Why isn't Brawl+ the competitive standard?

[El Duderino]

If anything I'm disappointed they applied these things to a perfectly fine character. but then again it's not like they can make new characters to give those properties to. eh.

Who knows, there is a good chance they tried. Like you mentioned earlier, Lucario as is, is not necessarily suited for Melee style play.

and yes diversity is good... I just feel like adding things like supers... are just things not meant for smash. you CAN give a game too much.

That's basically how I felt about smash balls. The series has never been about character screen sized super moves. It didn't feel right to me when they were pushing it as the next big feature. Thankfully it's not the only way to play. I guess though it all comes down the extent it will alter the game for me. If Lucario's super and combo ability are incredibly easy to build up and pull off, that's a problem for me. If the super is too powerful, that is also an issue. Same if his strength is not balanced accordingly.

If this video is anything to go by, Lucario's combos can be broken, the super happens about once for every stock, and is easily avoidable. Of course there is no telling what might happen when someone becomes dangerously good with the new Lucario, or what the final Lucario will play lake.

but I might tinker around with Mcario... though he seems like a character they'll have to crush with the nerf brick once people figure out how to use all of the tools they gave him.

Only time will tell.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't see how M Lucario is a Ryu clone. By that logic, Morrigan in Darkstalkers is a Ryu clone because she has a fireball and Ryu's DP.

And besides, the chains make him truly unique in a game where they don't exist outside of AAA moves. Quite frankly, I'd like that in an actual Smash game as it can allow better diversity and potentially actual combos.

From a guy who mains Ryu in SF and mains Lucario, looking at what they are doing in Project M. They are deliberately going for that route and he is getting a lot of moves to be similar to them.

He isn't gonna have the same links or combos etc. because of how smash works but his moveset is being geared towards a Ryu clone like one.

~

Just a heads up for people who don't know how Lucario works, he did have combos in vBrawl, Mcario is nothing like him from what I have seen. They reworked how he plays from the ground up. I didn't think it was hard to transfer any of that over but hey they can do what they want since it is there hack.

Though I am holding to the sentiment that Lucario is not entirely suited to be a shoto though he was made to be one from the ground up.

 

[theram2k4]

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[nLiM8d]

It is too late in the day for ing 2k

He isn't gonna have the same links or combos etc.

Red Ryu, you captured my sentiments perfectly. Mcario does seem to be more tech oriented in this version, which isn't a bad thing. If it helps him fit in properly as a standard MU, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lucario's mechanic may have been unique, but it definitely wasn't good game design or deep at all. It changes his stats based on a variable that your opponent has as much control over as you do, and punishes Lucario when he is doing well while rewarding him when he is doing bad.

If Ryucario was in Brawl from the start, none of you would really be complaining. Learn to accept change, especially in this case where it is for the better (moving away from a fundamentally stupid mechanic towards a fun, cool mechanic).

And Meta Knight isn't game breaking per say. Rule change worthy? Yes. Overpowered? Yes. An unstoppable force like Pikachu in Smash 64. NOOO!!!!!!

This quote is VERY wrong.

Meta Knight breaks the game through planking and is WAY better than Pikachu. Saying Pikachu is an unstoppable force is quite lolzy as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

some people don't like the concept of Lucario in Project M (when there are at least twice as many that love him).
there are things about Brawl a lot of people didn't like and they still play the game competitively (like loltripping). sooooo less QQ more playing

 

[nLiM8d]

Learn to accept change

What a load of Bull****

 

[Grim Tuesday]

its ironic becuz projekt m playas and devz cudnt adapt 2 bawrl hurr durr

Different situation.

PM's fans and developers are supporting it because it gives them an alternative to Brawl (which most of them didn't like). They, the majority of Melee players, feel that Brawl was changed for the worse. It's the equivalent of going to see Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, hating it, and then writing fan-fiction.

Hating on PM because it changes things that the majority agrees is for the better is kind-of silly when you could make your own mod or something similar. This is the equivalent of going to see Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, liking it, and then telling fan fiction writers that they should follow the plot of the film they hate more closely.

 

[nLiM8d]

Dopey's putting words in my mouth wut?

Its painfully obvious that you're the kind of person that functions on surface level processing, but that's not really any of my business.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your heavily detailed post that explained exactly what you believed was bull**** and why.

 

[Strong Badam]

surface level processing?
care to elaborate? because it just seems like the entire second line of your post said nothing.

 

[nLiM8d]

Let nothing be nothing then.

Let me be upset for one post.

 

[Strong Badam]

looked like 2 posts to me

 

[nLiM8d]

Honestly, I can't help what an idiot sees.

But really, that's not whats important right now. Isn't your objective to express the properties of Project M?

 

[Strong Badam]

This thread isn't really about Project M, or at least it shouldn't be. If it has become about PM, then I guess it's just more evidence of Brawl+'s irrelevancy and Project M's presence in the community. =P

 

[Gatlin]

It'd be phenomenal if the hostility could drop a couple notches, please.

 

[nLiM8d]

Of course, because I totally inquired about what the thread's objective is.

So if it's not being worked on does it have enough to justify replacing Brawl or does it not have enough support and backing to get off the ground.

Resolution.

 

[SolarChimecho]

Brawl+ was the faster paced version of vBrawl with few/some Melee sutff but it didnt bring anything completely new to the table unlike PM. With PM in development, i doubt Brawl+ will be coming back from the grave anytime soon sadly.

At least give Brawl+ credit for being the first Brawl hack project. Without Brawl+, i wonder if PM/Brawl-/BBrawl/etc would even exist right now. I really liked Brawl+ :/

 

[Steam]

Lucario's mechanic may have been unique, but it definitely wasn't good game design or deep at all. It changes his stats based on a variable that your opponent has as much control over as you do, and punishes Lucario when he is doing well while rewarding him when he is doing bad.

If Ryucario was in Brawl from the start, none of you would really be complaining. Learn to accept change, especially in this case where it is for the better (moving away from a fundamentally stupid mechanic towards a fun, cool mechanic).

Aura doesn't reward Lucario for losing... it usually punishes him for that. it rewards him for good DI/ clutch play. There is stock aura, but without it lucario would never be able to win once he fell behind in stock because he wouldn't have kill power til... like he was almost about to lose his next stock.

and I do not think this change is for the better... it takes out the fun of reading DI in combos and instead just focuses on mashing combos out and guessing their DI if they can even DI out. only really cool things they added IMO are the Ftilt and sideB grab in the air. that and the upB cancel with "meter".

and if Ryucario was in brawl from the start. I'd be in that group of people desperately wanting mewtwo back because he'd be just a blatant ripoff with no individuality. in this case it's frustrating because he HAD that and they took it away...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario's mechanic may have been unique, but it definitely wasn't good game design or deep at all. It changes his stats based on a variable that your opponent has as much control over as you do, and punishes Lucario when he is doing well while rewarding him when he is doing bad.

Is it any different from X factor? How the Ultra meter works in SF4? One of which last as long as how many characters you have alive, the other is based on damage you take in.

Why does it matter if he gets stronger with more damage? Because that is how he works with kill power.

Depth means nothing to me since he wasn't being made to be some super amazing dpethy character, just one that worked with a Qi fighting style and had Aura which he is known for working in a way that matches what he is. Aura is life basically, so closer to death the more his aura works to protect him from death.

It's not bad game design.

If Ryucario was in Brawl from the start, none of you would really be complaining. Learn to accept change, especially in this case where it is for the better (moving away from a fundamentally stupid mechanic towards a fun, cool mechanic).

Maybe, but this isn't the case.

And I disagree with it being stupid.

some people don't like the concept of Lucario in Project M (when there are at least twice as many that love him).
there are things about Brawl a lot of people didn't like and they still play the game competitively (like loltripping). sooooo less QQ more playing

I'm sure you have a poll for this to prove this.

If not a way to show these people actually know how he plays in vBrawl, which from what I've seen have no clue how he plays or his Aura even works.

Last time I brought this up, people were still telling me the silly his range gets bigger stuff that was dis proven since 08'.

 

[UltiMario]

What would be wrong with having Lucario actually have a solid damage output and good kill potential, and being rewarded for getting hits in rather than getting hit himself?

Being rewarded for getting hit makes far less sense than being rewarded for hitting the opponent, especially if you HAVE to get hit so you can KO below the high 100%s.

While it does change Lucario drastically, it's basically superior in every way. ESPECIALLY in something as fast paced as Melee: in a game where you can just be shined to death and not live very long to get your boost, everything has higher kill power, and combos are long and lethal. It sort of works in Brawl because you CAN live like forever and deal ridiculous amounts of damage, but no way in Melee.

 

[Steam]

even in brawl aura is a double edged sword. and he'd be terrible with aura in melee because everything dies really early.

Initially they had normalized his damage and turned his DownB into Swords Dance which powered him up for a little bit. but then Lucario got cut for ryu.

The super system doesn't bother me as much though TBH. It's out of place but I have no gripes with it. It also kinda fixes his otherwise useless melee recovery. hell the OHC system doesn't even bother me thaaaaat badly, it's that they blatantly went out of their way to turn him into a ryu clone, animations and all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What would be wrong with having Lucario actually have a solid damage output and good kill potential, and being rewarded for getting hits in rather than getting hit himself?

Because that is not how he works, his playstyle was made with Aura in mind.

Being rewarded for getting hit makes far less sense than being rewarded for hitting the opponent, especially if you HAVE to get hit so you can KO below the high 100%s.

Why?

If a character is built to work like that, why is it non nonsensical? If he is built to work like that then is makes perfect sense.

Meters, even ones that solely build of you taking damage, are not uncommon.

While it does change Lucario drastically, it's basically superior in every way. ESPECIALLY in something as fast paced as Melee: in a game where you can just be shined to death and not live very long to get your boost, everything has higher kill power, and combos are long and lethal. It sort of works in Brawl because you CAN live like forever and deal ridiculous amounts of damage, but no way in Melee.

It's not superior it is different in a subjective style.

Who cares if he could be shined to death, or could die early you could always lower the bar of where aura capes and he would be fine.

You could easily have it work in Melee, it's not hard.

even in brawl aura is a double edged sword. and he'd be terrible with aura in melee because everything dies really early.

Initially they had normalized his damage and turned his DownB into Swords Dance which powered him up for a little bit. but then Lucario got cut for ryu.

The super system doesn't bother me as much though TBH. It's out of place but I have no gripes with it. It also kinda fixes his otherwise useless melee recovery. hell the OHC system doesn't even bother me thaaaaat badly, it's that they blatantly went out of their way to turn him into a ryu clone, animations and all.

This is probably what bother me, despite me liking shotos and Ryu in particular.

 

[Revven]

and I do not think this change is for the better... it takes out the fun of reading DI in combos and instead just focuses on mashing combos out and guessing their DI if they can even DI out. only really cool things they added IMO are the Ftilt and sideB grab in the air. that and the upB cancel with "meter". .

I don't quite understand you, but it just seems like you're not understanding the mechanic at all.

People can DI out of the moves Lucario does and Lucario does have to read and follow their DI. You won't find much success in "mashing" (as you call it), the character is difficult to pick up and actually play correctly and spot on in every match. He's like Fox but on a completely different technical level.

For this reason, you need to set aside your pre-conceived notions from what you may have watched and actually play the character when he is available. While the inspirations may have been from Street Fighter, he is still unique to the Smash series.

If we really wanted to make him completely like Ryu, his Nair would move horizontally on its own when you do it, his Usmash would make him actually move forward a bit instead of staying completely in the same spot, his Aura Sphere would be multi-hit, and etc. But we didn't, the character is still Lucario just with similar looking animations to Ryu. Not to mention, he can do things Ryu can't do such as jump cancel his Usmash when he successfully connects with it.

He didn't lose that "individuality" you keep mentioning.

And really, the whole meter and super stuff it's really not anything on the level of Smash Balls or what actual supers are in Street Fighter. The only move that remotely even can be said is a super is his Aura Sphere that he can use when he gets a meter. Which even then isn't that abnormal at all, it's just a slower and bigger Aura Sphere. The other specials don't turn out like that, they are either just enhanced attributes (Side B being stronger) or allow you to cancel them as if they are an EX Cancel (Up B) and are very balanced as you can only use them when you have meter which is essentially the complete opposite of Aura from Brawl (50% damage dealt to the opponent, you can save it and do another 50% for a total of 100% for two charges) and have to use them at the right time. Which means you can't just throw them out right away or necessarily combo into them as soon as possible.

It rewards the player actually approaching and attacking the opponent. I don't think that is out of character for Lucario or makes him lose individuality. It's still basically Aura, just damage dealt to the opponent instead. As it is, Aura was powering Lucario up anyway or even powering him down, acting as if it was a meter without supers and instead focusing on all of his attacks.

As much as I would like to go on and on, you'll just have to wait and see. Lucario is a really interesting and fun character in PM.

 

[Steam]

if you're using OHC there's not too much to reading DI... because you're going to be cancelling your moves the second you land them. that's why I said guessing DI lol. it's in a complete opposite direction from what he was... He actually had a very deep pressure string game in brawl...

sure he didn't lose individuality within smash... but he used to be an individual character like... universally. now he's a wannabe 2d fighting character.

hmmm Ex cancels sounds familiar... I think they might be from a game with this character called ryu.

his upsmash keeps him in the same spot? last time I checked he did a full on shoryuken with his upsmash and he jumped on his own. and nair probably would keep him on the same horizontal level if that would be at all balanced in smash. don't see what was wrong with his old nair though...

 

[Crooked Crow]

Play a different character if you don't like the direction Lucario is heading.

 

[Steam]

that's what I'm going to do if I don't just suck it up. but in that case I'd just... play melee since I'd use ganon otherwise.

Lucario does seem like a character that would be extremely good after awhile. he pretty much got everything tool wise.

but the best traction in the game makes for a ****ty wavedash. lol.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

You can DI the initial hit so lucario still has to read your DI to know the correct move to cancel into, you can't just cancel into whatever you want.

 

[Steam]

You can DI the initial hit so lucario still has to read your DI to know the correct move to cancel into, you can't just cancel into whatever you want.

I totally haven't acknowledged this already.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I totally haven't acknowledged this already.

Sarcasm eh, well I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that you have.

 

[Steam]

oh because reading one post up is too hard.

I dunno why you'd think I'd think Lucario would have some sort of unDIable moves.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

oh because reading one post up is too hard.

I dunno why you'd think Lucario would have some sort of unDIable moves.

I think you have trouble reading above posts, considering I said nothing of the sort, quite the contrary actually.

 

[Steam]

I made a typo with the 2nd part of that post lol. read it again

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Oh wow lol, yeah that really confused me, but yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that you would think that he has unDIable moves, just that if you're using OHC, you still have to read DI. You made it sound like it wasn't important really.

 

[Steam]

OHC is so fast it's more like guesswork... unless you have to DI every hit the same way to get out. then it's just like Lucario's jab game in brawl except it works.

 

[Big-Cat]

What part of any fighting game, aside from combos to a certain extent, isn't guesswork?

And can we stop calling them OHCs? There was already a term years before the Project M team cooked up OHC. It's called chaining.

 

[Steam]

I'm going to call it OHC. because his moves cancel on hit.

and in smash you normally have to read/react to their DI and adjust accordingly. not that much guessing in situations like that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't quite understand you, but it just seems like you're not understanding the mechanic at all.

People can DI out of the moves Lucario does and Lucario does have to read and follow their DI. You won't find much success in "mashing" (as you call it), the character is difficult to pick up and actually play correctly and spot on in every match. He's like Fox but on a completely different technical level.

For this reason, you need to set aside your pre-conceived notions from what you may have watched and actually play the character when he is available. While the inspirations may have been from Street Fighter, he is still unique to the Smash series.

If we really wanted to make him completely like Ryu, his Nair would move horizontally on its own when you do it, his Usmash would make him actually move forward a bit instead of staying completely in the same spot, his Aura Sphere would be multi-hit, and etc. But we didn't, the character is still Lucario just with similar looking animations to Ryu. Not to mention, he can do things Ryu can't do such as jump cancel his Usmash when he successfully connects with it.

He didn't lose that "individuality" you keep mentioning.

And really, the whole meter and super stuff it's really not anything on the level of Smash Balls or what actual supers are in Street Fighter. The only move that remotely even can be said is a super is his Aura Sphere that he can use when he gets a meter. Which even then isn't that abnormal at all, it's just a slower and bigger Aura Sphere. The other specials don't turn out like that, they are either just enhanced attributes (Side B being stronger) or allow you to cancel them as if they are an EX Cancel (Up B) and are very balanced as you can only use them when you have meter which is essentially the complete opposite of Aura from Brawl (50% damage dealt to the opponent, you can save it and do another 50% for a total of 100% for two charges) and have to use them at the right time. Which means you can't just throw them out right away or necessarily combo into them as soon as possible.

It rewards the player actually approaching and attacking the opponent. I don't think that is out of character for Lucario or makes him lose individuality. It's still basically Aura, just damage dealt to the opponent instead. As it is, Aura was powering Lucario up anyway or even powering him down, acting as if it was a meter without supers and instead focusing on all of his attacks.

As much as I would like to go on and on, you'll just have to wait and see. Lucario is a really interesting and fun character in PM.

You realize that his tatsu is still a rip off of Sakuras whose goes at the same angle Lucarios does. So he still is a copy of the shoto style.

You also think him getting hit is poor mechanics in which almost every meter fills up when he get hit like he would in other fighters.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm going to call it OHC. because his moves cancel on hit.

and in smash you normally have to read/react to their DI and adjust accordingly. not that much guessing in situations like that.

Reading is just an educated guess and nothing more.

 

[Pikaville]

Simple answer.

It's a hacked version.