What is your most hated criticism against your most wanted character?

Tyler730

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I personally want Waluigi in Smash Bros. Here’s some common criticisms against him.

“He hasn’t appeared in a main installment.”

Okay that is true but does it really matter? I believe anyone can be in Smash Bros. if they can have a fun and creative moveset and I believe Waluigi has a potential moveset.

“We don’t need anymore Mario reps.”

Well Mario is Nintendo’s most popular franchise. It makes sense that there’s a lot of characters. Of course I’m not saying that fifteen more Mario characters should be added. That would be too much. Plus it’s kind of weird that the rest of the playable cast in spinoffs is part of the roster and not Waluigi.

“Sakurai got harassed by some Waluigi fans so he doesn’t deserve to be playable.”

I understand that harassing Sakurai is wrong. Like seriously. Be grateful that we’re getting every flipping character back. But that was only two people and not the entire fanbase. I think that’s a bit of an overreaction.

And perhaps the worst one yet and the only one that makes me really angry...

“Waluigi has no personality so he doesn’t deserve to be in Smash.”

Um, who said that a character needs a personality to be in Smash Bros., a PARTY game. Also Waluigi does have a personality. He’s very self-centered. He’s extremely cocky when he wins and sour when he loses. He also has a tendency to dance a lot as most of his appearances involve him dancing. Plus, even if he didn’t have a personality, we still have characters like :ultgnw::ultpiranha::ultrob::ultwiifittrainer: that have no personality and are playable in Smash. So screw that criticism.

Despite him still being an assist trophy, I’m still very grateful for what Sakurai did and I think everyone should be as well. The constant flame wars need to end already and everyone needs to respect each other’s opinions. If you don’t want Waluigi in Smash, that’s perfectly okay.
 

Room100

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For any character (but in particular Doom Slayer):

"Too violent!!!"

Everything in Smash is violent. The only difference is the things getting hit don't bleed and slice apart. Bullets can be made into big flashy blasts, blades don't cut people, and Doom Slayer isn't gonna rip Mario's jaw off.
 
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“Sakurai got harassed by some Waluigi fans so he doesn’t deserve to be playable.”

I understand that harassing Sakurai is wrong. Like seriously. Be grateful that we’re getting every flipping character back. But that was only two people and not the entire fanbase. I think that’s a bit of an overreaction.
Those people actually do know this but they just like to have an excuse to detract from Waluigi with the bonus of riding a moral high horse. They never wanted Waluigi in the first place.
 
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My most wanted character is Earthworm Jim, and my most hated criticism is that his creator Doug Tennapel is some kind of *******.

Doug is actually a really kind and generous person, and a much better human being than most of his critics. If anything this ignorant stereotype about him makes me want Jim in Smash even more because it'll make them all cry about him being celebrated. I can see that they'll all parade ignorant assumptions about him as facts so it'd be fun to see his creations being praised in a way that gives them aneurysms.
 

JoyStar

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"Skull Kid is irrelevant".

The plot of Majora's Mask literally hinges on everything Skull Kid does. He transports Link to Termina and turns him into a Deku scrub. He gets possessed by Majora's Mask and with Majora's control sets the Moon on a steady course to fall in 3 days. He turns Kefkei into a child. He's a lonely forest child who parallels Link, but he has not grown up mentally while Link has through Ocarina of Time. One of Skull Kid's two companion faries tags along with Link, and she just wants to reunite with her brother and stop Skull Kid. Skull Kid is literally the catalyst for everything that happens in the entire game. The story of Majora's Mask literally cannot exist without him. You take out Skull Kid, Majora's Mask never happens at all.

Just because a character isn't on screen the entire game doesn't make them irrelevant. Anyone who calls Skull Kid irrelevant either never played Majora's Mask or didn't pay any attention to the plot whatsoever.
 
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My most wanted character is Earthworm Jim, and my most hated criticism is that his creator Doug Tennapel is some kind of *******.

Doug is actually a really kind and generous person, and a much better human being than most of his critics. If anything this ignorant stereotype about him makes me want Jim in Smash even more because it'll make them all cry about him being celebrated. I can see that they'll all parade ignorant assumptions about him as facts so it'd be fun to see his creations being praised in a way that gives them aneurysms.
...The guy went on a widely-publicized transphobic twitter tirade against someone who criticized the game, and supported the comic version of Gamergate.

Granted, I don't think he's the IP owner anymore (frankly I forget what Jim's ownership ended up being) so I don't see how it would affect Smash, but let's not pass Doug Tennapel off as even a half-decent person, never mind a "kind and generous" one.
 
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PsychoJosh

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...The guy went on a widely-publicized transphobic twitter tirade against someone who criticized the game, and supported the comic version of Gamergate.
Every criticism in this comment is flawed from the ground up and makes a lot of assumptions. The comic version of gamergate, much like gamergate itself, was and still is a good thing. Comic creators becoming more independent and standing up against ideological zealots in their industry is something to be celebrated. This if anything is just more proof of him being much more decent and pleasant than his detractors.
 
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To answer the thread question, I just get tired of "Ugh, another Fire Emblem character." Like hell yeah another Fire Emblem character.

Every criticism in this comment is flawed from the ground up and makes a lot of assumptions. The comic version of gamergate, much like gamergate itself, was and still is a good thing. Comic creators becoming more independent and standing up against ideological zealots in their industry is something to be celebrated. This if anything is just more proof of him being much more decent and pleasant than his detractors.
Yikes. There's a lot to unpack here (especially the sidestepping of the transphobia issue) but this really isn't the thread for it.
 

PsychoJosh

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Yikes. There's a lot to unpack here (especially the sidestepping of the transphobia issue) but this really isn't the thread for it.
I felt the same way about your post, but I agree.

And I'm definitely in the "ugh, another Fire Emblem character" camp. Guess we don't really see eye to eye on very much.
 
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Love Tap

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If they can shamelessly do character clones like pit and dark pit, samus and dark samus, etc. then to be honest, most criticisms against character inclusion I find to be pretty invalid. I do remember quite a bit of people saying to just forget about Ridley getting in because he's too big and it won't happen, haha.

Normally, I would have agreed with the critique that lesser enemies like the one the OP mentioned shouldn't be included, but they added in piranha plant, so I guess he stands a chance. I'm just not happy about it, lol. I still want Jack Frost to get in even though Joker has been confirmed. I mean, yeah, he probably won't, but if pokemon trainer can exist separately from jigglypuff, mewtwo, and pikachu and pichu, a persona/demon is fair game.
 
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Luigifan18

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If they can shamelessly do character clones like pit and dark pit, samus and dark samus, etc. then to be honest, most criticisms against character inclusion I find to be pretty invalid. I do remember quite a bit of people saying to just forget about Ridley getting in because he's too big and it won't happen, haha.

Normally, I would have agreed with the critique that lesser enemies like the one the OP mentioned shouldn't be included, but they added in piranha plant, so I guess he stands a chance. I'm just not happy about it, lol. I still want Jack Frost to get in even though Joker has been confirmed. I mean, yeah, he probably won't, but if pokemon trainer can exist separately from jigglypuff, mewtwo, and pikachu and pichu, a persona/demon is fair game.
To be fair on the Ridley point, Sakurai himself essentially said Ridley was too big (more accurately, that Ridley couldn't be scaled down in size enough or have his aerial mobility restricted enough to be on a decently level enough playing field with the other playable characters to be playable himself while still remaining true to his essence and character as Ridley). Clearly, Sakurai and his team found a way to overcome those challenges during the planning and development of Ultimate.
 
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Banjo and Kazooie never happening because if we got a Microsoft owned character it would be Steve from Minecraft because of relevancy and marketing reasons. Since Smash Bros has went full shill mode with Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate's DLC looking to be the same it's most likely true, which is why I hate it even more.

I'm just so sick of seeing the word "relevant" in Smash speculation now.

Yikes. There's a lot to unpack here
Is this satire? lol
 

PsychoJosh

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Banjo and Kazooie never happening because if we got a Microsoft owned character it would be Steve from Minecraft because of relevancy and marketing reasons.
There's no chance of this happening. "Relevancy" is itself irrelevant. If it were relevant, we wouldn't have gotten Simon, Richter or K. Rool.

On top of that Steve has numerous problems with his design that are huge obstacles preventing him from getting in. Nintendo knows that the #1 Microsoft character people want are Banjo and Kazooie. Relatively few people want Steve in comparison, however noisy they may be. I'm VERY confident that Steve is not happening.
 
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Nah, I'm being genuine.
Oh. lol

You really can't believe that any DLC besides Corrin and MAYBE Bayo were shill picks, can you?
Well I mean there's also Gamefreak's guaranteed slot they get every game now to advertise their newest flavor of the month Pokemon. Not all of them were shill picks though, I'm just bummed that the Steve guys are probably 100% right is all. lol
 

TheCJBrine

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On top of that Steve has numerous problems with his design that are huge obstacles preventing him from getting in. Nintendo knows that the #1 Microsoft character people want are Banjo and Kazooie. Relatively few people want Steve in comparison, however noisy they may be. I'm VERY confident that Steve is not happening.
I want both but...

-Steve's "huge obstacles" should actually be minor, contrary to popular belief he can move his limbs in all directions, and they could make new animations anyway as they did for every other character.

-They could use his design from official Minecraft artwork that's on its website and merchandise.

-To make him expressive, simply change some pixels on his face to make his eyes and mouth appear wide, or just take from Minecraft: Dungeons since the expressions shown there (and right-angle limb animations too) actually fit the original Minecraft style.

If they can make Game & Watch work, they can make Steve work.

also:

-Many Minecraft fans would love Steve/a Creeper to be playable; people asked for Steve on Miiverse, and more-recently there was a post on the Minecraft subreddit with positive reception (as well as someone asking about Steve/Smash at Minecon). Genuine fans may not be very vocal compared to the trolls, but can we really compare how much characters are wanted when we have fanbases like Sora and Skull Kid who have fans that are relatively silent save for some places outside of the main Smash Bros. sites?
 
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PsychoJosh

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I want both but...

-Steve's "huge obstacles" should actually be minor, contrary to popular belief he can move his limbs in all directions, and they could make new animations anyway as they did for every other character.
You're not talking about the "jello arms" from Minecraft story mode, are you? Those animations look absolutely horrible and defeat the whole purpose of having the Minecraft blocky appearance to begin with. Steve's appearance is meant to mimic retro graphics, but the problem is that he wasn't designed by someone who understood old graphics very well, and as a result his design completely misses the point. Early 3D games didn't look blocky by choice, they tried to look as good as they possibly could with the limited hardware power they had.

-They could use his design from official Minecraft artwork that's on its website and merchandise.
Not seeing the difference.

-To make him expressive, simply change some pixels on his face to make his eyes and mouth appear wide, or just take from Minecraft: Dungeons since the expressions shown there (and right-angle limb animations too) actually fit the original Minecraft style.
The Minecraft dungeons animation style with texture offset faces seems more suitable, but the problem is the actual animation still sucks in that game. Characters simply snap to key poses without any anticipation frames, which is not just an essential principle of animation, but an actual key to movement in REAL LIFE. If they used that animation style it would still look absolutely horrible.

If they can make Game & Watch work, they can make Steve work.
False equivalence. People commonly point to Mr. G&W as a point for making Steve work, but it actually serves to disprove Steve's legitimacy even further. Game and Watch is:
-A very thoughtfully designed character designed by competent professionals
-An imaginative tribute to Nintendo's earliest forays into handheld gaming
-Not at all limited by his design for his range of motions and attacks
-Is designed in a way that all his attacks and movements are perfectly readable from a side angle despite consisting of nothing but antics and key poses

In essence, Game & Watch is everything Steve is not. G&W fits perfectly in a game full of emotive and fluidly-animated characters precisely because his design has had so much thought put into it, literally the exact opposite of Steve. The only argument anyone has for including Steve is the fact that Minecraft is popular, and that's it. It's an extremely shallow reason to include him, and I don't believe it's good enough. Every character in Smash has had tons of thought poured into their design, but not Steve. Steve was designed by Notch's mom in the two minutes during a rushed car ride to a Mojang meeting. It would actually be insulting to all the other gaming icons who have had tons of tons of heart and thought and even hardship into their designs to be matched with an amateurish rectangle man, who is nothing more than a piece of placeholder developer graphics that never got replaced, from a game that became famous for everything other than its characters.
 
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TheCJBrine

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You're not talking about the "jello arms" from Minecraft story mode, are you? Those animations look absolutely horrible and defeat the whole purpose of having the Minecraft blocky appearance to begin with. Steve's appearance is meant to mimic retro graphics, but the problem is that he wasn't designed by someone who understood old graphics very well, and as a result his design completely misses the point. Early 3D games didn't look blocky by choice, they tried to look as good as they possibly could with the limited hardware power they had.



Not seeing the difference.


The Minecraft dungeons animation style with texture offset faces seems more suitable, but the problem is the actual animation still sucks in that game. Characters simply snap to key poses without any anticipation frames, which is not just an essential principle of animation, but an actual key to movement in REAL LIFE. If they used that animation style it would still look absolutely horrible.



False equivalence. People commonly point to Mr. G&W as a point for making Steve work, but it actually serves to disprove Steve's legitimacy even further. Game and Watch is:
-A very thoughtfully designed character designed by competent professionals
-An imaginative tribute to Nintendo's earliest forays into handheld gaming
-Not at all limited by his design for his range of motions and attacks
-Is designed in a way that all his attacks and movements are perfectly readable from a side angle despite consisting of nothing but antics and key poses

In essence, Game & Watch is everything Steve is not. G&W fits perfectly in a game full of emotive and fluidly-animated characters precisely because his design has had so much thought put into it, literally the exact opposite of Steve. The only argument anyone has for including Steve is the fact that Minecraft is popular, and that's it. It's an extremely shallow reason to include him, and I don't believe it's good enough. Every character in Smash has had tons of thought poured into their design, but not Steve. Steve was designed by Notch's mom in the two minutes during a rushed car ride to a Mojang meeting. It would actually be insulting to all the other gaming icons who have had tons of tons of heart and thought and even hardship into their designs to be matched with an amateurish rectangle man, who is nothing more than a piece of placeholder developer graphics that never got replaced, from a game that became famous for everything other than its characters.

1. I'm talking about his earlier animations, as well as anyone who actually pays attention to his current animations (aside from his walking animations) can notice.

2. The difference is that it would probably fit Ultimate much better than the ingame pixels as it's simple-colored instead of being a bunch of different pixel shades (although I personally wouldn't mind the latter).


3. Then they could leave Steve stiff-limbed and make somewhat-fluid animations for him slipping/punching/whatever, they don't have to be 1:1 to the original game just like some other characters aren't as long as he doesn't have bendy limbs. Personally, I can see the Dungeons style working, as what I recall is that only their limbs snap between either being straight or bent, but even if it is all key-poses, they can easily add fluidity.

4. a. he's based on a calculator-like machine where his standard appearance is a generic person as there's more than one of them. Steve may be generic as well, but like G&W is now, Steve and the Creeper are the faces of their game.

b. agreed but this point doesn't matter in regards to Steve because he's third-party.

c. really because the game & watch characters instantly switch places with limited frames due to the limitations at the time, yet they made it work with maybe some extra frames to make Game & Watch look better and he's a 2D character so it works.

d. yes because he's a 2D character and Steve is a 3D character who can actually have fluid movement even with stiff limbs if they think enough, since his animations are technically fluid in his game save for the stiff limbs (if those even count 'cause I thought fluid animations just had to have smooth frames) and lack of transitions.

5. a. That's an opinion, plus if you think enough/try to come up with stuff you can easily see Steve fitting in except maybe some animations.

b. I'm betting the genuine Steve supporters who bring up that "popular" reason do so only to explain why they may include him other than please many Minecraft/Smash fans, or do so to defend him being "deserving" because they're not sure what else to say, other than that it's just trolls. no character "deserves" to be in, anyway. it's a videogame dang it no one cares they just want who they want.

c. Source for this? I literally never heard of this and I played Minecraft since 2011, I even remember reading that the Creeper came from a messed-up pig model (and after having searching it up and being unable to find it...I'm almost sure this is false if you're not hatefully exaggerating). I just thought they made a texture and stuck with it. They may have been placeholders at first, but the fact they kept them just shows that they ended up liking it as well as everyone who liked the game because otherwise they would've complained a lot. Being an insult to other characters is just an opinion I bet Sakurai, Nintendo and Microsoft don't give any craps about, because they would be choosing Steve or a Creeper to represent Minecraft and what it has to offer + they very likely don't see it that way anyway since most people don't care.

tl;dr Steve can work as his animations can be made fluid even with stiff limbs (and his animations aren't even key-poses anyway), he'd be there to represent Minecraft, and to say he 100% couldn't work is just an insult to Sakurai's creativity as well as other people who I'm sure have thought about how he could animate and work with a moveset. Most of this crap is opinion-based instead of fact-based anyway so I really don't get the points here, as surely Sakurai and Nintendo could do some excellent things with Minecraft and Steve, especially since Sakurai thinks Minecraft is excellent game design.
 
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PsychoJosh

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1. I'm talking about his earlier animations, as well as anyone who actually pays attention to his current animations (aside from his walking animations) can notice.

2. The difference is that it would probably fit Ultimate much better than the ingame pixels as it's simple-colored instead of being a bunch of different pixel shades (although I personally wouldn't mind the latter).


3. Then they could leave Steve stiff-limbed and make somewhat-fluid animations for him slipping/punching/whatever, they don't have to be 1:1 to the original game just like some other characters aren't as long as he doesn't have bendy limbs. Personally, I can see the Dungeons style working, as what I recall is that only their limbs snap between either being straight or bent, but even if it is all key-poses, they can easily add fluidity.

4. a. he's based on a calculator-like machine where his standard appearance is a generic person as there's more than one of them. Steve may be generic as well, but like G&W is now, Steve and the Creeper are the faces of their game.

b. agreed but this point doesn't matter in regards to Steve because he's third-party.

c. really because the game & watch characters instantly switch places with limited frames due to the limitations at the time, yet they made it work with maybe some extra frames to make Game & Watch look better and he's a 2D character so it works.

d. yes because he's a 2D character and Steve is a 3D character who can actually have fluid movement even with stiff limbs if they think enough, since his animations are technically fluid in his game save for the stiff limbs (if those even count 'cause I thought fluid animations just had to have smooth frames) and lack of transitions.

5. a. That's an opinion, plus if you think enough/try to come up with stuff you can easily see Steve fitting in except maybe some animations.

b. I'm betting the genuine Steve supporters who bring up that "popular" reason do so only to explain why they may include him other than please many Minecraft/Smash fans, or do so to defend him being "deserving" because they're not sure what else to say, other than that it's just trolls. no character "deserves" to be in, anyway. it's a videogame dang it no one cares they just want who they want.

c. Source for this? I literally never heard of this and I played Minecraft since 2011, I even remember reading that the Creeper came from a messed-up pig model (and after having searching it up and being unable to find it...I'm almost sure this is false if you're not hatefully exaggerating). I just thought they made a texture and stuck with it. They may have been placeholders at first, but the fact they kept them just shows that they ended up liking it as well as everyone who liked the game because otherwise they would've complained a lot. Being an insult to other characters is just an opinion I bet Sakurai, Nintendo and Microsoft don't give any craps about, because they would be choosing Steve or a Creeper to represent Minecraft and what it has to offer + they very likely don't see it that way anyway since most people don't care.

tl;dr Steve can work as his animations can be made fluid even with stiff limbs (and his animations aren't even key-poses anyway), he'd be there to represent Minecraft, and to say he 100% couldn't work is just an insult to Sakurai's creativity as well as other people who I'm sure have thought about how he could animate and work with a moveset. Most of this crap is opinion-based instead of fact-based anyway so I really don't get the points here, as surely Sakurai and Nintendo could do some excellent things with Minecraft and Steve, especially since Sakurai thinks Minecraft is excellent game design.
We could probably debate this forever, but it doesn't matter. I really don't think Steve has what it takes to get into Smash, and in the end, we're eventually going to find out which one of us is right. I don't believe Sakurai is going to include a Minecraft "character" just because he's a fan of Minecraft's game design. Game design and character design are two completely different things. I understand you like this character but you're really not trying to comprehend any of my points. People DO care about these things, if Sakurai didn't care what a character looked like or animated like we'd have an incomprehensible mess of art styles from vastly different games. The truth is that he works hard to ensure no character sticks out in a grotesque manner (he said so himself in an interview that he had to work hard to make every character fit in with each other), which is impossible to do with such low quality source material like Steve. Animating him with "fluid" limbs just makes his design pointlessly problematic to animate in other ways (why even keep him blocky if he can just move his limbs around like jello? Jello limbs just make everything intersect with each other and looks shabby and unprofessional, in addition to being hard to read and untrue to the source material).

And yes, I do know for a fact that the rectangle man currently known as Steve is nothing more than placeholder developer graphics because I was there on the forum that Notch posted development updates on when Minecraft was just starting and was relatively obscure. He said he had obtained a professional artist to do the final graphics for the game that unfortunately never materialized. These were created by an artist who goes by "Dock" and were what Minecraft was supposed to look like. If Steve only could look like this, I'd have no real problem with him. But the way he looks right now is unacceptable for Smash.


 
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Chinderblock

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While Steve isn't my most wanted by any means, he's honestly one of the few characters that is really easy to get into Smash.

-He fits the series beautifully and has excellent artwork designs that works fine as the main aesthetic. The in-game ones don't look good for Smash's current colorful design, outside of Brawl. The official artwork on the cover proves that to not be an issue.

-Movement isn't an issue either. This is exaggerated a bit too much. His stiff movements are the same style as Mr. Game & Watch, and him being in 2D doesn't matter, since he's just a flattened 3D Model. This is very easy to implement just fine. He can move more than easily enough. If anything, it just means he might be a slower but more varied character in return. Never mind Wario proves how easy this is to do in 3D.

-Character isn't just popular, he's a cultural icon. Same with the series, being a high legacy and iconic series, right up there with Mario, Sonic, and Pac-Man by far(in fact, among video game series, nobody tops these 4 juggernauts of iconicness. They're the cream of the crop. So right now, Smash is missing only one beyond huge series as is. And Steve earned his way a long time ago). And this was before Microsoft bought it out and made merchandise. Now it's even bigger than it already was, and has its own TV show and tons of merchandise. As well as an easy alt in Alex. Besides that, only huge series gets licensed Legos(or Mega Blocks) as is. You won't see it for obscure/niche series. You see it for other cultural impactful series like the various Marvel, DC, and even Power Rangers(Star Wars too). Even Halo got this type of stuff(ironically it got Mega Blocks only, which is meant solely for extremely young kids due to bigger pieces for safety reasons. Legos are meant for pretty much around 7 to any older age).
 

PsychoJosh

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While Steve isn't my most wanted by any means, he's honestly one of the few characters that is really easy to get into Smash.
Everything you said in this post is wrong, and I was typing up explanations as to why, but my browser crashed. I don't really feel like doing it again - it doesn't matter, and in the end, I think Steve fans are just setting themselves up for disappointment. I feel the character has no chance at all of getting in, but we'll see around the end of this year.
 
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I haven't said anything wrong at all, though the only thing that is remotely arguable is his movement at best. Though not really either. Again, that's an exaggeration that he is unable to easily move within the 2D Smash style. Steve can literally do all the necessary movements needed. He doesn't need to do extra leg bends or arm bends. He's still literally a combination of Wario and Mr. Game & Watch movement-wise, who both are known for having intentional janky movement to fit their character in some way. There is no graphical issues at all. That doesn't make any sense when his literal colors are right there that are cartoony from the official artwork. There is no use in denying his cultural status nor how iconic and huge his series is. It's literally the second best selling series(and that's on one game alone due to massive influence) of all time. It's spread to tons of different media and merchandise by now that keeps selling.

Microsoft pretty much will want it represented as well. And Nintendo definitely won't have an issue with it either. Allowing a 3DS Creeper design, and not just simply a possible buyable faceplate, but the literal version of it is hugely massive. They are literally allowing Microsoft to use their own system to help advertise their series. Besides that, it's the only system besides Microsoft's own(Xbox and because they're also in the PC business) to have the Halo Mash-Up Pack as well. Which is Master Chief's sole Nintendo appearance(and being a competing company, that's pretty big too. But even then, this might be part of why Master Chief wouldn't be playable, since they don't want to sell his actual games on anything but PC and Xbox itself. Other older Microsoft-owned games are less issues since they at least were once on Nintendo or weren't entirely about Microsoft to begin with. Part of why Fulgore might not even be ignored, but I doubt his votes are honestly high enough to get him any kind of Smash appearance despite his series playing a rather important role in fighting game history). It's(Minecraft content) a guarantee by every means. Even if somehow Steve doesn't get represented(which he's the most likely character) as playable alone, there's still Mii costumes, which pretty much Master Chief and Banjo & Kazooie are the other two who most likely will get that only since they're highly popular choices and actually very interesting costumes even then. Some of the best Gunner options you can get right now. Though Chief is way easier to design as a costume, it can easily still happen.

Plus, nobody is setting themselves up for disappointment. People see it coming for the same reason they saw characters like Inkling coming. They are just that major of characters(Steve, mind you, is even bigger and has a bigger cultural impact, but still). Also comparable to Isabelle, though she wasn't as much of a lock(but still very likely). Difference is Steve doesn't even have a lot of good criticisms against him like Isabelle did. About the only thing that really makes sense is Microsoft itself, being a 1st party company on their own, doesn't want a character in Smash. Which with Xbox Live literally coming to the Switch, doesn't hold water either. So basically? There hasn't been any good reasons that Steve can't be a playable character. Not that people need to like the idea. I can't even imagine someone more likely either. They're either not as well known(Banjo & Kazooie) or doing awful in Japan(Halo is pretty much doing roughly there, so Master Chief is hardly going to be as notable to one audience). They're awesome characters, but just don't compare to what is the top game among Microsoft right now, which is Minecraft by far. One other valid point people brought up is how to make his building mechanics plausible in Smash and balanced, which is why I didn't mention it as a bad point up earlier. I only mentioned bad points against him.

-Moveset balance
-Want someone else first
-Microsoft still saying no(which while possible, is very unlikely, but them being 1st party in itself still can be enough. It's mostly moot with Xbox Live coming to Switch though).

These 3 are still valid points, so again, why mention them when this is more about bad points to begin with. Only one is purely subjective in itself(Want someone else first), while the other two have more meat to them. So I'm already prepared for inevitable Minecraft content, which is most likely to be playable Steve. Either way, one of the biggest gaming icons(as I said, right up there with Sonic, Pac-Man, and Mario) is a lock if Microsoft alone gets content, playable or otherwise. Though I can't imagine him being nothing more than a Spirit too. He's too huge for that. If somehow he doesn't make it to playable(which there's one reason among the 3 valid points that can happen), a Mii costume(probably Swordfighter or Brawler) still fits well, being he started off as a skin. So a costume isn't even that bad. Though I could see all 3 of the major contenders being just costumes too. They all make sense for that possibility.
 

TheCJBrine

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We could probably debate this forever, but it doesn't matter. I really don't think Steve has what it takes to get into Smash, and in the end, we're eventually going to find out which one of us is right. I don't believe Sakurai is going to include a Minecraft "character" just because he's a fan of Minecraft's game design. Game design and character design are two completely different things. I understand you like this character but you're really not trying to comprehend any of my points. People DO care about these things, if Sakurai didn't care what a character looked like or animated like we'd have an incomprehensible mess of art styles from vastly different games. The truth is that he works hard to ensure no character sticks out in a grotesque manner (he said so himself in an interview that he had to work hard to make every character fit in with each other), which is impossible to do with such low quality source material like Steve. Animating him with "fluid" limbs just makes his design pointlessly problematic to animate in other ways (why even keep him blocky if he can just move his limbs around like jello? Jello limbs just make everything intersect with each other and looks shabby and unprofessional, in addition to being hard to read and untrue to the source material).

And yes, I do know for a fact that the rectangle man currently known as Steve is nothing more than placeholder developer graphics because I was there on the forum that Notch posted development updates on when Minecraft was just starting and was relatively obscure. He said he had obtained a professional artist to do the final graphics for the game that unfortunately never materialized. These were created by an artist who goes by "Dock" and were what Minecraft was supposed to look like. If Steve only could look like this, I'd have no real problem with him. But the way he looks right now is unacceptable for Smash.


I did try to comprehend your points.

I don't think you read mine very well.

Yes, they care about animations. I said they don't usually care about stuff like "is this normal, beloved character an insult to others?" and now that I bring this up again "does he have a lot of Nintendo history?"(Sakurai considers this point a courtesy, plus Nintendo seems to have welcomed the game with open arms + them and Microsoft are getting along excellently, especially with Microsoft's plans for the Switch) Steve, however, can actually work in Smash with his design on the website and using his actual animations (or Dungeons) + some new ones being made, just like what they did for every other character. Steve isn't like Mr. Game & Watch in that regard, despite using him as a comparison to say "he can work too" since no one puts thought into Steve because "lol no keep blockhead away from mai precious smasha brothas." Steve's stiff limbs don't prevent him from having good animations that fit him, as they're not key-poses and the only downside is that he doesn't transition between animations, which they can easily do in Smash especially since Dungeons is likely doing this anyway + Story Mode (though let's keep those animations away from here) - as for "clashing with other characters' art styles" yes because he's surely gonna be worse than anime sword man or realistic explosives man next to Mario/Kirby/Ice Climbers/whoever or heck Mr. Game & Watch even though Steve already has official artwork that could easily let him fit in even better than his usual gritty self.

The only "problem" with Steve is how his moveset would work, which is something people have made-up before. Either give him different items including Minecraft-exclusive ones, somehow make building work, or make it so he collects resources when hitting opponents - resources he can use to make himself stronger/quickly craft something out of. There is a lot of potential for a moveset that, while it might be a bit hard to come up with, I'm sure Sakurai will have no problem with it.

I knew about Dock; I assumed they decided they liked the graphics since they never bothered to change them.

However, they have hired another artist to do the textures, though he's keeping them close to the original designs, just less of a "mess" (save for grass, the Creeper, and the default skin, and I'm not sure why since they want consistency...their main reason for hiring a new artist to do all of the textures...but I like the old textures anyway so meh). They're also not changing the models like they would have with Dock, which I'm personally happy with (probably just 'cause I've played it since Beta but meh, I like Steve's current look too).

If I'm being honest, it seems more like you're making up "facts" as to why Steve can't get in because you hate the idea of him in Smash instead of saying "don't get disappointed Steve fans"(tbh I feel like I've seen you bash Steve before, and it feels like that now since you're presenting opinions as facts: "unacceptable" "there's no way he'd work"). That's fine to hate Steve, I don't care, there's just no reason to exaggerate the difficulty of adding him like this when Sakurai has already done stuff like Duck Hunt and Game & Watch and whatnot. He may not see Steve as a character that can work, whatever, but it's not hard to see how other people can easily see how Steve can work. If you actually are trying to keep Steve fans from being disappointed, then try and be simple about it at least instead of acting like Steve is inconceivable and no one would even think about adding him...

and as for Sakurai, I'm almost sure he likes the game for more than just its basic game design, as he's only spoken positively about it and was surprised to see Stardew Valley overthrow Minecraft for the #1 spot on the Western eShop, making him wonder something like "what's going on?"
 
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Mogisthelioma

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You really can't believe that any DLC besides Corrin and MAYBE Bayo were shill picks, can you?
Bayo was decided pretty early into the ballot (ignoring the fact that the ballot was meant for Ultimate but whatever), and it looks like the only real incentive they had for her was to promote Bayo 2, but I could be very, very wrong.

But anyone who says that Corrin wasn't shilling would be lying to everyone, including themselves.
 

GRUDGE

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Sephiroth can't be a character because his sword is too long.

If they shrunk a full size dragon for the game, I don't think cutting a sword down is unrealistic.
 

Perkilator

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This is old, but we once again have Ornl spreading his infinite wisdom throughout the forums:
No fan favorites/highly requested characters
Chance : 100%

It all starts with a theory about the Adventure Mode : World of Light, proposed by Matpatt.
In Smash Brawl, Master Hand would be Sakurai, handcuffed and controlled by Nintendo, (Tabuu). In Smash U, Galeem would represent Nintendo too. This entity would like to exploit the creativity of its employees : the Master Hands. Dharkon would be the dark side of the fanbase, and the Crazy Hands then would be fans who complain and claim such or such new character, even devastate the game Smash Bros of its content. Sakurai's message would be that he is listening to Nintendo and fans. But if he lets one or the other do that, it will give way to nothingness.

It goes on with Reggie's announcement : "Who never saw it coming forward, new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5 : it's emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC. He wants characters that are unique, different, to bring them into the Smash Bros environment. Ultimate would bring just a whole different level of fun and enjoyment for the player. That's been the approach. That's the thinking".

It ends with a reminder about the existing : Cloud, Ryu, Corrin, Piranha Plant, Joker and Erdrick weren't fan choices (before the first rumors). Bayonetta is the only ballot choice, and in Smash U, King K. Rool and Ridley are already fan wishes. Fans would like to have RPG characters Isaac, Lloyd Irving or Xenoblade rep. ? Nintendo replies by Cloud, Joker and Erdrick. Fans would like to have Mario characters Waluigi and Geno ? Nintendo replies by suprise and fun with Piranha Plant.
 

Chinderblock

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This is old, but we once again have Ornl spreading his infinite wisdom throughout the forums:
...Are you mocking the user? Kind of hard to tell. Cause there's no reason to do so. I mean, they were called out on the issue with it on the thread, after all.
 

GillyGrime

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Any argument about relevancy is as boring as it is flawed. There's nothing wrong with a mixture of popular relevant characters with retro obscure choices. When I played Melee as a kid, I didn't have a clue who Ice Climbers were, or Ness for that matter (as a PAL user, we had to wait a long time for Earthbound). One charm of Smash is introducing and reviving old Nintendo characters, and K Rool proves that with enough fan demand, relevancy is bs.

Character specific, any arguements that Dixie Kong is "just female Diddy" or "needs a partner to work" annoy me. Any DK fan knows how prominent she is in her games, and how she is easily the best playable Kong in each of the main series games. She was also a female protagonist at a time where there were few (and they were usually sexualised), adding to her merits in her own right as a character.

Also anyone who thinks Banjo Kazooie would be a Duck Hunt echo are basically screaming that they've neither touched nor seen a Banjo Kazooie game in their life.
 

Chinderblock

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Any argument about relevancy is as boring as it is flawed. There's nothing wrong with a mixture of popular relevant characters with retro obscure choices. When I played Melee as a kid, I didn't have a clue who Ice Climbers were, or Ness for that matter (as a PAL user, we had to wait a long time for Earthbound). One charm of Smash is introducing and reviving old Nintendo characters, and K Rool proves that with enough fan demand, relevancy is bs.
We do know relevancy is a factor, but anyone saying it's the only way somebody is getting in is being silly. It definitely has shown its face, though. Isaac not being playable may be due to that alone, as his games are no longer relevant.

Character specific, any arguements that Dixie Kong is "just female Diddy" or "needs a partner to work" annoy me. Any DK fan knows how prominent she is in her games, and how she is easily the best playable Kong in each of the main series games. She was also a female protagonist at a time where there were few (and they were usually sexualised), adding to her merits in her own right as a character.
Definitely. Though there's no denying the idea that she might not be in because Sakurai wants her to be a tag team character. She didn't work in Brawl as that, and has yet to be playable. All transformations/tag team characters were gone in 4. This could be why she wasn't in 4. Ultimate had King K. Rool as higher priority with a unique moveset. If she's still intended to be a tag team character, it would explain why she isn't in Ultimate.

There's a very big difference in saying she has to be an echo(though a semi-clone would very much help her get in, and she has a lot of similar enough abilities to be a combination of Diddy and DK and still be faithful. I prefer semi over Echo myself if the options are only those two) or that her being in as a tag team is the most likely way she'll be in and saying "she has to be an echo" or "she has to be a tag team character". In fact, was anybody making that actual argument that these two are necessities? Instead of most likely possibilities? I know my point I've made is these are likely scenarios for her, and her being an Echo is far less likely at this point(my guess is she was going to be faithful in Brawl, thus, she would not be an echo of Diddy as is, due to a completely different playstyle. Semi at most), just not actually impossible.

Also anyone who thinks Banjo Kazooie would be a Duck Hunt echo are basically screaming that they've neither touched nor seen a Banjo Kazooie game in their life.
Ugh. Don't remind me of this terrible argument. People don't know how echoes work, do they? Dixie actually could be a DK or Diddy echo due to the right body shape. Not saying she should, just could. I've made quite a few arguments that Isabelle cannot work as an Echo without an entirely new body(which is a lot of work for an echo) and would be a semi-clone instead. Later on I added she would be using unique abilities that fit her character more, after finding out some of her abilities from Amiibo Festival. The only thing I actually got wrong is I didn't think she's borrow much from Villager, including his tools, as she doesn't generally use them. Pocket, yes, but the tools, no. Still is a satisfying design, but I'd have liked her even more unique.

Honestly, the bodyshape is the most important thing. Now, if the idea that Duck Hunt is being used as a partial base to help design B&K, that's an actual realistic argument. Banjo uses Kazooie for tons of attacks, so it does help. There's some data-based evidence that PP used Bowser Jr's a bit to help create his character, due to being in a vehicle/container of sorts. PP is in a pipe/pot in a similar way. They're only tangibly similar, but that can be enough to help build a moveset. Some other examples are Ike being used to help create Corrin and Cloud. They do have a few similar moves. Likewise, Zero Suit Samus was used to help create Bayonetta. Again, tangible similarities. This looks similar to how Ness was first made, using Mario as a base. You can actually see some similar A moves to a degree. The AAA combo, the down tilt, even the up tilt is somewhat similar. Ness is kind of like Wolf(except more unique), a frankenstein of moves. The best part is Ness' jump is very similar to Mewtwo's, so it makes me wonder if any work was done on the Psychic Pokemon at all, and the jump could've been reused on Ness to finish him off and make him stand out.
 

Mogisthelioma

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This applies to a lot of echo arguments, not just the B&K to Duck Hunt one:

Echo fighters can only be echo fighters of characters from the same series

:ultpeach::ultdaisy:: Both from Mario
:ultpit::ultdarkpit:: Both from KI
:ultmarth::ultlucina:: Both from FE
:ultsimon::ultrichter:: Both from Castlevania
:ultroy::ultchrom:: Both from FE
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:: Both from Metroid
:ultryu::ultken:: Both from Street Fighter

Unless there's some exception in the way this works that Sakurai hasn't mentioned, it doesn't look like an echo fighter can be from a separate series. So no, Banjo and Kazooie wouldn't work as a Duck Hunt echo.
 
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