Why isn't Brawl+ the competitive standard?

[Mr.Jackpot]

New Brawl players if they're just discovering the competitive scene are going to care a hundred times less about the Project M physics than they are of things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDdx5hPdA_k

 

[Willntdie]

I'm just saying if project M replaced brawl as the standard, casual players would have a lot harder time getting into it since almost none of them played the game. casual players come along and enter the scene half the time because they think they're good at brawl because they're the best in their group of friends... but then they come and the standard is some random hack game that they have never played before...

New Brawl players if they're just discovering the competitive scene are going to care a hundred times less about the Project M physics than they are of things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDdx5hPdA_k

Valid point, it's the hype and aesthetics that draws in new players. Many will try it out just for seismic toss.

Just adding on to Duderino's reasoning: At this point there really isn't any newcomers who really care for competitive smash. Those who are looking for competition would be willing to make the change, else they wouldn't really be serious about joining anyways. How do you think melee still gains newcomers? People watch some Melee matches and go "Oh cool, I wanna try playing melee again" and melee is an old outdated game that isn't even being sold in most stores anymore. So it's not like "if a mod is the new standard, it is unaccessible to newcomers". As long as it's being advertised through videos and talked about by people, it's not a problem. People watch some PM videos, google search it if they're interested, and then find out they can try it out for free and set everything up within 5 minutes, they'll probably give it a try. The fact that they can then delete it if they don't like it is great as well, you've paid money for Brawl so you'd like to get the most out of it.

 

[El Duderino]

Of course though, Steam's whole take is Project M is no different than Brawl+ or Brawl- and will likewise fizzle out. I doubt any example we give of how it could expand its audience will change his mind. What he can't argue against however, without flat-out saying it will be a disappointment, is how big of an audience PM has already:

• Project M on Smashboards, dwarfs every single Mod in activity, sitting at over 1 1/2 million page views, more than double everything else combined.
  
• Project M currently pulls comparable amounts of active visits to the Smash WiiU thread.
  
• Unlike with vBrawl and Brawl+, the Melee community is mostly optimistic about Project M.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but I believe it is evidence that, at the very least, things are different this time around.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Of course though, Steam's whole take is Project M is no different than Brawl+ or Brawl- and will likewise fizzle out. I doubt any example we give of how it could expand its audience will change his mind. What he can't argue against however, without flat-out saying it will be a disappointment, is how big of an audience PM has already:

• Project M on Smashboards, dwarfs every single Mod in activity, sitting at over 1 1/2 million page views, more than double everything else combined.
  
• Project M currently pulls in comparable amounts of active visits to the Smash WiiU thread.
  
• Unlike with vBrawl and Brawl+, the Melee community is mostly optimistic about Project M.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but I believe it is evidence that, at the very least, things are different this time around.

Indeed. I just hope that the press emphasizes that Project M is only adding features and stages and not forcing you in a certain way with a certain ruleset, because that seems to be the only complaint, yet a very frequent complaint, I see when I'm browsing around. Imagine how differently the Smash community would be seen if it weren't for that one stupid "Fox only Final Destination video".

 

[Steam]

I'm saying, in the real tourney scene, there are plenty of essentially casual randoms who will tend to show up (at least in my scene). you'll be really alienating them if these people discover you're playing some hack and not they game they play all the time... aaaand they won't come back. there is really nothing wrong with a project M side event for all the people who are regulars (or interested newcomers)... just like there are sometimes duelist side events. but making it the standard would be a reaaaaally bad idea... Especially since many current players would quit the game if it became the standard, or run their own brawl events, further dividing the community.

and of course the melee community is optimistic about project M. They've been collectively whining about brawl for four years so of course they'd be hopeful when someone finally gives them what they want...

 

[El Duderino]

I'm saying, in the real tourney scene, there are plenty of essentially casual randoms who will tend to show up (at least in my scene). you'll be really alienating them if these people discover you're playing some hack and not they game they play all the time... aaaand they won't come back.

That is hardly a given. Sure, it could happen, but so could the opposite, "Wait, this is not Brawl? But it's kinda like Melee? Well I like Melee too so I'll give it a shot". They could always walk away with a positive experience that excites them to come back. You see for every negative scenario, there is also a positive equivalent.

Especially since many current players would quit the game if it became the standard, or run their own brawl events, further dividing the community.

My point has always been Project M has potential to coexist with Brawl as a new game in the tournament scene, maybe even revitalize it. When PM is finally released and people are itching to put their skills to the test, denying them the recognition and structure is only going to cause unnecessary turmoil around here. Better to get past it and move on. The vBrawl scene is going to have to weather the storm either way.

and of course the melee community is optimistic about project M. They've been collectively whining about brawl for four years so of course they'd be hopeful when someone finally gives them what they want...

My point was more or less plenty of them are coming back because the play style in their favorite Smash game is now relevant again.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Even if it ends up being the "standard", Project M really shouldn't take up more than half the set ups at the most during tournaments. People will still be dedicated to Melee/Brawl no matter how popular it becomes and they'll be plenty of room for casuals to join in AND try out Project M as well.

 

[BladeKnight420]

It's impossible to really set a hack as the competitive standard universally when nearly all tournaments are done in standard Brawl currently. I think the solution is to simply have more individual Brawl+/Balanced Brawl tournaments to the point where it wouldn't be such an alien concept to overturn standard Brawl.

Even if we do somehow get it through, though, we'll just get mocked by other fighting game communities at the big name tournaments for having to modify our game to make it competitively viable, to the point they won't accept us in at all.

 

[Shadic]

Smash has always been mocked by the "super real fighting game community" because of the fact that we had to turn off items and specific stages.

 

[BladeKnight420]

Smash has always been mocked by the "super real fighting game community" because of the fact that we had to turn off items and specific stages.

I know, I know. Otherwise I wouldn't be showing that much concern about this. I'm just saying this won't help matters.

 

[El Duderino]

Even if we do somehow get it through, though, we'll just get mocked by other fighting game communities at the big name tournaments for having to modify our game to make it competitively viable, to the point they won't accept us in at all.

Smash has always been mocked by other fighting game communities and has never had an easy time being accepted in those tournaments, or staying around for long. None of that will be any different.

Besides, anyone mocking a fighting game for needing a player driven development team should to have their head examined. Every fighting game could use one, we should be so lucky to actually have it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually, Brawl has always been mocked by other fighting game communities. Very few intelligent fighting game players have ever mocked Melee, lol.

 

[Willntdie]

But nobody sees the dedication to their favourite game. The Smash community is willing to to go so far as to hack their game to make it more competitive than to sit still and accept fate. What about any other community? Can you say the same for the SF3S fans that didn't like SF4? Can they try and make SSF4 play more like Third Strike? For that alone, I don't see "we have to hack our game to make it better" is really a bad point. It just means we are fixing up what the developers have not.

P:M shouldn't be replacing Brawl/Melee. It should just be more of a main event rather than a side event. You'll have half the setups running P:M, and the other half running Brawl/Melee. It'll take time, but things can pan out for themselves.

 

[Steam]

That is hardly a given. Sure, it could happen, but so could the opposite, "Wait, this is not Brawl? But it's kinda like Melee? Well I like Melee too so I'll give it a shot". They could always walk away with a positive experience that excites them to come back. You see for every negative scenario, there is also a positive equivalent.

If someone likes melee they could... just play melee and enjoy that since most tourneys have melee and brawl at them? People who like the melee style have melee. replacing brawl with M kinda sucks variety out (even if brawl is slow and campy and generally not as fun for most people including myself).

My point has always been Project M has potential to coexist with Brawl as a new game in the tournament scene, maybe even revitalize it. When PM is finally released and people are itching to put their skills to the test, denying them the recognition and structure is only going to cause unnecessary turmoil around here. Better to get past it and move on. The vBrawl scene is going to have to weather the storm either way.

coexisting as a seperate, 3rd event along with melee and brawl is no problem at all.

My point was more or less plenty of them are coming back because the play style in their favorite Smash game is now relevant again.

their playstyle has been relevant. Melee is still a relevant game.

@grim- even people who hate on brawl's legitimacy for things other than tripping are probably dumb.

 

[SmashChu]

there have only been like 2 players that have actually tried to make a living off of Super Smash Bros. the fact that you can't do so easily is one of the worst reasons I've ever heard of to diagnose the competitive scene as "dead"

Perhaps you never could, but look at the middle, not the extremes. The fact that there are big prizes means people are going to work harder to get them. It also means more people are willing to try their hand at it for a piece of the pie. Having big tournaments is a great thing as it just means more people will see it and more people will try. The fact that Smash now lacks these seems to me like it's dying. No one knows its around (because they only host Smash specific tournaments) and no one is going to try their hand at it (no money). Smash has the biggest player base of people who do not try to be competitive. There is a lot of potential for growth. Big tournaments helped realize it. With out them, it wont reach them. Thus, I say it's dead. Even if it's not, it's not going anywhere.

1) Fairly sure Armada made $3000 at Genesis 2.
2) Smash has always been smaller than traditional fighters. It hasn't been around for nearly as long, doesn't have the same level on sponsorship, etc. Just because it is still smaller than the biggest scenes doesn't mean that it's dead.
3) I don't think people play games seriously in hopes of living off the proceeds or anything. It's part of the experience and everything, but it's not the primary gauge of success. The scene is still extremely competitive.

1)$3000 for the biggest tournament around is small. For comparison, Mew2King made $2,500 at MLG Columbus, which is one of many MLG tournaments. The winner of MLG Dallas (who was GNES) I beleive made $12K. This is a huge difference in income.
2)I'm saying it's dead not because it is generally smaller (which I say is arguable, it's probably the only fighting game that has been constant in MLG). It's saying it's dead because it has lost all the big tournaments. MLG was great for Smash as it was a big tournament with good prizes and happened fairly often. With that and EVO out the window, there is a lot less for Smash. Remember that big tournaments with nice prize pools are always a good thing. It's going to draw more people to the game which will better the metagame and create more tournaments. Right now, Smash players are relying on Pound and Genesis 2 which are much smaller and will not attract anyone who is not a Smash player already.
3)How is it "extremely competitive." What is the "primary gauge of success?"Being "extremely competitive," means nothing. I can be extremely competitive in Mario Party, but that doesn't mean that there are tournaments. Not sure we can use that as a gaauge of health as it's so ambiguous.

But let me say this: I'd say it's less competitive because there are no big tournaments. In MLG, we saw Sonics and Yoshis beat meta-Knight. Two Sonic players made it all the way to Dallas. I say that's competitive. People are going to compete better if there is something to work for. MLG give something for people to work for. I'd say more money means more competition, even if you can't make a living off of it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, these are pretty late. Sorry about that.

 

[El Duderino]

If someone likes melee they could... just play melee and enjoy that since most tourneys have melee and brawl at them? People who like the melee style have melee. replacing brawl with M kinda sucks variety out (even if brawl is slow and campy and generally not as fun for most people including myself).

Melee is not perfect, Melee's scene took a significant hit with Brawl, and Melee is not new anymore. PM will help fix those problems, and a variety of new content to make a Smash game in general feel new and improved for a lot of people. Maybe not for you, but definitely for the massive amount of people following Project M.

The "just play Melee" broken record is not a valid argument, I'm sorry. I don't know why you keep coming back to it. Project M is something different and will add variety along with returning players to the tournament scene, not stagnate it.

 

[Steam]

Melee is not perfect, Melee's scene took a significant hit with Brawl, and Melee is not new anymore. PM will help fix those problems, and a variety of new content to make a Smash game in general feel new and improved for a lot of people. Maybe not for you, but definitely for the massive amount of people following Project M.

The "just play Melee" broken record is not a valid argument, I'm sorry. I don't know why you keep coming back to it. Project M is something different and will add variety along with returning players to the tournament scene, not stagnate it.

they're making project M to be exactly like melee basically... so if it's replacing brawl it really is sucking out variety :/

But there's still nothing wrong with a 3rd event for it. I don't know why it should be replacing brawl or melee though.

and fix is a general word, I personally wouldn't like it if brawl became project M because I used to have 2 games (brawl and melee) and now I basically have 1.

 

[El Duderino]

they're making project M to be exactly like melee basically... so if it's replacing brawl it really is sucking out variety :/

But there's still nothing wrong with a 3rd event for it. I don't know why it should be replacing brawl or melee though.

and fix is a general word, I personally wouldn't like it if brawl became project M because I used to have 2 games (brawl and melee) and now I basically have 1.

I'm ignoring your first point because it is just your take. You are getting 3 games to play, not 2, and definitely not 1. If just about all the Melee players decide they would rather play P:M, then perhaps they drop Melee. If Project M gets more activity than Brawl, then perhaps Brawl becomes the side event. It all depends on what people want to play and what the hosts of these events want to do.

 

[Steam]

I honestly don't care as long as brawl and melee are still played at tourneys until smash 4 comes out

 

[Ghostbone]

P:M won't replace Brawl unless Brawl players start to think it's that much better than Brawl.
So it's not like anyone loses here.

 

[Crispy4001]

they're making project M to be exactly like melee basically...

Are you being ignorantly reductive or just ignorant?

P:M won't replace Brawl unless Brawl players start to think it's that much better than Brawl.
So it's not like anyone loses here.

vBrawl is too different from other Smash games and most of the codesets to be replaced. If the Brawl scene was to further wean/die it would happen from diminishing interest in Brawl for what Brawl is.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

If someone likes melee they could... just play melee and enjoy that since most tourneys have melee and brawl at them? People who like the melee style have melee. replacing brawl with M kinda sucks variety out (even if brawl is slow and campy and generally not as fun for most people including myself).

How you kept up with ANY of the PM updates?

 

[Steam]

yes I have, it's essentially converting brawl into melee. all that really remains is footstooling... though I really like the removal of "accidental" footstooling and making it its own command.

 

[Willntdie]

While it is matching the physics system of melee and restoring some characters back to their former potential, it's not a 1:1 copy. For example old characters are changed (i.e: Bowser) and new character from Brawl are in and are changed (Lucas, Snake, Charizard, Lucario, etc etc), it's more of an expansion pack for melee more than just blatantly placing Melee in Brawl graphics. But I digress, it's called Project Melee for a reason. It is still a new game, just a polished melee with more characters and stages.

 

[El Duderino]

yes I have, it's essentially converting brawl into melee. all that really remains is footstooling...

You make it sound like there are a lot of great gameplay additions in Brawl to take out. Brawl did far more tweaking, removing, and simplifying than actual inventing. Besides, out of what was put in there, like tripping, hitstun-canceling, easy power-shielding, etc., most of it was intended to break the potential for higher level play. Lessen that gap between practiced and novice players. Make it easier for new people to pick up without being trampled over.

From what I see, they are adapting what they like about Brawl to Melee. Do it the other way around and you get Brawl+. Of course though, to a crazy purist who feels neither games can benefit from each other or should be improved, it's all pointless and will never go anywhere. Becoming a standard headlining tournaments would certainly be out of the question if you think that way.

 

[Steam]

the only thing taken from brawl was footstooling and the general framework... but that's honestly not the point. the point is it will only further divide the community if it becomes the standard and it will basically zero out any chances of it becoming a sponsored game since it's a hacked version of a game the creators don't want hacked.

and removing hitstun doesn't make the game easier IMO, it makes you work a lot harder for damage once you get in... I mean it would be great if there was more so I could just take every character to 70% every time I landed a jab with lucario... but I feel that would get old. It's why I play both games XD

 

[Ghostbone]

yes I have, it's essentially converting brawl into melee. all that really remains is footstooling... though I really like the removal of "accidental" footstooling and making it its own command.

Can't tell if sarcasm >.>

What advanced techs have they taken out of Brawl may I ask? I can't think of any universal ones.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tripping was removed.

That's a universal AT

 

[Steam]

Can't tell if sarcasm >.>

What advanced techs have they taken out of Brawl may I ask? I can't think of any universal ones.

it's not techs, just the mechanics in general are made to mimic melee, they even made the teching system the 20 frame window instead proximity just to make it like melee <_>

but it's not the point since both games are fine

 

[Ghostbone]

it's not techs, just the mechanics in general are made to mimic melee, they even made the teching system the 20 frame window instead proximity just to make it like melee <_>

but it's not the point since both games are fine

In other words.
"OMG they took out heaps of cool stuff for no apparent reason!"
"What stuff?"
"Well they didn't really take out anything"
O.o

Of course they made the mechanics like Melee...That's kinda the point.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

They left in all the techs like DACUS and RAR, IIRC proximity based teching was taken out of +/-/PM because it was glitched (something about attacks supposed to be techable but not?) and is kind of like a fast fall on c stick. Competitive Smash always had not chance of sponsorship by the "creators" and Project M doesn't change anything about that. Save your "instant 70% combo" claim for until you actual play Lucario, you sound like one of those scrubs on youtube who comment "OMG he brok dat guyz shield by spamming the refector wut a gay noob!"

 

[Willntdie]

and removing hitstun doesn't make the game easier IMO, it makes you work a lot harder for damage once you get in... I mean it would be great if there was more so I could just take every character to 70% every time I landed a jab with lucario... but I feel that would get old. It's why I play both games XD

Somebody please teach me that technique. How can I get a 70% combo off a jab? I feel it would really better my game.

 

[Revven]

it's not techs, just the mechanics in general are made to mimic melee, they even made the teching system the 20 frame window instead proximity just to make it like melee <_>

but it's not the point since both games are fine

That was asbolutely not the reason why teching was changed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize how much of a departure Brawl's teching was from what Smash 64 and Melee introduced. The teching in Brawl would not work in a Melee environment, teching isn't meant to be something annoyingly "difficult" to time like it was in Brawl. It's a basic gameplay mechanic just like rolling or spotdodging is so why should it be anymore difficult to perform than those two basic defensive moves? Answer is, it shouldn't and doesn't provide for proper techchase options and getting out of being jab reset. Look at how useless teching is in the Brawl metagame and how many times players "mess up" on teching simple stage spikes like Falcon's Up B close to the edge. Every time you tech you're in a worse position than if you hadn't teched... It was an abysmal change that only further made Brawl worse imo. It was implemented terribly...

I could go in more detail but I'm in class atm.

Secondly, Gimpyfish put it best on why the "just play Melee" argument doesn't work against PM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-SF73E3huE

Listen to the whole thing, you're doing yourself a disservice by not listening to it, he makes a ton of valid points.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Steam, I'm not sure you really understand the fundamental, basic concept behind Project Melee.

 

[Steam]

That was asbolutely not the reason why teching was changed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize how much of a departure Brawl's teching was from what Smash 64 and Melee introduced. The teching in Brawl would not work in a Melee environment, teching isn't meant to be something annoyingly "difficult" to time like it was in Brawl. It's a basic gameplay mechanic just like rolling or spotdodging is so why should it be anymore difficult to perform than those two basic defensive moves? Answer is, it shouldn't and doesn't provide for proper techchase options and getting out of being jab reset. Look at how useless teching is in the Brawl metagame and how many times players "mess up" on teching simple stage spikes like Falcon's Up B close to the edge. Every time you tech you're in a worse position than if you hadn't teched... It was an abysmal change that only further made Brawl worse imo. It was implemented terribly...

so if melee made it easy it's supposed to be easy? I thought people always hated on brawl for being too easy... lol I could say it's an improvement because you can't tech half the time by just panic mashing R. if players in brawl mess up teching they need to get better.

and teching doesn't usually put you in a worse position. only if you're predictable with how you tech, it's just in brawl you don't need to as much due to less hitstun.

@will- if brawl had more hitstun a lot of characters would be able to do that.

@yhii- to make it the game all the melee players wished it was? turn brawl into melee? seems like the objective to me.

@Mr.Jackpot- if you read my post carefully you would know that that wasn't referring to project M but rather if they gave brawl more hitstun. and I DO actually play melee and enjoy it much more than brawl so I don't know what you're going on about.

 

[El Duderino]

and removing hitstun doesn't make the game easier IMO, it makes you work a lot harder for damage once you get in... I mean it would be great if there was more so I could just take every character to 70% every time I landed a jab with lucario... but I feel that would get old. It's why I play both games XD

You must be playing a completely different game than the rest of us because Melee doesn't work that way at all. There is no free 70%. Some Melee match-ups do lend themselves to easier follow-ups, though nothing is ever a given. But that is what balencing Project M is all about, fixing those match-ups to try giving everyone equal odds of winning.

Hitstun canceling in Brawl is there to discourage chasing down your opponent, it's not there as a mechanic to make you work harder to do it. The % window where you have practical follow up odds is too small for that to be the case. Unless of course you are MK . It is absolutely in there to prevent new players from being pummeled to the same degree they could in Melee.

 

[Steam]

You must be playing a completely different game than the rest of us because Melee doesn't work that way at all. There is no free 70%. Some Melee match-ups do lend themselves to easier follow-ups, though nothing is ever a given. But that is what balencing Project M is all about, fixing those match-ups to try giving everyone equal odds of winning.

Hitstun canceling in Brawl is there to discourage chasing down your opponent, it's not there as a mechanic to make you work harder to do it. The % window where you have practical follow up odds is too small for that to be the case. Unless of course you are MK.

I was talking about in brawl. which I figured people would pick up on since I said lucario.

and no one knows the purpose of hitstun canceling in brawl. It could have been the result of of slowing down the game and giving it buffer so that there weren't stupid 0-deaths all over the place that were easy to do. I also can't imagine how many more CGs there would be in brawl with more hitstun... I don't understand this mentality of "everything changed in brawl was to ruin it"

also MK isn't the only character with good "follow up odds". plenty of characters can do it and in many cases there are still guranteed combos at times. but even when there aren't it adds a level of depth of having to read/react to your opponent's action.

 

[Crispy4001]

@yhii- to make it the game all the melee players wished it was? turn brawl into melee? seems like the objective to me.

Implying that those objectives are one in the same gets at the root of your ingorance here.

Go watch this so that you might gain some perspective.

 

[SmashChu]

That was asbolutely not the reason why teching was changed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize how much of a departure Brawl's teching was from what Smash 64 and Melee introduced. The teching in Brawl would not work in a Melee environment, teching isn't meant to be something annoyingly "difficult" to time like it was in Brawl. It's a basic gameplay mechanic just like rolling or spotdodging is so why should it be anymore difficult to perform than those two basic defensive moves? Answer is, it shouldn't and doesn't provide for proper techchase options and getting out of being jab reset. Look at how useless teching is in the Brawl metagame and how many times players "mess up" on teching simple stage spikes like Falcon's Up B close to the edge. Every time you tech you're in a worse position than if you hadn't teched... It was an abysmal change that only further made Brawl worse imo. It was implemented terribly...

Yeah, I don't think that was the point of it....

I could go in more detail but I'm in class atm.

Secondly, Gimpyfish put it best on why the "just play Melee" argument doesn't work against PM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-SF73E3huE

Listen to the whole thing, you're doing yourself a disservice by not listening to it, he makes a ton of valid points.

I'm trying to watch it, but it's just so poorly done. I'm sorry, but Starcraft players just do it better.

What I get from it is the same tired lines from the people who continuously hold the community back. "i don't have to learn a new game." "OMG, Brawl sucks." It's just childish really.

I talked about the scene dying earlier. If these things become the "standard," the scene will die off forever. No major tournament is going to run a mod (this is discounting games like Counter Strike which made a totally new game verses Brawl being used for Melee 2.0).

EDIT:Just watched vids on Project M and I'm going to say this: go play melee. This is such a joke of a game. Change the physics, sure. But the moves are exactly the same. The remade the stages. This is just a bunch of manchildren who rather than learn and adapt they decide to play the same game again with a new coat of paint.

 

[Revven]

so if melee made it easy it's supposed to be easy?

Super Smash Bros 64.

That's all I'm going to say. Melee and Brawl aren't the only Smash games. Smash 64 and Melee set a precedent for how teching should be. Brawl took that and said "no, this is how it works, let's make you relearn it" in a way that isn't even sufficient, the point is it's worse in Brawl than it is in Smash 64 and Melee. Why change something that worked just fine before? There is no justification at all for making it different.

Nobody will see eye to eye on it though in this thread. Bias and preferences stink up to high heaven in here, including myself.