Why isn't Brawl+ the competitive standard?

[Steam]

I don't want to ban him because while he's really damn good, he's definitely not game breaking.

Also he's my favorite character you *** I wanted to main MK since he was in the Brawl trailer "you cheap piece of cheese" (wtf?)

not game breaking. but extremely game bending.

when he takes such a ridiculous amount of money... something is wrong

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well since you continue to talk, it would be nice to hear some reasoning as to why you feel the way you do. I mean, I could just play the game, but its more fun to reach outside my little bubble.

Because there is NOTHING technical in the game. It automatically does L-Cancels for you and there is no wavedashing, every time I do a "combo" it's REALLY basic and doesn't feel like an accomplishment at all.

Smash 64 combos at least have some uniqueness and fun to them because of the insane hitstun, Brawl+ lacks this.

I guess folks outside of Brawl can be stubborn too.

I play Brawl and Melee, actually.

I don't want to ban him because while he's really damn good, he's definitely not game breaking.

He is game breaking, you just can't tell because we've put a rule in to stop him planking.

 

[Strong Badam]

when he takes such a ridiculous amount of money... something is wrong

yea
u ****ers are playing a ****ty game for large sums of money

 

[nLiM8d]

Well, its not like your word is absolute because its how you "feel".

I mean the Auto L canceling and the lack of wave dashing, are their examples of this? And if what you have to say is true, are those tech barriers truly "ground breaking"?

 

[Steam]

yea
u ****ers are playing a ****ty game for large sums of money

it's not so ****ty with MK banned

 

[UltiMario]

Brawl is a ****ty game in general and MK doesn't make it much better or worse.

I think that was sort of the point of this thread

 

[Strong Badam]

it's not so ****ty with MK banned

so what you're saying is that the game is suddenly better after you ban an ENTIRE TIER of characters?

 

[Comeback Kid]

Even the brawl community isn't sure if brawl is a good game or not! That's why there's so much fighting about basic gameplay rules 4 years into the games lifespan. Some of these rules actually ban things your character can do in the game, like the number of ledge grabs for god's sake. That's too much!

Once Melee found a simple set of competitive settings this was never an issue. That game works well without fiddling with things too much.

Any johns about "ban this or that and the game is great" is just a smokescreen that ignores the heart of the matter: Is brawl a good game, yes or no? No excuses.

 

[nLiM8d]

That is a ridiculous sentiment if I've ever seen one.

 

[JOE!]

so what you're saying is that the game is suddenly better after you ban an ENTIRE TIER of characters?

well, it'd be banning a tier that only has 1 member to it...

 

[Strong Badam]

thank you captain obvious, that was the joke.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

As much as I hate MK, and want to see him banned, the sad truth is that he IS
beatable. No excuses. He can lose, so its not about the charecter( I wish it was ), its
about the skill of the player against the MK and his knowledge of the matchup.


Regardless....................... BAN THE LITTLE MONSTER!!!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Figures this turned out this way, guess this is what happened around here a lot.

~

So about Brawl+.

How is it's development going recently? I mean if people wanted it to be a standard then it would need enough to it to get going and catch attention more then vBrawl.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brawl+ isn't being developed anymore.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So if it's not being worked on does it have enough to justify replacing Brawl or does it not have enough support and backing to get off the ground.

Because this is what I feel like it is like for all hack anyways. Project M is the closest people will get to it probably for a supported hack.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well it's like
Why play brawl+ when Project M is on the way?

 

[Steam]

why worry about project M when you have melee right now? >_>

and brawl is a pretty fine game without MK IMO. non MK matches are pretty hype and interesting... as rare as they are on streams.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

Both games are great, pretty hyped for project M though.

 

[El Duderino]

why worry about project M when you have melee right now? >_>

Same reason we all were exited for Brawl, the hope of playing an even better game.

I think the better question is why not? There is enough new to try, even in the Demo, to hold someones interested who is a fan of the series in general. I have a hard time believing even those dead against the project could play it without having any new fun.

 

[Johnknight1]

I played Brawl+ a few times, and it was a pretty fun mod, but I didn't see it as very competitive. I think a non-modded Brawl is deeper and better than it. It was just too Melee wanna-be-ish, and didn't bring anything new to the series.

If I want to play Brawl like Melee, then just completely copy Melee's physics, instead of getting stuck in no man's land.

And Meta Knight isn't game breaking per say. Rule change worthy? Yes. Overpowered? Yes. An unstoppable force like Pikachu in Smash 64. NOOO!!!!!!

Balanced Brawl definitely should be more of a side-show on the tournament scene. That Brawl mod is excellent, and really addresses issues in the game and changes them for the better.

 

[El Duderino]

I played Brawl+ a few times, and it was a pretty fun mod, but I didn't see it as very competitive. I think a non-modded Brawl is deeper and better than it. It was just too Melee wanna-be-ish, and didn't bring anything new to the series.

I can understand an opinion that standard Brawl is better, just not deeper. The depth is relatively the same, Brawl+ has the physics and pacing that allows for more offensive opportunities, whereas Standard Brawl (and BB) punishes that sort play making it more defensive. The issue with both is for every one step forward, there are two steps back. It gives each a stunted, wish-washy feel rather than the progression forward we normally expect from sequels or revamps.

Not saying that either are bad games, just that in both cases making a deeper Smash game compared to Melee was not the priority.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Standard Brawl (and BB) punishes that sort play making it more defensive. The issue with both is for every one step forward, there are two steps back. It gives each a stunted, wish-washy feel rather than the progression forward we normally expect from sequels or revamps.

Not saying that either are bad games, just that in both cases making a deeper Smash game compared to Melee was not the priority.

The Dude is right. I would go one step further than him however and say the reason Brawl+ failed (ignoring standard community whining and the bad out of bounds code) is because it also felt wishy-washy in its approach and development. Letting armchair quaterbacks balance ur game is a big no-no.

The reason Project: M is succeeding in the community is because it feels new. The team is being bold and really making interesting playstyles, unlike other mods which are frankly too scared of backlash to actually make the game better beyond the fun broken stuff. P: M is both really fun and really balanced, so both casuals and pros should take a liking to it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well it's like
Why play brawl+ when Project M is on the way?

Well competition with hacks, still what does it have over the other ones?

Same reason we all were exited for Brawl, the hope of playing an even better game.

I think the better question is why not? There is enough new to try, even in the Demo, to hold someones interested who is a fan of the series in general. I have a hard time believing even those dead against the project could play it without having any new fun.

I can understand an opinion that standard Brawl is better, just not deeper. The depth is relatively the same, Brawl+ has the physics and pacing that allows for more offensive opportunities, whereas Standard Brawl (and BB) punishes that sort play making it more defensive. The issue with both is for every one step forward, there are two steps back. It gives each a stunted, wish-washy feel rather than the progression forward we normally expect from sequels or revamps.

Not saying that either are bad games, just that in both cases making a deeper Smash game compared to Melee was not the priority.

I like you a lot.

Please stick around more.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

It's difficult to bring anything new to the serious that isn't balanced or broken.

 

[Comeback Kid]

It's difficult to bring anything new to the serious that isn't balanced or broken.

New animations, entirely new moves, and brand new mechanics (think P: M Lucario) are possible with the right talent behind it.

It's kinda boring if all a mod wants to do is make a character stupidly broken or just tone down their stupid qualities without giving them something NEW to compensate. If your gonna go for it go for broke.

 

[Steam]

Project M Lucario is pretty much... the pinnacle of why I don't like project M... take a perfectly unique character/playstyle and make him a ryu clone... cool. now he's just so out of place he's hardly a smash character :/

 

[Zzuxon]

Project M Lucario is pretty much... the pinnacle of why I don't like project M... take a perfectly unique character/playstyle and make him a ryu clone... cool. now he's just so out of place he's hardly a smash character :/

Ryu is not in brawl, but he's not too different, just the air grab, and nair, and that spirit bomb thing.

 

[UltiMario]

take a perfectly unique character/playstyle and make him a ryu clone... cool. now he's just so out of place he's hardly a smash character :/

So having a character that is punished for playing well is better than having a character with the most unique playing style in all of Smash that gets tons of rewards for getting hits in?

Keep telling yourself that, bro.

 

[Steam]

not punished too much for playing well. he just rewards clutch play.

and I'm not saying Mcario isn't unique... I just don't agree with making him such a ripoff... I mean on hit cancels are cool... but specifically changing his animations to make him like ryu is just... ugh.

I guess I'm just salty they cut lucario for ryu in project M. lol.

but either way, I'll just... play melee since there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[nLiM8d]

I see that Steam, no need to apologize for your saltiness.

I figure that its all an attempt to reach that stepping stone of a game 'beyond' Brawl. As so many here have expressed, it is apparently an important goal to reach in order to obtain a competitive "standard"

In some cases that isn't a good thing because development can go too far, try too hard for something that is otherwise well established.

I think its good that you have settled on a sect that is comfortable to you. Regardless of other people's concerns, they can't take that you enjoy melee away from you.

 

[Big-Cat]

Project M Lucario is pretty much... the pinnacle of why I don't like project M... take a perfectly unique character/playstyle and make him a ryu clone... cool. now he's just so out of place he's hardly a smash character :/

I don't see how M Lucario is a Ryu clone. By that logic, Morrigan in Darkstalkers is a Ryu clone because she has a fireball and Ryu's DP.

And besides, the chains make him truly unique in a game where they don't exist outside of AAA moves. Quite frankly, I'd like that in an actual Smash game as it can allow better diversity and potentially actual combos.

 

[nLiM8d]

Of course you would put in those terms because that's how you've experienced the genre.

From the outside looking however, its easy to spot what Mcario was inspired by, and lets face it, the majority of lookie loos aren't as 'technical' in their experiences.

Quite frankly, I'd like that in an actual Smash game as it can allow better diversity and potentially actual combos.

That is the only statement I respect from that segment.

 

[Steam]

I don't see how M Lucario is a Ryu clone. By that logic, Morrigan in Darkstalkers is a Ryu clone because she has a fireball and Ryu's DP.

And besides, the chains make him truly unique in a game where they don't exist outside of AAA moves. Quite frankly, I'd like that in an actual Smash game as it can allow better diversity and potentially actual combos.

and his nair being remade into tatsu... animation and everything.

and ex cancels....

and when he already had a working moveset that was unique....

and it's one thing to make him similar with animations... but giving him things like on hit cancels and the "supers" are just... :I

and there are actual combos in melee (and brawl)... you don't need on hit cancels for that. personally, I'd rather have to read DI after each hit rather than just mash it out... that's a concept that smash is built on...

 

[El Duderino]

Project M Lucario is pretty much... the pinnacle of why I don't like project M... take a perfectly unique character/playstyle and make him a ryu clone... cool. now he's just so out of place he's hardly a smash character :/

So they gave him a better looking uppercut, changed his N air to a spin kick, and suddenly he is a Ryu clone?

Aside from these silly aesthetic, surface-deep similarities, the new Lucario is nothing like Ryu. If anything he looks more in in place now than he ever was. That of course though is just my opnion. Everything about Lucario's animations in Brawl would suggest they were trying to fix Mewtwo's shortcomings by making him faster and with more potential to link attacks. The problem is the Brawl engine doesn't exactly lend itself well to the later. The pacing of his play-style, as a result, actually is still pretty close to Mewtwo. Both have attacks that linger with slightly off timing. Sure his move-set changed, but I wouldn't call him a completely unique character, definately not a perfectly unique one.

and when he already had a working moveset that was unique....

Because Project M is not Brawl. It is a new game, so it plays differently. It's the same reason they tweaked some attacks going from Melee to Brawl or 64 to Melee. To give them move-sets that fit, as well as improve the balance. It's not like they are abandoning his play style completely, just trying to find other unique ways to make him up to par with the quicker pacing of the game.

I do understand though change can be scary. Especially when you have invested so much time in learning a character. What you are feeling right now is the same hesitation many Melee players felt about Brawl. You have to make a choice, be open and positive, or dismissive. All I can say is if you choose the later with Project M, don't expect the next Smash installment to be any easier.

and there are actual combos in melee (and brawl)... you don't need on hit cancels for that. personally, I'd rather have to read DI after each hit rather than just mash it out... that's a concept that smash is built on...

That is of course assuming you can't DI out of it. It's one thing to show a combo on a still player at a low percent, it's another to put it into action. Take Shiek for instance and do the same, it looks equally unfair and broken.

 

[Steam]

they also made him work like a 2D fighting game character by giving him on hit cancels and a super system... THAT makes him out of place.

and I'm not going to transition to M because I simply won't play it. and I don't have to worry about a thing since it will never be a tourney standard. I know smash 4 won't have anything that insanely drastic and if they did... I could just keep playing melee/brawl.

you say that project M is a different game... but it's still a part of the smash series (if you can call it that). and no one really likes to see their character completely retooled to mimic a character (that he's already compared to all the time) from another series. I was half looking forward to see what a melee lucario would look like. melee ryu is :/ but that's just my opinion. instead I'll just keep playing ganon in regular melee

but Lucario already had great combo potential for melee hitstun. kinda disappointed we'll never get to see melee lucario. (though he'd probably be terrible due to his recovery, and being a fast faller... and he'd have the worst wavedash due to his traction (sadface))

 

[nLiM8d]

What you are feeling right now is the same hesitation many Melee players felt about Brawl. You have to make a choice, be open and positive, or dismissive.

This isn't my conversation, so I'm not going to be engrossed in the meaning of the discussion as my form of participation. I will recede after I mention that what you are doing aims to tie up loose ends based on your evaluation of his perspective. Try to avoid this 'summing' as you can only speak for yourself and not the status quo of the community's beliefs.

Never will a person 'have' to make a choice on how he/she views the field. It up to them whether or not they are willing to accept certain realities. It's something a person 'gets' to do as a free moral agent.

Other than that point I respect your viewpoints as rather credible, they are certainly reasonable.

 

[El Duderino]

they also made him work like a 2D fighting game character by giving him on hit cancels and a super system... THAT makes him out of place.

I don't see any problem so long as it cannot be abused. If it works, all that means is more diversity to the character, which is fine by me. More diversity is something I believe everyone wants to see in future Smash games anyways. Of course the more you mix things up, the less it is going to feel like the same experience. Whether or not it fits and is better or worse still remains to be seen.

kinda disappointed we'll never get to see melee lucario.

I thought you were not going to play it anyways? Why are you acting disappointed?

Never will a person 'have' to make a choice on how he/she views the field. It up to them whether or not they are willing to accept certain realities. It's something a person 'gets' to do as a free moral agent.

It is all a matter of someone's outlook. I get what you are trying to say, it's not a choice if it comes down to your character as a person. That's who you are and your right. My point was more or less it's easier to resist change when it comes to something you know and love. It's also easier to judge a book by its cover when it doesn't appear to be tailored to your tastes, but you can never really tell until you open it up.

 

[El Duderino]

remove please.

 

[Steam]

If anything I'm disappointed they applied these things to a perfectly fine character. but then again it's not like they can make new characters to give those properties to. eh.

and yes diversity is good... I just feel like adding things like supers... are just things not meant for smash. you CAN give a game too much.

but I might tinker around with Mcario... though he seems like a character they'll have to crush with the nerf brick once people figure out how to use all of the tools they gave him.

 

[nLiM8d]

It's also easier to judge a book by its cover when it doesn't appear to be tailored to your tastes, but you can never really tell until you open it up.

This is why I will be trying Project M. Sometimes you do have to weigh each one for its worth before making a judgement.