WHOBO 3!! 3/18-20/2011!! Livestream: http://brawlstream.vgbootcamp.com/

[Player-1]

u cant stop me from fufillin mah dream of beeing bess wifi booser of all time.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The metagame changes towards better plankers and characters than can dislodge them from the easier. Why are we preventing this? Its the natural course of the game, we will either find new counters to most of the plankers or the game will 100% degenerate. If you ban pre-emptively you will never know if there is going to be new counters. Also, losing a match by getting 3 stock then planking and winning is a perfectly legit technique as long as the planking is not overcentralizing vs the whole cast. I didn't see will plank his way to top 3, where you at richbrown, wheres your counterpicking? Your adaptation? Its your job as a player to keep up with these things. Don't blame planking when it only works vs you, don't blame the rules for not banning planking, blame yourself for not coming up with a better way to beat it. As always, expect the unexpected and be able to adapt on the fly.

<3 Swordgard

LOL at this 4chan meme spouting kid with the my little pony avatar trying to take the unpopular position just to be a contrarian when he wasn't even at the tournament

do you have aspergers, man? serious question, it would explain a lot

lol u mad 2

Goes to show you probably have no idea how to play this game

I can't say I'm familiar with the Peach vs. Pit match-up, no. How does that affect my knowledge of the game as a whole?

There's nothing more competitive than letting the game evolve naturally. Those who seek to destroy the integrity of the game because of their subjective perception of "gayness" are what is truly dangerous to the game and the community.

^This^

Let me reiterate what you have just stated.

You ban infinite grabs against DK (which basically makes the matchup 100-0) in DDD's favor, but yet you don't enforce a ledge grab limit (which basically makes one - being olimar - or even more matchups 100-0 in DK's favor)?

When you banned the infinite grab against DK with DeDeDe you allowed DK to have somewhat of a chance in the matchup, therefore Will took out alot of top DeDeDes, because he was the better, smarter, more technical player.

If you never enforce a LGL, RichBrown will never have a chance.

Which sounds more competitive?

Well, the Olimar/DK match-up (hypothetically) becomes un-winnable, which means that RB has to pick up a secondary, which is obviously more competitive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i'd like to see some research done on combating every character's planking before we call it broken lol

DMG had a thread about it for a few characters.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257

 

[The calm tyrant...]

LOL Sooo serious!! I enjoyed the community this weekend, I can't believe I'm reading that not only does the bbr not make our ruleset, but they also have no control over it.... Anyways lol probably won't see you guys for awhile so I'll miss you all. Shoutouts after this planking **** ends. Honestly xyro enforced a rulesut, it was very controversial, so he apologized to rich and rich apologized as well and said he was going to change the ruleset for now on. Problem solved... Chill n1ggas damn. I know how you guys enjoy these intellectual debacles/arguements but let's just be logical and chill on the situation.

 

[RichBrown]

So we're supposed to allow infinites and let DDD **** DK but not let DK (supposedly) beat Olimar by ledge camping?

Olimar ***** DK on stage, we're supposed to have a rule that is practically saying, hey DK, you NEED to fight Olimar where he destroys you, not how you want to

Maybe Rich Brown just doesn't know how to combat ledge camping therefor losing to NOID and Will?

*GASP* Maybe Olimar has a weakness that RB can't deal with?

Perhaps RB should pick up DDD as a secondary to EASILY handle Samus and DK?

The notorious ledge camper would argue this. NO ONE wants to deal with that, and the people who accept it are the ones who don't have the smarts to actually learn the game. I don't understand why any of you would want to watch 8 minute matches of DK planking. And you all wonder why no one takes our game seriously.

Isn't the LGL enforced almost universally? The only possible reason you could be arguing this is because you want to win THAT badly with ROB. A vast majority of the cast literally have NO options against planking. And don't even start to argue how "technically" we can do stuff if we are borderline frame perfect. Ugh didn't we figure out that this was broken at Axis in 2008?

He insulted me hard when I was running my pool, hardcore heckled everyone's matches, (clearly salty) and flipped the **** out when he lost to Will. He made himself look like such an *** and completely humiliated himself, whether he realizes it or not. How can you be a grown *** man, and act like a complete child in front of 100+ people for 2 days straight? Honestly he should quit or pick up MMA or something.

I wish Shlike would've beat his *** TBH.

Let's review facts here before you start name calling, and let me also say I'm surprised that you of all people would wish for someone to get their *** beaten.

You came up to be and very rudely asked me to get off the TV when I was trying to show somebody a ledge trick with Olimar. I told you I wanted to show it to them really fast then I'd get off. Instead of understanding, you unplugged my controller right when I was about to do it and said nothing.

Yes, I was upset about it, and I got in your face. I wish I hadn't, and I apologized immediately after. So why you're still holding onto that is beyond me. I honestly have nothing against you and actually thought you were a nice guy, so do yourself a favor and just let it go, instead of going out of your way to insult me.

Yes, I was loud when cheering for my So Cal friends. I sincerely apologize if anyone I cheered against took it personally. I also made sure to say something to the opposing player after every match, congratulated them on their win (because no one I cheered for won LOL) and let it go.

Like I said earlier, I guarantee that any one of you would have been very, very upset if you were me. I paid $317 bucks for a plane ticket alone (and probably another $100 at least for food, gas, Con pass, etc), took time out of some important things going on in my life to go to compete in this event (which I've worked my @SS off to get to the level I'm at) only to lose to a completely BS technique that is banned at virtually every other tournament. That's not something anyone can just get up and be ok with.

I wish I hadn't gotten in Will's face (from what I can remember, I basically said that what he did is disgraceful and that I hope he feels awful about what he did, and I was cheering pretty hard against him in his later matches, which I will admit was questionable) but we spoke later, and we pretty much both felt bad about what we did, and everything is fine between Will and I.

Xyro personally apologized to me for the way the ruleset was (really big of you man I appreciated that so much and I forgive you) and also said he would be changing the ruleset for all future tournaments. So there's really no future discussion here.

TL;DR: Planking will kill the community if we allow it. I'm sorry if any of you were offended by my cheering, I promise you it's not personal, and it's just a so cal thing. I repeat, it's NOT personal. I'm sorry to Will for reacting that harshly, although it was somewhat warranted because that was REALLY dumb lol. Xyro, Will, we cool. Esca, chill out bro it's all good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

have you seen chibo play in the last 2-3 months? he doesnt ledge camp anymore, and I can give you video proof of that.

so fall back on those assumptions brah.

p.s. i would love to watch ANYBODY plank your balls off.

 

[HugS™]

So we're supposed to allow infinites and let DDD **** DK but not let DK (supposedly) beat Olimar by ledge camping?

Olimar ***** DK on stage, we're supposed to have a rule that is practically saying, hey DK, you NEED to fight Olimar where he destroys you, not how you want to

Maybe Rich Brown just doesn't know how to combat ledge camping therefor losing to NOID and Will?

*GASP* Maybe Olimar has a weakness that RB can't deal with?

Perhaps RB should pick up DDD as a secondary to EASILY handle Samus and DK?

Honestly, it's this type of mentality that is ruining what little competitive value this game has. It's this type of mentality that has this whole thread in an uproar against what the BBR is doing. It's this kind of mentality that was prevalent in the BBR when I was a member.

You guys always try to boil the game down to situational solutions to these near broken strategies. These solutions don't deepen gameplay, they only make things centralized and shallow.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Isn't the LGL enforced almost universally? The only possible reason you could be arguing this is because you want to win THAT badly with ROB. A vast majority of the cast literally have NO options against planking. And don't even start to argue how "technically" we can do stuff if we are borderline frame perfect. Ugh didn't we figure out that this was broken at Axis in 2008?

Xyros argument is that only MKs planking cant be stopped but other characters planking can be stopped by certain characters, and he strongly believes smash is a game of CPing characters/stages. just passing on the message, not taking his side I already said my thoughts on this.

I hardly see Allan planking people with Samus in tournament matches, much less even entering regular singles events. He pretty much only enters low tier stuff lol. So don't think he enforces rules to help him place better lol

 

[Lovage]

LOL at this 4chan meme spouting kid with the my little pony avatar trying to take the unpopular position just to be a contrarian when he wasn't even at the tournament

do you have aspergers, man? serious question, it would explain a lot

ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


TYPH

we've all been wondering the same thing

 

[CT Chia]

way more than 2-3 months lol. go watch any half way recent match, this whole image of me as the notorious ledge camper is nonsense. iv been in LGL and no LGL events, and have hosted both. do my placements change? hardly lol. do i care? no.

However I can certainly realize some extreme situations, so I can more or less back a universal LGL if it's very high, something like 70 or w/e.

but i mean come on rich, why the hell would you not ban yoshi's island vs will? and you won game 1 right? so something was fine then right? get the advantage on dk (which I might as well add is VERY easy vs a large character when you have your overB pikmin through that goes through shields) and let him ledge camp all he wants. or learn a secondary for characters that can plank you well.

 

[lain]

ilu tyrant ;]

will can't be blamed for what he did. no LGL limit at a tournament means anyone CAN and WILL use it and shouldn't be berated for doing so. the problem lies with the TO (which has already been rectified), so either put it up or expect a ****storm lol

 

[HugS™]

way more than 2-3 months lol. go watch any half way recent match, this whole image of me as the notorious ledge camper is nonsense. iv been in LGL and no LGL events, and have hosted both. do my placements change? hardly lol. do i care? no.

However I can certainly realize some extreme situations, so I can more or less back a universal LGL if it's very high, something like 70 or w/e.

but i mean come on rich, why the hell would you not ban yoshi's island vs will? and you won game 1 right? so something was fine then right? get the advantage on dk (which I might as well add is VERY easy vs a large character when you have your overB pikmin through that goes through shields) and let him ledge camp all he wants. or learn a secondary for characters that can plank you well.

Or stop trying to tell people to pick up shallow strategies that revolve around solving 1 problem that shouldn't exist to begin with.

You can make the game deeper by getting rid of LGL, or you can go along with a f***ed up interpretation of Serlin's teachings and think you're doing the competitive community a favor by allowing such nonsense.

 

[gallax]

why does most of the BBR encourage driving the competitive aspect of the game away, as well as new players that may be interested in the game - while 85% of the smash community wants to do the exact opposite?

This is something misconstrued. Although i am highly against the strategy of planking to win, i believe, as well as a lot of BBR members, that it is an area of the game that has yet to be mostly understood. For all we know will's planking could have been beatable by olimar, but RB could have been doing it the wrong way the entire time.

If everyone is so strongly against a NO LGL and planking then come up with evidence that proves your point as to why its uncompetitive and present your case to us with facts and proofs.

what the **** are you all good for then?

The ruleset is the staple of the game competitively.

that is pretty ignorant, and sounds like a dictatorship if you ask me.

"oh let's just make our own rules and not let any of the players have any say in it whatsoever"

This is something that a lot of the BBR members had a hard time swallowing, including myself. I am the TO organizer for CFL and a BBR member and a respectable player in terms of skill yet they chose not to include me in the decision making. They chose a select few, some of whom im totally against being in there over myself and others. It was very poorly put together and im still at an outrage for it, yet ive kept my mouth shut because my opinion is muff cabage currently

Honestly, it's this type of mentality that is ruining what little competitive value this game has. It's this type of mentality that has this whole thread in an uproar against what the BBR is doing. It's this kind of mentality that was prevalent in the BBR when I was a member.

You guys always try to boil the game down to situational strategies that don't deepen gameplay, they only make things centralized and shallow.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The only thing is that we have so many people who argue that it doesnt over-centralize because less than 10% of matches go to time and very few people actually implement this strategy as well as there being no indisputable proof that its a broken strategy.

 

[z00ted]

Honestly, it's this type of mentality that is ruining what little competitive value this game has. It's this type of mentality that has this whole thread in an uproar against what the BBR is doing. It's this kind of mentality that was prevalent in the BBR when I was a member.

You guys always try to boil the game down to situational solutions to these near broken strategies. These solutions don't deepen gameplay, they only make things centralized and shallow.

I agree completely.

HugS the man.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Xyro knows about this is probably why he did it for MK only.

UPDATE: Some more confirmation concerning MK.

"As an MK main and frame expert, I'm really upset that this exists.


MK perfect Planking (input maps and data)

00 : 00 : dash input from edge
01 : 98 : hold a-stick forward
02 : 96 : initiate FF (a-stick down)
05 : 89 : hold a-stick towards ledge
06 : 90 : MK ledge snap initiates
12 : 80 : flashing "intangible" animation start
30 : 50 : earliest ledge drop input
31 : 48 : ledge drops earliest, input up-air
33 : 45 : earliest up-air hits
44 : 26 : input second up-air / dimensional cape
46 : 23 : optional second up air hits
51 : 15 : flashing "intangible animation end
52 : 13 : no longer inv. (tested and accurate)
57 : 05 : "choice planking option" input
58 : 03 : FAF from second up-air

MK's earliest QC ledgehog initiates "snap" animation frame 6
invincibility does not deprecate after a ledgedrop
MK has 21 frames invincibility from ledge drop input, this is not counting invincibility on the ledge.

As you can see, planking ***** math and the game. You don't actually even need to be CLOSE to frame perfect for this to be unpunishable. Basically you just need to be conscious, ie not in a coma.

Tested several frame perfect options for beating out Planking including desynch ice-blocks. No option works on any of the neutral-neutrals (not the MLG crap stages), except Yoshi's story if MK chooses to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Desynch ice-blocks cannot be arced to even potentially land a hit if MK doesn't literally put himself directly in the path of them. No explosive can hit him from the stage. He has an option to avoid ANY projectile or item drop with over choice reaction time frames to choose the optimal (obvious and easy generally) means of avoiding said projectile/item. No character at the ledge can possibly punish this with any aerial or special due to the combination of transcendent priority, invincibility, and an effectively unlimited recovery.

Even frame-perfect PS to ledgesnap will not allow for punishing MK. Dimensional Cape allows for a safe return to the stage OR to the ledge. He cannot nado back onstage from a FF up-air x2 but he can from a non-FF up-air. Shuttle loop, drill rush, dimensional cape, gliding under the stage, and nair/uair/fair give him an option to respond to any antiplanking measure either with no hits exchanged or more commonly with the opponent losing a stock.

Not even MK can beat out perfect planking MK."

Contribution by Veril.

This changes things slightly. I expected there to be at least 1 somewhat viable option, or PS to edge grab to be at least a road block for MK to hurdle over, but it's not. Most shocking is that MK himself cannot stop it.

 

[Esca]

You lost all respect from me from the beginning, and im not talking about your socal friends. You know who you were insulting and they can bring it up if they may.

 

[HugS™]

You lost all respect from me from the beginning, and im not talking about your socal friends. You know who you were insulting and they can bring it up if they may.

LOL nah, I absolutely have zero idea where you're coming from...
Oh well then.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Probably cause he's talking to RichBrown

 

[infomon]

If you never enforce a LGL, RichBrown will never have a chance.

lol

i'd like to see some research done on combating every character's planking before we call it broken lol

THANK YOU!

sounds like a dictatorship if you ask me.

Are you new here?

 

[Trent]

LOL nah, I absolutely have zero idea where you're coming from...
Oh well then.

Mis-communication. He was talking to RB I believe.

 

[RichBrown]

Esca I legitimately have no idea what you're talking about. If you wanna speak about it privately then by all means hit me up because I'm trying to clear the air here, and I feel like you're going out of your way to be mad at me and continue the drama.

 

[z00ted]

rofl

also "live-topic" thing is sorta cool.

 

[gallax]

I posted and got nijad by a new page for those who want to look at it. Ya'll wanted more bbr in here so read it.

 

[HugS™]

Ah ok, I was confused cuz he definitely called me a moron. Thought he was referring to me in that post LOL

 

[GimR]

For people wondering about Dk's planking:

If DK Planks perfectly his head will be vulnerable for 6 frames(His Arms will be invincible the whole time)

so in theory a pikmen fsmash aimed at his head should hit. IMO Olimar has one of the best options to stop plankers(His F-smash).

So Rich Brown, you gotta work on your plank game

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For people wondering about Dk's planking:

If DK Planks perfectly his head will be vulnerable for 6 frames(His Arms will be invincible the whole time)

so in theory a pikmen fsmash aimed at his head should hit. IMO Olimar has one of the best options to stop plankers(His F-smash).

So Rich Brown, you gotta work on your plank game

He'd still have to correctly predict when these 6 frames occur as 6 frames is lower than human reaction time. Not to mention that 6 frames is a minimal window that's hard to legitimately abuse.

 

[Suspect]

invincibility doesnt cover the whole body?

frames dont matter as much in brawl as the bbr tries to make it seem like it does..just them trying to make it seem like a fighting game

 

[Chuee]

This is so epic
I don't have to refresh page to see new posts =O

 

[GimR]

He'd still have to correctly predict when these 6 frames occur as 6 frames is lower than human reaction time. Not to mention that 6 frames is a minimal window that's hard to legitimately abuse.

no, it takes about 56 frames total for DK to do this each time but the last 6 frames you can hit him. so you'd have about a second to react. If a DK does it 185 times the whole match then you should be able to learn the timing before the end

 

[NO-IDea]

I find it hilarious that Esca would impose bad fortune on others after his event.

I respect Rich Brown for apologizing to the players he antagonized. He still needs to work on managing that anger though.

For the record, I am 100% sure I didn't hit 35 LGLs against RB. The matches were no where near time-outs. I stayed on the ledge until he attempted to f-smash with a bad pikmin and got back on. The planking issue should not have my name involved.

 

[z00ted]

I'm backing NOID up, I played him alot and he was nowhere close to the amount of planking that Xyro has shown me.

 

[clowsui]

For people wondering about Dk's planking:

If DK Planks perfectly his head will be vulnerable for 6 frames(His Arms will be invincible the whole time)

so in theory a pikmen fsmash aimed at his head should hit. IMO Olimar has one of the best options to stop plankers(His F-smash).

So Rich Brown, you gotta work on your plank game

no, it takes about 56 frames total for DK to do this each time but the last 6 frames you can hit him. so you'd have about a second to react. If a DK does it 185 times the whole match then you should be able to learn the timing before the end

thank you gimr for providing important data

like all other situations it's important to learn counter-strategies

is it strong for DK? yes

is it unbeatable? nah...not by olimar at least.

 

[RichBrown]

GIMR, that's great that I have a 6 frame window, but DK can merely react to my Fsmash and hit me guaranteed with his getup attack, not to mention I have to space it PERFECTLY. I REALLY wish that everyone would see the bigger picture and recognize that while there are TECHNICALLY things some characters can do about planking, the risk/reward ratio is unplayable. Why are any of you defending planking this hard? Is this really what you want to see with Brawl?

Also, Esca, I do find it interesting that you're picking NOW to bring up all this stuff, instead of telling me this at the venue. Iirc, I even talked to you a bit about some other random things at the venue, and you still chose not to bring anything up until now. Be a man and quit hiding behind your computer.

Edit: Noid: I wish we had checked the LGL after the match, because I honestly felt like there was a LOT of planking going on... but it's hearsay at this point, and regardless I think you woulda beaten me anyways, you were ****** me in friendlies later lol

 

[z00ted]

I would also like to mention that even if RichBrown hit Will off once with his F-smash, Will could have just gone right back, loooool.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I have to wonder if the hitbox on DK's UpB would be large enough to knock away the Pikmin before it connects with DK's head.
I didn't get the chance to see this planking DK. Can he move left or right safely while planking?

BTW. I really had fun at this, even though I was kind of tired the entire time.
It was nice getting to meet so many players and seeing players I haven't seen in a while. ^_^
If I have one regret, it's not playing better against Hylian. Sorry about that. :<

EDIT: Also, I was the Olimar you were showing that tarzan to, Rich. ^^;

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I would also like to mention that even if RichBrown hit Will off once with his F-smash, Will could have just gone right back, loooool.

not when he loses his lead..

 

[z00ted]

Ozz I read that as "head" at first and was laughing so hard.

 

[GimR]

Guys remember. I said in theory, F-smash should connect. I still haven't tested it yet.

 

[.AC.]

and people still refuse to use the tj ruleset? lol

 

[z00ted]

this "live" thing is soooooooooooo cool