Weekly Character Discussion: Zelda

[BigRick]

In the hint, I basically suggested that becoming Shiek is a viable strategy for Zelda to fix some of her shortcomings... but in retrospective I think I should've saved that for Shiek. Zelda does fine as a standalone character, and while turning to Shiek is a viable strategy, its not really necessary per se. Whereas for Shiek, it seems nearly necessary in order to actually get a KO.

I agree... and it totally threw me off.

Btw, a Zelda totally ***** me in teams during a tournament in the past weekend.

 

[Percon]

Yeah, a Zelda player did pretty darn well at aforementioned tournament.

The clue threw me off as well.

Anyway, Zelda has enough strong points to be viable. She doesn't have any impossible matchups, but she does have some pretty bad ones.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i would like to address the hint that said she will most likely be doomed to mid tier and say i could see a low high tier as well for her.

Also as a zelda i want to say even through there are some tough fights there are no fight that i get in and feel that as zelda i don't have a real chance of winning so yes G&W is trouble but i don't feel he is unbeatable if the zelda plays smart.

lastly for zelda vs snake depending who you ask they ether think its even or snake has the advantage. I think it is even i fought a snake i know (but had not played much) 8 times in a row we are about equal in skill and we both won 4 of the 8, it went i won then he won then i won etc. Like someone pointed out earlier snake is bad in the air so zelda has him there and zelda's f-smash outranges snakes tilts (not by much but its something) plus if the zelda makes sure to capitalize on snake's recovery by at min hitting him with a din's when they can it helps alot and of course going for a lightning kick or spike can also work depnding on were the snake is. Anyway this fight has a lot more that goes into it and i don't feel/have the time yo get into detail right now but i feel it is an even fight.

 

[Mega-Japan]

Sheik and Zelda should definitely be portrayed away from each other, this discussion has been on since the Melee days where if you go to see a Sheik player playing in a tournament, they will not be using Zelda at all except maybe for recovery since the transforming time only took half a second compared to the 3 seconds in Brawl.

Zelda is indeed underused, finding another Zelda mainer isn't any easier than finding a Yoshi mainer or even an Ice Climbers mainer. In fact, in the NYC weeklies I go to ran by Bum, I have yet to see another Zelda mainer while I have already encountered a Yoshi mainer, Ice Climbers and heck I even found a Jigglypuff...

I really can't tell what's wrong. Perhaps players are so sexist that they refuse to play as a fairy princess? This explains why we found a lot of Samus players in Melee (they though she was guy... lol).

j/k of course, but seriously. While I don't really mind whether she is underused or not, I'm still proud of maining her. In fact, I'm glad Zelda isn't on the 'overused' characters list where Snake, Metaknight and Dedede are found.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Do you think we should do Sheik / Zelda separate or together? I am thinking separate, but I will change the name if you guys think we should do them together.

Either way, Zelda is one of those characters like Toon Link that seems amazing but no one uses her. Her moves are so ridiculously strong and you CANNOT approve her from above. Maybe it's her weird recovery?

I personally dual main them... it makes her a heluva difficult character to counterpick... I feel that anyone who DOESN'T dual main Zelda/Shiek is playing less than a full charcter.


@Mega... shiek had every advantage on zelda in melee besides recovery... and so shiek mains WOULD occasionally transorf to recover... but transformation is MUCH more useful in brawl. Dual maining is actually viable

 

[goodkid]

Zelda has tons of potential. Zelda is more about playing smart, than aggressively to win. She does lack approach but din's is all you need to get them to approach. The harder match-ups for Zelda are projectile chars. & small(Squirtle) chars.

 

[Luthien]

Zelda's recovery also limits her survivability. While there is a small hitbox when she lands, the inability to recover at odd angles makes her easy to edgeguard if she is put in a bad position.

Er, the landing lag is an issue, but odd angles are not a problem. Zelda can recover from almost any angle. She doesn't have the greatest recovery, sure, but she can teleport 16 general directions, and if you want to go way into it, somewhere around 40 specific directions. This actually leaves a lot of choices for recovery.

I know that I'll forever be biased in the subject of Zelda's recovery, but I really don't think it's as bad as all that.

 

[Adapt]

Recovery:
The worst thing about Zelda's recovery is not the weird angles imo, it's that once she uses her up-B she is completely a dead weight. she can't even drift back and forth for a while after. She just drops...
Another problem I have is that you have to aim it precisely, if you are off by a very small amount you die. Slightly too far away from the stage and you will either eat an aerial or miss the ledge cuz you can't move. Slightly too close and you will hit a lip and stop dead (not slide up like many other recoveries)

Both of these drawbacks are avoidable by practice, but it just weakens her recovery overall.

Aerial game:
Much of the time against smaller characters (smaller than mario) I don't even bother going for the lightning kicks because of how hard they are to land. I just use nair more often. It seems to have good priority and does an ok amount of damage. It is so very satisfying to land a fair or bair though

Misc:
I was surprised that there was no mention of spot-dodge>dsmash. Zelda's seems to be almost as good as ROBs for punishing attacks (especially dash attacks). Her dsmash is super-quick and the trajectory that foes are sent away at is amazing. Dsmash imo is her best move
Also, that transformation part of the hint really threw me off... it would have been better included as part of Sheik's hint (as was already mentioned). It seems that StZ is stronger than either by themselves. But I haven't heard of anyone using ZtS

 

[rageagainst]

Recovery:
Aerial game:
Much of the time against smaller characters (smaller than mario) I don't even bother going for the lightning kicks because of how hard they are to land. I just use nair more often. It seems to have good priority and does an ok amount of damage. It is so very satisfying to land a fair or bair though

Misc: It seems that StZ is stronger than either by themselves. But I haven't heard of anyone using ZtS

Sad to see how no one guessed it was Zelda until I clearly spelt it out. And yes, the Sheik/Zelda thing should be left for shiek, Sheik needs Zelda far more than Zelda needs Sheik.

about her arial game, thats what makes zelda so deadly at the higher levels of play and ONLY at the higher levels of play. Once someone knows the perfect time to do lightning kick (easier to do when punishing, but if someone gets good enough who knows what kind of situations it can be used in ) and can nail them perfectly, you can expect a bunch of KOs in that match while the opponent is still in his mid % (lightning kick kills mario in the MIDDLE of FS at 67%).

The summary is right, all her moves require precise spacing, but when someone gets to be so advanced that they can space in their sleep, zelda is a perfect character for them. (note to Overswarms post, Utilt comes out fast enough and kills at pretty good %s and Usmash is still good to spam because it is not escapable 100% of the time)

Zelda's moves become eerily predictable after a while, because each move basically has only a few specific situations they should be used in. A vet Zelda player has to focus on mixing it up and being unpredictable.

I think Sheik/Zelda should have their own section. When you get to choose between sheik and zelda, they barely have any bad matchups. The few bad matchups that Zelda has (G&W, Space Animals, Ness+Lucas) become ATLEAST neutral when you switch to sheik.

And to most other characters that don't have hard counters in either Sheik or Zelda (DK, and Bowser for example are greatly in Zelda's favor), Sheik/Zelda is better than either Zelda or Sheik alone (there was a thread about which characters should be StZ and which should be standalone in the Zelda section), and if people actually get good at Sheik/Zelda, I could very well expect to see her/them in high tier. (I could see Zelda in (low)high tier as well if enough people actually care to play her). I'm trying to play my Zelda like this, but the trick is knowing when to transform and doing it safely, I usually try to knock them off with sheik somehow(usually dsmash) run to the opposite end of the stage and switch. I know there are much better ways to do it, and ryoko said that "its not that hard if you do it without bieng ********" so I have a lot of hope in Sheik/Zelda.

 

[popsofctown]

And yes, the Sheik/Zelda thing should be left for shiek, Sheik needs Zelda far more than Zelda needs Sheik.

Oftentimes this is a misconception that arises due to perception.
In brawl, there is no expected rate of racking. No one comments on games by saying: you aren't racking at the expected rate of racking.
But there's an expected % for killing. People say, hey, what the crap, you're opponent is alive at 180%.

This makes many people say Zelda needs Sheik less than Sheik needs Zelda, but that's often, i would say usually, a perception issue and not true analysis on whether Zelda can rack better or Sheik can kill better. People watch a Zelda game that was lost, but could've been won with better racking and say nothing. Then they watch a full Sheik game where the opponent lived to the 170s and say "he needed to use Zelda, he needed kill moves".

I feel it is unfair to say that either character is more dependent than the other. I think they should both be considered the same character. Many people use them as such.

 

[S2]

As a regular Socal tourney goer who mains Zelda, I'll give my 2 cents on what holds Zelda back from top tier.

Warning, this post is going to be long.

As it stands, most "tier estimates" or character rankings are still putting Zelda too low. She's not going to ever be a top tier character in Brawl, but she's certainly higher than many players give her credit for. For all her advantages, she's not very popular and unlike other characters who have slipped of the radar a bit (Toon Link, etc), she never had that initial popularity or hype at the start of Brawl's lifecycle to get people to notice just how good she is.

Since many people have already gone over her advantages, I'll talk about what keeps her from being the next Snake or Meta.

With Zelda, all of her advantages and disadvantages are extremely distinct.

To her advantage is an excellent ground game due to high priority moves that have hitboxes off of her body. She's also got a decent projectile that's good for keeping pressure on, tech chasing, trading hits, etc. Plus her air-game, when sweetspotted (or below an opponent) is very powerful.

Her disadvantages are equally as apparent. She's weak whenever above anyone, the only exception being if she's going for a situational spike. Her air game has to be sweetspotted, meaning any character with a decent aerial game is going to win in the air most of the time as Zelda needs to get real close to a character to sweetspot them. Her recovery is also an issue. While trajectory is not a problem with mastery, the lack of control once Farore's has been initiated can often lead you open. If an opponent is good at edgehogging in Brawl, Zelda is in trouble. As she can still get edgehogged with correct timing and if she lands on the stage she's often left open. Not to mention that her speed and aerial game hurts her ability to approach well.


On to my main point,

What holds Zelda back is the fact that her slow speed and floatiness make it extremely hard to make up for her disadvantages. A fast character can use their speed for mindgames, but Zelda's movement is slow and many of her attacks commit her to a move for a long period of time (let me clarify, it's not that I'm saying her moves are laggy, but that their duration is long because Zelda holds the attack out for multiple hits).


This leads to troublesome matchups against opponents who can either
1.) Ruin her projectile game either by outcamp her or having a reflector/bucket/absorbtion, thus forcing her to make the approach.
2.) Who can bypass her high priority hitboxes.

I'll use a couple of examples

G&W for instances has attacks that qualify for both. His bucket makes it so that using Din's to force the approach isn't a viable option (although Din's can be used situationally). He can also bypass Zelda's highpriority/offbody hitboxes. His d-air goes straight through Zelda's upsmash and his b-air can puncture Zelda's f-smash from the right aerial angle (I need to double check on G&W's b-air, but I'm pretty sure).

So in that matchup, G&W has killed Zelda's ability to force him to approach, she already has a weak approach, and he has move options that let him bypass Zelda's defense game.


The lack of Din's isn't the worst issue, but other character's ability to bypass Zelda's hitboxes. I'm not saying that Zelda is a 1-trick-pony, but that she relies heavily on her advantages (priority and range) because her speed/floatiness/approach game makes it very difficult for her to compensate for her distinct disadvantages.

Another example is Snake (this is an even matchup, unlike G&W). You can force the approach with Din's, but the problem lies in your hitboxes. If Snake spaces himself correctly, he can bypass the first half of Zelda's f-smash with his running-A. This works because his odd hitbox can penetrate the weak hits of Zelda's f-smash and stop her attack (keep in mind Snake has to do this in the first parts of Zelda's attack).

Problems for Zelda with hitboxes and range dependency comes from two types of opponent attacks

1.) Certain Fast attacks, which penetrate Zelda's f-smash (her longest range attack). Mostly running-As.

This works because they can stop Zelda's smashes by "passing through" (they still take damage) her hitbox and hitting Zelda to force the smash to end. This is what I was describing with Snake. With a move like Zelda's f-smash (this is true of her upsmash as well) only the final hit does knockback.

This means that not only can opponent DI out of her multihit smashes (this is harder done than said), but quick moves can pass through the multiple hits.

Now with the up-smash there are very few moves that can do this (actually I can't think of any). That is bypass due to speed along (possibly TL or G&W's d-air, but that's debatable, this could be a mix of speed and their hotbox).With the f-smash what happens is a character still takes the damage from the non-knockback hits of the f-smash, but still penetrates through and hits Zelda. Granted there are only a handful of characters that can do this. Metaknight for example can with his running A. He can run up and dash attack to stop your f-smash.

Keep in mind though that most dash attacks that can do this, can't from the very tip of Zelda's hitbox. Meaning if Zelda is already doing the move they can't bypass the whole thing. They'll eat an f-smash. But from certain ranges they can stop Zelda's f-smash, even though they should be getting hit (well they are getting hit by their attack penetrates and stops the smash as they get hit).


2.) Characters who have hitboxes that come off their bodies screw Zelda's priority and range.

To clarify, "off the body" refers to something that is not the opponent's body, like a weapon. Something that can do damage, but it's vulnerable. G&W's turtle (I believe his key works the same), any swords, etc.

The problem with these attacks and the characters who have them is simple, since the hitbox isn't the opponent it can pass through and stop Zelda's smashes during the multihit part.


My conclusion brings me back to my main point, when Zelda is against characters who gimp her advantages, she has an extremely hard time making up for them. Her offensive game is somewhat weak, so moves/characters that gimp any part of her defensive game can easily end up being her downfall.


On a different note... I know this is a Zelda discussion, but it should be said that Sheik does fill in for some of Zelda's disadvantages. As said before, it's a common perception that Sheik's need Zelda to kill, but that many Zelda players don't feel Sheik is necessary. I'd disagree.

Ignoring the tactical advantages of using Sheik instead in a matchup that's bad for Zelda, the fact that knockback can be refreshed by swapping back and forth is ultra valuable. Zelda has a ton of kill moves, but oftentimes you have to decay them in order to get damage, making it hard to kill characters who aren't light. Refreshing your knockback does wonders, as basically any of Zelda's moves will KO any opponent at 120% if you hit an opponent away from the center of the stage if there's no decay.


It's important to rate and discuss both Zelda and Sheik and individual characters, but together they are a whole lot more powerful. Sheik's character ranking will always be low due to inability to kill at decent percent without gimping recoveries, etc. But swapping to Zelda after 100% is usually easy and almost always gurantees a kill by 120%. Zelda is held back by...well you read about this already. But Sheik lets Zelda cover bad matchups, so that when you are playing as Zelda you only need to land a few solid hits to gurantee the KO.

While I still don't think they'd be a top tier contender, if they were listed together they'd probably be fairly high on the tier list. Zelda/Sheik should be listed as the sum of its parts. IE... ranked with the assumption it's a high level player who uses both characters at high level and chooses which one strategically.

 

[rageagainst]

Oftentimes this is a misconception that arises due to perception.
In brawl, there is no expected rate of racking. No one comments on games by saying: you aren't racking at the expected rate of racking.
But there's an expected % for killing. People say, hey, what the crap, you're opponent is alive at 180%.

This makes many people say Zelda needs Sheik less than Sheik needs Zelda, but that's often, i would say usually, a perception issue and not true analysis on whether Zelda can rack better or Sheik can kill better. People watch a Zelda game that was lost, but could've been won with better racking and say nothing. Then they watch a full Sheik game where the opponent lived to the 170s and say "he needed to use Zelda, he needed kill moves".

I feel it is unfair to say that either character is more dependent than the other. I think they should both be considered the same character. Many people use them as such.

Compared to the people who use them separately, very few people use them together. You misunderstood my statement, yea sure shiek has a higher rate of racking and may as well kill someone at the same time Zelda would, BUT its generally true that Zelda has more favorable matchups than Sheik, and Zelda does infact have damage racking moves along WITH kill moves, and this is why its more advantageous for a Sheik to have Zelda's strengths than vice versa.

Ignoring the tactical advantages of using Sheik instead in a matchup that's bad for Zelda, the fact that knockback can be refreshed by swapping back and forth is ultra valuable. Zelda has a ton of kill moves, but oftentimes you have to decay them in order to get damage, making it hard to kill characters who aren't light. Refreshing your knockback does wonders, as basically any of Zelda's moves will KO any opponent at 120% if you hit an opponent away from the center of the stage if there's no decay.

Yea there's a huge advantage of bieng Sheik and switching to Zelda for a kill. (assuming its a good matchup for Sheik) Its just that its unconventional and tricky to setup. When people say Sheik needs Zelda more than vice versa, they mean than individually Zelda fares better than an individual Sheik. Definately, by all means, its 20x smarter to be sheik when your going against a bad Zelda matchup (such as G&W) and usually Zelda's bad matchups are atleast neutral to Sheik., but once again, few people do this because of the setup required.
It's important to rate and discuss both Zelda and Sheik and individual characters, but together they are a whole lot more powerful. Sheik's character ranking will always be low due to inability to kill at decent percent without gimping recoveries, etc. But swapping to Zelda after 100% is usually easy and almost always gurantees a kill by 120%. Zelda is held back by...well you read about this already. But Sheik lets Zelda cover bad matchups, so that when you are playing as Zelda you only need to land a few solid hits to gurantee the KO.

While I still don't think they'd be a top tier contender, if they were listed together they'd probably be fairly high on the tier list. Zelda/Sheik should be listed as the sum of its parts. IE... ranked with the assumption it's a high level player who uses both characters at high level and chooses which one strategically.
I don't think they will ever be just simply clumped together, since too many people use them separately, however, if enough people start using Sheik/Zelda (like me ), I would expect them to have Zelda, Sheik, and Sheik/Zelda. Sheik/Zelda has completely different advantages/disadvantages compared to Sheik and Zelda alone.

 

[Kilut]

Zelda is awesome in teams. g&w and her is a great team.

Bucket+Din's is awesome

She also somewhat loses her bad approach in teams.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda does quite badly against fast characters who have excellent approach and air tactics. Characters like MK, G&W, and Fox are examples of characters I see as being very unfavorable, and from what I've seen, even Sonic and Falcon are no cakewalk for Zelda because they can take advantage of anything she doesn't space extremely well by being much more mobile than her.

As for G&W, who I mentioned is good at approaching and fast moving, more than that, his Bucket almost completely stops her from using Din's Fire.

Ness and Lucas are not easy for Zelda either when they have some disjointed range, and ways of shutting down Din's Fire.

However I'd say she's situationally top tier in team battles. G&W + Zelda is pretty much broken craziness.

 

[S2]

Yeah, as mentioned Zelda is extremely good for team games, as she can compliment a lot of characters well.

She can projectile harass to great lengths if you have a partner who is good at keeping himself between you and the other two team members. Din's is pretty good in 1v1s, but it's awesome in teams.

She also does well if your partner has a character who can play aggressive and has good approaches. Zelda does have 1 big problem on teams, which is that her hitboxes make it so that you can't safely attack if your partner is nearly you (without hitting them as well). In that respect, Zelda's range and priority are usually her best attributes... but it means you really can't have your partner anywhere close to you unless your Din's spamming.

BTW, there are plenty of cheap combos you can do with Zelda. She can fill G&W's bucket, heal both PK users...

but best of all she can sit behind certain characters and create a near inpenetrable wall.

Zelda+Falco is a total nightmare. Zelda Din's and Falco double shorthop lasers and uses his reflector if an opponent gets too close. I have a somewhat regular partner who main Link... Din's+Boomerang+Arrows is not fun at all for the other team.

 

[rageagainst]

Zelda does quite badly against fast characters who have excellent approach and air tactics. Characters like MK, G&W, and Fox are examples of characters I see as being very unfavorable, and from what I've seen, even Sonic and Falcon are no cakewalk for Zelda because they can take advantage of anything she doesn't space extremely well by being much more mobile than her.

As for G&W, who I mentioned is good at approaching and fast moving, more than that, his Bucket almost completely stops her from using Din's Fire.

Ness and Lucas are not easy for Zelda either when they have some disjointed range, and ways of shutting down Din's Fire.

However I'd say she's situationally top tier in team battles. G&W + Zelda is pretty much broken craziness.

Stop pointing out her flaws guys (and I would have to disagree with you that she does horrible against MK), no one said "Zelda is the new MK" or "Zelda is the new Snake," What people ARE saying though is "Zelda is useless" "Zelda for low tier," and then no one uses her in tournies. When clearly she deserves atleast mid-tier.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Zelda does quite badly against fast characters who have excellent approach and air tactics. Characters like MK, G&W, and Fox are examples of characters I see as being very unfavorable, and from what I've seen, even Sonic and Falcon are no cakewalk for Zelda because they can take advantage of anything she doesn't space extremely well by being much more mobile than her.

As for G&W, who I mentioned is good at approaching and fast moving, more than that, his Bucket almost completely stops her from using Din's Fire.

Ness and Lucas are not easy for Zelda either when they have some disjointed range, and ways of shutting down Din's Fire.

However I'd say she's situationally top tier in team battles. G&W + Zelda is pretty much broken craziness.

i disagree with you here. i can understand the disadvantage to g&w and i can understand mk (even through many think it is even) but i have beaten to many sonic's and fox's to agree with you there and cf has nothing on her as well. yes they are fast but as a defensive character she can handle them without much problem.

And for the ness,lucas i can understand why you think they have the advantage and that might even be right (i have not had trouble against any luca's and have not fought many ness's) but you put to much weight into din's fire just b/c you can't use it that much does not mean much and if ness,lucas have the advantage against zelda it is not a very big one

 

[Excel_Zero]

I'd like to point out a few things about Zelda, as she was my main character when the game was first released.

-Nair doesn't lag when she lands, so you can fast fall the attack (making it end before sending the enemy away) and link with other speedy attacks, as dsmash.

-Usmash catches opponents trying to airdodge to touch the ground.

-Ledgehopping nairs is awesome, because if you hit your opponent, you will send them offstage.

-Using Din's Fire when recovering from top works incredibly good. Surprised this wasn't discussed here.

-Zelda may be able to jab infinite at low % on walls. Check this video out at 2:39: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XS_pCSnoRGM. I kept hitting him for a while, but I'm not sure if he was DIing correctly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

-Using Din's Fire when recovering from top works incredibly good. Surprised this wasn't discussed here.

it works decently wel... not incredibly good... what with the whole death-free-fall afterwards

 

[PsychoKnight]

Her aerial has little to no lag, so it can turn into another aerial or smash or whatever you choose.
Dins Fire is very good, it can be used to just punish, but also can be a good way in bringing your opponents closer to you, to set up for a good punishing move.

Of course I always smile when I pull of the lighting kick(definitely the Falcon Knee of Brawl(well there is one..but yeah). It really can become easy to pull off, except against smaller characters, I dont aim for it with opponents like mario or lucas.

Recovery, definitely needs to fix that next game..the simple dead drop is a tear jerker ahh. Such precise is needed to pull it off well, but its all a good counter attack or simply can just throw off your opponent.

Zelda,once the basics get done, and the practice begins to pay off, she will be your best arsenal with the right amount of skill!

I use Sheik to rack up a lot sometimes and even do some kill, but Zelda could rack also depending on my opponent, or she does a kill herself(my favorite.)

 

[-Ran]

Originally, I had written the following for the Marth Forum.

The most annoying thing about fighting Zelda is her incredible spacing tool of the ->B. The timing is often hard for someone to anticipate if you go off of the incoming Din's Fire. This causes perhaps the first few hits to be blocked, but eventually a failure occurs within the first five attacks which is viewed as a successful spacer for Zelda. Most importantly, most Marth players remove their eyes from Zelda in order to avoid the incoming Fire Ball of d00m. They'll jump and charge frantically...

In actuality, the timing for the move is irrelevant. You don't even have to take your eyes off of Zelda. In order to turn the move into a lethal force, Zelda -must- activate an animation which involves her hands from her back, to snapping forwards. This snapping motion is the instant that the attack has become a damaging force, and the moment that it needs to be dodged. If you're standing, this means simply doing a Down+Shield to avoid all chip damage vs your shield.

All you simply need to do is watch her hands, and they'll tell you exactly when to do your side step or air dodge. No more second guessing or mind games with Zelda. After you perfectly dodge around five, a Zelda player will -give- up the strategy of spamming. Once a strategy has been ruled ineffective, anyone with common sense will give up. Sure, they can use it as a spacing tool, but it won't advance their battle plan.

Once the 'tell' has been mastered, you can go onto the offensive. =D

Characters with a faster projectile can make Din's Fire fail relatively quickly. Even a Snake player can just throw a grenade to stop or startle the Zelda Player.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Originally, I had written the following for the Marth Forum.


Characters with a faster projectile can make Din's Fire fail relatively quickly. Even a Snake player can just throw a grenade to stop or startle the Zelda Player.

it's not that bad... honestly it's not. Din's is neiether God... nor is it worthless... it's somewhere in between

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Zelda can be a pain in the ***! She has pretty **** powerful attacks, it's just they are a tad on teh slow side, and I right? She has KO potential! I've seen some good Zelda's, and they are just awesome!

Zelda is defensive, and Shiek is offensive--but Zelda can administe the final hit once shiek beats tehm down!

note: not an xperienced zelda user, but I have noticed this much over time

 

[rageagainst]

Zelda can be a pain in the ***! She has pretty **** powerful attacks, it's just they are a tad on teh slow side, and I right? She has KO potential! I've seen some good Zelda's, and they are just awesome!

Zelda is defensive, and Shiek is offensive--but Zelda can administe the final hit once shiek beats tehm down!

note: not an xperienced zelda user, but I have noticed this much over time

no

Zelda's attacks are fast AND strong. The problem with them is that they require spacing.

 

[Iris]

Zelda's moves aren't really fast. They may have low starting and ending lag, but the move is out for a long time.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Exactly! The moves seem slow to me.. like her up smash..?

 

[KhannKlan]

to clarify, nintendo was pretty lazy with down B. If you pay any attention at all, you will see that the transformation time changes. It changes because it has to load the character mid-match rather than loading both at the same time in melee and giving the move a set duration.

Lazy Nintendo. Lazy.

Also, try hitting down B and immediately pausing, it will still load the other character during the pause. Very lazy Nintendo. Very, very lazy.

I hope no one minds me posting this, but I'm going to go ahead and be a fan boy. Hal Laboratory made this game, not Nintendo, I blame Sakurai for his foolishness, small things like this are kind of depressing when you think of what kind of programmers he hired to make this crap.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's moves are NOT slow... unless, by slow you mean they have lingering hitboxes.... but that;s a GOOD thing normally.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

They seem slow to me--but idk I don't use her much.. so you are right, you have more exp. with her than me.. and yea, I noticed the transformation time was extended, wondered why

 

[A2ZOMG]

i disagree with you here. i can understand the disadvantage to g&w and i can understand mk (even through many think it is even) but i have beaten to many sonic's and fox's to agree with you there and cf has nothing on her as well. yes they are fast but as a defensive character she can handle them without much problem.

From what footage I've seen of Darkmusician's Zelda vs fast characters like Sonic, surely yeah, Sonic really doesn't have much advantage vs anyone because he's just not good. But no really, the matchup if done correctly is very difficult for Zelda. Sonic has enough run speed to wait for her to whiff a Smash attack, and then get a grab. Once Zelda is in the air, it is extremely difficult for her to do anything because all of her aerials need extremely good spacing.

Falcon likewise it's a similar case. He has enough mobility to wait for her to mess up her spacing, and then punish. And again, her problem is once she's in the air. Zelda is one of few characters I'd say Falcon can consistently Knee without risking too much, because Zelda from what I've seen has no safe options in the air.

Mind you, I never said these matchups were disadvantaged for Zelda, but rather they are not easy, despite these two characters in question being among the worst in the game.

In fact, I really don't think Din's Fire is THAT hard to get past. Shielding ruins it. The only form of approaching Din's Fire wrecks is aerial approaches, because of course air dodging is much more punishable than shielding.

And for the ness,lucas i can understand why you think they have the advantage and that might even be right (i have not had trouble against any luca's and have not fought many ness's) but you put to much weight into din's fire just b/c you can't use it that much does not mean much and if ness,lucas have the advantage against zelda it is not a very big one

Well, this is the logic I have. The problem is Zelda can't approach (liek srsly, worst approacher in Brawl), and if she can't camp, then she basically has nothing left.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda can't approach (liek srsly, worst approacher in Brawl), and if she can't camp, then she basically has nothing left.

get out

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

the thing for the sonic/falcon is that zelda can wait for them to approach and then reck them. also it might be true they run fast but some of there moves don't come out fast making them easy to hit when they are trying to attack.

and for the approach being the worst in the gameand her having nothing left let me just say i am guessing you have never fought a good zelda have you.

 

[Oh Snap]

Looks like the SBR don't think to highly of Zelda =/

All of her aerials are telegraphed way in advance; if Zelda is below you, expect u-air. If she is to the side, expect a fair or bair. If you are below, expect a nair or dair.

I know uair comes out a bit slow, but what you said...isn't it common sense? I mean, if someone is infront of Peach and in the air, wouldn't you expect a fair? If someone is above Tlink, wouldn't you expect a uair from him?

Am I missing something?

 

[rageagainst]

In fact, I really don't think Din's Fire is THAT hard to get past. Shielding ruins it. The only form of approaching Din's Fire wrecks is aerial approaches, because of course air dodging is much more punishable than shielding.
The thing is that it forces people to approach in the 1st place, giving Zelda the advantage since she has one of the best defence games in Brawl. Theres no way these characters can play defensively against Zelda.
Well, this is the logic I have. The problem is Zelda can't approach (liek srsly, worst approacher in Brawl), and if she can't camp, then she basically has nothing left.

Zelda by FAR does not have the worst approaches in brawl (see Link). She can dash attack, jumping Naryus, hyphen smash, jumping nair, and dash grab


@Oh Snap
"I know uair comes out a bit slow, but what you said...isn't it common sense? I mean, if someone is infront of Peach and in the air, wouldn't you expect a fair? If someone is above Tlink, wouldn't you expect a uair from him?

Am I missing something?"

Zelda moves slower than those characters so its easier to see what arial she's going to do, and also these moves require precise spacing making them useful for only certain situations, so you can see them coming. The trick is to be unpredictable.

 

[Oh Snap]

Ohhh okay.

But sometimes being predictible isn't bad. A lot of times my opponent air dodges before I even launch uair. It gives me time to position myself right below them, and once their air dodge animation is over I can sucessfully uair them. But then they DI rofl.

 

[X Factor]

"Zelda by FAR does not have the worst approaches in brawl (see Link). She can dash attack, jumping Naryus, hyphen smash, jumping nair, and dash grab"

Thanks for the tips for offensive approaching =). But what's a "hyphen smash"?

 

[Arean]

running upsmash slide whatever.... If you use the gamecube controller then dash forward and up on the cstick.. she will perform an upsmash with a little slide

 

[Turbo Ether]

Zelda's uptilt actually has more KO power than her Upsmash. It kills at the exact same percents as Snakes Uptilt.

 

[Mike B]

isn't SH A^ better than laggy ^smash though?

 

[GodAtHand]

^ Not exact same either snakes is about 1 or 2% stronger.