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Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

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However, the single best post in this thread was by sfp when he said the main issue is that if we don't ban MK we are going to to have to keep enforcing micro bans to keep play fair, which honestly seems like the ultimate evil. For everyone complaining about matchup surgery, this is exactly that but on a massive scale.
I agree, that SFP guy is really smart. AND handsome.

BUUUT f'rill, consider that it is easier (and more practical) to enforce a ban of MK than to force ban on ledge grabbing, circle stalling/camping/verbing, "air camping" (lol at the fact that anyone can even do this), etc.

There are too many minor changes that need to be made to the game to keep MK "fair," if we're using the community definition of fairness; where is the line drawn? And what makes it so important to keep a character like that viable, anyway? Why are people fighitng SO HARD to keep this character in the game? Every time someone proposes a ledge ban or something similar, and then saying they are anti-ban, they are contridicting themselves in a huge way.

If Planking and Circle Verbing aren't brokne, then they aren't broken and that's the game we play. As long as everyone's cool with that, I am too.

For that reason, I'm not pro- or anti-ban really, but either MK is broken (and by "broken," I mean that adjustments to basic game mechanics accessable to all or most characters must be made to keep him viable) or he isn't. Stop pussyfooting around and decide.
 

Kaffei

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Like I said.. get the lead first.. If ADHD and Ally can do it I'm sure other people can too.












plz?
 

6Mizu

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This thread was started by ADHD about 4 day ago...and since it started people have been talkin about "MK needs ban blah blah blah."If it's such a big issue then everyone shouldVOTEI know it's been done before, but it seems like it'd bring peace to this crap. Put up poll. So what do you guys think? :ohwell:

Edit: Also, because of this thread other thread have "sprouted". So end this and put up a **** poll.
 
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This thread was started by ADHD about 4 day ago...and since it started people have been talkin about "MK needs ban blah blah blah." If it's such a big issue. Then everyone shouldVOTEI know it's been done before, but it seems like it'd bring peace to this crap. Put up poll. So what do you guys think? :ohwell:
I think you should stop posting. I like ADHD but his original post is nothing but a bunch of self-aggrandizing and illogical rambling that added nothing to the argument. His post was literally "You guys are dumb, here's how good I am and what my opinion is."
 

Flayl

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Anybody who suggests making a poll should save me the 900€ of travelling expenses and punch themself in the face on my behalf.
 

Demp

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Has it the past 3 times? No. What primarily calmed it down the last time was an official statement from the SBR.
 

6Mizu

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Has it the past 3 times? No. What primarily calmed it down the last time was an official statement from the SBR.
Good point. But I just want this stupid argument to stop.

Fail logic is fail.
Seriously, rPSI can you stop doing that! :mad:
Where I post you have to come in and ****ing make me look bad. Just stopp that ****. If you don't want to say anything nice that be quite.
(The reason I'm sayin this is because you've done this multiple timez in the past). :mad:
 

rPSIvysaur

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Seriously, rPSI can you stop doing that! :mad:
Where I post you have to come in and ****ing make me look bad. Just stopp that ****. If you don't want to say anything nice that be quite.
(The reason I'm sayin this is because you've done this multiple timez in the past). :mad:
Maybe if you didn't fail post so often. Honestly, people already told you it was a bad idea, so you continued to persue it. You do that quite often, and I call you out on it. Posting a poll in here would be a horrible idea, I don't even have to elaborate, because people have already told you why.

The average attention span of a Brawl Boards poster is ~5 seconds.
Sorry, you lost me there. I was too busy. . . oh look, a butterfly.
 

6Mizu

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Has it the past 3 times? No. What primarily calmed it down the last time was an official statement from the SBR.
Good point. But I just want this stupid argument to stop.



Seriously, rPSI can you stop doing that! :mad:
Where I post you have to come in and ****ing make me look bad. Just stopp that ****. If you don't want to say anything nice that be quite.
(The reason I'm sayin this is because you've done this multiple timez in the past). :mad:
Maybe if you didn't fail post so often. Honestly, people already told you it was a bad idea, so you continued to persue it. You do that quite often, and I call you out on it. Posting a poll in here would be a horrible idea, I don't even have to elaborate, because people have already told you why.
I stopped perusing it. Look!
I tried twice to reinforce it. And it didn't work, so I stopped.

And quit ****ing lying "me fail posting" isn't that only reason you like to make me look bad.
I remind of another reason, that you already know: It makes you feel superior to me. You like to feel like your better than me etc.
 

En.Ee.Oh

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rofl @ m2k not wanting MK banned, yet as of late, being the MAIN REASON why this is under discussion again with of his lame tactics he uses when someone is actually a threat

hilarity

you're going to get your character banned jason unless u stop being a lamea$$ :o
 

MarKO X

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rofl @ m2k not wanting MK banned, yet as of late, being the MAIN REASON why this is under discussion again with of his lame tactics he uses when someone is actually a threat

hilarity

you're going to get your character banned jason unless u stop being a lamea$$ :o
interestingly enough, i remember him saying that the reason he picked up MK was beacuse DDD was too campy, slow, and boring for him to play.
 

Kaffei

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interestingly enough, i remember him saying that the reason he picked up MK was beacuse DDD was too campy, slow, and boring for him to play.
Mew2king: "However, there was one character was REALLY fun and made the game much more fun for me since he felt like Melee, and that character is Metaknight. To me, he made Brawl fun.
"
 

Javon89

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Wouldn't it just be simple for players to learn the match-up? The planking option is very gay, could the SBR have a rule against character grabbing the ledge more than a certain amount of times to limit the use of it thus making it more and not banning the character so it can possibly be the best of both worlds? Like Japan?

Please correct if my opinion looks very dumb or not possible, or both. I'm still a scrub.
 

solecalibur

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Like I said.. get the lead first.. If ADHD and Ally can do it I'm sure other people can too.












plz?
Why should we have to always be winning against a MK ? He should have the same chase like any other character to come back in the game, What if im down 5% from a MK I lost? Think a little please

edit - ally didnt game 5 vs M2k he got timed out
 

MarKO X

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Wouldn't it just be simple for players to learn the match-up? The planking option is very gay, could the SBR have a rule against character grabbing the ledge more than a certain amount of times to limit the use of it thus making it more and not banning the character so it can possibly be the best of both worlds? Like Japan?

Please correct if my opinion looks very dumb or not possible, or both. I'm still a scrub.
The ledge grab rule already exists here in the US. 50 is usually the magic number. And planking is still a problem.

It would be simple to learn the matchup, but if my assumption is correct, most matchups theorycraft isnt based on planking.
 

Ripple

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if Ally can get timed out, there is a serious problem with MK
 

adumbrodeus

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Never lose the lead = 90-10 MUs at best on the entire cast, period.


But invincible stalling has already been proven to overcentralize, any invincable stall must be banned in manner that is both discrete and enforcable. That's why we banned IDC, and that's why scrooging should be banned (there was data compiled proving it was an invincible stall against a fair portion of the cast), and banning crossing the underside of the stage is an easy way to do that.



But, an MK infinite stalling technique that cannot be banned in a discrete and enforceable manner WOULD require his ban as a character (that goes for the entire rest of the cast).


Similarly, I'm having doubts about whether it's possible to ban planking in a discrete enforceable manner without completely sacking the ledgegame, so if planking IS overcentralizing, that would require an MK ban.
 

Uffe

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You beating a bunch of well-known MK's doesn't mean that other people are going to have a just as easy time against him. And not everybody uses Diddy Kong. From what I see, you're pretty much saying that with Diddy Kong, you can beat MK if you know the match-up. What does Diddy Kong have that no other character does? Bananas and the ability to manipulate them with it. Plus, he's high-tier, so that's another thing. Now, could we stop with the wanting to ban MK? It's not ever going to happen, so there is no point in discussing it anymore.
 

Inui

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I made it to page 20 or so and just got bored of finding stuff to quote. This is enough for now.

ROB goes even or has the advantage on all of the chars listed here but gets killed by MK ;)
No. ROB sucks. He loses to Snake, Dedede, ICs, etc. MK being gone just removes one problem of many for this character.

I havent gone to a national yet due to parent johns. LOL @ I havent put the effort to beat MK. I know that matchup inside out. But once mk resorts to air camping, planking and scrooging, I lose. Its impossible to beat mk if hes doing that. I might be going to apex, if other pr players are willing to travel OoS again.
No, you don't. You're from PR. You have a good Dedede and a good Peach there and NOTHING ELSE. I played an MK from PR in crews at Genesis and my 3 stocks beat his 5.

im really, really, really glad swf is an oligarchy and not a democracy.
Me too. It's fun being part of the governing body.

Is it just me, or do the majority of pro-ban posts seem almost completely idiotic, wrong, or just plain stupid?
It's not just you. It's pretty apparent.

I agree that people that don't go to IRL tournaments shouldn't have a say but there are a lot of people (like myself) whose forum names aren't their gamer tags, there's not a practical way to make sure such a list is accurate. and going even beyond that, the general populace shouldn't(and doesn't) have a major impact on it otherwise, because then you get sillyness like this(aib response to the same OP)

"You're Diddy, I'm Ike.

He should be gone. "

translation: I came to a gunfight with a club, pity me.
Good post.

I have one question for people:

What is with this talk of "Brawl will die" or "Brawl is dying"? There is no evidence whatsoever to support this. In fact, most evidence supports Brawl becoming MORE popular. So what are you people talking about?
It's more pro-ban BS. Tournaments are only getting bigger. Maybe certain regions are dying, but most are growing, and nationals are growing overall.

HOBO set a record when meta was banned.
This is because you hyped that event more than any other you've ever done in your hosting career, including WHOBO, and failed at hyping everything else. After that, your MK-banned events had horrible attendance and most of your state vocally opposes banning MK.

Oh, Christ... ENOUGH OF LEARN2PLAY!!! I'm sick and tired of hearing this uneducated drivel! What in the great blue hell do you people think we've been doing for 2 years? Playing, learning matchups, and practicing, just as you have. The fact of the matter is that 99% of people will not be able to do what Ally or ADHD or any other random pro player can do because no amount of study or practice can make up for inherent skill.
Then 99% of you are bad. Learn more. If ADHD, Ally, ChuDat, Atomsk, Lain, Meep, etc. are taking out MKs without MK, then guess what? It's possible. It's possible even if you're the lesser player, like when Atomsk's ICs beat Anti's MK twice and ADHD scores wins on Mew2King. You need more high-level experience.

This is what is so frustrating about all of this. ADHD's post didn't bring anything new to the table. It wasn't eloquent or well written. It didn't prove anything significant. The only thing ADHD's post showed us was that ADHD is an a**hole. That's it. Anyone who has the balls to turn to the majority of average people, people with lives, jobs, families, and people who just flat out aren't as inherently skilled, and actually say to them "just stop sucking and be as awesome as me" doesn't deserve to be able to post. Flat out.
Allow me to translate your post:



That's all I saw. I saw you call a 16 year-old boy an asshole because he thinks people should get better.

Guess what? He's a good kid with a good mindset. He started off as some scrub that I remember ******. He would get 9th at a tournament here and be happy with it. He got ***** by Mew2King the first few times. You know what he did? He got better. He worked for it. He played and trained with good players.

His mindset >>> your scrubby one. You are ever so salty, child.

It shows that he (and the people like him) have no practical understanding of the way the real world works. Maybe the people in Haiti should just live better and not let some noob earthquake take them out; they should be as leet as us Americans and Learn2Live better. Forget that they don't have the resources like us, the infrastructure like us, the organization like us. Forget that they are inherently handicapped because of where they live; they should just do better, as if it's that easy.
THIS IS COMPETITIVE GAMING. ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE.

Here is a pic of you showing off your new tattoo:



Get better. Rules aren't made to cater to n00bs. If you are not inherently skilled enough to beat MK but plenty of other people are, guess what? That's your problem. You are destined to be bad if that's your mindset.

There are plenty of people that are straight up IDIOTS in my mind that are top players at this game. I think Mew2King, ADHD, Atomsk, Judge, ChuDat, Ally, and plenty of other top players are pretty dumb. I'm just being honest. I've seen them all out in the real world plenty of times and have interacted with them enough outside of the game to determine this for myself. Yet, they are all top players beating people that are smarter out in that world. Why? Who cares why? They practice and play right. They're doing it right, and others aren't.

KOS-MOS is from bumblefuck Oklahoma and he got amazing at both Melee and Brawl by manning up and traveling. That's what you have to do if you live in a garbage area. Deal with it.


"Desiring Metaknight to be competitively viable" is not showing contempt, but making a post that says "I don't care about the particulars or differences between myself and any other player; I won a top tournament and thus have the right to take away another player's right to complain or dissent from established Brawl dogma simply because they aren't capable of replicating my far-above-average results, even if they lack the time, inherent skill, or opportunity that I have, all of which is obviously above average (thus giving me an inherent advantage)." is showing contempt.
Get better. ADHD started off bad just like everyone else and got better. His mindset is good. Yours is trash.

You show through your posting that you not only don't fully understand why you are able to do so well, but you don't understand why others may not be able to replicate your results with a 100% rate of success (because if it was as easy or simple as you say, people would be doing it right and left). Furthermore, you show contempt for people lesser than you by obviously not caring about their own separate metagames, which are obviously, arguable, and provably affected by Metaknight in much more extreme ways than your own, separate metagames that pay for your OoS trips and prize winnings, metagames that allow your precious high-level play to exist by feeding top players with money and a constant influx of players.
It's not easy. He's not saying it's easy. ADHD worked hard to get where he is. He's saying it's possible. He's a little kid that started with no Melee experience and look what he's doing now. GET BETTER.

And, yes, I am the guy who wanted items to become a legitimate competitive venue
Quit life please.

The first MK ban Poll was in October '08 I believe. One of the main arguments was that MK would destroy the Brawl scene sooner or later and that people would quit because of him. More than a year later the biggest smash tournament ever takes place, a Diddy Kong wins it and people still say he destroys the Brawl scene?

Kill yourselves, pro-banners.

:059:
qft

Heck yes I think metaknight should be banned! I mean granted that a diddy kong won Pound 4 and a diddy kong won S.N.E.S and a snake won Apex and Genesis BUT HECK GUYS I HATE METAKNIGHT!
lmao
 

Overswarm

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But invincible stalling has already been proven to overcentralize, any invincable stall must be banned in manner that is both discrete and enforcable. That's why we banned IDC, and that's why scrooging should be banned (there was data compiled proving it was an invincible stall against a fair portion of the cast), and banning crossing the underside of the stage is an easy way to do that.
You don't need the bottom. You can do it above the stage too, I've checked.
 

Ripple

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It's not ever going to happen, so there is no point in discussing it anymore.

I don't see why people keep saying this. YOU DON'T KNOW! many of the SBR are even pro ban
 

TP

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Inui, there were several problems in your post, but only one that I REALLY want to address: someone made a graph showing all tournament attendance per month for the last year and a half, based on Ankoku's thread. There was a spike in attendance after Christmas of 2008, but besides that there has been a slow but steady decline in total number of entrants per month.

Just pointing that out. You can't argue with numbers.
 

adumbrodeus

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Quit life please.
Hey, ISP is a cool side tournament.


It's more pro-ban BS. Tournaments are only getting bigger. Maybe certain regions are dying, but most are growing, and nationals are growing overall.

Hotgarbage posted a chart of aggregate numbers taken from ankoku's data, and it showed a downturn... whether that means a downturn in reporting, a centralization in the community (aka people attend fewer tournaments, but concentrate on regionals/nationals), or some other effect is something that we don't know at this point.




Otherwise, I'm gonna say that while (as usual) I don't like your way of saying it, but you're pretty much right. Without clear evidence that he fits a legitimate ban criteria, all it amounts to is johns.


You don't need the bottom. You can do it above the stage too, I've checked.
I sincerly doubt that it affects the numbers of characters due to the pure distance required in order to be safe.


Regardless, vids or it didn't happen, and also, number of characters it effects.
 

Ripple

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but more are anti-ban. It takes more than just a simple majority to actually get him banned.
actually I remember hearing from overswarm that there are more pro-ban than anti ban. (he's in the SBR).

it just wasn't 66% of the BR
 

Maniclysane

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Inui, there were several problems in your post, but only one that I REALLY want to address: someone made a graph showing all tournament attendance per month for the last year and a half, based on Ankoku's thread. There was a spike in attendance after Christmas of 2008, but besides that there has been a slow but steady decline in total number of entrants per month.

Just pointing that out. You can't argue with numbers.
Yeah you can.

Who says the players that quit were any good? A smaller community with better plays pushes away bad players. Or maybe we're left with only bad players. It could be anything.

They're just numbers. They're quantitative, not qualitative.
 

TP

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Yeah you can.

Who says the players that quit were any good? A smaller community with better plays pushes away bad players. Or maybe we're left with only bad players. It could be anything.

They're just numbers. They're quantitative, not qualitative.
Why on earth would bad players leaving the community be a GOOD thing? There is NO positive outcome to a decline in tournament attendance. Period. If I'm wrong, please provide a counterexample.
 

adumbrodeus

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Why on earth would bad players leaving the community be a GOOD thing? There is NO positive outcome to a decline in tournament attendance. Period. If I'm wrong, please provide a counterexample.
Problem is, it doesn't prove anything, the numbers don't really show why they've decreased, and a downturn in reporting is a very real possibility here, as well as other issues relating to the quality of the data.


Also... was that raw or net attendance?


Ledge grab rule and no DDD infinite says hi.
Notice that neither is an SBR rule... a ton of individual TOs just decided it, but they are both scrub rules honestly, one for lack of proper evidence that A. it's a problem and B. it addresses the problem, and the other for just being there to surgically edit 1 MU (ostensibly 5, but those don't really fit, and only one is a viable character anyway).
 
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