Why isn't Brawl+ the competitive standard?

[El Duderino]

Because that is not how he works, his playstyle was made with Aura in mind.

That's like saying he was designed to be a punching bag so they threw in an artificial buff at higher percents. It is the counter opposite to Pichu hurting himself. Artificial damage giving, damage taking tweaks are lame, and if I had my way it would have no place in the game. I just do not find it good design for a fighter, but unfortunately it seems to be expected from Lucario now.

Even with PM Lucario it is a matter of picking the lesser of the two evils for me. Artificial damage, or hit-rewarding. The only reason I find hit-rewarding more acceptable is it is not a guaranteed hit. Of course hit-rewarding is still rewarding a player for playing well, which is something the player should not need anyway. Still, if Lucario is weaker in general because of it, I'll prefer it to an auto-handicap element when the Lucario player is doing poorly.

This thread isn't really about Project M, or at least it shouldn't be. If it has become about PM, then I guess it's just more evidence of Brawl+'s irrelevancy and Project M's presence in the community. =P

Pretty much.

Simple answer.

It's a hacked version.

You say hack, I say mod. Tomáto tomato. Lets not forget Counter Strike and Team Fortress started that way as well. Hacks/Mods can clearly produce their own competitive communities, we've just never seen it on a console before. PM has potential to break new ground and be the first.

 

[Steam]

Lucario isn't really rewarded for playing poorly. you still get ***** and will be losing. Lucario is rewarded for clutch play and good DI/survival skills. Sure if you get ***** you'll be at higher%... but if you're not getting ***** you'll eventually end up there as well... it's not like if you do well you'll never be at high% (unless you just 3 stock them)

 

[nLiM8d]

Still, if Lucario is weaker in general because of it, I'll prefer it to an auto-handicap element when the Lucario player is doing poorly.

Perhaps this was mentioned in response to another examination of Lucario's design, but keep in mind that having a high percentage does not always mean that a player is doing poorly.

That's like saying he was designed to be a punching bag so they threw in an artificial buff at higher percents.

I suppose one could see it in that light. I will say that Red Ryu's Aura example captures it a little better.

And the mechanic is present, for better or for worse. Which is probably why you settled on this medium.

Even with PM Lucario it is a matter of picking the lesser of the two evils for me.

 

[El Duderino]

Lucario isn't really rewarded for playing poorly. you still get ***** and will be losing. Lucario is rewarded for clutch play and good DI/survival skills. Sure if you get ***** you'll be at higher%... but if you're not getting ***** you'll eventually end up there as well... it's not like if you do well you'll never be at high% (unless you just 3 stock them)

Never said it encourages poor play. My issue more or less is the nature of the idea as I detailed above.

Rewarding clutch play as you call it is still bogus to me. You don't play Lucario any different than anyone else at higher percents. Surviving longer and killing more is enough reward in itself and all the incentive you need. It is just more of that unnecessary artificial handicap we don't need, so obviously I don't consider it a positive asset to Lucario's design.

 

[Steam]

actually. higher aura improves the shield stun and slide his moves deal. making him pressure better at high aura....

you also need to realize... how bad lucario is at low%... he can absolutely **** someone while at low% while they can even it with like 4 moves.

 

[El Duderino]

actually. higher aura improves the shield stun and slide his moves deal. making him pressure better at high aura....

you also need to realize... how bad lucario is at low%... he can absolutely **** someone while at low% while they can even it with like 4 moves.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You should be rewarded for playing well in general by dealing the appropriate damage. It shouldn't depend on working with or dealing with the offensive handicap at your percent.

 

[Steam]

you are rewarded for that. you still do damage. just not as much... It adds a great deal to his character design as you have to adapt to your opponent and what options are really available to you at your %. it's an opinion anyways

 

[nLiM8d]

Yeah, just like you said. Lucario's overall design holds close to a couple gimmicks. For you its the lesser of two evils to include a mechanic that stimulates confidence in your offensive ability.

The OHC system is essentially Viagra to Lucario's limited performance capabilities.

 

[El Duderino]

you are rewarded for that. you still do damage. just not as much... It adds a great deal to his character design as you have to adapt to your opponent and what options are really available to you at your %. it's an opinion anyways

I'm not arguing it can't add depth, just that at it's core, it is based around an artificial handicap that I have an issue with. Not the right way to go about adding depth or making a character unique in my mind. This same argument could apply to Pichu in Melee, he takes damage making him a pretty uniquely designed character. As a result, he encourages a certain style of reserved play that requires more confidence to use an electric attack. When I phrase it that way, it makes Pichu sound like a deep character because of the gimmick.

Now it's ultimately your call if you think these sort of handicap style character attributes were for the better, but I think it is fair to say there are varying opinions. Lucario's current traits are not university loved or hated. The Project M developers are just trying something different to see if the shoe fits a little better for the audience. The beauty is, if the general perception is it does not work, they can always change it back.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Simple answer.

It's a hacked version.

Ninja'd

/thread

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's like saying he was designed to be a punching bag so they threw in an artificial buff at higher percents. It is the counter opposite to Pichu hurting himself. Artificial damage giving, damage taking tweaks are lame, and if I had my way it would have no place in the game. I just do not find it good design for a fighter, but unfortunately it seems to be expected from Lucario now.

Even with PM Lucario it is a matter of picking the lesser of the two evils for me. Artificial damage, or hit-rewarding. The only reason I find hit-rewarding more acceptable is it is not a guaranteed hit. Of course hit-rewarding is still rewarding a player for playing well, which is something the player should not need anyway. Still, if Lucario is weaker in general because of it, I'll prefer it to an auto-handicap element when the Lucario player is doing poorly.




Pretty much.


You say hack, I say mod. Tomáto tomato. Lets not forget Counter Strike and Team Fortress started that way as well. Hacks/Mods can clearly produce their own competitive communities, we've just never seen it on a console before. PM has potential to break new ground and be the first.

Why is making is kill potential not static bad? He was designed with the buff in mind.

The only reason people wanna is because they think this will stop any thoughts off defensive play despite the fact that won't stop players from doing it if they can.

One system works off his life total, which is no different from other fighters. Character will die earlier for making mistakes on killing him. Lucario get rewarded for stock tanking. He still has to play well, aura will not win him games without the player making the right choices.

The other is trying to reward hitting an opponent and rushdown.

The first does not reward camping, people need to get that bad mindset out of their heads. He is rewarded for keeping stocks and living as high as possible.

He rewards good DI and not getting killed. He does get a bonus when down stocks and at high %, that does not mean a player played poorly, that is like saying Ganon dair spiking off stage even though he was getting ***** or Jigglpuff doing an Uthrow to Rest is not good because they have good kill power.

The only reason people complain is because it isn't static like it is for anyone else.

 

[shanus]

OHC is so fast it's more like guesswork... unless you have to DI every hit the same way to get out. then it's just like Lucario's jab game in brawl except it works.

You dont know what you are talking about. The slightest ASDI or hp/grav difference on a per character basis makes your choice of OHC to be critical and calculated. Unless you've played it, please dont assume you know how it works

 

[Steam]

okay so then it's like lucario's jab game in brawl with more hitstun.

either that or something you'd still have to kinda guess their DI on.

 

[El Duderino]

This just about sums everything up:

 

[UltiMario]

El Duderino is getting some serious respect points.

****ing amazing chart.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

El Duderino is getting some serious respect points.

^This^

Stick around Dude, we need more intelligent posters.

 

[Pachinkosam]

there less stuff in brawl.And more stuff in melee like wavedashs and sorry recovery but am still a melee guy and brawl guy the ssb64 not my style AND NOTE AM WRITING ON WII NOT A COMPUTER

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This just about sums everything up:

I like this chart a lot.

 

[El Duderino]

The only reason people complain is because it isn't static like it is for anyone else.

Fair enough. I don't like the idea of messing with the core game in such a way. It has nothing to do with balance, uniqueness, or depth. I just think there are better ways to achieve all three of those than what was implemented for Lucario in Brawl. Of course there will be people that disagree with me, but to each their own.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

This just about sums everything up:

What's the point in asking a question on a chart like that if BOTH answers lead to the same answer?

Do you like either? Right on the top. Useless

 

[El Duderino]

What's the point in asking a question on a chart like that if BOTH answers lead to the same answer?

Do you like either? Right on the top. Useless

Because I was making a point. Our own personal preferences do not necessarily drive the outcome. In fact, that's kinda what this entire chart is about.

The truth is we just don't know. We don't know what the Brawl scene will look like when P:M is released, we don't know what the P:M scene will look like, and we don't know with any certainty what will become the accepted norm in the competitive circles. All we have is estimated guesses that are clearly influenced by our preferences.

 

[nLiM8d]

The truth is we just don't know. We don't know what the Brawl scene will look like when P:M is released, we don't know what the P:M scene will look like, and we don't know with any certainty what will become the accepted norm in the competitive circles. All we have is estimated guesses that are clearly influenced by our preferences.

Bello Bellisimo!

Any final thoughts about this thread gents?

I am NOT being sarcastic

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think duder up there pretty much summed up the answer to this thread there, so now there isn't much to say lol.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I wanna start making some cool charts now.

 

[MonkUnit]

You misspelled competitive.

 

[El Duderino]

I also misspelled other things but don't really care enough to go back fix it now that the point has already been made.

 

[Strong Badam]

Because I was making a point. Our own personal preferences do not necessarily drive the outcome. In fact, that's kinda what this entire chart is about.

The truth is we just don't know. We don't know what the Brawl scene will look like when P:M is released, we don't know what the P:M scene will look like, and we don't know with any certainty what will become the accepted norm in the competitive circles. All we have is estimated guesses that are clearly influenced by our preferences.

But it's a mod, and I can objectively state with no evidence whatsoever that it will never become big because Nintendo's **** isn't in it!

*puts fingers in ears* BLAH BLAH BLAH CAN'T HEAR YOU, TOO BUSY LEDGEDROP FRAME 2 U-AIRING WITH MK AND AIR-DODGING FRAME 14 OF HITSTUN

 

[nLiM8d]

Surface level wut?

 

[shanus]

okay so then it's like lucario's jab game in brawl with more hitstun.

either that or something you'd still have to kinda guess their DI on.

wrong again, melee and brawl have the same hitstun constant. in brawl, you can cancel out of hitstun early, thats the big difference.

 

[SmashChu]

I guess I'll hijack this a bit and say something some has probably not said.

Will Brawl+ or Project M be competitive standard. No, because competitive Brawl is dead. It doesn't matter what that standard is because there is no big tournament running Super Smash Brothers anymore, so there is no reason to care about standards and the likes. In the end, what matters is what you and your friends play. But there is no competitive scene as far as I can see.

 

[Shadic]

there is no big tournament running Super Smash Brothers anymore, so there is no reason to care about standards and the likes. In the end, what matters is what you and your friends play. But there is no competitive scene as far as I can see.

Take off your blinders.

 

[FrozenHobo]

what this is, I don't even...

 

[SmashChu]

Take off your blinders.

Perhaps dead is harsh now that I think about it. But looking at simple prize pool, we can see it's has took a huge hit in the last years. Looking at genesis, top made 2,000 which you could haave made from any one regional event in MLG in 2010. EVO also pays out far better and SF4 had about $10,000. Those prize pools are very low.

If you are going to plaay with friends and play "competitively," that's fine, but if you want to be really competitive, pick up Street Fighter 4 or Starcraft 2 instead. You'll be better off. heck, MvC3 does better in terms of money.

 

[Shadic]

1) Fairly sure Armada made $3000 at Genesis 2.
2) Smash has always been smaller than traditional fighters. It hasn't been around for nearly as long, doesn't have the same level on sponsorship, etc. Just because it is still smaller than the biggest scenes doesn't mean that it's dead.
3) I don't think people play games seriously in hopes of living off the proceeds or anything. It's part of the experience and everything, but it's not the primary gauge of success. The scene is still extremely competitive.

 

[Shadic]

Edit: I hate you 502 Bad Gateway boards.

 

[Strong Badam]

there have only been like 2 players that have actually tried to make a living off of Super Smash Bros. the fact that you can't do so easily is one of the worst reasons I've ever heard of to diagnose the competitive scene as "dead"

 

[FrozenHobo]

Perhaps dead is harsh now that I think about it. But looking at simple prize pool, we can see it's has took a huge hit in the last years. Looking at genesis, top made 2,000 which you could haave made from any one regional event in MLG in 2010. EVO also pays out far better and SF4 had about $10,000. Those prize pools are very low.

If you are going to plaay with friends and play "competitively," that's fine, but if you want to be really competitive, pick up Street Fighter 4 or Starcraft 2 instead. You'll be better off. heck, MvC3 does better in terms of money.

 

[Steam]

wrong again, melee and brawl have the same hitstun constant. in brawl, you can cancel out of hitstun early, thats the big difference.

in practice it's the exact the same thing as what I was saying lol... I wouldn't really call it hitstun if you can get out of it for free. longer hitstun means **** actually works. with brawl you have to read their DI AND what they do once you want to jab cancel into **** because they're free from hitstun and they can jump/dodge/throw out moves.

edit: I don't think you could pay me 10,000 dollars to pay street fighter all the time... that game is beyond boring...

 

[El Duderino]

in practice it's the exact the same thing as what I was saying lol... I wouldn't really call it hitstun if you can get out of it for free. longer hitstun means **** actually works. with brawl you have to read their DI AND what they do once you want to jab cancel into **** because they're free from hitstun and they can jump/dodge/throw out moves.

I'm sorry, but he never said you can get out of hitstun for free, just that it can be canceled. How, and the window of time you can cancel it is a completely different story. You are supporting your conclusions with incorrect claims. The reason why hitstun seems different in Brawl is because everything else is slower and floater. Also, using DI, counter-attacking, and reading your opponents next move is just as important in say Melee, especially if you want to survive playing against someone who chain attacks well. The difference is Brawl's pacing naturally lends itself to easier escapes, which ultimately means less offensive pressure.

Keep in mind shanus is also a developer meaning he probably knows more than you about what goes on under the hood of Brawl, Melee, and PM.

 

[Steam]

you can cancel out of brawl hitstun by doing anything... lol. I don't care what causes it. My point is that OHC Lucario seems pretty much like Brawl lucario's Jab game except the **** actually works because you have enough frame advantage on hit... all you have to read is DI

also there is no window to cancel out of hitstun in brawl... you just do anything... so it might as well not be hitstun... overall there's effectively much less hitstun in brawl. play melee, get blasted offstage, watch how long it is before you can do anything. play brawl, get blasted offstage, be able to throw out aerials basically right away.