

You say that as if it hasn't already been done. The problem with Metaknight is that he is self-correcting. He has so many good tools at his disposal that once one of his tricks has a weakness, the MK can simply use another tool or combination of tools to make up the ground. The MK/Jin comparison isn't 1:1, of course, but no one is saying it is; we're saying that the parallels are strong enough to warrant serious concern.

Appeasing the community like that is dumb as far as I am concerned because honestly Jack you can say 'o i dont have the inherent talent.' One can understand that, but you can not state that you dont have enough time to invest in the game as your defense for failing vs metaknight. Thats just ridiculous. How can anyone help you with that? That you could say that vs any top tier character in any fighting game. I am a firm believer that most people believe they know the Meta matchup havent the slightest clue.

This is just you not understanding the argument you're fighting. Again, no one is asking for retribution against higher-level players. No one is asking for Meta to be restricted/banned so that he can go on to beat players higher than him. I honestly don't have the time to invest to **** at Smash tournaments, and so I don't expect to get out of pools. But, if I do invest time and still get ***** by a MK that started playing 2 weeks ago, yeah, I'll be frustrated.

And, people keep saying that "inherent skill" doesn't exist as if science hasn't already proven that. Take some psych classes, people. People learn in different ways and at different rates due to wiring in the brain that is entirely controlled by genetics. Proven fact; a person can learn better via lecture than via hands-on learning. It even works in terms of subjects learned; for instance, I'm trash at math, but I rock at spacial reasoning and linguistics. This is because of the way my brain is wired, as well as which hemisphere of my brain dominant. Why on Earth wouldn't this extend to competitive anything? Shaq will always be better than me in Basketball because I'm 5'5" and he's an ogre, unless I put in such an ungodly amount of work that it would invalidate his inherent advantage. Smash can be the same way. Spacial reasoning. Reaction time. Strategy. Muscle speed. People can work on these through practice, but it is just common sense that some people will be better than others, and all other things equal, will always be so. It sucks, but that's life.

For example, on the Sonic boards alot of people have problems vs shuttle loop and punishing glide attack. Funnily enough around this game's release a Sonic player by the name of Tenki posted that Sonic can simply fair through metaknights glide attack. Not only that, Sonic can also fair right through metaknights drill rush. Now these tactics aid Sonics alot; it gives sonic an opening and sonic being one of the greatest characters of following up within the game can take great advantage of that simple tactic. A tactic that people never even used until recently. A tactic that doesnt require a gargantuan amount of inherent talent to pull off. People simply didnt know.

And you think that Fair-ing through a glide attack will suddenly make Sonic viable v. MK? No, it won't, because Meta can just cancel the glide with one of his 5 jumps and Nair, which outprioritizes. Or 'Nado. Or his own Fair. See the point? Meta keeps finding new uses for his already massive bag of tricks, while Sonic doesn't.

Theres tons of techs that people have know for awhile now that would aid a said character in the myriad of their respective matchups. Sadly people keep it hidden, and thus noone knows and people get fustrated. Pros need to learn in this community that for the most part, you have to spoon feed the lower levels. Unfortunate, yes, but a necessity. And im sorry for people who think that nado and dsmash anniliates alone. Because they dont; not at all. Alot of our community wants the easy way out. I say we come together; have pros more active on the PUBLIC boards and all get better. Try out things see what works and go from there. Because when you have people shocked about pivot grabbing, shield grabbing and powershield grabbing nado at this stage of the game. You have a problem. And it sure as hell aint Meta.

Again, these boards have no problem with giving out information. Really, I am always impressed at how easy it is for me to find information in Smashboards. Let's just face it; there is no magic tech that will make MK any less awesome.

 

[KribO]

While it is good that it didn't kill competitive brawl immediately (Though I don't know many intelligent pro-bans who said it would do its damage that fast...)

1) Diddy winning needs to be done by more people and have it happen more than once to demonstrate anything significant.
2) People have quit because of MK, and more are likely to because of how much not fun it is to fight against him.

So um...diaf?

made me giggle (the 'how much not fun' part, otherwise, the post itself was fine)

On topic: another thing i believe people need to realize, is IF meta knight goes bye-bye, there will just be propositions to remove the NEXT "cheap player." Eventually, smash will turn into "who's the best 'captain falcon'" or some other low-tier character, taking out the best part of smash.

 

[Allied]

jacks been around deez parts

 

[Allied]

made me giggle

On topic: another thing i believe people need to realize, is IF meta knight goes bye-bye, there will just be propositions to remove the NEXT "cheap player." Eventually, smash will turn into "who's the best 'captain falcon'" or some other low-tier character, taking out the best part of smash.

if metaknight goes bye bye so does half the community lol XD

 

[salaboB]

Do you know how many people quit because of melee shiek
Or SFturbo Akuma
Or SF4 Sagat
or MvC2 cable combos
or world of warcraft druids
or smash 64 pikachu
etc

and yeah snakes are winning tournaments too and thats JUS da start

soon kirbehs

So because other games have damaging characters allowed Brawl has to?

Brawl is its own game, we don't have to be sheep if something is clearly better for the community. I'm not even trying to say MK should be banned right now, I'm just saying it's silly to attack pro-ban people for points that are far from disproven, and that what it will do to Brawl should be looked at on its own merits -- not what everyone else has done.

Both sides just want Brawl to be the best competitive game it can reasonably be, after all.

 

[Allied]

So because other games have damaging characters allowed Brawl has to?

Brawl is its own game, we don't have to be sheep if something is clearly better for the community. I'm not even trying to say MK should be banned right now, I'm just saying it's silly to attack pro-ban people for points that are far from disproven, and that what it will do to Brawl should be looked at on its own merits -- not what everyone else has done.

Both sides just want Brawl to be the best competitive game it can reasonably be, after all.

it already is a great competitive fighting game haha thats why there aren't any pro ban or anti ban polls for MK because hes wanted around and definitally proven not hard to beat and pretty hard to leave a top legit level its not just easy pick up and boom pro
status XD

those are prime examples though of what other fighting communies are going thru with some top dominating characters and even though they whine just as bad as you guys

they figure out ways to beat em

thats the fun :D

ps all the games i listed are fun as sh*T

 

[KribO]

if metaknight goes bye bye so does half the community lol XD

Or that half designing tournament lay-outs and rules allowing for meta-knight. Stranger things have happened after all.

 

[salaboB]

they figure out ways to beat em

We'll see if Diddy's standing against MK lasts as it gets tested out more thoroughly, there's likely a lot of MU unfamiliarity at the moment.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So because other games have damaging characters allowed Brawl has to?

Brawl is its own game, we don't have to be sheep if something is clearly better for the community. I'm not even trying to say MK should be banned right now, I'm just saying it's silly to attack pro-ban people for points that are far from disproven, and that what it will do to Brawl should be looked at on its own merits -- not what everyone else has done.

Both sides just want Brawl to be the best competitive game it can reasonably be, after all.

I think it's funny that the anti-ban argument always (generally) boils down to "no one else bans stuff, so why should we" and/or "if we ban Meta, no one will respect us!"

...which is hilarious, since all we ever do is ban stuff. Most of the reason the other communities don't respect us is because we banned items prematurely and because we have such a large stage ban list. I find it telling that the anti-ban's best argument is "we want their respect" when the whole reason we don't have it is because of their own policies.

Either way, you're right, both sides just want what's best... but, as they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The pro-ban argument really can stand on its own, while the anti-ban argument is not only self-defeating, but usually always relies on the efforts of one person at a time (Ally, now ADHD). Just screw what other communities do and do what is best for US; it's not like we don't already do that. And stop cherry-picking when to use other's policies (Meta) and when not to (items, stages).

 

[Allied]

Or that half designing tournament lay-outs and rules allowing for meta-knight. Stranger things have happened after all.

Sorry not quite catching what you are saying

We'll see if Diddy's standing against MK lasts as it gets tested out more thoroughly, there's likely a lot of MU unfamiliarity at the moment.

I mean no johns either way the game has been out for 2 years but just goes to show the metagame is evolving XD

its been proven Snake, Mk, and DIddy can take the top spots why aren't you guys willing to try more

Inb4low tier mains wanting to win nationals full jigglypuff

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thread should have ended here.

Akuma's in SF2 didnt win ALL team battles.
They also didnt win all the tournaments, just MOST of them.

An extreme example to point out the fallacy.

The exception only PROVES the rule, it doesnt refute it.

All it says is that Wyatt was the best player there, it doesnt change the fact that metaknight was the best character and statisticallypeaking, should have won.


Even more so when Metaknight still wins MOST of the tournaments.
You should know better than to say such things RDK.

 

[Big-Cat]

if metaknight goes bye bye so does half the community lol XD

Then that would be a testament both to the game's design and the community as well.

 

[KribO]

I'm implying that if people decided to ban meta, instead of leaving, the pro-meta brawlers will just make their own tournaments that allow the use of meta knight, instead of just completely leaving brawl as it is. at least that's what i got out of your response.

 

[Allied]

I think it's funny that the anti-ban argument always (generally) boils down to "no one else bans stuff, so why should we" and/or "if we ban Meta, no one will respect us!"

...which is hilarious, since all we ever do is ban stuff. Most of the reason the other communities don't respect us is because we banned items prematurely and because we have such a large stage ban list. I find it telling that the anti-ban's best argument is "we want their respect" when the whole reason we don't have it is because of their own policies.

Either way, you're right, both sides just want what's best... but, as they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The pro-ban argument really can stand on its own, while the anti-ban argument is not only self-defeating, but usually always relies on the efforts of one person at a time (Ally, now ADHD). Just screw what other communities do and do what is best for US; it's not like we don't already do that. And stop cherry-picking when to use other's policies (Meta) and when not to (items, stages).

hahah i think because we took brawl as melee and completely kinda copy (and tested) a decent stage list and use the same kinda rules (a little tweaked)

Akuma's in SF2 didnt win ALL team battles.
They also didnt win all the tournaments, just MOST of them.

An extreme example to point out the fallacy.

The exception only PROVES the rule, it doesnt refute it.

All it says is that Wyatt was the best player there, it doesnt change the fact that metaknight was the best character and statisticallypeaking, should have won.


Even more so when Metaknight still wins MOST of the tournaments.
You should know better than to say such things RDK.

Yeah no i was just pointing out people did b*tch about akuma and all the other things i mentioned but it doesn't mean they are ban worthy =0

Then that would be a testament both to the game's design and the community as well.

wat

 

[Jack Kieser]

Akuma's in SF2 didnt win ALL team battles.
They also didnt win all the tournaments, just MOST of them.

An extreme example to point out the fallacy.

The exception only PROVES the rule, it doesnt refute it.

All it says is that Wyatt was the best player there, it doesnt change the fact that metaknight was the best character and statisticallypeaking, should have won.


Even more so when Metaknight still wins MOST of the tournaments.
You should know better than to say such things RDK.

<3's, ShadowLink, <3's.

We aren't seeing nearly enough debate hall posters in this thread, btw.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The pro-ban argument really can stand on its own, while the anti-ban argument is not only self-defeating, but usually always relies on the efforts of one person at a time (Ally, now ADHD).

One anti-ban argument, yes.

However, the pro-ban's argument has been the same for one and a half years. Just change a few national tournament names and you have the same argument. It's been said that MK would deteriorate the metagame in October of 2008 and look where we are now; the metagame is seemingly no different. There's still a lot of MKs just as there was before, but there's no evidence of it getting worse.

If you want to seriously change minds, bring something new to the table. Someone actually analyze medium or large sized tournament trends (not just nationals) and try to prove that MK has been creeping into the top spots over time. Do something. But if you keep rehashing the same argument, nothing's going to change.

At the very least, ADHD's bringing a new perspective, something that I haven't seen from the pro-ban's side in a while.

 

[ADHD]

Jack you're wrong. I am not uncaring of the lower-level play of brawl, and wanting mk to stay there is irrelevant to that anyway. I hate that you'd accuse me of this.

 

[Z1GMA]

Pros:

Priority, good range, never ending Frame Traps, recovery (versatile & ungimpable),
above average killing power, Good DI,
hard to "combo", is mad good at comboing others, gimping,
good at refreshing his kill-moves, unmatched Ledge Game,
very good Punishing Game, Spacing, hard to punish most of his attacks,
all throws deals above average damage, TORNADO,
Dsmash comes out at frame 5 and has above average knockback.
Aerial Shuttle Loop does not only have invinciframes, it also kills at 60% by the ledge
(and that's with good DI).

Cons:

Lightweight and no projectile.

vvvvvvv

MK is mad broken. I still don't think he should be banned, though.