What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[Napilopez]

B-sticking would be very weird with Sonic, since the stick can't hold down for you to charge down-B... you have to B-stick down, then jam the control stick down soon enough that it gets its first charge in at least, lulz.

Back on topic....
Holy crap, I just figured out why I'm still sometimes unexpectedly losing my 2nd jump during an SD or an SC. I know that ASC/SD passes remaining jump data to an SDR>SDJ and all that.... but what I didn't realize is that this information doesn't get updated until you either jump off a platform, or get hit by an attack. You can sort of "air-trip" with your midair jump and the spin specials, the way you can airtrip with a Spring.... we could call this "midair-tripping" lol

Here's what I mean. Jump > Jump > ASC shield-cancel the landing, and walk around the stage a bit. You'd think you have your jumps restored, right? Wrong! If you use a grounded SC or SD (including SDJ/VSDJ), your 2nd jump is gone! Because when you shield-cancelled the ASC's landing, you didn't really land. Alternatively, go on a high platform and ASC down, such that the ASC ends before you reach the bottom platform. In this case you landed properly, so if you use a spin special off the ground, it can be jump-cancelled.

I never really caught on to this phenomena, because I rarely use spindashes off the ground lol.

After a "midair trip" (landing on the ground in a spinspecial after using your 2nd jump), you have to jump off the stage to restore it (or get hit lol). You can use as many grounded SCs and SDs as you want, it won't restore the jump data.

Of further note, you know how SC and SD have some start-up lag frames? (SD's lag frames are the ones you see before you can shield-cancel it) Landing in those frames is a "proper landing" that restores your jump data. But anytime afterwards, it's a midair trip (if your 2nd jump is gone). This explains why using SD to bounce VSDJ's around the stage can seem inconsistent about when your jump is available (assuming you'd used your midair jump at some point).

Another thing:


You can also cancel an SDJ with an item-throw. Furthermore, you can Z-drop items from SDJ, and it doesn't cancel the SDJ! Neat, huh?

Oh snaparoonie infzy, this is nice stuff!

Just one thing, you don't have to jump offff the stage to restore ur midair jump, at least not if it works like airtripping from an upB. just jump once on the stage and youll be fine. I do so all the time because I alwayysss recover from below and often land on stage in an airtrip state. So yea, just do an sh ff and you should be fine.

That whole thing about landing in the initial part of SideB sounds quite interestinggg. Just more weird properties about the sideB i guess...

Hmm.... this is making me wonder...

I think theres something about SideBs that we have yet to figure out... perhaps something usefull... rawrr. This is something for like the Sonc boards own version of the smash lab looll. Why are ASC and SideB cancellable with a shield? Are there any other moves into the entire game that are similarly cancellable? I can't seem to think of any other specials in the game being sheild cancellable... Why only a shield? Is it possible one might be able to perform attacks immediately after the startupframes of SideB? Perhaps you can only cancel SideB with a shield, because it has a "frame window" for cancelling it, and shield comes out in only 2 frames I believe?

Why does spinshotting work? Why does it work with A instead of jump? has anyone tried spinshotting by using jump instead of A?

So many questions....

But man... if we found a way to attack out of SideB... XD

And Oh snap, Z-Dropping from SDJ, without leaving SDJ state! looll I can imagine jump jumping over a char with SDJ and dropping a banana or something over his head/her head hahaha.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I use GCC because Wiimote drains batteries.

 

[darkNES386]

I use GCC because Wiimote drains batteries.

You should learn to use aerials with the c-stick. That's a reason to use the gamecube controller.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Well durr, but draining batteries is a better reason.

 

[darkNES386]

Well durr, but draining batteries is a better reason.

You can get rechargeable... I'm sorry I'm kinda obsessed with spreading the knowledge of the power of c-stick with aerials. Just do this for me and I'll sleep happy tonight: Jump up in the air and do a fair attack without moving forward at all.... try it with the c-stick and you tell me which is easier.

Spin Dash Roll (SDR):

Charge: Charge does affect the speed (and consequently, damage) of the SDR.
Remaining Jumps: Whether or not you have a double jump remaining is still passed onto the next phase. It doesn't exactly affect this part of the move, but keep that in mind. Your remaining jumps aren't renewed until the move ends.
Damage: 7-10 damage. The SDR's damage is based on how fast you're moving! This implies two things: 1) You don't necessarily have to be moving at max speed to do max damage; and 2) If you do a low charge SDR and roll down a hill to speed up, you will do max damage.
Knockback: Very Low knockback/upwards. This move's knockback was purposefully tailored to combo into SDJ/aerial.

Other Traits:
- SDR gains/loses speed when travelling on slopes (goes faster if going down a hill and slower if going up). It's possible to begin a low charge SDR going up a hill, slow down, and speed up going down the hill without any input from you.
- Turn-around (tap/hold [Back] during the SDR):
--- The turn-around does not deal damage until the blue aura comes back.
--- Performing a turn-around "initiates" a 'new' SDR with lower speed. This becomes important in understanding the iSDR (see the bottom of this post for more detail).


Phase changes:
Next: Hitting [Up], [Jump], or [Attack] will shift the move into an SDJ. Alternatively, you can roll off the platform, which shifts the move into the ASC phase.
- Ending the move: There are two ways to 'end' the move from this point.
a) If the 2 second time limit (from release) runs out during the SDR, you will screech stop until momentum stops. This can be very laggy if you're moving quickly, but you can 'slow it down' pre-emptively by beginning a turn-around just before it ends.
b) If you are moving slow enough (for example, slowed down by a hill, or a single charge roll after making contact with one object), you can hit [shield] and cancel the roll!​

Spin Dash Jump (SDJ):

Charge: Charge has no effect on this phase!
Remaining Jumps: If you had a double jump when you began the charge, you can use it out of this phase! If not, then you can't
Damage: 7 damage. Like the SD hop, this does constant damage, not counting stale moves. This move has an attack hitbox for about 1-2 seconds (Untested: exact length of hitbox out).
Knockback: Medium knockback/sideways.

Other Traits:
- Has higher height than a full hop.
- Has higher max air speed than a full hop.

Ending:
- If you you had a double jump during the charge, you can use it out of the SDJ by hitting [Up] or [Jump]
- You can immediately cancel the SDJ with an Aerial, Airdodge, Spring, or Homing Attack. You have to wait until after the hitbox goes away before you can start a new side/down-B.​

So if that made any sense, I think the SDR and SDJ are treated as "ending moves" that take in charge / 'remaining jump' data from the Side-B or Down-B. Side B's "true form" can really just be the hop, and Down-B's "true form" is the aerial version; The rolling attack is just tacked on to both moves. A grounded Down-B is already on the floor (duh), so it goes straight into the rolling attack.

Tenki... I can't find where you discuss that out of a spin dash jump you can initiate a smash attack on inclines... (see my last post in this thread). Maybe I'm missing it, either way I think a list of a valid stages for it would be useful. I find it so hilarious how the best advice given to All Sonic players is to use their specials less... and then we have all this tempting information about them.

I'm pretty sure a turnaround is a viable way to avoid 'nades and possibly continue chasing a snake who attempts to roll behind you. Yes? Your hitbox goes away during the turnaround... right?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I already use C-stick for aerials...

 

[infomon]

Just one thing, you don't have to jump offff the stage to restore ur midair jump, at least not if it works like airtripping from an upB. just jump once on the stage and youll be fine.

lol yeah, that's what I meant, you just need to jump. Sorry about the confusion. (I blame my psyduck...... /bad pokéjoke)

Why are ASC and SideB cancellable with a shield? Are there any other moves into the entire game that are similarly cancellable?

lolol, lots of moves are shield-cancellable: pretty much anything that needs to be charged. Samus' laser, Lucario's auraspheres, etc.

Why does spinshotting work? Why does it work with A instead of jump? has anyone tried spinshotting by using jump instead of A?

.... what spinshot requires A instead of jump? I only ever use jump lol. But A should work too; the reason being that A = jump during ASC/ASD/SDR.

Anyway, I just uploaded my video tutorial companion for this thread:
[Sonic's side-B and down-B explained]

If you have any corrections or suggestions let me know, I might do another version and/or addendum.... most likely I'd just split it into two pieces and add lots of stuff, because I got really jammed for time with a 10minute cap >.<

Blargh dNES, why you giving me more things I wish I could've put in my video but lol yeah I need to practice the hilly stuff, it only happens to me by accident atm lol.

And yes, the SDR turnaround loses its hitbox.... but not its hurtbox I hadn't thought about avoiding 'nades with it, tho.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sexy video Infzy

 

[Dark Sonic]

That video was completely amazing, but it didn't mention the spinshot...at all. Like how you can spinshot after rolling off a platform with a SDR (and it's freakin' sexy too).

 

[darkNES386]

Nice vid, don't worry you didn't like say it can't roll over 'nades... so yeah you worded it perfectly. I subscribed. Thanks for the shoutout/thanks Made my day since Gf2tw couldn't ... lol, (i'm just messin, read a couple posts up)

Edit: ^ He's bound to miss stuff... and he said he didn't cover it. Besides... imagine how long a video would have to be that talks about all of Sonic's tricks.

 

[infomon]

Hey thanks all about the vid...

Like how you can spinshot after rolling off a platform with a SDR (and it's freakin' sexy too).

^^ The vid states my regret that I couldn't include spinshotting. Nevertheless, there are three spinshot examples: one with down-B, one with side-B, and one that's the SDR off-the-platform spinshot you brought up. (look carefully lulz)

 

[Espy Rose]

The spin guide was pretty awesome Infzy. I actually didn't know about the side-B turnaround thing. Not sure how useful it is though.

Why not just make an overall video of Sonic's entire moveset and his properties? Tenki has an absurd knowledge of frames and hitboxes, darkNES has a guide, we have several videos floating around about certain techs and properties as it is.

Not to mention we have in tournament videos of some of these things in action.

It'd be pretty awesome.

But now I'm going off subject.

This video is going into the Cinemas, because the Cinemas have had a dry spell all week so far, and it's getting lame.

Very lame. Like Fake Steak.

Oh, and mentioning steak = 5 stars. Pictures of steak = Steak stars.

 

[Tenki]

@dNES and stopping it on hills:
it works on any 45 degree+ angle.
@dNES and avoiding grenades:
wouldn't the situation usually be bad though? If Snake is behind the grenade, you're open for a tilt or something. The grenade may explode as you're turning around, or you might trigger it after you turn around.

@infzy1: right, I didn't mess around much with items. I'll fix that.
@infzy video:
one thing that bothered me early on:
1:20 - I know you're talking about grounded SC, but you make it sound like the SDR itself lasts 2 seconds. The whole move up until the SDJ (er crap, I didn't specify the SDJ as not being part of the time limit) lasts 2 seconds from release. From a grounded SC, then yes, it would, but keep in mind that air time is factored into it as well.

:3 good.

 

[darkNES386]

@dNES and stopping it on hills:
it works on any 45 degree+ angle.
@dNES and avoiding grenades:
wouldn't the situation usually be bad though? If Snake is behind the grenade, you're open for a tilt or something. The grenade may explode as you're turning around, or you might trigger it after you turn around.

We're talking about Lucky's spin dash roll>short hop>smash attack?

Yes, anytime you have no hitbox and you're rolling around 'nades is probably bad. Would this be viable:

ASC landing in front of snake>turnaround rolls over 'nade but doesn't hit it>hit box comes back?
Snake is holding 'nade>snake shields/rolls towards/behind Sonic>Snake .... tilts before?

The important thing to note is that Snake is holding a 'nade at the time so he most likely has to either throw it or shield/roll. I guess he could jump but then you would shield cancel the roll which might be a better option anyways. I'm just trying to find some sort of use for the turnaround. Of course there are much safer options. This wouldn't be a counter-'nade strategy at all. Just maybe that little extra something in a match that sets you up for something else.

@puffball... the turnaround... I thought we talked all about the b-reversal

 

[infomon]

1:20 - I know you're talking about grounded SC, but you make it sound like the SDR itself lasts 2 seconds. The whole move up until the SDJ (er crap, I didn't specify the SDJ as not being part of the time limit) lasts 2 seconds from release. From a grounded SC, then yes, it would, but keep in mind that air time is factored into it as well.

Yeah, I knew that's a bit of a problem, but I wasn't sure how to do this better. Not without taking up more time, lulz. I wanted to talk about how you can shorten SDR's lifespan, but I hadn't brought up ASC yet, let alone ASC/SDR (or even SD/SDR) transitions. *shrug* Oh well, hopefully this becomes clear from the other mentions of the 2-second time limit / all the examples / obviousness.

Puff: thanx for the steak-stars I like the idea of making more Sonic vids, like a what's-a-sonic vid, and a nonobvious-tech vid... but I'll think about this once I've got some irl work done lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

man...
great vid.
i had actually forgotten that you can shield cancel slow SDs

this is great for dumb ppl, all the people who are like
"duhhh all sonk dos iz tern in2 da ballzz"

i think you should make a part 2 to cover all the stuffs you missed

 

[Chis]

Great video professor infzy.

Good for people who don't care to read and visual learners.

 

[Espy Rose]

@puffball... the turnaround... I thought we talked all about the b-reversal

Very possible, I remember us discussing this thoroughly at the OBC. I guess that little section just flew under my radar. I guess that means I've answered my own question, for the most part.

Although there are definately uses for it, it's a limited move.

Puff: thanx for the steak-stars I like the idea of making more Sonic vids, like a what's-a-sonic vid, and a nonobvious-tech vid... but I'll think about this once I've got some irl work done lol.

No, no, no, I mean, like, one super-huge-steak-filled video.

You guys who played Melee remember The Advanced How to Play video on Youtube?
That vid shaped me into who I am today, as a Smash player.

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n4s5yB7ZkE&fmt=18

Go rewatch it. All 3 parts.

That's the kind of video I want, but ONLY pertaining to Sonic, and all of his properties.
It would be a HUGE undertaking, but ****, would it be awesome. We already have almost every piece of info on the hog, we just need to organize it in a neat little pattern.

Tenki, Infzy, darkNES, etc, etc, etc. We all have something interesting about Sonic that could be shared.

PS: Plus, splitting it into parts (much like Melee's AHTPV) would get rid of any time constraint problems.

And, we could have it for download via Rapidshare, or something like that. In HQ.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

A video like that would be an incredible idea. I wish I could help but...I can't record stuff >< Well I can record replays onto my SD card but thats it Plus I'd probably learn from it more than help with it xD

Can I ask, which one do you lot end use the most? Side B or Down + B? I rarely find myself using Side B and when I do, I always end up cancelling it :x I love Down + B

 

[Jim Morrison]

The important thing to note is that Snake is holding a 'nade at the time so he most likely has to either throw it or shield/roll. I guess he could jump but then you would shield cancel the roll which might be a better option anyways. I'm just trying to find some sort of use for the turnaround. Of course there are much safer options. This wouldn't be a counter-'nade strategy at all. Just maybe that little extra something in a match that sets you up for something else.
l

He could U-smash on C-stick or shield-grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that advanced how to play melee, was what got me to the point i am at now...

gald to see somebody beside me saw the glory of that guide...

@rckerdy
side-b hop to up air is probably my most used move because its one of the few things sonic has that garantees damage every single time.

id say i use them both about 50-50

 

[Espy Rose]

that advanced how to play melee, was what got me to the point i am at now...

gald to see somebody beside me saw the glory of that guide...

@rckerdy
side-b hop to up air is probably my most used move because its one of the few things sonic has that garantees damage every single time.

id say i use them both about 50-50

I wouldn't be here if it weren't for that guide even MENTIONING Smashboards.
Hell, I wouldn't even be playing Smash Bros.

I'd still be a rabid Sonic fanboy though.

 

[darkNES386]

He could U-smash on C-stick or shield-grab.

You're probably right. I was just trying to find a little fancy /useless trick for the turnaround.

It would be a HUGE undertaking, but ****, would it be awesome. We already have almost every piece of info on the hog, we just need to organize it in a neat little pattern.

That would be a lot of fun. Sooooo much stuff indeed.

 

[Jim Morrison]

On a note, the U-smash doesn't work with Snake Grenades, but he could still shieldgrab. And yea that video would be the ****.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Sexy vid infzy.

Oh and puff, I <3 the "How to Play Melee" 3 part video.

I remember first watching that.

Ahh....the memories.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, definitely gonna show this to people who are still convinced Sonic's moves are the same.
Very awesome infzy!

I never saw that Melee video though...I feel like I must watch it now.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you do...
its now mandatory as a prerequisite to watch infzy's vid that you watch all 3 part of the advanced how to play melee series

 

[thecatinthehat]

Not even KID.

It's like mandatory to watch that vid before you even start posting here on SWF.

 

[Camalange]

I can't believe I never saw it...
I know all of it, but it's still great to watch

The first one was very basic. Looking forward to the rest of it though.

 

[memphischains]

everyone should quote Hylian

Top Tier:
Sonic

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'm more of a visual learner so that vid would have been SO awesome for me when I first started. I had to do it the hard way. :/ Good stuff infzy

 

[memphischains]

good stuff Hylian!

Top Tier:
Sonic

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, me too Terios.

lol, I think I just found a new sig memph

 

[memphischains]

i already put it in there

so should everyone else

Top Tier:
Sonic

 

[da K.I.D.]

done and done

 

[infomon]

omg, I watched the Melee AHTPV like at least 6 times, back in the day..... good stuff.

and thanks for all the youtube steak lulllz

I'll make a new thread for discussion of an advanced Sonic vid.

 

[Sosuke]

Omfg. My life is complete.
Seriously.

Tenki has my respect for making this. >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

Omfg. My life is complete.
Seriously.

Tenki has my respect for making this. >_>

see what happens with a simple name change?

 

[memphischains]

see what happens with a simple name change?

of who? i'm lost

 

[Tenki]

The thread title lol.

freaking 4kids
edit:
LOL

4KIDS












...d4KID

XD