Why isn't Brawl+ the competitive standard?

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't worry Steam, the PM devs just love correcting people on that minor, irrelevant fact. I see them doing it everywhere, it is borderline spam and grammar nazi-ism now.

 

[MonkUnit]

you can cancel out of brawl hitstun by doing anything... lol. I don't care what causes it. My point is that OHC Lucario seems pretty much like Brawl lucario's Jab game except the **** actually works because you have enough frame advantage on hit... all you have to read is DI

also there is no window to cancel out of hitstun in brawl... you just do anything... so it might as well not be hitstun... overall there's effectively much less hitstun in brawl. play melee, get blasted offstage, watch how long it is before you can do anything. play brawl, get blasted offstage, be able to throw out aerials basically right away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNNe3aR5bGc has some frame windows in the vid

 

[Strong Badam]

Don't worry Steam, the PM devs just love correcting people on that minor, irrelevant fact. I see them doing it everywhere, it is borderline spam and grammar nazi-ism now.

yeah, **** being informed and knowledgeable about things. row row fight the powah?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, **** being informed and knowledgeable about things. Row row fight the power?

Fixed that for you.

 

[Strong Badam]

thanks bro! ^_~

 

[FrozenHobo]

Don't worry Steam, the PM devs just love correcting people on that minor, irrelevant fact. I see them doing it everywhere, it is borderline spam and grammar nazi-ism now.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brian is such a bad character >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

It's pointless telling people all the time that "Zomg you're so dumb Brawl has hitstun it just doesn't stun you herrr derrrr"
That means it's effectively the same as not having hitstun.
Go correct people calling smooth landing l-cancelling or something.

 

[El Duderino]

It's pointless telling people all the time that "Zomg you're so dumb Brawl has hitstun it just doesn't stun you herrr derrrr" That means it's effectively the same as not having hitstun.

This is a deductive fallacy. Someone clearly didn't get the memo. I recommend actually having a valid point before resorting to any sort of dumbspeak. Making other people sound stupid only works if you have something smart to say.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

^ This guy knows what he is talkin about.
The smartest rookie I've ever seen post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is a deductive fallacy. Someone clearly didn't get the memo. I recommend actually having a valid point before resorting to any sort of dumbspeak. Making other people sound stupid only works if you have something smart to say.

What.

He said that very little hitstun cancelling and no hitstun are effectively the same, which isn't a fallacy at all.

 

[Steam]

yeah you can "cancel" out of hitstun just about right away by doing... like anything but specials and jumping. It's a very valid point. if it was real hitstun... you woudn't be able to do anything... It's not like you even have to hit some window... it's just after frame X you're free to throw out dodges and after frame Y you can throw out aerials. doesn't sound like stun to me. In melee, where there's serious hitstun... the only hitstun cancel like that there is is meteor canceling with your upB when you get meteor smashed. There's also things that indirectly reduce it like crouch canceling but bleh.

 

[El Duderino]

What.

He said that very little hitstun cancelling and no hitstun are effectively the same, which isn't a fallacy at all.

No he said, and I quote "that means it's effectively the same as not having hitstun", which is simply not true. Hitstun is always there to some degree so the opposite player cannot counter immediately.

If a character suffers from being consistently countered when using simple attacks that are suppose to link, like the starting jabs, it is not necessarily Brawl's hitstun canceling at fault as in theory there should be enough hitstun left. It is more shoddy design on those moves timing not being tweaked properly to fit the pacing of the game.

 

[Ghostbone]

No he said, and I quote "that means it's effectively the same as not having hitstun", which is simply not true. Hitstun is always there to some degree so the opposite player cannot counter immediately.

Well it's not always there, ever seen Ganon's up-b?
Okay maybe I worded it incorrectly, it's effectively the same as having little hitstun.
Which it is.
The P:M guys feel the need to make themselves sound smart by telling people that Brawl has the same hitstun constant as melee whenever someone says Brawl doesn't have much hitstun. My point was that who cares, being able to cancel hitstun basically means that there isn't hitstun after that point, since in the smash community hitstun is a term referring to a state where you're unable to perform any moves. It's like correcting people for using the term l-cancelling, since technically that's not the name, it's smooth landing, it's just the community has defined it as l-cancelling. Just like the community has defined hitstun as a state where you're not able to do anything.

-The term hitstun is used to refer to a state in which a character cannot perform any actions.
-After being hit in Brawl, there is only a very short time before you can act again.
-Therefore Brawl has little hitstun.
That's not fallacious.
You're attacking the wording not the argument, when it was very clear what I meant.
Try again.

 

[El Duderino]

Well it's not always there, ever seen Ganon's up-b?

Let me rephrase that as well, there is always suppose to be some sort of hitstun .

Okay maybe I worded it incorrectly, it's effectively the same as having little hitstun.
Which it is.
The P:M guys feel the need to make themselves sound smart by telling people that Brawl has the same hitstun constant as melee whenever someone says Brawl doesn't have much hitstun. My point was that who cares, being able to cancel hitstun basically means that there isn't hitstun after that point, since in the smash community hitstun is a term referring to a state where you're unable to perform any moves.

Or they could just be trying to correct misconceptions for the sake of keeping the argument on the right track. Why would they need to sound any smarter anyways? They are in the middle of heavily modding Brawl and balancing the result, surely that takes some smarts. Besides they likely get their real kicks from making a better Smash game, not "sounding smart" on a message board.

I could also care less about the hitstun comparisons in Brawl too. I personally believe the hitstun cancel is only in there to prevent this sort of thing that could result from Brawl's floater physics and slower pacing than Melee. Like I mentioned earlier, in my opinion a lot that the hitstun system is being blamed/praised for actually has more to do with move timing.

 

[Ghostbone]

Or they could just be trying to correct misconceptions for the sake of keeping the argument on the right track. Why would they need to sound any smarter anyways? They are in the middle of heavily modding Brawl and balancing the result, surely that takes some smarts. Besides they likely get their real kicks from making a better Smash game, not "sounding smart" on a message board.

But the problem is it's not even a misconception, it's a semantics issue, and they bring it up all the time.
They probably do it because they like to make fun of Brawl players, but idk why don't you ask them?

I could also care less about the hitstun comparisons in Brawl too. I personally believe the hitstun cancel is only in there to prevent this sort of thing that could result from Brawl's floater physics and slower pacing than Melee. Like I mentioned earlier, in my opinion a lot that the hitstun system is being blamed/praised for actually has more to do with move timing.

Trust me that isn't a problem, I've played hacked Brawl with the only change being you can't cancel hitstun (well tripping was off as well lol), and it's basically the same game, just you can do a few more 2-3 hit strings.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's pointless telling people all the time that "Zomg you're so dumb Brawl has hitstun it just doesn't stun you herrr derrrr"
That means it's effectively the same as not having hitstun.

The main point is that with hitstun canceling, you aren't free to do anything. After 14 frames, you can air-dodge. After 26 frames, you can aerial. You cancel hitstun with those actions; hitstun isn't actually over yet, and you have to go through the entire duration of that action before you're in a position equivalent to not being in hitstun. Yes, it has an effect on the combo-ability of vBrawl, but so does the increased landing lag of moves, or the lack of momentum transferring from run to jump, or a variety of other game mechanic changes that were seemingly put in place to prevent positional advantages from mattering.

But I digress. This thread has derailed significantly. Is there nothing more to talk about with the actual subject?

 

[Host Change]

Personally I would have a hard time seeing Brawl+ as the competitive standard. A lot of people would rather just play the game out of the box. Some don't know how to hack their Wiis. Others may not like the changes that Brawl+ made. Also this late into Brawl's competitive scene, it would be hard to convince people that there's a need to change 3 years into the game. It just doesn't make sense....

 

[El Duderino]

But the problem is it's not even a misconception, it's a semantics issue, and they bring it up all the time.
They probably do it because they like to make fun of Brawl players, but idk why don't you ask them?

They bring it up because people make wild claims about what hitsun in Brawl is responsible for, usually based on some misconstrued theory of how it works. Like Strong Bad said, it is just one small change of many to discourage the Melee style offensive play of reading your opponent's DI and chaining attacks.

For your own sake, I suggest we stay away from that second topic. You don't want to become that whiny guy complaining about some supposed hidden intent behind otherwise valid statements and opinions.

Trust me that isn't a problem, I've played hacked Brawl with the only change being you can't cancel hitstun (well tripping was off as well lol), and it's basically the same game, just you can do a few more 2-3 hit strings.

That's a pretty big over simplification, even for Brawl+. It's not worth my time arguing each and every way these mods are different, so look it up yourself.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

But I digress. This thread has derailed significantly. Is there nothing more to talk about with the actual subject?

I agree with strong bad here, the point of this thread already seemed to be addressed, so I don't see the point of continuing talking about unrelated topics in this thread.

 

[nLiM8d]

it would be hard to convince people that there's a need to change 3 years into the game. It just doesn't make sense....

Um, Black Ops?

Why do people still continue to purchase those?

 

[Slashy]

Brawl- should be the competitive standard.

I agree this guy speaks the truth.

 

[Ghostbone]

They bring it up because people make wild claims about what hitsun in Brawl is responsible for, usually based on some misconstrued theory of how it works. Like Strong Bad said, it is just one small change of many to discourage the Melee style offensive play of reading your opponent's DI and chaining attacks.

For your own sake, I suggest we stay away from that second topic. You don't want to become that whiny guy complaining about some supposed hidden intent behind otherwise valid statements and opinions.

That doesn't make saying Brawl has less hitstun not valid, because it does.
Being able to air-dodge or attack out of hitstun is effectively the same as not having hitstun after that point. Sure your options are kinda limited, but not really.

That's a pretty big over simplification, even for Brawl+. It's not worth my time arguing each and every way these mods are different, so look it up yourself.

What do you mean over simplification? There were only two codes being used, one turning off tripping, and one turning off the ability to cancel hitstun.
I wasn't playing a mod, I was playing with those two codes.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

http://smashmods.com/forum/page/bpchangelist.html

This is only two codes?

 

[Willntdie]

I think he meant he was playing Brawl using only 2 codes he picked himself rather than the whole complete Brawl+ codeset?

Anyways, back on topic: The reason I think Smash mods should be the competitive standard is because they are updateable. Look at any other current competitive game: SF, Blazblue, MvC, etc etc. They all have downloadable updates to fix glitches, exploits, and just general character balancing issues. This is how it should be. Since the P:M is run by the community, updates/patches will be in our best interests. Unlike Brawl.

 

[Steam]

But then you have a silppery slope of potentially biased devs nerfing characters they don't like or buffing their mains. I don't think it's a good idea to but balance in the hands of people who stand to gain from ruining it.

that and... instead of project M... you could just... like... play melee

 

[Le vieux lapin]

I think he meant he was playing Brawl using only 2 codes he picked himself rather than the whole complete Brawl+ codeset?

Anyways, back on topic: The reason I think Smash mods should be the competitive standard is because they are updateable. Look at any other current competitive game: SF, Blazblue, MvC, etc etc. They all have downloadable updates to fix glitches, exploits, and just general character balancing issues. This is how it should be. Since the P:M is run by the community, updates/patches will be in our best interests. Unlike Brawl.

Ahhh... can you imagine. Patching MK? Makes me smile inside.

 

[Willntdie]

But then you have a silppery slope of potentially biased devs nerfing characters they don't like or buffing their mains. I don't think it's a good idea to but balance in the hands of people who stand to gain from ruining it.

that and... instead of project M... you could just... like... play melee

You should have more faith in them... at least I want to. It's not in their best interests to make an unbalanced game just for themselves. If they did, people would just quit and go back to playing Brawl/Melee etc. Which completely defeats the purpose of making such an extensive mod in the first place.

We all have our preferences when it comes to smash, but P:M can hopefully tie together the best of both worlds.

 

[Steam]

You should have more faith in them... at least I want to. It's not in their best interests to make an unbalanced game just for themselves. If they did, people would just quit and go back to playing Brawl/Melee etc. Which completely defeats the purpose of making such an extensive mod in the first place.

We all have our preferences when it comes to smash, but P:M can hopefully tie together the best of both worlds.

They won't just intentionally **** things up. I just don't like the idea that the tourney standard game can pretty much be changed at will by a handful of people.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I think he meant he was playing Brawl using only 2 codes he picked himself rather than the whole complete Brawl+ codeset?

Anyways, back on topic: The reason I think Smash mods should be the competitive standard is because they are updateable. Look at any other current competitive game: SF, Blazblue, MvC, etc etc. They all have downloadable updates to fix glitches, exploits, and just general character balancing issues. This is how it should be. Since the P:M is run by the community, updates/patches will be in our best interests. Unlike Brawl.

Constant patching isn't necessarily a good thing, how hype do you think MvC2 would be if Capcom could've patched it like they're patching MvC3?

 

[El Duderino]

Constant patching isn't necessarily a good thing, how hype do you think MvC2 would be if Capcom could've patched it like they're patching MvC3?

They won't just intentionally **** things up. I just don't like the idea that the tourney standard game can pretty much be changed at will by a handful of people.

Starcraft and Brood War say hello. Patching can be done well in a competitive game, and yes, not everyone will be happy to accept each version's changes. But making every last person 100% happy is not the point. The point is to make a better, more balanced, less problematic game at high level play. The longer people play it, the more certain issues will become clear. So if we want the best game possible, yes patching is an absolute must.

Got a problem with the changes from version to version? Great, you can talk to one of the many of the developers here directly about it. When was the last time you could say that about another competitive game? It's one massive benefit to this being run by the community instead of a game developer. We have a really unique and amazing situation here, don't take it for granted. Besides, it is a little early to start fearing for the worst when we have no idea what these future patch changes may be .

That doesn't make saying Brawl has less hitstun not valid, because it does.

My point was never to defend the idea that hitstun is exactly the same. It may have the same value, but the Project M team are clearly aware of the difference. It almost goes without saying with the amount of time they have spent re-tweaking the mechanics of the game. Lets not forget, the whole reason why this even came up was other misconstrued claims of what the hitstun differences actually account for.

This isn't about, "he said this" or "she said that". It's about getting the facts straight. If you mistake these corrections for attempts to call people stupid, well that is for you to personally to deal with. Not really my problem.

 

[Steam]

another problem with this is it will create a giant line between the competitive community and the casual community. It will have never been harder to get into competitive smash if this was the standard just sayin.

hacks are fine and all for side events but they shouldn't go any further than that for the sake of the community.

and I'm still expecting little from project M... I feel like people will play it for awhile, get bored then go back to melee/brawl. kinda like minus...

 

[Willntdie]

As if it wasn't hard enough already to get into the competitive smash community. Not only do our games lack good online matchmaking, (which allow for players like me who don't live close to any gaming venues to get experience) we are also a divided fanbase. There's already a noticeable divide from melee to brawl. What do you think will happen in the future when the new SSB hits? An even bigger divide. People who blatantly refuse to play it and stick with melee/brawl, people who shift over, and all the new players who are mainly all casuals. I just hope that P:M can slightly unify the community before it breaks into 3 warring factions.

 

[El Duderino]

another problem with this is it will create a giant line between the competitive community and the casual community. It will have never been harder to get into competitive smash if this was the standard just sayin.

This is very much a valid point. Of course though what is more important to the competitive crowd, making it easier for new players to make that jump, or competing in their game of choice? Of course if you are sticking with vBrawl no matter what the answer is both, but imagine for a minute you had to pick one or the other.

and I'm still expecting little from project M... I feel like people will play it for awhile, get bored then go back to melee/brawl. kinda like minus...

It only takes matching Melee. Many people love Melee and prefer it to Brawl, competitive and casual alike. A Melee style Smash with better balance, more characters, and widescreen support? The reasons to leave PM start fading away.

As for Brawl, to no surprise many current and former Brawl players are also Melee players. Even less of a shock, many of those players are being featured in PM Beta streamed matches. Of course those few do not account for everyone, but clearly it has potential to bring a change. Just look around here, PM's existence is alone enough to put the initial crack in that community splinter. It could take a small chip off or rock the foundation. Either way something is gonna give if we don't allow them to exist happily together.

As if it wasn't hard enough already to get into the competitive smash community... I just hope that P:M can slightly unify the community before it breaks into 3 warring factions.

I certainly think it has the potential to appeal to long-time Melee fans. Also Brawl fans who missed out on playing as deep into Melee. Of course though there are clearly people who don't like like the idea of it and see it having the opposite effect.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

If it's marketed out the right way Project M can really appeal to the casual players.

 

[Ghostbone]

another problem with this is it will create a giant line between the competitive community and the casual community. It will have never been harder to get into competitive smash if this was the standard just sayin.

hacks are fine and all for side events but they shouldn't go any further than that for the sake of the community.

and I'm still expecting little from project M... I feel like people will play it for awhile, get bored then go back to melee/brawl. kinda like minus...

There isn't already a line between casual and competitive? It's not like Brawl will disappear, it will still be there, and P:M will be there as well.
P:M will only survive in the melee community, which isn't getting any new casual players joining it...so that argument doesn't work.

 

[El Duderino]

P:M will only survive in the melee community, which isn't getting any new casual players joining it...so that argument doesn't work.

Brawl is old enough now to not be gaining many new casual or competitive players either. That and it lacked the competitive growth spurt Melee had when wavedashing became a huge deal. Like it or not, it actually got people talking about and playing Melee more, even if they were in opposition. Just think about how many then relapsed players must have fired up the game to see what the fuss was about.

Back to the point at hand, the biggest type of players left to pickup are relapsed ones, which is one way Project M could achieve what appears to be outside growth. Also, lets image for a minute you never heard of a Smash mod before, liked Melee and Brawl, but haven't played them in a while. Then you see an article topic like this:

"Project M One-Ups Nintendo With Smash Bros. Mod"

I can't help but be reminded of when Melee's major controversy started. You don't necessarily have to like Project M to recognize this sort of press can bring people back to the game for a second run. Even bad press is good press in this situation, and I'm sure when it is actually released, there will be quite a bit more of both.

 

[Ghostbone]

Brawl is old enough now to not be gaining many new casual or competitive players either. That and it lacked the competitive growth spurt Melee had when wavedashing became a huge deal. Like it or not, it actually got people talking about and playing Melee more, even if they were in opposition. Just think about how many then relapsed players must have fired up the game to see what the fuss was about.

Back to the point at hand, the biggest type of players left to pickup are relapsed ones, which is one way Project M could achieve what appears to be outside growth. Also, lets image for a minute you never heard of a Smash mod before, liked Melee and Brawl, but haven't played them in a while. Then you see an article topic like this:

"Project M One-Ups Nintendo With Smash Bros. Mod"

I can't help but be reminded of when Melee's major controversy started. You don't necessarily have to like Project M to recognize this sort of press can bring people back to the game for a second run. Even bad press is good press in this situation, and I'm sure when it is actually released, there will be quite a bit more of both.

Oh no I like Project M (though the attitude of some of the developers is meh), what I meant was P:M won't prevent casual players from being able to get into competitive smash like Steam was suggesting, since it won't ever be the "main game" (which will be Brawl until smash4 comes out)

 

[Steam]

I'm just saying if project M replaced brawl as the standard, casual players would have a lot harder time getting into it since almost none of them played the game. casual players come along and enter the scene half the time because they think they're good at brawl because they're the best in their group of friends... but then they come and the standard is some random hack game that they have never played before...

 

[El Duderino]

I'm just saying if project M replaced brawl as the standard, casual players would have a lot harder time getting into it since almost none of them played the game. casual players come along and enter the scene half the time because they think they're good at brawl because they're the best in their group of friends... but then they come and the standard is some random hack game that they have never played before...

Lets get one thing straight, if you are so inclined to come here and start looking up strategies or how your skills stack up for a 4 year old game, you are no longer a part of that casual crowd. Also, it's not like PM is completely foreign territory for most smash fans here.

I don't think any new or returning Brawl player will come here to find the game they know completely replaced. They might instead wonder first where a chunk of the activity went, why a Mod is gaining so much interest, and then draw their own conclusions.