What is the best counter in the game?

[Nexus Bond]

First off, let me say in advance that I'm not sure whether or not this belongs here, so, if it doesn't, then please move it.
With that taken care of, I'd like to ask my question, mostly out of curiosity: Who has, and what is, the best counter move in the game, and why?
Choices:
1. Wolf's Reflector (The Dojo said it could be used as a counter)
2. Ike's Counter
3. Marth's Counter
4. Lucario's double team
5. Peach's toad
6. Snake's grenades? I'm not so sure if this counts as a counter.
7. Attack's OOS (ex: Bowser's fortress) I'm also not sure on these.
So please post your opinion, preferably with a few reasons supporting it.

 

[LocoCoco]

lucario. catches u offguard when it connects and does decent damage. overall, a nice move

 

[|RK|]

Nope. Marth's Counter, prolly, since G&W's Bucket ain't listed.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

I'd say a toss-up between Marth's counter and Wolf's reflector. That is assuming though, that my thinking that Wolf's reflector has 8 startup and full invincibility until the first hit frame is correct.

If I'm wrong, then I'd just go with Marth.

Snake's nades are nice too, if they truly count. Safe on usage, which is a rare attribute to counter-type moves, large radial hitbox, creates a projectile; only thing that seems to be a disadvantage is self-damage if you don't have your shield up.

 

[brinboy789]

peaches toad. i think its underrated. it can KILL at higher percentages, does decent damage, and gives her a small boost

 

[The Sauce Boss]

attacks oos are much more practical than most of the special (b) moves.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Bowser's fortress, with Marth's dolphin slash coming in a close second. They have the invincability frames to function as a counter (invincible frames 1-5), function against grabs unlike the others (except wolf's and Snake's), and basically require the character to be in hitstun 100% of the time, or you get countered by the move.

Honorable mentions: Snake's Grenades are amazing too, I'm not sure about Wolf's reflector because I'm not sure when the invincibility frames start, but unfortunately it's not OOS, which limits it's usefulness.

Not quite so honorable mentions:

Bullet seed fits here too (invincibility frames from 1-3, hit on 4), but unfortunately it can be DI'd out, and of the initial hit, not just the later hits. So does Nayru's Love, but it's invincibility frames come too late (frame 5) to be that useful.


Am I missing anything, don't think so.

 

[Toby.]

Wolf's Reflector has invincibility 1-6 and hits on 7, according to their frame data.

Just clearing that up.

 

[Fatmanonice]

For projectiles: Falco's reflector
For physical attacks: probably Peach's Toad
Out of shield: probably Bowser's Whirling Fortress
Breaking up chain grabs: a close tie between Samus's screw attack and Marth's dolphin slash
Out of spot dodge: Metaknight's Dsmash

Oh right, reasons why:

1. Falco's reflector is just a safe option in my opinion. It protects you if they are trying to advance with projectiles like against Mario's fireball's or Diddy's bananas and reflects the projectiles fairly close to them.

2. Unlike Lucario, Marth, and Ike's counter attack, it doesn't leave you wide open as long if it wiffs and the duration lasts as long as the attack is out instead of the opening frames like with Lucario and Ike.

3. Bowser's whirling fortress keeps you on the ground and allows you to somewhat get away if your opponent foresees it.

4. Both attacks are very quick and close to your opponent. It's made even more effective if there are platforms like on Battlefield.

5. Very quick and doesn't allow your opponent too much time to counter since it pushes him away if they shield and can be done quickly enough in succession to counter spot dodging.

 

[.AC.]

i think d3 is the best counter

 

[Fire!]

Out of spot dodge: Metaknight's Dsmash

I was thinking more about ROBs Down Smash out of a spot dodge, but that really depends if you can DI out of the attack.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

I'll say Counter for its sweet Up+B gimps.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i think d3 is the best counter

I came to this thread just to say this.

 

[Crow!]

Wolf's reflector is a great counter attack. It is a counter attack in that it makes you invincible until after it has already hit your opponent, which (excepting super armor) stops your opponent from hitting you and scores a hit. It also has less punishable lag than true counter attacks and it isn't nearly as vulnerable to grabs (shield grabbing is still a concern, of course). The best thing is that unlike counters, which set you up to be charged smashed if your opponent just sits there, the reflector does not allow the "wait it out" option, putting out a hitbox regardless of whether your opponent tries to attack you.

Ironically, while better than counter attacks in most ways, Wolf's reflector actually loses to any counter attack since it is, in fact, an attack.

Snake's shielded grenades are totally counter attacks. For the duration that he has a grenade at his feet, attacking Snake causes you to take damage. Like a counter attack, Snake sitting there and shielding is vulnerable to grabs. The only difference is that Snake gets to also use all his OoS options out of his counter attack.

 

[GwJ]

ROB's is faster too, and even if you DI, you need to be frame precise with your reaction or you'll eat another Dsmash.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Snake's shielded grenades are totally counter attacks. For the duration that he has a grenade at his feet, attacking Snake causes you to take damage. Like a counter attack, Snake sitting there and shielding is vulnerable to grabs. The only difference is that Snake gets to also use all his OoS options out of his counter attack.

Another difference is that you can take care of it with a disjointed hitbox, whereas a "true" counter might make you pay anyways, given the length of Marth and Ike's own disjointed swords.

 

[bobson]

Lucario's Double Team is one of the worst counters. In a lot of cases you can actually shield it on reaction because you don't take any hitlag and the sound it makes when it goes off is so distinct, and if he uses it in the wrong direction near the ledge he gets sent right off the stage. Counters like Marth's and Ike's can be used to intercept predictable recoveries, too; if you try that with Lucario you'll either get sent far away from the stage to be edgehogged with ease when you come back or under the stage, and you can imagine how good a position that is to be in (not to mention that you won't actually hit them, since they'll be out of range).

OoS "counters" are by far the most useful because you initiate them while the opponent's attacking, thus guaranteeing a hit, while all the others rely on prediction (or the opponent using an incredibly slow and obvious attack) and have the potential to backfire on you. Snake's grenades get an honorable mention for not leaving him vulnerable if the opponent doesn't fall for it.

 

[Xebenkeck]

If your talking out of spot dodge Zelda dsmash has that made, Mk is also good but what isn't about Mk, so lets talk about other characters.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Out of spot dodge ROBs dsmash is best. In my opinion the best counter overall is A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE. Hit
'em first and fast, and they won't be hitting you.

 

[uhmuzing]

I say marth's, just cuz its Marth's.

 

[Alus]

Nope. Marth's Counter, prolly, since G&W's Bucket ain't listed.

This 100%... I think that wolfs reflector comes right afterwards...then peach's toad, then ikes counter, then snakes grenades (lol wtf?) Then double team... And I dont think that OoS should even be listed...Makes everything complicated...

I think that marth's dolphin slash beats Samus in the chaingrab fight.

Wolf gets a few frames of invincibility when he is using his reflector. and Projectiles GET REFLECTED!!! (oh pwn!)

Double team sucks (for anyone who didnt know) because of its insane startup and stuff times...plus it can be shielded...

lol @ out of shield R.O.B too good XD.

 

[Vect0r]

Ike, but that's a personal preference. I love the sound he makes when he counters.

GROB'EM!

Seriously though, Marth(a)

 

[Alus]

Ike, but that's a personal preference. I love the sound he makes when he counters.

GROB'EM!

Seriously though, Marth(a)

LOL i dont know if he is saying "Griff on" or "door(your?) open" really fast or if he is saying "Moron" really weird...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ike, but that's a personal preference. I love the sound he makes when he counters.

GROB'EM!

Seriously though, Marth(a)

Oddly enough, he's actually saying "You're open" when he does that. I guess they wanted him to say it fast because of how fast the counter strike is but, in the end, it just sounds kind of weird.

 

[Wild ARMs]

I like Marth's counter the most. However, when it comes to most fun way to counter, I'll go with Snake's grenades WITHOUT the shield. Heheh, lotsa' fun to do.

 

[TK Wolf]

lucario. catches u offguard when it connects and does decent damage. overall, a nice move

Luc's counter is utter trash. Pretty much every high-placing Luca player agrees it should never be used except for some EXTREMELY uncommon scenarios, and even then there is usually a better option.

Slow startup.
Big lag between the trigger and attack, usually plenty to be shielded or PS and then be completely open to a counterattack.
Only works on slow predictable moves, and in that case you're better off hitting with something else.

 

[Tommy_G]

Marth/MK Up B OOS.

 

[ph00tbag]

SDI -> Rest.

Maybe not the best, but if you do it, you're pretty much a man.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth/MK Up B OOS.

Mk's doesn't have invincibility frames so it lacks the ability to go through attacks.

 

[Cook Kirby]

In terms of visual effects, Lucario's double team.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In terms of visual effects, Lucario's double team.

You just won the thread, congrats.

Never considered that the thread didn't specify what it meant by "better"

 

[hichez50]

You just won the thread, congrats.

Never considered that the thread didn't specify what it meant by "better"

So true.

Although if use lucarios counter and get hit you don't really see lucario. Marth is best competitively.

 

[bobson]

Mk's doesn't have invincibility frames so it lacks the ability to go through attacks.

Grounded shuttle loop does have invincibility frames, although I believe they're at frames 5-8, so that doesn't much help with going through attacks.

 

[MRTW113]

Marth's is very good, but in competitive play a miss ruins your flow and you get grabbed.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Attacks out of shield

 

[EdreesesPieces]

THIS THREAD IS FAIL. Pit's two counters are among if not easily the best. Hay-ya-ya-ya-ya is much much less punishable than the other counters here even if you miss. NICE TRY is pretty good too, because it works like Mario's cape.

 

[Commander_Beef]

i think d3 is the best counter

Lol you're clever.

Bowser's so called "fortress" (or his UpB while on ground) is not a real counter, neither is Snake's grenades if we are talking about real counter attacks, like the reflectors, Lucario's double team, Marth/Ike's counters.
Falco's down B is the best counter because of it's annoying range and reflects projectiles at almost every frame of the attack... and it pwns on Jungle Japes after a jab... or after a jab in general. For a reflecting attack, the knockback is too good too...

 

[Kewkky]

Pit's "Nice try!" is hacked. Invincibility AND reflects EVERYTHING at startup, and reflects projectiles afterwards... It's another gimping weapon of super cool man mountain of AWESOMENESS potential (if you've learned the attack like the back of your hand)!

 

[toon_marth]

Ike's Counter over> Marth's?! Whaaa..

 

[uhmuzing]

Marth's activates pretty fast.