What is your most hated criticism against your most wanted character?

[Michael the Spikester]

"Nobody likes Porky because he killed Lucas' brother, his mother, made chimeras",

Jesus and I thought Ridley was Nintendo's most sadistic and evil villain (More so then Ganondorf) and to think this guy is just a kid...

 

[Ninten DS]

Jesus and I thought Ridley was Nintendo's most sadistic and evil villain (More so then Ganondorf) and to think this guy is just a kid...

He allied with an alien, released pure nightmare fuel, traveled in time, made his own empire, invaded a whole island: 13 years old.
Porky's the most evil villain of the Nintendo universe you gotta admit it, and that's why I love him so much.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

He allied with an alien, released pure nightmare fuel, traveled in time, made his own empire, invaded a whole island: 13 years old.
Porky's the most evil villain of the Nintendo universe you gotta admit it, and that's why I love him so much.

He definitely takes in the whole cake of Nintendo villain I'll give him that.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Yeah. Porky has done some pretty questionable things.

1. He kidnapped a girl named Paula to use as a sacrifice in a cult

2. He stole a helicopter and crash landed it

3. He activated the true form of Giygas in hopes that Ness and his friends would forever be trapped/eventually killed in eternal darkness

4. He time traveled to different eras and kidnapped people. Then he brainwashed them and turned them into his own army.

5. He commanded his troops to take animals apart and turn them half animal half robot or just combining them into new animals

6. One of his chimeras (a half dinosaur half robot) bit right through Lucas' mom's heart

7. He had Lucas's brother kidnapped and turned into a cyborg. He turned him against Lucas and was the ultimate cause of his death

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Yeah. Porky has done some pretty questionable things.

1. He kidnapped a girl named Paula to use as a sacrifice in a cult

2. He stole a helicopter and crash landed it

3. He activated the true form of Giygas in hopes that Ness and his friends would forever be trapped/eventually killed in eternal darkness

4. He time traveled to different eras and kidnapped people. Then he brainwashed them and turned them into his own army.

5. He commanded his troops to take animals apart and turn them half animal half robot or just combining them into new animals

6. One of his chimeras (a half dinosaur half robot) bit right through Lucas' mom's heart

7. He had Lucas's brother kidnapped and turned into a cyborg. He turned him against Lucas and was the ultimate cause of his death

And because he time traveled so much now he's an old man inside of a spider mech, but still has the mind of a sadistic child.

 

[Ninten DS]

1. He kidnapped a girl named Paula to use as a sacrifice in a cult

I believe this was before Porky turned evil, he was possessed by the Mani Mani Statue, apologized to Ness, but since he didn't respond, Porky broke down and became the bad boi we know today.

 

[RileyXY1]

Here's some criticisms that I hate hearing:

Ninten: He would be better off as a palette swap of Ness!
Doomguy: He's too violent!
Agumon: He's an anime character, he can't be in Smash!
Kat & Ana: They're irrelevant!
Heihachi Mishima: He'll play just like Ryu!
Lloyd Irving: He's just another anime swordsman!
Dillon: He would be a clone of Sonic!

 

[UserKev]

Jesus and I thought Ridley was Nintendo's most sadistic and evil villain (More so then Ganondorf) and to think this guy is just a kid...

I'm opposed to Porky because he's a disturbing villain. There's no limits to what you can do with the character. The possibilities are incredibly endless with this dude, he's disgusting.

At least with Ganondorf and Ridley, they are sane villains. Porky just does ANYTHING.

 

[Ninten DS]

I'm opposed to Porky because he's a disturbing villain. There's no limits to what you can do with the character. The possibilities are incredibly endless with this dude, he's disgusting.

At least with Ganondorf and Ridley, they are sane villains. Porky just does ANYTHING.

Porky is an egocentric child who got the power to do anything he wanted, to the point of wanting to destroy the world before being crushed by boredom, and if the plan failed, he would lock himself in a capsule for eternity. And that's the argument I don't like, he's disturbing, but that just makes Porky the most pure and evil villain of all time, who needs to be represented in Smash for being truly distinct from the rest of the villains.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Yes, amongst the cast of Smash villains, Porky would definitely stand out from the bunch.

 

[UserKev]

Porky is an egocentric child who got the power to do anything he wanted, to the point of wanting to destroy the world before being crushed by boredom, and if the plan failed, he would lock himself in a capsule for eternity. And that's the argument I don't like, he's disturbing, but that just makes Porky the most pure and evil villain of all time, who needs to be represented in Smash for being truly distinct from the rest of the villains.

For me, Ridley perfectly represents the purest evil villain in Smash but I won't knock him off ultimately. Porky DOES have amazing potential for an exciting unique fighter but I don't give a ** about what he has to say or his intentions.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

At least with Ganondorf and Ridley, they are sane villains. Porky just does ANYTHING.

For Ridley I wouldn't call eating people out a means of warfare sane tbh. Compared to Porky though I'd say so however.

 

[TheCJBrine]

When people take your character or content from their series, say their "chances" aren't good, and say that's good for their character.

As if that's even how it works when Sakurai already has characters planned out, so there's no point in talking about chances against characters; this dumb competition shouldn't even exist. Start worrying about this crap when a new ballot comes around, if one does.

 

[Ninten DS]

When people take your character or content from their series, say their "chances" aren't good, and say that's good for their character.

As if that's even how it works when Sakurai already has characters planned out, so there's no point and talking about chances against certain characters; this dumb competition shouldn't even exist. Start worrying about this crap when a new ballot comes around, if one does.

I don't think this is a competition at all, we're just sharing ideas, not like it's the same saying that Sans has more chances than Tingle: we try to discuss why that isn't correct, and everyone shares their opinion, but of course, there isn't an answer, because people think in a different way than everyone. And well yeah people think it's a competition but I think most people just want to share their ideas.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I don't think this is a competition at all, we're just sharing ideas, not like it's the same saying that Sans has more chances than Tingle: we try to discuss why that isn't correct, and everyone shares their opinion, but of course, there isn't an answer, because people think in a different way than everyone. And well yeah people think it's a competition but I think most people just want to share their ideas.

I understand that; just some people seem to try and take away another character's chances to support their own :S

I've mainly noticed this with Steve but I've heard about this with other characters, too, and not just obscure ones.

 

[Ninten DS]

I understand that; just some people seem to try and take away another character's chances to support their own :S

I think that's not exactly like it. Of course there are characters that we want more than others, and this doesn't apply to everybody, but most people support a character in a constructive way, knowing the character's importance, potential, etc... but yeah there's also people who do that. All I can say at this point is that there's a bit of everything on the internet, so you'll see all kind of stuff.

 

[Calamitas]

This one's more general, I feel, and doesn't just apply to my most wanted character, Elma. Namely, everyone reasoning along the lines of:
"Oh, this character can't make it in! Vergeben has never talked about them! According to Vergeben and the box theory, we only have Incineroar and Ken left! If Vergeben doesn't talk about a character, they're 100% not in! No chance!"

. . .Because correct me if I'm wrong, but did that guy ever mention any of the 8.8. Direct characters?

 

[TheCJBrine]

This one's more general, I feel, and doesn't just apply to my most wanted character, Elma. Namely, everyone reasoning along the lines of:
"Oh, this character can't make it in! Vergeben has never talked about them! According to Vergeben and the box theory, we only have Incineroar and Ken left! If Vergeben doesn't talk about a character, they're 100% not in! No chance!"

. . .Because correct me if I'm wrong, but did that guy ever mention any of the 8.8. Direct characters?

He got Simon, but not K. Rool or Richter/the other echoes. Leakers don't know everything, and he mentioned an SE character, so those arguments are invalid

 

[Ninten DS]

This one's more general, I feel, and doesn't just apply to my most wanted character, Elma. Namely, everyone reasoning along the lines of:
"Oh, this character can't make it in! Vergeben has never talked about them! According to Vergeben and the box theory, we only have Incineroar and Ken left! If Vergeben doesn't talk about a character, they're 100% not in! No chance!"

. . .Because correct me if I'm wrong, but did that guy ever mention any of the 8.8. Direct characters?

That argument is just stupid, wait for Vergeben to say Sans is in and everybody believes it. I wouldn't even believe everything Vergeben says.

 

[ChameleonD98]

Terra Branford: "No chance,FF6 isn't popular or relevant enough, Geno is the only reasonable choice there is for a Second Square Enix rep". Very frustrating to hear this pretty much every time I bring up me wanting her to get in.

 

[OreoSmasher777]

"He's Just a goomba with a hat on"

Mario is just a human with some overalls and a hat

 

[Ninten DS]

"He's Just a goomba with a hat on"

Mario is just a human with some overalls and a hat

Green Mario is just a taller and better looking Mario tbh

 

[Seanp12]

It seems to me like many of these listed arguments are actually perfectly legitimate, often followed by "X is actually a very popular choice," when the truth is that X is only moderately popular. And it's not like popularity is the be-all, end-all anyway. Otherwise Ridley would have been in since Brawl.

 

[Q-Long]

"This character is too dead, not relevant, and obscure to be playable. It wouldn't increase sales as much as X character. So they shouldn't be in".

-----------------------

It is single handedly the worst criticism ever because now you're treating Smash Bros as a billboard as opposed to a celebration of Nintendo history.

Isaac is currently my most wanted and it is often thrown at him. I tend to favor characters from more under represented / obscure Nintendo series than more popular 3rd parties or characters from series with a lot of representation because as a kid the most common console war insult thrown at Nintendo was that all it had was Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. This is untrue because Nintendo probably has the most IPs out of any gaming company.

The argument is pretty hypocrtical and not very selfaware. Smash Bros simply would not be the same without characters from "dead" or "unpopular" franchises like Captain Falcon, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Ness, and more. Not only that, but including lesser known characters in Smash immortalizes them or increases the sales of their games, heck it helps them get new games. Look at Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus Uprising. Heck, poor Snake will probably get this argument thrown at him in the next decade or two.

These accusations of relevancy, simply don't hold up in 2018. We are dealing with a new landscape. Due to the power of social media and the evolution of marketing, dead franchises like Shenmue (last game was 2001), Streets of Rage (last game was 1994), Samurai Shodown, Windjammers, Metroid, Soul Calibur, Megaman, and Devil May Cry are given another chance. With the power of Smash, a lot of Nintendo's dead family members can be given another chance.

The relevancy argument is a completely darwinistic way of looking not just at newcomers, but at games and entertainment as well. This argument isn't just an attack on F-Zero or Golden Sun, but an attack on those games I previously mentioned. Ever watch a movie or show that never received a sequel because it didn't make enough money? Man, I remember when Odd Future won a music show and all the people who were mad because they never heard of Odd Future. "W-what how can something not as popular win!?" Ever see your favorite restaurant shutdown while McDonalds still sticks around? Its the same thing.

The worst part of this is that these relevancy arguments aren't coming from CEOs working at Nintendo or whatever. Instead they're coming from this vocal minority in the Smash fanbase that has developed some strange contrarian hate for the lesser known. Mario, Sonic, Pokemon, Zelda, Pac-Man, Animal Crossing, and more already have heavy content in this game. Its a signal its going to sell ALOT already. How is this hard to understand?

Ironically enough, this argument has given me empathy for a lot of contenders: From popular choices like Skull Kid, Geno, Banjo, Rhythm Heaven representation to smaller fanbases like Andy, Ray, and Jill etc. The relevancy argument is thrown around all the time to these people. We should be kind to each other, because these people throw this stuff at all of us. All of us should stick together.

Luckily, with all of these sequels of games that haven't had sequels for DECADES happening, these discount business managers, dollarstore CEOs, knockoff brand salesmen, etc. are going to get BTFO.

In this way, a lesser known or less relevant character getting into Smash isn't just a victory for that character or their series, its a victory for any dead franchise. If someone who isn't "relevant" or "popular" gets into Smash now, like Geno or whoever, its part of this awesome trend, of dead franchises and characters getting a second chance.

 

[Seanp12]

That depends on what you think smash should be. The relevance argument comes from people who want it to be an all star game, which is a legitimate point of view. After all, how many people are there who wish that the development time that went into WFT and ROB had gone into some character with more popularity? Sure, people enjoy their movesets after the fact, but there's always the question of what might have been. Those two have virtually zero relevance outside of smash now, while others from unrepresented or underrepresented series are still waiting on the wings. It's a perfectly legitimate point of view.

On the other hand, if the person is using those arguments for why a character can't be in smash (as opposed to "shouldn't"), then they have no idea what they're talking about. Relevance has diddly squat to do with who's in smash. It's all about what Sakurai wants to do.

 

[Q-Long]

"That depends on what you think smash should be. The relevance argument comes from people who want it to be an all star game, which is a legitimate point of view "

That comes from people who want it to be a game with only popular characters. All Star means outstanding or a member of an all star team.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/all-star

Captain Falcon is an all star because he is a member of the all star team that is Nintendo and gaming history.

Sakurai is also an all star to Nintendo. The man who spent development time in Brawl towards a list of every single Nintendo game published ever (even Hamtaro) and spent development time crafting unique models in Melee for obscure Famicom characters.

It comes down to a matter of opinion like you said.

Well, my opinion is that Sakurai's vision is great and I'm glad he has protected Smash from the same people who shut down the passionate official Nintendo forums back in the late 2000s.

 

[Peridorito]

Paper Mario: "we don't need another Mario"
Terra: "Final Fantasy shouldn't have more than 1 character"

 

[Seanp12]

"That depends on what you think smash should be. The relevance argument comes from people who want it to be an all star game, which is a legitimate point of view "

That comes from people who want it to be a game with only popular characters. All Star means outstanding or a member of an all star team.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/all-star

Captain Falcon is an all star because he is a member of the all star team that is Nintendo and gaming history.

Sakurai is also an all star to Nintendo. The man who spent development time in Brawl towards a list of every single Nintendo game published ever (even Hamtaro) and spent development time crafting unique models in Melee for obscure Famicom characters.

It comes down to a matter of opinion like you said.

Well, my opinion is that Sakurai's vision is great and I'm glad he has protected Smash from the same people who shut down the passionate official Nintendo forums back in the late 2000s.

The Cap Falcon example isn't the best, given that he was relevant back when he was added.

 

[NukeA6]

Terra: "Final Fantasy shouldn't have more than 1 character"

But it's perfectly fine to have a fourth DK character and one more Street Fighter? Yeah, put this as my next most hated criticism because this is dumber than the "Ridley is too big" argument.

 

[Q-Long]

The Cap Falcon example isn't the best, given that he was relevant back when he was added.

Yes, but he's not relevant any longer. So many of these characters are no longer popular. That was my point. Guess we misunderstood each other. Contextually, most of the characters Sakurai introduced were relevant at the time of their inclusion like you said, but this attitude is the type of attitude that brings lesser known characters to the chopping board first. And that sucks.

If we are looking at relevancy at the time of their inclusion then the characters that would be missing in the Corporate Timeline would be: Ice Climbers, ROB, Pit, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, King K Rool, Simon Belmont, and Richter Belmont. Honestly, gameplay wise I don't really care for some of these characters.

Ice Climbers - I care about these two deeply because I want Sakurai or someone to revive them, out of all retro Nintendo IPs, I think it has the most potential. Parka wearing hikers that fight polar bears in large mountains, gives the setting huge potential.

ROB - Honestly, I sometimes play him, but I wouldn't be -that- upset he's gone. But he is a part of Nintendo history. Would be sad to see him go.

Pit - He got a new game and it was amazing. Without his inclusion we would have never gotten his game. His design is based off his Brawl one. His Dark Pit alt originated in Brawl. Honestly, Palutena and Dark Pit would have never have been in Smash 4 without his appearance in Brawl. The power of second chances, the power of introducing a new generation to the old.

Duck Hunt - Don't really care for him too much. Not as much as ROB. So admittedly, I wouldn't miss him much. He is pretty important though.

Little Mac - I like the character, I love boxing characters in fighting games. This would be a tough one to let go of for me. Though unlike the Ice Climbers I don't see Punch-Out getting a make over anytime soon.

King K Rool - Ahh... Smash's Ultimate labor of love. Unlike Ridley, who had more recent mainline appearances, King K Rool's last recent appearance was as a guest character in Mario Sluggers in 2016. His last mainline appearance was in 2007. Yes, I would hate to see Sakurai not including this guy.

Simon and Richter - Castlevania's last traditional game was in 2008 and its latest game, Castlevania Lords of Shadow, was in 2013. What made Lords of Shadow unique was that it completely cut itself off from the timeline of Simon and Richter, they existed in two separate canons. Instead they gave us Gabriel Belmont, a Belmont with every single generic triple A trope you could think of. I'm glad Sakurai chose Simon (Last Lead Role: 1993) and Richter (Last Lead Role: 2007 Remake) over this guy. Simon and Richter have a lot of history and while his game was decent, Gabriel was as stale as bread.

As a side note, I did opted to not include Marth. Though at the time of SSBM's release, his least appearance was 1994, Roy was the fresh kid on the block. In this corporate timeline I actually don't think Marth would have been cut due to the introduction of clones. Marth, would instead be a clone of Roy. Of course one could argue that Fire Emblem, which was not known in a significant portion of the world, would not have been included, instead we would have had more Mario or Pokemon.

Don't care for these characters? Fine. But I'm glad Sakurai does.

 

[Deleted member]

Simon and Richter - Castlevania's last traditional game was in 2008 and its latest game, Castlevania Lords of Shadow, was in 2013. What made Lords of Shadow unique was that it completely cut itself off from the timeline of Simon and Richter, they existed in two separate canons. Instead they gave us Gabriel Belmont, a Belmont with every single generic triple A trope you could think of. I'm glad Sakurai chose Simon (Last Lead Role: 1993) and Richter (Last Lead Role: 2007 Remake) over this guy. Simon and Richter have a lot of history and while his game was decent, Gabriel was as stale as bread.

Correction: Lords of Shadow came out in 2010. The last Castlevania game prior to Smash Ultimate's roster being finalized was Lords of Shadow 2 in 2014. The 2013 release you might be thinking of was either the PC port of LoS1 or Mirror of Fate starring reimagined versions of Simon, Trevor, and Alucard in the LoS universe.

 

[Sonsa]

Hate is a strong word and all, it's just kinda weird that I saw the uhh "Phoenix Wright is just a lawyer so he can't fight" criticism again the other day? Like really, this still? Wii Fit Trainer, even Isabelle, and this is still a concern...? I think Wright has plenty of potential and even if he didn't, they've proven over and over that it really doesn't matter lol

 

[Luigifan18]

Correction: Lords of Shadow came out in 2010. The last Castlevania game prior to Smash Ultimate's roster being finalized was Lords of Shadow 2 in 2014. The 2013 release you might be thinking of was either the PC port of LoS1 or Mirror of Fate starring reimagined versions of Simon, Trevor, and Alucard in the LoS universe.

And it turns out that

Spoiler

Trevor and Alucard are the same person in that continuity.

How silly.

Hate is a strong word and all, it's just kinda weird that I saw the uhh "Phoenix Wright is just a lawyer so he can't fight" criticism again the other day? Like really, this still? Wii Fit Trainer, even Isabelle, and this is still a concern...? I think Wright has plenty of potential and even if he didn't, they've proven over and over that it really doesn't matter lol

He's already been playable in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, so "can't fight" is just completely untrue.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

In addition to the whole relevancy argument being quite possibly the most frustrating and dumb situation to argue against, I think there are a couple of big arguments that usually end up coming with that there are as bad:

1. Sakurai Shouldn't Listen to the Fans
The amount of hatred for fan favorites honestly baffles me. Especially at this point in Smash. Maybe in the days of Brawl when the line-up was significantly smaller and yes there was a much larger line-up of characters that probably actively should have had priority. These days, when we have a roster of 68 unique fighters and 6 echo fighters, I think you're going to have to search much harder to find a truly "missing" all-star. The characters left are less the greats that everyone knows (with a few exceptions) and more the other parts of Nintendo's history and series. So many fans have flocked to characters now that they have a chance with so many of the bigger characters in, and any fan base that relates to Nintendo history deserves a shot. The fan requests aren't bad right now even if you're tired of hearing about them. They'd all end up with pretty unique move sets if given the chance, and if a fan request gets in, you don't have to hear from support groups anymore. It's a win-win other than for your pride, and making fans happy with characters that they have poured love and support into over the years makes sense.

There's also this sort of sentiment that requested characters are only meme picks... and I just don't understand where idiotic people are getting that from. The memes spawned out of supported characters not getting in, not character support out of memes.

2. Third Party Characters are the Only Ones with Any Weight/Are All we Have Left to Include
This isn't necessarily a false argument that I see brought up, but a misguided one at best. I've seen this with Steve a lot recently, as he will "sell tons of copies." That completely negates the massive sales of Smash past, games that have sold into the 13 million mark without third party fighters and with them. Third party fighters generate hype, but they don't sell Smash. Smash sells Smash, as I think we've seen with the incredible response to Ultimate. Beyond that, third party characters have never been the focus of Smash, yet people seem to insist that is the only logical direction we can go. That we only have B and C tier characters, and that does nothing for the general public. I think we've seen that as actually pretty false given the fact that our Smash hype has become pretty mainstream. People like third parties, but they aren't the focus and certainly aren't the only characters left for Smash.

 

[NotTabuu]

/v/ should stop saying Geno is too obscure and old. If he is so obscure then why do people want him? Being in Smash means you are important to your franchise of origin and to gaming itself too. Yes, that also counts for and since they helped in the resurrection of Fire Emblem.

There are also stupid Shadow haters that say that his game defines him. He used guns TWICE, in that game and in a frickin' Lego spinoff (which I miss a lot btw). He can use Chaos Control, Blast and Spear without no problem. I personally think that as a Final Smash he can mixup his Super Form with whatever he had as an Assist Trophy.

"He can only throw bombs. He doesn't do anything else. He would be better as an Assist Trophy."
I seriously hope that when Smash 6 comes out literally half of the Assist Trophies become playable. Or at least Bomb Boi. His PSP game was my second non-licensed videogame ever, first was Rivals 1, which is why I am supporting Shadow too.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

/v/ should stop saying Geno is too obscure and old. If he is so obscure then why do people want him? Being in Smash means you are important to your franchise of origin and to gaming itself too. Yes, that also counts for and since they helped in the resurrection of Fire Emblem.

There are also stupid Shadow haters that say that his game defines him. He used guns TWICE, in that game and in a frickin' Lego spinoff (which I miss a lot btw). He can use Chaos Control, Blast and Spear without no problem. I personally think that as a Final Smash he can mixup his Super Form with whatever he had as an Assist Trophy.

"He can only throw bombs. He doesn't do anything else. He would be better as an Assist Trophy."
I seriously hope that when Smash 6 comes out literally half of the Assist Trophies become playable. Or at least Bomb Boi. His PSP game was my second non-licensed videogame ever, first was Rivals 1, which is why I am supporting Shadow too.

Well this is accurate, i think people jump on which characters should be in a Smash game too quickly but real problem is movesets, i don't think Sakurai can think of any good movesets for Bomberman and perhaps why he wasn't playable in base

 

[Luigifan18]

Well this is accurate, i think people jump on which characters should be in a Smash game too quickly but real problem is movesets, i don't think Sakurai can think of any good movesets for Bomberman and perhaps why he wasn't playable in base

Again, he could have looked at what I came up with...

 

[NotTabuu]

Again, he could have looked at what I came up with...

What did you come up with?

 

[Luigifan18]

What did you come up with?

My bad, I should have provided a hyperlink.

 

[Spatman]

Diddy in drag