What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[Tenki]

lolol

I spent all night messing with this exact sorta stuff. I was about to try and bring up SC-out-of-run somewhere LOL; I like the idea of running up to the edge, then SDJ'ing off quick. It'd be less telegraphed than SC > SDR > SDJ.

[1] Boxob, with the run-downB-off-the-edge, are you sure you're not just using the SDR>ASC transition for the spinshot? That spinshot's gotta be common knowledge, cuz I knew about it enough to have recorded vids of me doing it this morning lol. I still suck at the timing for it, tho.

[2] Also, ASC's hitbox does between 6-11%, afaict. And SDR does between 4-11% depending on its speed, although normally it's from 7-10; you need an artificial boost (ie. a slope) to get it to 11.

[1] What he did was start the charge as he reached the ledge, slid off, then did spinshot.
[2] Was 6% done with a 'slowed down' ASC? For all practical purposes, it usually does 7 though. Ay, forgot to mention that 11% one lol. That's what made me realize that the SDR's damage was based on speed instead of charge.

 

[infomon]

cause I was messing around with inputs the other day and with Ganondorf, I found out how to do insta ISJR U-air with him - double tap jump (Draconic Reverse style), U-air, buffer jump+ U-air, repeat. If you don't buffer U-air on the first jump, then he'll perform something that looks like a sh double jump (or is his dj always that low?) on the floor. I was wondering if you could use that kind of double-tap to break the SDR>SDJ limit hahaha.

I'll think about trying this stuff out when I'm sane enough for it to make any sense to me
Sleep deprivation johns.

It's a minor note, but you can do a 'perfect hop combo', which is kinda what gave me the idea for the ASC perfect combo. land the hop in front, then do the SDR.... yeah.

Sounds good, I find it really hard to land an SDR after the SD hop, but I also find it really hard to land an SDR after hitting with ASC lol.

Is anyone capable of performing the Perfect Combo (or something close, like 1 hit with ASC) in a real match? Massive steak for anyone pulling off an ASC-PC in tournament. Yes, we need another acronym

Another note: You can land hits with ASC going backwards. It's totally lol.. you can do it on FD with the Spring > ASC rising missile Just give yourself lots of room to travel backwards, because you really need to ramp up the velocity. It's hilarious when you land, because if you charged the ASC a lot, you'll go shooting off forwards (SDR screech stop), while you've hit your opponent in the opposite direction.

In case it's not clear, say you're facing right, and Bowser's to your left. Hop on a grounded Spring > rising ASC facing right > pull it to the left as much as possible > hit Bowser from top-right to bottom-left > you skid to the right, he's knocked leftwards lol.

You can mess a lot with the spacing and whatnot, and actually knock him right as you skid right. I'm sure you can combo out of this, and it would be totally ridiculous, you'd have to be amazing to land one of these in tournament

I might make some vids of it.

 

[Boxob]

mobile time.

i run into down B all the time as of three days ago, it speeds up your game so well.

also, i didnt slide off the edge into spinshot, if i hold down be at the very edge, you stay on the stage, and can spinshot out of downB.

homing attack more than likely has nothing like cape glide. ill test it but it will be VERY hard to do since you have to shift the stick back into nuetral.

vroooooom.

 

[Tenki]

@infzy, I might have mentioned the reverse ASC before, probably with all that spring mess that's come up recently lol.

Hop perfect combo is easier to do than ASC's perfect combo, because ASC has higher knockback, and with the hop, you only have to worry about 1 aerial hit instead of 2.

I think it'll require really bad DI to land a true perfect combo in a real match x.x;

@boxob o ic. You have tap jump on, right?

 

[Jim Morrison]

ASC hits 11 when you press side while doing it (not loaded), but when you do nothing it's 7 I think, but at the same time has less knockback. Of course I just might be a ***got and be wrong about knockback.

 

[Napilopez]

I landed perfect combos a couple of times when fighting a Boozer this weekend ^_^

40+ Damage w00ttt

Ive come pretty close to it more and morse recently by perfectly spacing ASCs. Like, if my opponent is grounded, I tend to wait a teensy bit longer, so that im really really close to the ground by the time the second hit of ASC finishes, so it goes directly into an SDR. Normal DI won't help you much if spaced that well, because the hits are too close to one another.

But yea its quite easy, relatively speaking, to land them on shields. it diminishes shields like crazy, and then you can usmash/ftilt/fair to shield poke, or dtilt to go under shields easily.

 

[infomon]

also, i didnt slide off the edge into spinshot, if i hold down be at the very edge, you stay on the stage, and can spinshot out of downB.

[1] What he did was start the charge as he reached the ledge, slid off, then did spinshot.
[2] Was 6% done with a 'slowed down' ASC? For all practical purposes, it usually does 7 though. Ay, forgot to mention that 11% one lol. That's what made me realize that the SDR's damage was based on speed instead of charge.

1. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're all talking about the same thing. It's the transition of SDR > ASC that enables the spinshot, you're just launching the SDR directly out of SC at the edge of the stage. If that's easier to time/space right for an edge spinshot, then that's cool.

2. It was with a shorthopped ASC. I just let the control stick go from Down to Neutral, thus releasing the ASC. Not sure if that's what you mean by "slowed down". ASC's hitbox doesn't last very long at all if the stick's in neutral; about half as much coverage as the hitbox of SD's hop? I think the hitbox starts at like 11% right off the bat, but the ASC slows really fast if you're not pushing it forward.

Napz: congrats on your Perfect Combo progress! I need to step it up

Backwards ASC is pretty neat. You don't even need the spring. Here are two lol-combos I pulled off, randomly:

1. Battlefield. Link on the bottom centre, Sonic directly above him on the top platform, facing right. Sonic double-jumps and uses the 2nd jump to rise an ASC aimed forward (right), but leaning it left so it comes down on Link from top-right to bottom-left. Link is popped forward (right) whereas I'm now behind him. I press Up just before the ASC lands on the ground so it goes into an immediate SDJ, followed by Uair.

2. Final Destination. Sonic standing to the right of Link, facing left. VSDJ > jump out at its highest peak > rising ASC, leaning it backwards > hits link from the left for 11 damage > shield-cancel ASC's landing and pivot Utilt.

SDJ is juust tall enough that you don't need to use a spring to hit someone with a backwards ASC on FD

Something else I noticed:
SDR>ASC angle weirdness:

From Battlefield's highest platform, double-jump and quickly use ASC or ASD. Aim it so that it falls straight down onto the top platform. The ASC/ASD becomes an SDR and rolls off the side (don't let it turnaround)... but when it transitions to ASC, it just drops straight down again.... then it turns into SDR on the platform, but again it rolls into an ASC with no horizontal momentum.

Kinda neat, but I wasn't able to get any real tricks out of it.

Wall-jump > SD hop onto stage is fun.

 

[Napilopez]

I would just like to point out again the awesomeness of RARing(Reverse Aerial Rush) ASCs... Its basically an easy, really quick, and effective way of doing backwards ASCs. Twas actually how I got one of the perfect combos XD. Now if I can land it on someone smaller than boozer... If i landed a perfect combo on Olimar, ever, I'd go insane trying to recreate it all the time.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Guys, we should honestly do some B-sticking. I have made a new control setting which is basicly the old one, except X = grab (Z still is too), B is shield (OMFG this makes shielding so much better), C-stick and R = B button (R for homing attack and some tricky stuff like spinshot, charging SC, SD and for Homing Attack.

EDIT: Immedeate found: If you run and press the side you're running away from, you're doing a RAR. I don't care if it's known, it's pretty cool for ASC.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Tenki, make a post devoted to B-sticking. Another thing: Spinshot made easier; Press C-stick side to (t)roll, go to neutral, quickly to down, do an easy spinshot. Note: Does not work in air. Result in instant double jump

Moar finds:

Flicking C-stick down makes you do an unloaded SC (not shooting it). If you like ASC and your opponent goes to block it, great for SH-ing this; it fakes them out into blocking. This auto-cancels (if it's the right term) and immedeatly lets you grab.

Negative point: No stutterstepping for Sonic . Ah well, I think B-sticking weighs it out, and that's after using it 3 hours. BTW, the R to B-button transition is very good. Sometimes I still press B, but that's quickly gone.

 

[Chis]

You can still stutter step with the control stick...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Even more reason to B-stick.

 

[Tenki]

The aerials are the problem with B-sticking D;

and instant dash attacks. and DAC's.

Or maybe not.
Maybe a 632 roll (lol)+A can do IDA's.

 

[Napilopez]

What exactly is the advantage of B-Sticking again? Can't you do everything you do with b-sticking from a standard setup?

I likez me wiichuck setup kthx. Just about everything is too easy with it XD

=P

 

[Jim Morrison]

The aerials are the problem with B-sticking D;

lrn2a-button.

and instant dash attacks. and DAC's.

I never got the use of instant dash attacks. It's much easier to do A button. And DAC is too useless to be a reason not to B-stick

Or maybe not.
Maybe a 632 roll (lol)+A can do IDA's.

WTF?

Anyway, you should still make a part on B-sticking. I want to know EVERYTHING about side/down-special (THATS THEIR NAMES NOW)

 

[Jim Morrison]

What exactly is the advantage of B-Sticking again? Can't you do everything you do with b-sticking from a standard setup?

I likez me wiichuck setup kthx. Just about everything is too easy with it XD

=P

BWAHAHRHARRHAR you have no C-stick. And yea, B-sticking is too great. Spring is great, Auto-RAR is great, ASC is great, fakeout ASC is great. R-button = B-button is too good. I might not keep B-stick, but I definitly will switch R-button and B-button around.

 

[Tenki]

lrn2a-button.

I never got the use of instant dash attacks. It's much easier to do A button. And DAC is too useless to be a reason not to B-stick


WTF?

Anyway, you should still make a part on B-sticking. I want to know EVERYTHING about side/down-special (THATS THEIR NAMES NOW)

Sorry,
aerial+DI.

1IDA's are awesome for rhythm throwoffs and counterattacks.

2roll from forward to down lol.

3falconpunch

 

[Jim Morrison]

Tenki, you're talking nonsense. English please.

 

[Tenki]

C-stick is more useful for spacing aerials (especially retreating aerials, fastfall U-airs, etc) and keeps your left thumb free to control your DI while you're moving - you can float as you wish and if you get hit, you can perform DI alot more handily.

Tenki, make a post devoted to B-sticking. Another thing: Spinshot made easier; Press C-stick side to (t)roll, go to neutral, quickly to down, do an easy spinshot. Note: Does not work in air. Result in instant double jump

Moar finds:

Flicking C-stick down makes you do an unloaded SC (not shooting it). If you like ASC and your opponent goes to block it, great for SH-ing this; it fakes them out into blocking. This auto-cancels (if it's the right term) and immedeatly lets you grab.

Negative point: No stutterstepping for Sonic . Ah well, I think B-sticking weighs it out, and that's after using it 3 hours. BTW, the R to B-button transition is very good. Sometimes I still press B, but that's quickly gone.

I can do spinshots just fine the normal way. It's a timing thing that you should learn. And it not working in the air? wut.

hitting down B and releasing down does the same exact thing.

I don't see any benefits to it that deserves special attention.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Still, I think we need to look further into B-sticking, cause if someone can be flashy with B-moves, it's Sonic. Look at what I found in 2 hours already.

 

[Tenki]

You found an alternative to spinshot that doesn't even work in the air, and you found an alternative to SH tap down-B?

?_?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Amazing, is it not. And it's only the beginning.

 

[Chis]

At the cost of easier stutter steps, easier DAC, retreating Fair and hyphen smashes...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Durr fine.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You found an alternative to spinshot that doesn't even work in the air, and you found an alternative to SH tap down-B?

?_?

At the cost of easier stutter steps, easier DAC, retreating Fair and hyphen smashes...

Thats enough people his *** needs some rest.

 

[Boxob]

Yeah, tap jump on.

It's the only way to play.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Tap jump is for the kings.

 

[Napilopez]

BWAHAHRHARRHAR you have no C-stick. And yea, B-sticking is too great. Spring is great, Auto-RAR is great, ASC is great, fakeout ASC is great. R-button = B-button is too good. I might not keep B-stick, but I definitly will switch R-button and B-button around.

Smashes on Dpad AND optional shake smash > cstick, kthx. And no worries about the stick registering the wrong moves, as I've heard people complain about.

I wish more people would see the wonders of the wiichuck. Everything is right where you need it. Precious frame advantage by finger location ftw.

Anther should switch to wiichuck so he can finally spinshot easily lololol. =P just playin pikachu man.

EDIT:

Eww, tap jump.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I used played WiiChuk in august.

I got addicted.

IT feels better than GC controller.

But not nearly as effective.

 

[Boxob]

GCC is the best, sorry.

 

[infomon]

I hate tap-jump, I even hated it in Melee... I cannot up-tilt with it lol, and it tends to eat my jumps in the air too; which is ueber-deadly for Sonic.

Nevertheless, I'd been jealous of tap-jump users for up-B and up-smash out-of-shield..... but it turns out you can do that with tap-jump off You just need to jump-cancel the up-B or up-smash. Moar tech skill ftw!

 

[thecatinthehat]

I keep it on.

Too lazy to turn it off lol.

And it would ruin my Melee game even more.

 

[Napilopez]

Why wud wiichuck not be as effective as GC? -_-

 

[Kinzer]

A lot of people are too lazy to switch from a GCC to a WiiChuck... I'm too lazy to take the battieries of of my Wiimote!

 

[thecatinthehat]

C-stick.

D-pad could work too i guess, but it's too akwardly placed.

with the GCC, all controls are in reachable positions.

 

[infomon]

Am I the only one who uses Classic Controller? It's beast. L and R aren't giant sponges that make shielding difficult/imprecise, and I use ZL as Jump which makes DAC'ing easier (run and ZL with left hand, then with the right hand quickly C-stick smash up along ZR (grab) to charge the smash if you want to lol.

I should start using ZL=jump for easier up-B/up-smash out-of-shield, too.

 

[Napilopez]

C-stick.

D-pad could work too i guess, but it's too akwardly placed.

with the GCC, all controls are in reachable positions.

Sry CiTH, but this post fails.

With Wiichuck, you don't even have to reach for anything... Everything is just there. Thats actually it main advantage over GC and VC controllers. With GC and VC, you have to constantly flail your finger up and down between the abxy and the cystick. Not to mention log shoulder button presses.

With the Wiichuck, and smashes set to D-pad or shake smash, your hand and fingers are perfectly positions so that you barely have to move them at all. No matter how quick your fingers may be, it won't be as quick as simply having your thumb right where you need it, 100% of the time.

Just about the only disadvancage of the Dpad is that you need to use the analog stick as well if you wanna tilt smashes.

And DAC is too easy.

Lulz about shake smash:

Sometimes, when I'm playing someone I know is better than me, or even just when I'm pwning, my leg will start to shake, and hence accidentally perform a smash attack. Humorously, most of the time this happens, I get a kill XD.

Small frame advantages which can come so much in handy.

 

[infomon]

I would have thought shake-smash input would be less precise, or at least slower, than hitting C-stick with my thumb. *shrug*

 

[memphischains]

The aerials are the problem with B-sticking D;

and instant dash attacks. and DAC's.

Or maybe not.
Maybe a 632 roll (lol)+A can do IDA's.

aerials are that big of an issue?
i never had a problem.

i used to b-stick because i secretly mained lucas for tournaments.

 

[infomon]

B-sticking would be very weird with Sonic, since the stick can't hold down for you to charge down-B... you have to B-stick down, then jam the control stick down soon enough that it gets its first charge in at least, lulz.

Back on topic....
Holy crap, I just figured out why I'm still sometimes unexpectedly losing my 2nd jump during an SD or an SC. I know that ASC/SD passes remaining jump data to an SDR>SDJ and all that.... but what I didn't realize is that this information doesn't get updated until you either jump off a platform, or get hit by an attack. You can sort of "air-trip" with your midair jump and the spin specials, the way you can airtrip with a Spring.... we could call this "midair-tripping" lol

Here's what I mean. Jump > Jump > ASC shield-cancel the landing, and walk around the stage a bit. You'd think you have your jumps restored, right? Wrong! If you use a grounded SC or SD (including SDJ/VSDJ), your 2nd jump is gone! Because when you shield-cancelled the ASC's landing, you didn't really land. Alternatively, go on a high platform and ASC down, such that the ASC ends before you reach the bottom platform. In this case you landed properly, so if you use a spin special off the ground, it can be jump-cancelled.

I never really caught on to this phenomena, because I rarely use spindashes off the ground lol.

After a "midair trip" (landing on the ground in a spinspecial after using your 2nd jump), you have to jump off the stage to restore it (or get hit lol). You can use as many grounded SCs and SDs as you want, it won't restore the jump data.

Of further note, you know how SC and SD have some start-up lag frames? (SD's lag frames are the ones you see before you can shield-cancel it) Landing in those frames is a "proper landing" that restores your jump data. But anytime afterwards, it's a midair trip (if your 2nd jump is gone). This explains why using SD to bounce VSDJ's around the stage can seem inconsistent about when your jump is available (assuming you'd used your midair jump at some point).

Another thing:

Spin Dash Jump (SDJ):

Ending:
- If you you had a double jump during the charge, you can use it out of the SDJ by hitting [Up] or [Jump]
- You can immediately cancel the SDJ with an Aerial, Airdodge, Spring, or Homing Attack. You have to wait until after the hitbox goes away before you can start a new side/down-B.​

You can also cancel an SDJ with an item-throw. Furthermore, you can Z-drop items from SDJ, and it doesn't cancel the SDJ! Neat, huh?