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What is your most hated criticism against your most wanted character?

jamesster445

Smash Lord
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I've been hearing this a lot but from I'll let his fans decide on this one.

"Erdrick is a generic JRPG hero."

But from what I've heard from a lot of his fans. Erdrick is only generic because he played the groundwork. If that's the case, that's like saying Superman is a generic superhero when he was basically the first.
 

Mamboo07

Smash Hero
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Hollow Earth
With my most wanted Banjo making into Smash here's two of my other wanted characters
Bandana Dee: "Hat Goomba and a generic enemy"
Poochy: don't have nothing to say
Yeah... i think they won't be in the DLC properly 3rd Party reps instead of these two
 
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TemporalShrew

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
360
"Ace Attorney doesn't have much material from which to make a moveset."

I feel like anyone who makes this argument about a series with 6 mainline titles (and counting) on top of 5 spin-off titles isn't even trying to think of a valid criticism.
 
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YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
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Dec 24, 2001
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Still up Peach's dress.
A recent one: "They'd be boring"

Look, I'll be honest here; Smash 4's darlings of Ridley and K. Rool got in and honestly their movesets didn't leave me stunned. They're absolutely fine, but fans often come up with sometimes outrageous move sets that in reality just wouldn't work(I'm just as guilty of this). Remember all the talk about K.Rool using Kredits? Didn't happen.

I'd rather have a 'boring' functional moveset on a prestigious Nintendo character than an incredibly gimmicky one on a character that's niche. I want to play as video game icons not impractical movesets.

This argument applies to Toad, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and before her reveal: Isabelle. It gets thrown around a lot for the semi cutesy platformed characters actually.


Edit: oops, looks like I already posted this one. Seen it thrown about for Dixie a lot recently and thought I'd vent.
 
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osby

Smash Obsessed
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Apr 25, 2018
Messages
23,497
I'd rather have a 'boring' functional moveset on a prestigious Nintendo character than an incredibly gimmicky one on a character that's niche. I want to play as video game icons not impractical movesets.
A moveset can be both interesting and functional.

I'm not a fan of how a lot of people throw characters with unique mechanics under the bus to make other characters look better.
 

YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
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Still up Peach's dress.
Not disagreeing, but when the argument against a character is just they aren't unique due to a lack of gimmicks it's ridiculous. A lot of the characters introduced this game have had massive overlap in base abilities and archetypes aside from the obvious echoes.

Characters can also be both boring AND gimmicky. Looking at Sm4sh Palutena in particular for that one. Glad she's changed for the better in Ultimate.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Regarding Eight from DQ8, it was the "I hate anime swordmen" mentallity, since it was annoying as freaking hell.

Regarding Crash, it would easily be the argument about Banjo being enough platformer representation in Smash. I find it stupid.
 

osby

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Messages
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Characters can also be both boring AND gimmicky. Looking at Sm4sh Palutena in particular for that one. Glad she's changed for the better in Ultimate.
What? Palutena's Smash 4 moveset was less gimmicky if anything. Ultimate fused two of her specials and added Explosive Flame.
 

YoshiandToad

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Still up Peach's dress.
What? Palutena's Smash 4 moveset was less gimmicky if anything. Ultimate fused two of her specials and added Explosive Flame.
Her gimmick was having the most varied customs allowing her to do all kinds of wacky stuff. Which tbh is the Mii's whole schtick so it wasn't even that unique on the roster despite fan claims to the opposite.

This was the push for Palutena's uniqueness. A kitchen sink full of random moves that won't necessarily work well together. Being stuck behind the awful custom move unlock system didn't help either.

At least she has an identity in her abilities now. Just because you can throw a thousand different abilities onto a character to make them 'interesting' doesn't mean you should.
 

GhostM

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May 3, 2019
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One of my most wanted characters for smash is Ryu Hayabusa, but I can already see some examples of criticism against him:

“Oh boy, another sword fighter”

- Man literally uses a Katana in his games, completely different from any sword fighter in Smash. Not only that but he can fight without the use of his swords due to his inclusion in Dead or Alive, and because of his projectiles in the original NES games.


“Isn’t there already a Ryu in the game?”

- Sure there’s already a Ryu, but they can easily change it to include his full name or just shorten it to ‘Ninja Gaiden’.
 

Perkilator

Smash Legend
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The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
One of my most wanted characters for smash is Ryu Hayabusa, but I can already see some examples of criticism against him:

“Oh boy, another sword fighter”

- Man literally uses a Katana in his games, completely different from any sword fighter in Smash. Not only that but he can fight without the use of his swords due to his inclusion in Dead or Alive, and because of his projectiles in the original NES games.


“Isn’t there already a Ryu in the game?”

- Sure there’s already a Ryu, but they can easily change it to include his full name or just shorten it to ‘Ninja Gaiden’.
Plus, we've got two Roys as of Smash 4. I don't think too much confusion will happen over two Ryus.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,628
The "Scorpion is too violet" argument.

I find the argument reasonable, but also just as ridiculous. If I can put this simply, Scorpion is so translatable to Smash, its incredible. Scorpion "toned" down in Smash would be as if he was never even toned down. Suddenly we'd all be used to it, more hyped than anything because in Smash's case, it was never relevant.

Scorpion would still have his MK aesthetic while carrying the whole "Friendship" routine.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The "Scorpion is too violet" argument.

I find the argument reasonable, but also just as ridiculous. If I can put this simply, Scorpion is so translatable to Smash, its incredible. Scorpion "toned" down in Smash would be as if he was never even toned down. Suddenly we'd all be used to it, more hyped than anything because in Smash's case, it was never relevant.

Scorpion would still have his MK aesthetic while carrying the whole "Friendship" routine.
Not to mention that Injustice 1 showcased that Scorpion could be done without a Rated M criteria.
 

jamesster445

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2015
Messages
1,136
The "Scorpion is too violet" argument.

I find the argument reasonable, but also just as ridiculous. If I can put this simply, Scorpion is so translatable to Smash, its incredible. Scorpion "toned" down in Smash would be as if he was never even toned down. Suddenly we'd all be used to it, more hyped than anything because in Smash's case, it was never relevant.

Scorpion would still have his MK aesthetic while carrying the whole "Friendship" routine.
They can tone him down to Injustice levels. If that's good enough to fight Batman then it should be enough to fight Mario.
 
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andree123

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2016
Messages
752
Lloyd - Fans wanted Yuri instead because his personality is better than Lloyd's personality and ignoring how Lloyd is more unique than Yuri.
Sylux - Nobody cares about Sylux coming back as DLC and prefer to have the last one to be a 3rd party instead of a 1st party.
 

Michael the Spikester

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The "Scorpion is too violet" argument.

I find the argument reasonable, but also just as ridiculous. If I can put this simply, Scorpion is so translatable to Smash, its incredible. Scorpion "toned" down in Smash would be as if he was never even toned down. Suddenly we'd all be used to it, more hyped than anything because in Smash's case, it was never relevant.

Scorpion would still have his MK aesthetic while carrying the whole "Friendship" routine.
Especially when we already have guys like :ultridley:

Ridley's Skewer alone despite not it is an rather violent move.
 

3DSNinja

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
1,390
Shadow:
“He is just Black Sonic”
Have you played any Sonic game, EVER? They. Are. Two. Different. Characters. Also richter.
“He would just be another Daisy”
No. Just... no. He would have a Chaos Control up-b, some different normals, and more. More like Ken then anything.
“He is less popular then Tails and Eggman”
That is a lie. Multiple fanpolls have Shadow just behind the blue blur himself.
“Sonic doesn’t deserve a second rep”
Castlevania and Street Fighter got one. And Sonic is the only third party to be in 3 Smash games. I would say that he does deserve another character alongside him.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
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The Mimikyu is misrepresented argument make me cringe so hard. I get that it isn't an argument against its inclusion, but its so annoying. :hulk: Really, dude?! Mimikyu, WILL NEVER KILL PIKACHU! HAPPY!? I don't want to play as a "Friendly" Mimikyu. I want a Mimikyu that will mirror its savage combos from the anime, get over it.
 

Perkilator

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The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
The Mimikyu is misrepresented argument make me cringe so hard. I get that it isn't an argument against its inclusion, but its so annoying. :hulk: Really, dude?! Mimikyu, WILL NEVER KILL PIKACHU! HAPPY!? I don't want to play as a "Friendly" Mimikyu. I want a Mimikyu that will mirror its savage combos from the anime, get over it.
Well, that's entirely subjective. I just came up with a theory that Mimyiku lashes out so much in the anime because he's sick of everyone leaving him alone for Pikachu. He acts savage towards Pikachu because he's finally found the root of the problem.

But hey, that's only my theory.
 

Perkilator

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I apologize deeply for the triple post, but I wanted to bump this thread to see if it would be okay to talk in it again, so long as it was civil?

A pet peeve of mine is that Spirit Events are a definite deconfirmation when some of the characters used for the Spirits (Jill Valentine, for example) could just use different artwork for their Fighter Spirits.
 
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Lionfranky

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
1,012
Master Chief...
"Halo and Xbox did poorly in Japan, so they are out!"
110k sales of Halo 3 isn't that much lower than Banjo's 400k sales in Japan. Bungie had match against Japanese team. A bunch of Japanese anime studios created Halo anime shorts. Halo anime sold decently there iirc. Halo is at least recognizable in Japan. Sales isn't always fame factor.
Undertale is a good example. If Chief can't get in because of this, then Reimu and Doom Slayer are out of question because they have obscurity problem far worse.
 
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smash puffle

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Something something StarTropics never released in Japan "argument".
Like seriously, I've lost count at how many times I've heard the same old excuses against Mike Jones EVEN AS A SPIRIT. Sometimes you just want to stick bananas up your ears for real and hit their heads with a baseball bat.
 

Mamboo07

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Something something StarTropics never released in Japan "argument".
Like seriously, I've lost count at how many times I've heard the same old excuses against Mike Jones EVEN AS A SPIRIT. Sometimes you just want to stick bananas up your ears for real and hit their heads with a baseball bat.
Makes it sadder that Startropics is a dead series.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Something something StarTropics never released in Japan "argument".
Like seriously, I've lost count at how many times I've heard the same old excuses against Mike Jones EVEN AS A SPIRIT. Sometimes you just want to stick bananas up your ears for real and hit their heads with a baseball bat.
To be fair, the core difference is that it's a series in Japan so an obscure series in Japan is more likely that Sakurai could know about it than an obscure series in other regions.

So it's not a completely nonsense point. That said, I think it being a spirit is pretty easy to come by. But that only helps if it got Smash Ballot attention or Sakurai and his crew takes enough notice to include it. A character is a different story and would require a lot of fan demand to get some reasonable attention. Though if it helps, it's Nintendo who is choosing the DLC this time, so them recognizing the character has a pretty decent chance. As for them suggesting it, thattttt's another story.

I hope we get some more lesser known character spirits, really.
 

Dorayaki

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2019
Messages
376
Remember the overpresentation topic has a lot to do with the everyone theme for Smash 5, still. If we're in another regular Smash game where a lot of FE or Pokemon fighters are cut, at least it wouldn't bother for Nintendo to add a fighter to advertise their newest titles from those franchises.


Two arguments against Waluigi:

"He was only made to be Wario's partner!"

"He doesn't have moveset potential!"
First of all, play the spin-offs.
Well all characters fight alone, so their qualification doesn't rely on their partners. Plus Wario and Waluigi don't represent same series in Smash classification. In the case of Waluigi, his direct rivals are Mario, Browser and others, not Wario.

And it's been discussed a lot. Spinoffs are the basic references for all Mario main cast, so that all Mario fighters have for what Waluigi has at this point.

King K. Rool, before his confirmation:

"He's irrelevant, he hasn't been in a game in ten years!"
While I have been his supportor, I would not think this is an invalid point:

1) Such opinion could be from supportors of other characters from the same franchise, such as in DK series we have Dixie, Cranky and Pauline who are still making new appearances, and those characters sure do have what it takes to compete as well.

2) If we like the characters, what we should really concern is that why Nintendo don't volunteerly try to put the characters in more game but just keep them absent. In the case of KRool, fans are mad because he has been absent from many DK/Mario games that he could had easily fit in.

Irrelevancy can be fixed, I think that's the positive attitude fans should take.
 
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Morgana J. Cat

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 17, 2019
Messages
102
-Conker
-"He's too mature" (but Metal Gear Solid, Persona, and freaking Bayonetta... totally kid friendly).


-Geno
-"There are much more important Mario characters out there" :facepalm:
 

KahunaLagoona DX

Smash Cadet
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Jan 7, 2019
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35
"Ezio could never be in Smash, Assassin's Creed has no connection to Nintendo/It's more relevant to the Xbox/Playstation fanbase than anything!"

And while the name of the franchise was censored in the US release of the Mii Costume trailer (I assume it had something to do with the death of Qasem Soleimani) the fact that the series is represented in Smash means that the whole series not connected to Smash argument is irrelevant.

The fact that they went with Altair as a Mii Costume as opposed to the most recognizable character (Ezio) also lays some groundwork.

Lloyd Irving:
  • "Yuri has better chances."
    This is demonstrably wrong in so many ways that there's a section dedicated entirely to Yuri vs Lloyd in the Lloyd Support Thread. We've got polls, developer interviews, ballot results, and Sakurai himself flat-out saying that Lloyd is unquestionably the definitive Tales pick a full year after the Smash Ultimate project plan was finished.

  • "Tales is too obscure."
    Tales is the biggest traditional JRPG franchise after Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Bigger than Persona, bigger than Yakuza, bigger than Paper Mario, bigger than Kingdom Hearts. It's bigger than Ni no kuni, Disgaea, Chrono, Yo-Kai Watch, Golden Sun, Bravely Default, Atelier, Xeno, Suikoden, and Etrian Odyssey combined, and then some. It has spawned two dozen mangas, several animes, some movies, drama CDs, an annual festival hosted in stadiums that over 20k people attend, and was considered for a ride at Universal Studios Japan alongside franchises like Final Fantasy, Sailor Moon, and Detective Conan. This series has sold over 25 million mothership titles, and that's not counting the insane number of auxiliary content (animes, mangas, movies, arcade machines, the festival, and an absurd amount of merchandise). Lloyd himself has appeared in more than ten games, and his original games are more than just mildly popular, given that ToS and ToS 2 alone moved almost 5 million units.

  • "Heihachi would be Namco's second rep."
    Honestly the only argument that harbors any potency, and even then you ought to consider that we've now got at least one confirmed instance of triple third party reps, the fact that Tales has significantly more pull with the casual audience than Heihachi does, and the fact that Lloyd would be far easier to implement, as 90% of his moveset is already in the game.

  • "He'd be yet another anime sword fighter."
    First things first: sword fighters are far from over represented. Secondly, the arte system and his ToS build would render Lloyd not only fairly distinct from other sword fighters, but it would also make him a very unique character in the roster at large.
Huh... Didn't really look into all that Lloyd VS Yuri stuff. Kinda just assumed that Yuri would make it over Lloyd because of how popular he is with actual Tales fans, as opposed to Lloyd who while popular seemed more favored towards those who played Symphonia on Gamecube, and I guess Dawn of a New World on Wii...

Will note that there were people panicking at one point when a Final Fantasy game pulled less numbers than the then current Tales game, some actually saying "I can't believe TALES is doing better than us!"

Endless Ocean is a dead franchise with no support, thus it can’t have a rep.
Endless Ocean has characters that can’t fight or wouldn’t work.

I would assume those would be the criticisms towards Endless Ocean if anyone actually cared about it to begin with.
I mean... No playable character rep for sure, but I don't see why there wasn't a stage... Or ANY reference for that matter.

As for Music, if I recall correctly part of the game's gimmick (aside from diving and petting fish to get your Fish Pokedex filled) was that you could via your SD card play custom music while you dive. Essentially play your playlist while you're playing the game.

Honestly I didn't really like the game myself, I bought it exclusively to deal with my thalassophobia (Ironic given my name) and I still couldn't do it.
 

Powerman293

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
899
Sora: "He's just an unoriginal anime swordsman"

I mean... there's so much to work with regarding Sora. Multiple games having tons of physical key blade moves, magic, limit breaks, movement abilities and so on. I think they can pull enough of his moves together to make him feel different.
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
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For my absolute most wanted (Giana from the Giana Sisters series), I actually understand why people might dismiss her as too niche, or a knockoff Mario. So I'll talk about Toad, another character that I support.

"No one is asking for Toad, they're asking for (insert other Mario series character here)"
Ballot performance shouldn't be the sole deciding factor on which characters get in, Toad's been a part of Mario's core cast for so long that he's well and truly earned his place.

"Toad is just a species and not an individual"
Why should that even matter? (I find this one especially grating since I'm an Inkling main)

"It should be Captain Toad instead"
But then you're just limiting yourself for no reason, Toad's presence in Nintendo's history goes beyond just Captain Toad.

"He's already in Peach's moveset, isn't that good enough?"
Toad's appearance in Peach's moveset is nothing more than an afterthought, an Assist Trophy would have been the superior consolation prize by far. Look at how Waluigi has his own voice and AI, he isn't superglued to another character like Toad is, he isn't relegated to just a few frames of animation, and using a tennis racket makes sense for him. (On the other hand, shooting spores was never really Toad's thing)
 
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UserKev

Smash Champion
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May 10, 2017
Messages
2,628
The too violent argument is strangely.. amusing. I'm always in the mood to combat it, its fun.
 
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