• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Weekly Character Discussion: Zelda

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
Do you think we should do Sheik / Zelda separate or together? I am thinking separate, but I will change the name if you guys think we should do them together.

Either way, Zelda is one of those characters like Toon Link that seems amazing but no one uses her. Her moves are so ridiculously strong and you CANNOT approve her from above. Maybe it's her weird recovery?
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
Hm, separate seems better to me. It seems like very few people use both in one match.

I've thought Zelda has potential since day 1. Her forward+B comes out really fast and can even kill, she can really keep the pressure on with it. Forward smash is easy to connect because it lasts for a while. Downsmash is still as fast (and as weak) as ever, but it's a good way to keep people at a distance. Aerial forward is insanely strong, even on characters like Snake it can kill relatively early when fresh. It's a bit weird how people are stunned for a short while after it connects though, looks weird. Other killer moves include aerial up, upsmash and uptilt. Basically, Zelda has great killing potential in both directions.

The bad? Most of her moves aren't that fast and range can be lacking against certain characters. I'd like to hear more about her weaknesses though, I've always had some trouble against her and tend to do well when using her. I can easily see her being high tier.
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
The thing about Zelda is that, in an approach situation, if she's in the air, it's pretty obvious what she is going to do (This was sort of true in Melee as well but in Melee you weren't forced to spend as much time in the air off a single jump, and could also Lcancel, so you could play with timing a bit more; Zelda sucked for different reasons). For the most part all her other aerials are more useful than they were in Melee: her uair is pretty darn strong if you can land it, pretty much anything is better than her Melee dair, and I'm still working on nair uses. Those are nice and everything but they do nothing for her approach game. Also, it's a fu
cking bi
tch using fair/bair to hit medium to smaller sized characters like Squirtle, MK, even sometimes people the size of GW or Mario. There is hardly any point in trying to hit them with the boot while they are on the ground. Also if you hit someone with the crappy hit of the heel, generally they are out of hitstun before you have finished the move, so that sucks. The heel is awesome to break combos with if you land the sweetspot though.

Of course you could ask "why approach?" and spam Din's Fire until they get close; Zelda's defense seems to be pretty good with the u/d/fsmashes, and Nayru's to some extent, though the lack of hitstun really hurts its usefulness. All her smashes are pretty good, her usmash is actually slightly more powerful than Ganon's, but I think on average it ends up killing later because it tends to get used/decayed more. However if you're in a situation where you can be camped back and aren't leading in %/stock, this is a big problem. I just really see her approach game as very lacking, and this is why I don't think she will get too much past mid tier. Too many people can spam her back or avoid Din's altogether in approach (it's not that hard to just run up to them, shield them, then move forward again), and then you just have to figure out her defensive game, and don't get hit by her up B when she lands. She's kind of vulnerable in the air because you're only really worried about the bair and fair, but if you're below her there's not much she can do besides try to air dodge with her slowass falling speed, or try to up B down onto the stage. Basically if you're ever ahead against Zelda, she will have a hell of a time approaching you if you can force her to do so.

Up B is still vulnerable for a good while after the initial little ribbon hitbox, but her up B with the explodey stuff on landing is great. Fwd B hitbox gets bigger the further you are away from it. It is pretty easy for the opponent to airdodge it if they are close, but if you use it from far away, I've found you can still get them if you play with the timing a bit, and release it late so their airdodge is over and make use of the large hitbox. It's seriously really big, like, PK Flash in Melee big.

As far as I can tell there are very very few true combos with Zelda. Dtilt seems pretty good as it seems you can trip people into another dtilt a fair number of times. It seems like the best way to cheaply rack up damage early on. Sometimes you can get an ftilt or dthrow to bair on someone that doesn't know what they are doing, but I'm fairly certain it's not an actual combo. For throws I really think the best thing to do is throw them as far away from you as possible and resume Din's Fire spam. That and the dtilts are good ways to get your kill moves out of the decay queue. I've started really trying to save my usmashes for when I need to kill, and definitely the better for it, it's a great and relatively easy to land move. You can kill Snake at not much about 100% if it's fresh.

I'm actually seriously considering trying to learn Sheik for lower % so I can approach worth anything, and try to find a way to switch to Zelda to use nondecayed moves to get kills.
 

AOB

Bad command or file name
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 22, 2003
Messages
6,166
Location
Louisville KY
you CANNOT approve her from above.
Approach?

Zelda has an amazing dash-grab. Not quite like MK, but it has good reach and speed. The down throw goes into a foot or an up smash if your opponent forgets to DI back.

I usually approach with a dash grab, dash attack, or running up smash. The up smash has a huge hit box that beats almost anything, and I think you can even hit Olimar on the ground with it. It also kills well despite how often I use it. Air attacks are useless for approaching--they don't go into anything, and if you hit a shield with the foot, YOU are stunned for a second while your opponent is not.

Maybe it's because I'm not good, but Snake is really hard to beat. You have to be ridiculously careful, or you get hit by a few forward tilts and you have lots of damage.

Down-B seems like a pretty weak move, I'd say.
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
D-tilt to dash grab seems to work really well. Marc, you said the dsmash is weak. It seems amazing to me, but I could be crazy. It has the trajectory of Falco's dsmash in Melee.

I've found opponents usually airdodge the side B too soon and I can detonate it when they're done.

She reminds me a lot of Snake because her ground game is so good but her aerial game sucks a fat one.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
I usually dish out the majority of my damage with Sheik so by the time I actually use Zelda the opponent dies the moment I touch him.

Zelda has way too many KO moves. Her fsmash and usmash are multihit, making them escapable by SDI, but at the same time giving them the ability to shieldstab. She's got an awesome dtilt that can keep them locked at mid %s and given wrong DI can combo directly into a usmash at higher %s. Her dsmash has such a low trajectory and high knockback for its speed that it's a legitimate hit out of shield AND it KOs at decent %s. Din's Fire is just scary as an edgeguard for a lot of characters. Her dash attack and utilt can KO too, at times.

Zelda's aerials are all spacing and timing based, with the exception of her nair, but they all pretty much wreck. Landing a fair or bair can KO at the mid %s, which is surprising. I think Ryoko mentioned that uair KOs people off the top at under 100%. Zelda's sweetspotted dair is another lightning kick. The downside is that these aerials are both punishable when shielded and very easily air-dodged/spot-dodged. Good thing she's got multihit punishments for dodges with her nair and Nayru's Love.

I don't like the fact that using her early on only lowers her killing potential, which is why I use Transform pretty liberally. Plus it completely clears your attack decay list.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
D-tilt to dash grab seems to work really well. Marc, you said the dsmash is weak. It seems amazing to me, but I could be crazy. It has the trajectory of Falco's dsmash in Melee.

I've found opponents usually airdodge the side B too soon and I can detonate it when they're done.

She reminds me a lot of Snake because her ground game is so good but her aerial game sucks a fat one.
Looking at it again, the downsmash is definitely buffed up from Melee, as long as it's fresh (which it usually isn't for me). The trajectory is really nice, but it never really worked as a killing move for me. Many characters can come back from wherever unless they're actually dead, something other moves accomplish a bit better. But regardless of its killing potential, we can all agree that it's a good move. Might be worth saving up till the opponent is past 100%, but I find it's a nice move to use when people are getting too close for comfort.

Din's Fire is one of the best projectiles in the game IMO and really easy to hit. And yeah, she reminds me of Snake as well. =]
 

wWw Dazwa

#BADMAN
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,569
Location
maine
I don't have much experience with or against Zelda, but I do know a neat trick with her in teams. If she's teaming with a Falco, she can sit behind him shooting Din's fire while Falco SHDLs. Skler and th0rn did this to Darc and I at XESTICLE and managed to sneak a game off of us in one of the two sets we met up in the tournament.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
You've gotta make up your mind Lee. If you're going to do these, do them and write the synopsis at the end. If you're not, just don't.
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
I don't have much experience with or against Zelda, but I do know a neat trick with her in teams. If she's teaming with a Falco, she can sit behind him shooting Din's fire while Falco SHDLs. Skler and th0rn did this to Darc and I at XESTICLE and managed to sneak a game off of us in one of the two sets we met up in the tournament.
That sounds pretty dirty. I'll bet it'd work with a Samus using zair as well.
 

RyokoYaksa

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
5,056
Location
Philadelphia, USA
You're on absolute crack if you don't think Zelda's Dsmash is beast.
UnDI'd or badly DI'd, a solid Dsmash sends average recoveries to their deaths.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Zelda....

ARGH!!!

D-tilt to d-tilt to d-tilt etc.

I hate you Ryoko.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
You're on absolute crack if you don't think Zelda's Dsmash is beast.
UnDI'd or badly DI'd, a solid Dsmash sends average recoveries to their deaths.
Yeah, tried it out on characters like Mario and Link, works wonders there.

...too bad I usually play against Robot, Meta Knight etc.
 

RyokoYaksa

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
5,056
Location
Philadelphia, USA
Then do the next best thing and kill them with it. Zelda's Dsmash is ridiculously strong in that area too if you hit them at the edge. And it can hit characters that are slightly below or are hanging on the edge.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
Yeah, it's become clear to me that I might have overlooked some of the downsmash's killing potential. Zelda is just one of my secondaries though, which leads me to ask...

Among the characters actually used at tournaments, what are Zelda's good and bad match ups? I've personally found she doesn't give Snake and Meta Knight too much trouble, although even the heavy Snake has to watch out for her killing moves. Toon Link can tear her apart as well from my experience. I'm not too sure of her match up against Robot, but I can see her doing decently there. Dedede can't chain grab her and I think she has the tools to take him on as well. Falco? DK? Marth? To me, it looks like quick small targets are the hardest (Toon Link, Meta Knight etc).
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
She actually does pretty well against Snake.Snakes air game sucks and she does pretty well against his ground game. Her smashes have awesome range and a ton of power. She does really well against ROB because he sucks so badly at approaching from above Osimilar to SnakeP and she takes advantage of that with moves like up smash.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Zelda does well against ROB; she has an answer to just about everything.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
1,897
Location
Spencer, MA
does terrible vs gw. Bucketable defense game, dtilt/bair/fair out range most of her smashes/aerials. however i will admit i have little experience vs zelda, just on paper she doesn't seem to have the tools to compete vs gw.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Down-B seems like a pretty weak move, I'd say.
to clarify, nintendo was pretty lazy with down B. If you pay any attention at all, you will see that the transformation time changes. It changes because it has to load the character mid-match rather than loading both at the same time in melee and giving the move a set duration.

Lazy Nintendo. Lazy.

Also, try hitting down B and immediately pausing, it will still load the other character during the pause. Very lazy Nintendo. Very, very lazy.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
She actually does pretty well against Snake.Snakes air game sucks and she does pretty well against his ground game. Her smashes have awesome range and a ton of power. She does really well against ROB because he sucks so badly at approaching from above Osimilar to SnakeP and she takes advantage of that with moves like up smash.
I've played Zelda only a few times using Snake. I have to say it was tough at first, but I've never lost to her and it seemed to get easier with every match. I'd consider her among Snake's tougher match ups, but nothing he shouldn't be able to handle. She can't do much about his tilts, so he pretty much tears her apart close range. I didn't know she gives Robot trouble, I'll look into that match up some more.

I've noticed experiences can be really different when it comes to match ups btw. Maybe it's too early to really discuss this. =/ Playing style needs to be taken into account anyway.
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
I want to see some examples of how Zelda does vs a Snake (or specific explanation, video would probably be easier) because it looks pretty bad to me.
 

Arash

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
1,401
Location
Irvine, CA
has anyone else noticed that zelda's dair will spike if you hit with the tip? pure awesome

when the game first came out i noticed zelda got way better, and she can break open smashballs with din's fire if anyone cares

she'd make top 10 on my list
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
Ah.. that's what I figured - Zelda needs Sheik. I always thought Sheik did well vs Snake, so this makes sense and is good to know.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I think it'd be good to add that "stale moves" disappear after you switch. So if you kill someone off the top and switch from zelda to sheik to zelda, none of your moves are stale.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
Uh, double transform would take such a long time that you'd be setting yourself up for a charged fsmash from Ike.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Uh, double transform would take such a long time that you'd be setting yourself up for a charged fsmash from Ike.
Think of that as an example and not a tip :)

IF you switch from sheik to zelda after you knock someone off, kill them, then switch to sheik again, none of your moves are stale.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
In the hint, I basically suggested that becoming Shiek is a viable strategy for Zelda to fix some of her shortcomings... but in retrospective I think I should've saved that for Shiek. Zelda does fine as a standalone character, and while turning to Shiek is a viable strategy, its not really necessary per se. Whereas for Shiek, it seems nearly necessary in order to actually get a KO.
 

VilNess

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
2,603
Location
Finland
Sheik can get KO´s alone too. Upsmash kills the best. UpB, Fsmash 2nd hit and such are good too... and bair, uair, dsmash KO to some extent. But yea, it´s easier to KO with Zelda.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
-_-;;

Summary

Zelda has a plethora of useful knockout moves, many of which that deal good damage. Add to this an incredible projectile and a decent reflector and you've got a pretty good character in terms of offense. Because of Din's Fire, she doesn't even really need to approach very often or take risks to edgeguard. She can just sit back and spam her fireball all day until she approves of the distance between her and her opponent.

Unfortunately for Zelda, landing the moves are a bit of a different story. All of her aerials are telegraphed way in advance; if Zelda is below you, expect u-air. If she is to the side, expect a fair or bair. If you are below, expect a nair or dair. All of them require precise spacing, making it very difficult to land on smaller characters controlled by smart opponents. Her smashes don't require as much spacing or timing to pull off, but while she can use her f-smash and u-smash in many situations, the ability to DI out of the final "hit" of these attacks makes them considerably less useful than her d-smash. Her d-smash sends opponents out at a crazy angle, comes out quickly and hits all around her making this arguably her best knockout move. Her tilts, while effective and powerful, come out at about the same speed as her smashes; this makes them less useful.

Zelda's recovery also limits her survivability. While there is a small hitbox when she lands, the inability to recover at odd angles makes her easy to edgeguard if she is put in a bad position. The lag afterwards, while slight, is enough to allow an opponent to attack you; since Zelda's aerials are difficult to land effectively in situations where Zelda isn't controlling her spacing, this makes it difficult for Zelda to get back to the stage from above.

Zelda is a powerful character, but a precise one; because she requires so much in her favor, it is difficult to keep yourself in a good position the entire time. Through patience and smart aggression, Zelda's opponents can keep her in trouble long enough, and it is unlikely that any but the best Zelda's will be able to deal with this pressure.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
The update is on Monday. No one can see this and know you were late last week and that should push it to Tuesday for some reason.

It updates on Monday, as will the one for next week -_-;;
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
You called him homeslice. Its been a long time since I've heard that :D



Everything after this post is general discussion!
 
Top Bottom