Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[adumbrodeus]

... So talking about a topic that bears extreme relevance to the topic at hand, and heck might be the deciding factor on it's own if no other factors were present makes the thread "look like the MK discussion sister thread"?


I strongly suspect that you're just saying that because 99.9% of smashboarders have no clue about law.

 

[Eddie G]

No I say it because you have a knack for drawing out some of the most pointless and lengthy discussions of a subtopic that usually appears out of thin air and it becomes tiresome to watch a thread derail into a circular discussion that practically never ends. And you weren't all that interesting to listen to on the podcast about MK either because of the same kind of reason, granted that's my own opinion on the matter. Overswarm and Omni stuck to the main topic at hand while you occasionally would delve off into some kind of overly-lengthy explanation or comparison to, ironically, something about law and it literally bored the crap out of me enough to skip a considerable amount of the podcast just to get to a more interesting part (you sounding like the guy from the old Clear Eyes commercials didn't help either).

Case in point: Stick to something that more people understand or care to understand. Legality was an ok point to bring up in this discussion, but now it has become the discussion when it's already been made clear that it's a big no-no when MLG or some other major corporation/company is factored in. Why discuss things any further than what is enough to prove a point? It's borderline dawdling and, as I said, only serves to mask a *+1 post count* attempt after so long. This last portion is directed toward everyone, mind you.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Tripping is just one of those features that can either help or not help... Usually not. Obviously it just puts you at a major disadvantage, but I mean... There's nothing we can really do about it. Without using hacks or codes anyway.

What REALLY is irritating, is playing vs Diddy and still tripping randomly. That's just... Frustrating.

 

[Judo777]

I agree that i think the one reason why its a bad idea is just because it can't work. Not everyone would be ok with putting artificial codes on their wii and essentially hacking it for a tournament. I know plenty of people who wont even play on hacked wii's. I personally wont play on a hacked wii if its a matchup that i might pick zelda on. I also dont generally like playing on hacked wiis because it would be impossible to tell if someone went into the game and made snakes tilts have just a tiny but more range than they already do. Just stuff like that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No I say it because you have a knack for drawing out some of the most pointless and lengthy discussions of a subtopic that usually appears out of thin air and it becomes tiresome to watch a thread derail into a circular discussion that practically never ends. And you weren't all that interesting to listen to on the podcast about MK either because of the same kind of reason, granted that's my own opinion on the matter. Overswarm and Omni stuck to the main topic at hand while you occasionally would delve off into some kind of overly-lengthy explanation or comparison to, ironically, something about law and it literally bored the crap out of me enough to skip a considerable amount of the podcast just to get to a more interesting part (you sounding like the guy from the old Clear Eyes commercials didn't help either).

Case in point: Stick to something that more people understand or care to understand. Legality was an ok point to bring up in this discussion, but now it has become the discussion when it's already been made clear that it's a big no-no when MLG or some other major corporation/company is factored in. Why discuss things any further than what is enough to prove a point? It's borderline dawdling and, as I said, only serves to mask a *+1 post count* attempt after so long. This last portion is directed toward everyone, mind you.

My voice doesn't come out well over that format unfortunately, I don't exactly have an inherent radio voice.


Regardless, the point is that this is a concern for the venues, and I'm fine with leaving it at that as long as nobody else challenges this assertion.

 

[Aposl]

If this was done I think it's obvious that the TO would have to provide all of the SD cards

 

[MK26]

except it's not really a circular discussion because adumbrodeus is kinda convincing me that authorizing hacks isnt something that a venue cant be held liable for...whether or not anything will happen if they do is a completely different story, but if Nintendo is as willing to fight for their IP as much as the RIAA is for theirs, i can accept that it's not something they'd be willing to take a chance on.

That said, tripping is still stupid as ****. except for moves that make you trip.

 

[Flayl]

Other fighting games use hitconfirm for their combos, Brawl uses tripconfirm :D

Ok, on topic: I don't think it should be up to the TO to bring ALL the SD cards, he can bring a few, have some people he trust bring some already prepared and then copy-paste the codeset onto the remaining SD cards of the people who volunteered to bring them.

Actually what concerns me most about hacks are the awful awful stage textures that make my eyes hurt or make the ledges too hard to see. But thankfully enough you can turn them off by pulling the SD card out - the no-tripping code will remain.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

if i'm not mistaken... you can also trip when you turn around... maybe everyone should just fight backwards?

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I agree that i think the one reason why its a bad idea is just because it can't work. Not everyone would be ok with putting artificial codes on their wii and essentially hacking it for a tournament. I know plenty of people who wont even play on hacked wii's. I personally wont play on a hacked wii if its a matchup that i might pick zelda on. I also dont generally like playing on hacked wiis because it would be impossible to tell if someone went into the game and made snakes tilts have just a tiny but more range than they already do. Just stuff like that.

I understand your point, and agree. Hacked Wii's would refrain me from traveling to tournaments, out of all honesty.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You only need 1 SD card if you're only running no tripping.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

You only need 1 SD card if you're only running no tripping.

I still wouldn't want to play on a hacked Wii though, personally.

 

[ElDominio]

I say we make trips tech-able........

any takers?

 

[TLMSheikant]

I say we make trips tech-able........

any takers?

I say we ban noobs from our tournaments.

any takers?

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I say we ban noobs from our tournaments.

any takers?

Ouch. Burn. xD

 

[MK26]

I still wouldn't want to play on a hacked Wii though, personally.

Don't think of it as a hacked wii. think of it as an action replay'd wii. Because that's essentially what it is now. if i steal your wii, load up smash stack, play some no-tripping brawl, and ninja it back to where i got it from before you realize it's missing...you'd have no clue anything happened to it. Unless, of course, you looked at the wii's play log. That ****'s permanent.

 

[Veril]

I say we ban noobs from our tournaments.

any takers?

Yeah, its not like the money they pay in entree fees is important or anything.

I still wouldn't want to play on a hacked Wii though, personally.

You'll be horribly scarred by the experience. Trying new things is never a good idea.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, its not like the money they pay in entree fees is important or anything.

well. maybe we'll make them pay but they just can't come in.
they can all gather around in a corner outside and talk about how meta knight sucks and how dairing with toon link is an effective means to get back to the stage faster.

 

[Lore]

Saw this bit on the first page without realizing how far behind it was, but 40 pp ftw.

I agree with you on some things (especially that it's easy to hack wii's now) and that tripping is gay and should be eliminated (except for trip moves.) However, wouldn't this logic also mean we should also play hacked versions of Brawl where the characters are more balanced? If tripping causes disadvantages, shouldn't we take the next step in "fair" gameplay and only play hacks that have a balanced roster (or working towards one) like Brawl+ or Balanced Brawl rather than playing a game with broken and terrible characters? or is that a completely seperate can of worms?

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

Removing tripping and completely changing the main bits of the game are two different things. Taking out tripping is almost like turning off items, but changing to BBrawl or Brawl+ is like changing games. Besides, a lot of people (especially the new, "noob" players who help support tournaments) enjoy VBrawl.

Anyway, my personal opinion on this is that it should be up to the TO. Maybe someone should try running a tournament with no tripping and see how easy it is to set up?

I say we ban noobs from our tournaments.

any takers?

Why don't we ban people with crappy attitudes? Most tournaments wouldn't be able to support themselves without the "noob" players paying their entry fees.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Why don't we ban people with crappy attitudes? Most tournaments wouldn't be able to support themselves without the "noob" players paying their entry fees.

Sorry but that post was meant to be a joke. I know El dom I was just teasing him. I guess I shouldve put "jk" or something.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, its not like the money they pay in entree fees is important or anything.

This. 75% of the entrants may not make it out of pools, but they still contribute 75% of the pot.

You'll be horribly scarred by the experience. Trying new things is never a good idea.

Or, maybe he has philosophical / political reasons (simply being principally opposed to hacking)? Remember: most homebrew programs have a ticket assigned to them. Nintendo can still know that HBC was installed / run on a system long after it's been deleted (unless the whole system is formatted). Even using Smash Stack to activate Gecko can leave behind code traces that Nintendo can use to find out of you've been running homebrew on your console.

 

[Veril]

Hacking brawl harms nobody. That it voids the warranty of the system is irrelevant if the system isn't your. There is no reason to oppose someone else hacking their wii for the purpose of playing modified brawl. Being unwilling to play on someone else's hacked wii is something without any rational explanation. Whether you like or dislike B+, B-, P:M, BBrawl, Brawl without tripping, character or stage textures, infinite unlimited length replays, etc is another matter (though if you like being unable to save matches over 3 minutes...). Hacked wiis have more options, period.

I would argue that hacking your wii is a great idea if your warranty has already expired. Nintendo isn't gonna do s*** to you and there is so much to gain with mods. Being unwilling to play on a hacked wii (regardless of the codes its running) is re-god-d***-diculous.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, that's like telling your anti-piracy friend that he's being a little ***** because he's not torrenting the full 23.5 disc Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just because YOU don't have a problem doing something that's still illegal, doesn't mean others, for purely principle-based reasons, will want to allow action around them or be involved in something that they view to be wrong.

Obviously, you don't think doing something that's illegal is wrong if you truly believe it's a stupid law and/or you get immense gain out of it. Other people don't want to condone that kind of thinking.

This message is brought to you by someone who has hacked his Wii to all hell.

 

[Orion*]

Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, that's like telling your anti-piracy friend that he's being a little ***** because he's not torrenting the full 23.5 disc Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just because YOU don't have a problem doing something that's still illegal, doesn't mean others, for purely principle-based reasons, will want to allow action around them or be involved in something that they view to be wrong.

Obviously, you don't think doing something that's illegal is wrong if you truly believe it's a stupid law and/or you get immense gain out of it. Other people don't want to condone that kind of thinking.

This message is brought to you by someone who has hacked his Wii to all hell.

you understand that. in this situation nobodys pirating anything. so nothing youre talking about really matters.

btw, nintendo doesnt really give a **** about homebrew, as long as you dont rn hacks on online games or get caught with illegal DLs its pretty much fine.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, unless you're a Nintendo PR rep getting his info straight from Reggie, I'll take what you say with a grain of salt...

...you know, since every patch since around March of last year has been used to try and stop homebrew. And, technically, piracy doesn't just involve making copies of games. You're breaking Nintendo's DRM and anti-piracy countermeasures every time you try to run homebrew, so yeah, even running Gecko is (technically) an act of piracy, since you're repurposing Nintendo's OS code to do things they don't want it to do.

 

[Ripple]

logic lost because he did a standing get up. not purely because he tripped. he could have rolled if you watch carefully

 

[Kitamerby]

You only need 1 SD card if you're only running no tripping.

That's only if you force everyone who owns a wii to take off every single custom stage that they own.

If they don't own an SD card, or they want to play Duelist/soccer/etc. during friendlies, that's sort of demanding...

 

[Yikarur]

this thread is fun.

 

[Veril]

This message is brought to you by someone who has hacked his Wii to all hell.

Says it all. Don't you have an issue arguing a point when your actions are so contradictory? I know this is tactical, where people will pointlessly argue anything for the sake of arguing, but usually they at least pretend to believe what they are saying.

I'll have no part in that bull****, no offense.

logic lost because he did a standing get up. not purely because he tripped. he could have rolled if you watch carefully

Getup rolls are beyond terrible. They last quite a while, and you aren't invincible for the majority of the animation. Lain not only could still have grabbed him easily; it would be so easy that I'd be amazed if he whiffed it. As stated in the OP, getup rolls from trip/missed tech are substantially worse than normal rolls or tech-rolls. I would have included more data on roll duration if I were the OP, since merely explaining the inv. frame duration doesn't do justice to how terrible getup rolls are.

The only way Logic could have avoided the grab would have been if Lain dropped his controller or did something incredibly random that kept him in lag for the duration of the getup options.


I meant to respond to Chibosempai's post about difficulty in monitoring hack use, but I think I'm going to have to write up a new thread. Needless to say I've spent a lot of time thinking about this issue for B+ tournaments.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

That's only if you force everyone who owns a wii to take off every single custom stage that they own.

If they don't own an SD card, or they want to play Duelist/soccer/etc. during friendlies, that's sort of demanding...

Going back to this, not everyone wants to play on a hacked Wii... I wouldn't...

 

[Lore]

Going back to this, not everyone wants to play on a hacked Wii... I wouldn't...

Why wouldn't you play on someone else's hacked Wii? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Wii itself, and there aren't any legal issues to worry about.

If you can give me a legitimate reason, I'm ok with it. Until I hear one from you, I'll continue to question your decision.

 

[Yikarur]

who needs hacks, when you just can play normally? :D

 

[6Mizu]

I always thought tripping needed ban. Why are we discussing it soooo late?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Going back to this, not everyone wants to play on a hacked Wii... I wouldn't...

lol, horribad reason is horrible.

 

[AvaricePanda]

A very legitimate concern that I believe hasn't been answered is:

How do you prevent people from adding in other codes with their hacked Wiis? This kinda brings up the issue of people using hacked Wiis for texture and music hacks for tournament in the first place.

2) What about sneaking in extra modifications with the no tripping rule, such as MK doing less damage or Falco's lasers doing 1% more or not decaying? I heard from pretty reliable sources that you can't check every code you add on, and even if you could, there's a possibility for TOs to cheat and add them anyway for their own benefit or overlook a Wii that already has those hacks.

(this brings up another concern about using texture hacked wiis for tournament as they could have those slight codeset changes as well)

 

[6Mizu]

logic lost because he did a standing get up. not purely because he tripped. he could have rolled if you watch carefully

Yes, but a Roll or get-up attack could've lead to his death as well. The point is that tripping can cost a player a match. Which is dumb...

 

[AvaricePanda]

In this video Logic trips...but Lain trips a bunch in the whole match.

You make a common fallacy here that is often made in other sports as well. For example, in basketball, you will see people become belligerent at a bad call/non-call late in a close game with 1 minute left. However, the reality is a non-call/bad call has the same statistical effect on the outcome of the game if it happens in the first minute or 5 minutes. The human pyche just likes to give more weight to an event happening near the close of a game then the beginning, even if both events have the same impact. Lain's IC's tripped far more then Logic did, if anything Logic BENEFITED more from tripping then Lain did. You just don't notice this because of when the tripping happened.

I've never won or lost a match because of tripping.

And you can never blame an entire set loss on a single trip.

I still have other concerns, just saying though.

 

[MK26]

avarice, i thought i responded to that pooint, but all that needs to happen is that the TO commandeers every sd card, backs up whatever's on it, and copies a fresh set of files onto the root.

 

[Jdietz43]

I lol'd that a match I saw IRL is being used for a tripping argument. Logic's giant fro was raging a lil after that one. Personally as Luigi I lol in the face of tripping, since a trip means I just slide at 50 mph into a roll. I don't think I've ever been properly punished from a trip as Luigi.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Says it all. Don't you have an issue arguing a point when your actions are so contradictory? I know this is tactical, where people will pointlessly argue anything for the sake of arguing, but usually they at least pretend to believe what they are saying.

I'll have no part in that bull****, no offense.

Dude... I'm a philosophy major. You can't be a philosophy major if you can't argue a counterpoint to your own arguments; hell, you can't be a good debater if you can't argue counterpoint to your own arguments. Being able to argue counterpoint separates the people who blindly believe something from the people who, you know, actually think about their positions.

That being said, I've hacked my Wii to hell, and I'm still against hacks being a tournament standard; just because I can do something doesn't mean I'm going to force others to do it, too. At least, not without a **** good reason and incredibly good logic. As it stands now, tripping is statistically not a significant factor in enough of our history to warrant considering banning it. Plain and simple.