Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[Construct]

A new challenger for post of the year appears, as does my morale. Three cheers for PP and Niko, that was awesome :D

 

[Archangel]

Jesus christ pp!!!

 

[Diakonos]

I like PP's points. Nevertheless, I am not sure that it addressed all of Niko's points. I am glad that Marth's good qualities were so well fleshed out, but even after reading the post, I think many of the holes that Niko pointed out are still gaping.

gaaaaaaaaaping

 

[Dr Peepee]

Some of it I was unsure of how to respond to, and some of it I went beyond a regular response to.

This is the problem that arises when I don't respond correctly(aka multiquote a single post) lol, my bad.

Regardless of whether it fully did address all of Niko's points or not, I hope people do take away a little of what I said and alter their mindset accordingly.

With that in mind, what exactly is still "gaping" to you, Diakonos?

 

[danieljosebatista]

PP that was a great post. I tend to agree with your more positive mentality than the school of thought that says marth is a limited character. Above all else, i really like your description of marth as a character that pressures by controlling air space and keeping his opponent guessing

 

[Max?]

Stage Control:

You are correct in saying that, in order to control stage, one must control stage in front of them. However, that is not necessarily a full view of stage control in my opinion. I would say that, in order to effectively control whatever portion of stage one may possess, one must manipulate the space around them effectively by threatening with their available tools(movement and attacks, specifically) in the majority of possible attack areas at the majority of feasible attack timings. Marth, with his long range in both attacks and grabs, fast dash, excellent DD due to a long initial dash, long WD, and relatively quick startup(if not cooldown but that's debatable I suppose) of his moves, it's easy to see that he can control his surroundings and any potential movement into his space well. Dtilt covers ANY grounded approach, with the added benefit of IASA frames for Marth to retreat/approach/attack/defend from. Fair counters MOST aerial approaches(especially retreating Fair), and is relatively safe when used sensibly. Ftilt can cover high and low ranges at a reasonable distance and does not have bad cooldown. Jab is a long range move that starts quickly, interrupts many movement tricks or approaches(important for throwing off timing/momentum), and isn't hurt on cooldown, especially with the possibly of a second jab if needed. Being able to transition from any of these moves into a WD to completely change where all of these big moves can threaten, or being able to DD to intimidate/punish an opponent from that position is quite menacing. As one's punishment game increases, people learn to fear this range/movement game of Marth's as being the precursor to such strong punishment, thereby making them afraid or causing them to question their initial decisions. This is of course human factor side to Marth, but honestly one's goal in games, in addition to winning the matchup, is also to get into the opponent's head.

Marth is not rewarded for mashing tech skill or WoP'ing things. No, Marth's strength lies in how he can CHOOSE whenever he wants to abuse his range against people. If one chooses to execute the same way in a situation over and over, that is much more effective for characters with STAPLE responses or powerful followups(like Falco lasering at something that lags or Peach FC aerial Dsmash'ing something that whiffed an approach or shielded after getting up from the edge). This character is at his best when people know he can outrange any of their decisions AND chase down any escapes but they do not know WHEN he will do it. I would write more here but I want to move on. Maybe another time.


Glass Canon Argument:


Hard combos happen to everyone. Dang it man I've figured out how to hard combo Jigglypuff with Falco now! Marth is FAR less vulnerable to being death comboed than spacies are(I play birdman). I'll give you that he is not exactly a Peach floaty either though. I do believe that he usually isn't going to die in one read or maybe two though(unless they're on solid hits or in solidly bad positions like by the edge). Marth is somewhat floaty you must remember, and even if he isn't in the best of positions after getting out of stun, at least he can get out of stun and have more chances to free himself unlike characters that just die when they get hit. I think more side B tricks, more shield breakers, and more airdodge tricks are things Marths need to be using to recover better. Also, Dair is still a pretty big move even if it doesn't stay out forever. Marth also has an out if he goes high enough, which is falling at an angle(usually offstage) so that anyone trying to attack him from anywhere in front of him(including below) will get swatted by Fair, potentially reversing the situation. I'd rather focus on ways to reduce this problem Marth has than leave it as it is though.....


As for the "Canon"....


If it's not a FF'er, then yeah maybe there's not a ton of guaranteed fast setups for quick easy execution for kills. I don't particularly mind this though. This doesn't necessarily make Marth bad, and it doesn't mean he can't death combo anything at ALL.

Consider this: When someone is above Marth(especially on FD), how do their options fare compared to his, as any character(including Jigglypuff)? Can they realistically use a move to beat out his uptilt, his upair, his spaced rising Fair/Bair? Well, maybe Ganon can, but you can just bait the mess out of that guy LOL. DD ****. But yeah, no one can really touch Marth when he's below them. In a way, if Marth continually sets up situations such as these, then they are basically "free" hits that are simply not ones done in hitstun but are still part of a combo. This is where Marth's punishment game is very strong and allows him to make those comebacks against floaties and allows him to get those strong leads that people can't break by pushing into Marth because they can't beat his RANGE and MOVEMENT game.

With this entrapment game, combined with a phenomenal edgeguarding game, how can Marth not rack damage or even swiftly kill(or gimp) whenever he wants to?

Tech chasing with throws racks damage, keeping floaties/anything at high percent low to the ground(dair and dtilt and them DI'ing Fthrow down and away) is possible and can set up for kills/edgeguards.

His grab is HUGE and sets up ALL OF THIS(upthrow can't be DI'd that hard at that).

How is his punishment game lacking?



Spacies:


Fox having tech skill is cool and all, but does that really change the fact that Marth still outranges Fox? It doesn't change Marth's harsh punishment game. It doesn't make Fox's lasers do any more damage. It just means Fox may punish a little harder or he may pressure a little better/get off the edge a couple more ways now. This just means we have to be smarter....that's literally it. Tech skill enables actions, and Marth has the range to make all of these actions obsolete. Tech skill is useless boxed into a corner in shield.

It's okay if spacies pressure better, better just means they will miss less L-cancels or mix their games up more. Marth's need to shield DI more, WD OOS more, and maybe lightshield more(not something I think you need but whatever). Point is that, once again, this tech skill is just making Marth have to THINK more. Ever tried jumping out of Fox pressure right before he shines? You fly away and if you get the jump out you're not even in stun. Sick spacing reset that forces Fox to quit shining or pressuring eventually.....sounds great to me.

If spacies start recovering using all of their options then Marths need to begin being more proactive in edgeguarding instead of waiting. Manipulating spacies when they're offstage is something that everyone does anyway, and Marth needs to quit sitting at the edge of the stage every time if he wants to keep up. Going out there, pretending to go out there, adjusting spacing with WDs/DDs, or grabbing the edge can all be great ways to mix up spacies on their recoveries. Eventually you don't want to just mix up spacies though, you want to CONTROL them into recovering how you want them to. Going out and Fair'ing a Falco you threw off early will likely cause them to airdodge/instant side B if you throw them off and act as if you are going out after them again, so you could run off DJ back onstage Fair/grab/whatever the heck you want that Falco is afraid of you and doesn't know how to recover best now.


The edge invincibility is a great point. Fox benefits wayyyyy harder from this than Falco does, but Falco gets his LHDL back if it's respected so whatever. The edge is becoming more complex now. Instead of numerous ledgehop side Bs we will see numerous edgedashes. Rather than freaking out about this, Marths need to understand that they still have stage control, and they can still trick the opponent into making a bad edgedash decision(edgedash shield to get grabbed, edgedash whiffed upsmash into anything, edgedash nair to cc punish/retreating Fair punish/DD grab/etc). Rather than despairing that the metagame is changing, I would suggest focusing on how to punish this option, as old school Marths struggled with how to handle the various side B heights they had to deal with. It's not bad, just in keeping with the times.



Pressure:

The point of pressure is to cause the opponent to become reactive to you or become intimidated and lose their gameplan/act out of fear. If Marth puts someone in their shield and stands outside of the range of any retaliation options(that cannot be reacted to, so essentially aerials OOS and grabs), then what option does one have except to get away or know when Marth will attack and punish? Well, if someone knows when you will attack often, then you're playing Marth incorrectly. You have basically total control over that situation. The threat of your moves is now CONSTANT. I could put someone in shield, walk up to them, jab them OOS, watch them go back into shield more afraid than before. I didn't do anything besides catch someone going OOS in response to my approach(aka the distance between us getting too close and possibly with that the FEAR of being grabbed), but I have effectively pressured them with ONE move used ONE time. Marth is not about tech skill in pressure situations(or ever really lol), he is about conditioning and threatening(maybe one could also say this is intelligence or smart play....whatever lol basically it's not what one would call mindless tech skill stuff).

To mix up pressure, Marth should alternate between obvious options(grabs or spaced moves done quickly) to establish a threat, and moving(can be WALKING) while attacking at different times(it may help to disregard spacing for some of this since you'll be getting free hits/pressure by doing so) or spacings(stuff I already said+shield stabbing could be better at different ranges and could allow for different followups depending on which part of the sword you hit with).

In a way, this is extended stage control theory, so you could even say the pressure begins or can be going on before a shield is ever put up. Marth with the stage can begin hard conditioning his opponents with his various walling and threatening techniques.

The best way to start handling Marth's pressure effectively is to stop thinking about it in modern terms(hitting someone's shield) and to begin thinking of it in old terms(threatening options and manipulating the player into doing what you want them to do).


Hitbox Duration:


I'm not sure what else you want for this besides Nair, but I've seen Marth's Fair and Dtilt, among other moves, hit people out of spotdodges and rolls and such even when the prediction timing was off. I suppose I don't consider this that big of a deal because I'm not sure what it's actually supposed to catch. I suppose catching people in the air if you miss would be nice, or throwing out a move to catch people while they're on the defensive, or covering yourself as you fall, but Marth has lots of range and long-enough lasting moves (imo I suppose) that tend to give him leeway as long as he's setting himself up in the ballpark timing area to cover options.

Oh yeah, shield breaker sits out for a while too iirc. I understand the importance of lasting hitboxes, but I guess it just doesn't bother me too much that Marth doesn't have a sick move designed to stay out there. Certainly a disadvantage though, so maybe that has something to do with it. XD



Marth as a Whole:


-I wish you had listed examples of such trading moves, but if you mean like Peach Fair then yeah that sucks to trade with, but the bright side is that most of those moves are pretty obvious to see coming because those are the only moves those characters can use to even somewhat compete with Marth's spacing. Marth gets his whole moveset to **** characters with lol. Powershielding and platforms(shield dropping exists and Marth's wavelands are sick so don't tell me he sucks that badly on platforms lol) handle projectiles just fine.

-Well, if you land a poke on a floaty then it can lead to a grab anyway, so that's cool. Besides, if you poke/throw a floaty offstage then it's your advantage again, and how is that bad? You don't need intuition to land grabs, you just need to make sure someone isn't conditioned to go OOS when you're going close....and using non-grabs help do that. Not a difficult process imo.

-Stages: Big stages are cool because you get relieved of pressure more, while still being able to apply your own really well. You should also be able to live longer because you are floaty-ish.

Small stages are great because your range is huge and grabs send everything offstage lol. It's hard for spacies to get things going here if they can't land a move inside you.

-Bad characters: I have yet to see a bad character that can really handle Dtilt and Fair and getting thrown into the air. Ganon kinda can, but again, he is easily baited and punished. They also can't recover well usually either, so edgeguarding is even easier for Marth.

-I like hitting airborne things while grounded as well, but yes THISSSS.....make those jumpers pay.

-Well he can shield or DD/WD to protect himself, he doesn't HAVE to swing....the fact that he can outspace most approaches is pretty sweet though lol. Hitting a floaty means they will likely fall back and you get to approach now. You gained insight, conditioning, and probably momentum from a retreating Fair on a floaty. Not a guaranteed followup, but it certainly is valuable.

-Crappy CC Game: Yeah I actually suck at remembering to CC with Marth LOL, but the few times I do, I can get hits or grab the limbs of anyone that hit me. Sometimes I can dash in and grab someone that had to space very hard to hit me depending on the circumstance. CCs are more about setup than overuse.

-I think Marth is a top 3 character. I'm not done evaluating my own tier list though so I'll get back to you on that.


Marth has the most maneuverable range in this game, the biggest grab of the good characters, the best edgeguarding(possibly second best but either way it's ****), juggles better than any other character(which leaves more room for error in combos should there be an accidental pop up, though this is a somewhat unnecessary point lol), and even has lots of efficient staples and practices found out already by M2K and friends.

Marth, the character, is amazing. Marth, the players, have work to do. Marth is not "outgunned" and I don't believe he loses badly in an offensive fashion either. The beauty of having all of this range means that there are many acceptable ways to win with him(all of which are still pretty legit though in terms of effort because you have to be close-ish to your opponent).



Thanks for posting that big thing Niko. I needed something to write about for a couple hours to feel better. =)

Damn, I haven't read all of this yet, tho I will later.

PP just have to state for the record that I think Falco is a character that takes no skill, but I'm super impressed by your Marth, so thus respect to you good sir. Keep up the good work.

 

[danieljosebatista]

That is just not true man. Falco may have lots of strengths compared to most characters but ****, saying he takes no skill is not true

 

[Max?]

Idk man, Falco is pretty ****ing fake.

 

[Veetaak]

Falco being fake means that he is number 1, right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

lol it's cool man

I promise to be legit eventually =p

 

[danieljosebatista]

PP, what do you think about marth pressuring using multiple aerials. I mean combinations like double sh fair, or sh fair to upair/back air?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think those are pretty good mixups but they should not be the main ways to pressure someone.

.....although, if someone was pretty good at altering their timing and spacing with these moves, then maybe it could work in at least a couple matchups?

It does help that most people don't pressure that way with Marth in general, so one may find more success than they'd expect using such pressure strings.

SH Fair to Bair is a pretty bad idea though I'd say LOL. Just not much you can do off of that hit or even if it is blocked(since it will probably not be tippered), and crossing someone up with Fair is easy enough to react to as it is.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Thanks yeah ive been experimenting with different aerial combos

 

[huMps]

Niko, you really have to stop johning about marth. Alot of the flaws that you brought up are much worse for other top characters. I couldn't believe it when you started talking about how gimpable he is. Ya he's not peach or Puff lol. Love your marth though. Probablly my favorite to watch outside of m2k and JTEG good stuff. The fact that your so good at the sheik match up would make me think you would be more optimistic about your character but . . . .

The hard thing about playing marth in my opinion is just the endurance. I mean out of all the real viable characters, spacies and captain falcon are the only match ups that marth can really win in descent time.
The others, Jiggs, peach, and sheik all usually require long perfectly played matches for a victory. I totally agree with PP that marth has all the tools to do it, and even most the advantages. It's just that while your breaking a sweat trying to play absolutely flawless for five minutes they're just waiting for you to **** up and kill you in one or two hits.
Look at M2k vs Armada at Pound 4. M2k plays an amazing match for idk 4 or 5 minutes? Gets pushed out of a dbl jump and it's over (so sad). Don't really need to give examples on puff lol.
eh I'm running out of motivation but you guys know what I mean. I believe marth has a winning match up against every charecter in the game aside from sheik, but I just think he takes alot more effort to win with than other charecters. He can't throw out moves and hope to get lucky like other charecters can.
Though these are pretty much the reasons I play marth. ***** keeps you thinking.

 

[Niko45]

Well he IS stupidly gimpable especially for a character so offensively inept who can't really make up for it (in a lot of matchups). I mean the spacies get gimped but they have the offense to make up for that. And usually when you work harder than the opponent in order to win that's called being a worse character/playing a bad matchup but not for Marth for some reason.

Anyways good stuff PP, I'll respond another time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Even floaties are somewhat gimpable now *shrug*

I think Marth has solid offense. Again it is not so much rushing aggression as it is with spacies, but more threatening, intelligent controlled offense that involves pushing the opponent back through walling/range and movement tricks.

I look forward to your response. =)

 

[ShroudedOne]

He can't throw out moves and hope to get lucky like other charecters can.

Because players like Armada and Peepee and Hungrybox simply hope for luck, and get it?

*sigh*

*20sighs*

 

[Heart Break Kid]

I remember last time I played OTG in tourney I lost with fox on fd in gm1...then thought hmmm who can i just choose to do absolute jank and close my eyes while playing and be fine as long as i can lcancel like a few aerials....so i went falco and won on DL64 gm2 then we went back to FD and i just threw out 8999 bairs and won again

/irrelevant

 

[huMps]

Because players like Armada and Peepee and Hungrybox simply hope for luck, and get it?

*sigh*

*20sighs*[/QUOTE]

What? Why did you even quote me to say this?

 

[huMps]

And usually when you work harder than the opponent in order to win that's called being a worse character/playing a bad matchup but not for Marth for some reason.

Well with that logic I assume you think puff is the best character in the game? (arguable)
And it's not that simple. Marth has the upper hand in so many situations. You just have to win more situations to take a stock or match than other characters. Its hard to measure how good marth is or who he's better than but I definitlely believe he's a good enough charecter to win a national.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Because I'm fairly sure that at high levels of play (the only level that really matters), you can't throw out a move hoping to get lucky. Saying that he can't throw out moves like other characters implies that other characters can just do things mindlessly and win. This isn't true (despite HBK's anecdote).

 

[huMps]

Well 90% of foxes moveset has less lag than marths jab so I'd say he can be a little more reckless lol. And peach pretty much has to be blast zoned ,and that can take a while. I'm just that marth doesn't leave much room for error.

 

[leffen]

lmfao the difference between marth (and a little CF) and the rest is pretty ****ing hilarious lol.

get over yourself.


please

 

[Dr Peepee]

Who is that directed at, Leffen?

 

[danieljosebatista]

Leffen sometimes I feel you're unwarrantedly mean to people just trying to make good discussion. Just my personal opinion

 

[Mew2King]

pp marth can be good, but i do not see him being better than spacies, puff, or sheik at -ALL-. I'd say he's number 5, no more no less. His ability to be comboed so easily and edge guarded easier than the other 4 characters above him is a really big flaw he has, that almost every decent character can exploit (especially sheik/falcon/falco's combos on him, can sometimes be legitimate 0-deaths off reaction. I do this a lot myself vs other marth's). The problem isn't marth's offense, it's how hard he gets punished by people that know what they are doing (this ONLY matters at TOP level play, but that is all that matters if you want to win a tournament). The other problem is he's not that great on many stages, especially counterpick stages, and has some bad CP matchups. I'm actually to a point where I may or may not quit him (I'm kind of leaving smash in general in favor of focusing on college lately tbh, esp. since my controller was stolen) so i may just teach you my stuff some time. You probably should be picking marth any time your opponent picks FD, except vs sheiks/falcons.

 

[Dr Peepee]

pp marth can be good, but i do not see him being better than spacies, puff, or sheik at -ALL-. I'd say he's number 5, no more no less. His ability to be comboed so easily and edge guarded easier than the other 4 characters above him is a really big flaw he has, that almost every decent character can exploit (especially sheik/falcon/falco's combos on him, can sometimes be legitimate 0-deaths off reaction. I do this a lot myself vs other marth's). The problem isn't marth's offense, it's how hard he gets punished by people that know what they are doing (this ONLY matters at TOP level play, but that is all that matters if you want to win a tournament. The other problem is he's not that great on many stages, especially counterpick stages, and has some bad CP matchups. I'm actually to a point where I may or may not quit him (I'm kind of leaving smash in general in favor of focusing on college lately tbh, esp. since my controller was stolen) so i may just teach you my stuff some time. You probably should be picking marth any time your opponent picks FD, except vs sheiks.

Okay I understand he can be punished hard, but you yourself(your 2007 self if no one else) should understand how hard Marth punishes every other character as well.

Also the current stagelist heavily favors him. Marth ***** on YS, BF, FoD, and FD. I think he's fine on PS and DL doesn't bother me too much honestly but I can kinda see arguments against Marth there at least.

Still, 4.5 or 5/6 stages in the current stagelist is AWESOME imo.


Edit: also yeah teach me imo =)

 

[Mew2King]

yeah but it's a lot better if they don't know how to DI. If my opponent knows how to DI, I'm not going to get kills unless I get a HARD READ with a tipper f smash or dair (which is generally not that good because it has a high risk/reward ratio, unless they do something really obvious).

i think marth sucks on battlefield based on my own experience, but it might just be me that sucks there. I disagree with how good you think marth is ENTIRELY, but this discussion isn't even important cuz ur still gonna think what u think and im still gonna think what i think

Also I think marth gets punished way harder than he punishes other characters (falcon/falco/sheik specifically, cept FD he ***** falco)

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah but it's a lot better if they don't know how to DI. If my opponent knows how to DI, I'm not going to get kills unless I get a HARD READ with a tipper f smash or dair (which is generally not that good because it has a high risk/reward ratio, unless they do something really obvious).

i think marth sucks on battlefield based on my own experience, but it might just be me that sucks there. I disagree with how good you think marth is ENTIRELY, but this discussion isn't even important cuz ur still gonna think what u think and im still gonna think what i think

Also I think marth gets punished way harder than he punishes other characters (falcon/falco/sheik specifically, cept FD he ***** falco)

Well of course we will keep our same ideas, but there is always the chance we will learn something new. =) It could also benefit anyone else reading.

I consider getting kills solidly to include edgeguards or juggles into like baits for uptilt(which kill really well), in addition to what you listed. Sure you can't execute the same tricks continuously, but you can trick someone on DI in combos or baits with momentum/etc that can be hard punishes and can be done consistently since one should be good at manipulating the opponent with their given advantages(which I consider Marth to have enough of, especially when he has control).

I dunno about Falcon because I struggle against him with Marth(I have very little experience in that matchup though), and Sheik it can be super tough to compete for damage output with her(but it can be done if you can get solid launches on her imo), and I certainly think damage output with Falco can be kept up with by Marth(CGs, gimps, juggles that easily play on Falco's low horizontal aerial mobility, etc).

 

[leffen]

my comment was aimed at the marth boards peepee
sorry

I'm just talking bout the frequenters obviously, I actually agree a lot of the things you say (altho I think jab still sucks, 3%... not worth the risk as a poke... just use side b imho). There is LOADS to explore about this character, and yet all you do is ****ing complain and compare whos better... ***** hilarious

and really though, how can you guys seriously think that Falco ***** marth? I can almost understand losing by a bit if you don't know about falcos pressure flaws and powershielding and if you don't realize how much worse falcos combos get with good (S!)DI... but seriously, wins by a big margin?


Marth players have overall horrible DI, extremely predictable recoveries, way behind in the execution part of the game and they refuse to try new things.
Here's a couple of things you should guys work on

-shield drops...

-shield stopped spacing à la SW

-reverse tipper bair/fair

-Tech chasing with only reaction (FFS), u can use jumps +jab reset w / nair to take even more options...

-platform canceled fair [combos floaties very well, you have to hit with the top part though]
-f/dthrow to pivot tippers. Guarantees you a kill from throws over 50% vs puff and almost all floaties >______<
You can also use double pivot ->dsmash vs puff/peach/sheik dependng on DI, kills really early, esp on platforms (puff dies from it from 30% at top YS etc )
-using pivots in general... its the by far best way to space tippers, esp for using reaction tippers through platforms

-teeter cancel - for securing good spacing on your edgeguarding and for taking the edge the fastest possible way. I mean no hey lets all do that terrible slow **** that m2k invented in 2006 because we can't think for ourselves

-****ing teching. 9/10 top marths still fail at doing walljump->bair, and 10/10 don't use tech->airdodge recoveries. embarrassing
-learn how your shield works and how to shield poke. I see marths never aiming their shield and then complaining over how bad their shield is, LMAO. Also, marth has beast shield pokes, esp once their shield is worn down (use shield breaker as a spaced poke, aim to hit and be happy if they shield). once its worn down reversed utilt, downtilt/dsmash, nairs, reverse bairs/fairs all shieldpoke 100% of the time as long as you know the hurtboxes of the characters you're facing.

-use edgecancels for edgeguarding and combos... nontipper dair->edgecancel (not backwards) is a great way to extend combos and lift em up for a tipper. Fthrow/Dthrow off cfalcon/sheik, jump, dair ->edgecancel->take the edge/bair. This covers if they delay their recovery (to avoid downairs/tippers/downtilts) and it downairs them if they try to prevent you from grabbing the edge by using dj->attack and if they jump backwards into up B you'll catch them with bair (into reverse up b)


I don't know why I'm writing all of this, you're all gonna ignore it and then go and talk about how freaking amazingly nice it is to read Nikos interesting posts that consist entirely of general simplications that are hard to disagree with but worthless for anything other than whining and theorycrafting

 

[Niko45]

About the Marth punishing thing:

There's a reason why sheik doesn't wait after dthrow. Fox and Falcon don't wait after uthrow. It's cause guaranteed stuff is way better than this type of "all or nothing" punishing you're describing for Marth, PP.

Lets take uthrowing sheik for example.

You can uthrow sheik and she basically has two choices. Fall on you with a nair or jump out. So your hand is forced kind of early to utilt after the uthrow because if she falls on you with a nair while you're overpursuing her DJ then you're gonna get *****. Already playing defense while supposedly punishing.

Now if that works you get cool stuff but if she decides then to jump out the lag from utilt hurts your ability to get in position to punish that. A waveland to top platform will be too fast, and you won't have time to get into position to really stop her from falling adjacent to you with either needles or bair to protect her.

I mean across all the matchups every character has their tricks for dealing with this type of punishing and when you guess right you are going to get paid for sure, but the downside is you might do nothing or even start getting hit as a result. Marth is good at air control but he's far from guaranteed to swat floaties out of uthrow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

my comment was aimed at the marth boards peepee
sorry

I'm just talking bout the frequenters obviously, I actually agree a lot of the things you say (altho I think jab still sucks, 3%... not worth the risk as a poke... just use side b imho). There is LOADS to explore about this character, and yet all you do is ****ing complain and compare whos better... ***** hilarious

and really though, how can you guys seriously think that Falco ***** marth? I can almost understand losing by a bit if you don't know about falcos pressure flaws and powershielding and if you don't realize how much worse falcos combos get with good (S!)DI... but seriously, wins by a big margin?


Marth players have overall horrible DI, extremely predictable recoveries, way behind in the execution part of the game and they refuse to try new things.
Here's a couple of things you should guys work on

-shield drops...

-shield stopped spacing à la SW

-reverse tipper bair/fair

-Tech chasing with only reaction (FFS), u can use jumps +jab reset w / nair to take even more options...

-platform canceled fair [combos floaties very well, you have to hit with the top part though]
-f/dthrow to pivot tippers. Guarantees you a kill from throws over 50% vs puff and almost all floaties >______<
You can also use double pivot ->dsmash vs puff/peach/sheik dependng on DI, kills really early, esp on platforms (puff dies from it from 30% at top YS etc )
-using pivots in general... its the by far best way to space tippers, esp for using reaction tippers through platforms

-teeter cancel - for securing good spacing on your edgeguarding and for taking the edge the fastest possible way. I mean no hey lets all do that terrible slow **** that m2k invented in 2006 because we can't think for ourselves

-****ing teching. 9/10 top marths still fail at doing walljump->bair, and 10/10 don't use tech->airdodge recoveries. embarrassing
-learn how your shield works and how to shield poke. I see marths never aiming their shield and then complaining over how bad their shield is, LMAO. Also, marth has beast shield pokes, esp once their shield is worn down (use shield breaker as a spaced poke, aim to hit and be happy if they shield). once its worn down reversed utilt, downtilt/dsmash, nairs, reverse bairs/fairs all shieldpoke 100% of the time as long as you know the hurtboxes of the characters you're facing.

-use edgecancels for edgeguarding and combos... nontipper dair->edgecancel (not backwards) is a great way to extend combos and lift em up for a tipper. Fthrow/Dthrow off cfalcon/sheik, jump, dair ->edgecancel->take the edge/bair. This covers if they delay their recovery (to avoid downairs/tippers/downtilts) and it downairs them if they try to prevent you from grabbing the edge by using dj->attack and if they jump backwards into up B you'll catch them with bair (into reverse up b)


I don't know why I'm writing all of this, you're all gonna ignore it and then go and talk about how freaking amazingly nice it is to read Nikos interesting posts that consist entirely of general simplications that are hard to disagree with but worthless for anything other than whining and theorycrafting

Hmm....

About jab, I like that it pushes out sometimes, weird as that is. It's more of an edge tool for me in that instance, but sure I'll admit that side B has better uses in the same scenario since I imagine it would get more reward(assuming they're the same range, but I dunno about that).

I personally don't understand the shield stopping for spacing. Is it supposed to cut off initial dash animations for minute spacings? I can't really think of what else it would do, but I suppose that added speed is enough to justify it being better than walking in some ways(namely speed) lol.

Idk what I can even do with reverse tippers or how to set those up LOL. Do you have any suggestions on how to set those up? I guess I can figure out what they lead into lol.

Can you still get these pivot smashes if he floaties DI down and away? I thought you couldn't?

Teeter cancel is when you run to edge and turn around last second right?

The rest I didn't respond to is still **** lol but it makes sense.

Thank you very much! =)

About the Marth punishing thing:

There's a reason why sheik doesn't wait after dthrow. Fox and Falcon don't wait after uthrow. It's cause guaranteed stuff is way better than this type of "all or nothing" punishing you're describing for Marth, PP.

Lets take uthrowing sheik for example.

You can uthrow sheik and she basically has two choices. Fall on you with a nair or jump out. So your hand is forced kind of early to utilt after the uthrow because if she falls on you with a nair while you're overpursuing her DJ then you're gonna get *****. Already playing defense while supposedly punishing.

Now if that works you get cool stuff but if she decides then to jump out the lag from utilt hurts your ability to get in position to punish that. A waveland to top platform will be too fast, and you won't have time to get into position to really stop her from falling adjacent to you with either needles or bair to protect her.

I mean across all the matchups every character has their tricks for dealing with this type of punishing and when you guess right you are going to get paid for sure, but the downside is you might do nothing or even start getting hit as a result. Marth is good at air control but he's far from guaranteed to swat floaties out of uthrow.

Well, if you Uthrow Sheik when she's below 10-11%, then yeah I agree. I wouldn't do that though. I'd Fthrow and mixup game(depends on DI) or Dthrow tech chase once in a while. 10-11% you get to combo into Uptilt, and then you get free aerials, and once you're past THAT threshold you get to start juggling and ****** Sheik's poor aerial mobility and lack of any move to really protect herself with. She can airdodge(which you can bait), Nair(which you listed and can be beaten by so many of Marth's moves), or Dair(which you can DD ****, or beat with uptilt/Uair/Fsmash at the least). She can't possibly do anything else if you're following her at all because she needs you to be across from her to punish(Fair and Bair are the scary Sheik aerial moves). So, knowing this, you get to follow DI(or I suppose influence it if she doesn't DI) and walk(can use all of the described punishes), WD(can use all described punishes out of it), DD(can use other movement options or jumps out of it and punish lag with grabs or dash canceled moves), or SH/FH bait/mixup on those 3 options Sheik has. That sounds pretty good to me. Not GUARANTEED good, but, if you've mastered these mechanics, it should be pretty close to guaranteed.

Oh right, you mentioned platforms. Okay, so you can do the same thing just after you land on a platform first. You can fall through platforms with Uairs to cover all of those aforementioned options(and still punish the airdodge if Sheik does it) in addition to everything else I said.

But what you're suggesting to me is that Sheik could go for the top platform, right? Well, if you're throwing Sheik upwards and she's at the percent where she could barely make it to the platform, then that's a bad throw decision. Fthrow tech chasing/edgeguarding is your alternative at these percents(varies with stage choice) but is still very effective for adjusting Sheik positioning should you choose to set up the Uthrow again(if you're not by the edge and just want to toss her off for a free edgeguard at this point).

The problem with your line of thinking, in my opinion, is that you see this stuff as "guessing." When you know just how much % will impact a throw and you know your options as a result of this and realize how SCREWED every character is in the air and especially below Marth, then I think you should eventually begin to see this as influencing the opponent and taking advantage of their limited options, as opposed to guessing. Consider if you could get these "guesses" a large majority of the time when you play Marth against anyone. Wouldn't that change your opinion of the character and just how "guaranteed" his punishment game is? Well, I believe this is doable and have done so in my own play before(not in those Armada videos because wtf is a Peach LOL, but you'll have to take my word on this for now), and I'm sure you've seen other Marth players run long juggle strings too.

It can be done, we just need to start showing it more.

 

[Archangel]

my comment was aimed at the marth boards peepee
sorry

I'm just talking bout the frequenters obviously, I actually agree a lot of the things you say (altho I think jab still sucks, 3%... not worth the risk as a poke... just use side b imho). There is LOADS to explore about this character, and yet all you do is ****ing complain and compare whos better... ***** hilarious

and really though, how can you guys seriously think that Falco ***** marth? I can almost understand losing by a bit if you don't know about falcos pressure flaws and powershielding and if you don't realize how much worse falcos combos get with good (S!)DI... but seriously, wins by a big margin?


Marth players have overall horrible DI, extremely predictable recoveries, way behind in the execution part of the game and they refuse to try new things.
Here's a couple of things you should guys work on

-shield drops...

-shield stopped spacing à la SW

-reverse tipper bair/fair

-Tech chasing with only reaction (FFS), u can use jumps +jab reset w / nair to take even more options...

-platform canceled fair [combos floaties very well, you have to hit with the top part though]
-f/dthrow to pivot tippers. Guarantees you a kill from throws over 50% vs puff and almost all floaties >______<
You can also use double pivot ->dsmash vs puff/peach/sheik dependng on DI, kills really early, esp on platforms (puff dies from it from 30% at top YS etc )
-using pivots in general... its the by far best way to space tippers, esp for using reaction tippers through platforms

-teeter cancel - for securing good spacing on your edgeguarding and for taking the edge the fastest possible way. I mean no hey lets all do that terrible slow **** that m2k invented in 2006 because we can't think for ourselves

-****ing teching. 9/10 top marths still fail at doing walljump->bair, and 10/10 don't use tech->airdodge recoveries. embarrassing
-learn how your shield works and how to shield poke. I see marths never aiming their shield and then complaining over how bad their shield is, LMAO. Also, marth has beast shield pokes, esp once their shield is worn down (use shield breaker as a spaced poke, aim to hit and be happy if they shield). once its worn down reversed utilt, downtilt/dsmash, nairs, reverse bairs/fairs all shieldpoke 100% of the time as long as you know the hurtboxes of the characters you're facing.

-use edgecancels for edgeguarding and combos... nontipper dair->edgecancel (not backwards) is a great way to extend combos and lift em up for a tipper. Fthrow/Dthrow off cfalcon/sheik, jump, dair ->edgecancel->take the edge/bair. This covers if they delay their recovery (to avoid downairs/tippers/downtilts) and it downairs them if they try to prevent you from grabbing the edge by using dj->attack and if they jump backwards into up B you'll catch them with bair (into reverse up b)


I don't know why I'm writing all of this, you're all gonna ignore it and then go and talk about how freaking amazingly nice it is to read Nikos interesting posts that consist entirely of general simplications that are hard to disagree with but worthless for anything other than whining and theorycrafting

Shut up! We don't listen to the mediocre around here!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Didn't Niko not make it out of pools >_>

 

[Niko45]

KK he's joking, douche

Well, if you Uthrow Sheik when she's below 10-11%, then yeah I agree. I wouldn't do that though. I'd Fthrow and mixup game(depends on DI) or Dthrow tech chase once in a while. 10-11% you get to combo into Uptilt, and then you get free aerials, and once you're past THAT threshold you get to start juggling and ****** Sheik's poor aerial mobility and lack of any move to really protect herself with. She can airdodge(which you can bait), Nair(which you listed and can be beaten by so many of Marth's moves), or Dair(which you can DD ****, or beat with uptilt/Uair/Fsmash at the least). She can't possibly do anything else if you're following her at all because she needs you to be across from her to punish(Fair and Bair are the scary Sheik aerial moves). So, knowing this, you get to follow DI(or I suppose influence it if she doesn't DI) and walk(can use all of the described punishes), WD(can use all described punishes out of it), DD(can use other movement options or jumps out of it and punish lag with grabs or dash canceled moves), or SH/FH bait/mixup on those 3 options Sheik has. That sounds pretty good to me. Not GUARANTEED good, but, if you've mastered these mechanics, it should be pretty close to guaranteed.

Uthrow utilt true combos at 10%? I don't think it true combos but I could be mistaken. The emphasis of the guessing is really on the initial action out of uthrow, as at lower percent she chooses between falling on you or jumping out. Just to be clear, what % are you talking about with this scenario? And sheik is not jumping out? I don't really understand how you could walk out of uthrow at low % and try to stay underneath her while simultaneously covering her falling on top of you. Maybe you're thinking of higher % than I am (I'm mostly thinking under 30%) but I am just not really seeing you have enough time to do/cover all of this that quickly. So you're saying don't utilt immediately at low % and instead try to DD around her falling on you with an aerial?

But what you're suggesting to me is that Sheik could go for the top platform, right? Well, if you're throwing Sheik upwards and she's at the percent where she could barely make it to the platform, then that's a bad throw decision. Fthrow tech chasing/edgeguarding is your alternative at these percents(varies with stage choice) but is still very effective for adjusting Sheik positioning should you choose to set up the Uthrow again(if you're not by the edge and just want to toss her off for a free edgeguard at this point).

I meant sheik double jumping out at low percents to waveland onto the top platform. I agree about not throwing her up there if the throw itself is going to put her onto the platform. Fthrow tech chasing is amazing against Sheik no argument there. But I think her getting the top platform at low % is a big concern because she gets a lot of control back once she gets up there and you need to follow quickly...too quickly imo (guess) in order to actually stop her from doing that. She can then shield or do turn around needles on to the side platform or fall through with a nair. Marth still has ok control here but there's still a lot left to be decided at that point.

The problem with your line of thinking, in my opinion, is that you see this stuff as "guessing." When you know just how much % will impact a throw and you know your options as a result of this and realize how SCREWED every character is in the air and especially below Marth, then I think you should eventually begin to see this as influencing the opponent and taking advantage of their limited options, as opposed to guessing. Consider if you could get these "guesses" a large majority of the time when you play Marth against anyone. Wouldn't that change your opinion of the character and just how "guaranteed" his punishment game is? Well, I believe this is doable and have done so in my own play before(not in those Armada videos because wtf is a Peach LOL, but you'll have to take my word on this for now), and I'm sure you've seen other Marth players run long juggle strings too.

It can be done, we just need to start showing it more.

Well the emphasis of the guessing is on the initial exchange after you uthrow them at low % imo. I don't think you can truly cover everything there but maybe I'm wrong.

Yea Peach was never one I felt uthrowing did great against because she has DJC and float which make following her a bit tricky, not to mention good aerials that'll catch you if you misspace at all. Plus at low % she can actually air dodge/nair you out of your combos so it just never seemed optimal against her. Samus was another one, not cause she defends herself particularly well but she just was too damn floaty. I always just fthrow them. Uthrow ***** all the mid-weights tho.

 

[Dr Peepee]

KK he's joking, douche



Uthrow utilt true combos at 10%? I don't think it true combos but I could be mistaken. The emphasis of the guessing is really on the initial action out of uthrow, as at lower percent she chooses between falling on you or jumping out. Just to be clear, what % are you talking about with this scenario? And sheik is not jumping out? I don't really understand how you could walk out of uthrow at low % and try to stay underneath her while simultaneously covering her falling on top of you. Maybe you're thinking of higher % than I am (I'm mostly thinking under 30%) but I am just not really seeing you have enough time to do/cover all of this that quickly. So you're saying don't utilt immediately at low % and instead try to DD around her falling on you with an aerial?



I meant sheik double jumping out at low percents to waveland onto the top platform. I agree about not throwing her up there if the throw itself is going to put her onto the platform. Fthrow tech chasing is amazing against Sheik no argument there. But I think her getting the top platform at low % is a big concern because she gets a lot of control back once she gets up there and you need to follow quickly...too quickly imo (guess) in order to actually stop her from doing that. She can then shield or do turn around needles on to the side platform or fall through with a nair. Marth still has ok control here but there's still a lot left to be decided at that point.



Well the emphasis of the guessing is on the initial exchange after you uthrow them at low % imo. I don't think you can truly cover everything there but maybe I'm wrong.

Yea Peach was never one I felt uthrowing did great against because she has DJC and float which make following her a bit tricky, not to mention good aerials that'll catch you if you misspace at all. Plus at low % she can actually air dodge/nair you out of your combos so it just never seemed optimal against her. Samus was another one, not cause she defends herself particularly well but she just was too damn floaty. I always just fthrow them. Uthrow ***** all the mid-weights tho.

First chunk:

Yeah upthrow uptilt combos from like 11% to 25%...ish lol. I know I can ALWAYS get a guaranteed followup on upthrow past 11% until like 50 or 60 lol. At those percents you can follow Sheik's DI since she'll be thrown quite far.

Below 11% I Fthrow usually because the mixup is legit then imo.

Second chunk:

Yeah I think this is all solved by what I said in response to the first chunk, but let me know if you don't think so.

The only problem I could see here is Sheik might land on a platform somewhere in here and you have to Fthrow tech chase like I said, but otherwise you should be able to FH aerial Sheik before she reaches said platform and continue juggling/comboing from there.

Third Chunk:

Yeah DJC is a good argument against upthrowing I agree, which is why I normally Fthrow Peach because she has to DI badly in order to not get ***** by it. However, if nothing else I try to keep Peach from DJC'ing comfortably(aka DJC'ing while retreating to the middle) so I still maintain heavy advantage over her(she's pretty worthless cornered lol) if I upthrow her lol.

I know Peach likes Nair'ing at low percent which is why I like to swing more against her then. She usually doesn't wanna trade as badly(could trade with a tipper) at higher percents so that's when you can expect more airdodges. It's not as bad of a scenario there either because Peach won't float away as far from your throw so she can only switch up so hard from where she is. I will agree that it is less **** than desired but still not altogether hopeless.

lmfao samus is dumb. uhh I agree though samus is just a pain. I don't really play that matchup though but I imagine I'd start doing whichever throw did more damage after a while LOL.

which characters exactly are middle weights?

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Didn't Niko not make it out of pools >_>

Why would you make fun of your crush...thats not gonna help your cause lilttle buddy.

 

[Niko45]

Wow wtf I never knew uthrow utilt combo'd at all lol...but yea nevermind then.

Mid weights I guess that's a loose term I just use for all the non fast fallers who still get combo'd lol (marth, sheik, pikachu, doc, link etc)

HBK - exposed

 

[Dr Peepee]

yea it's **** =)

and thanks for clearing that up. I agree.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why would you make fun of your crush...thats not gonna help your cause lilttle buddy.

I have a new love mancrush.