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Weekly Character Discussion: Pokémon Trainer
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
I really like the synopsis, but to say that everytime you use down-b is a free hit for your opponent is a bit ignorant. Obviously, you'll have to knock them away for you to switch, but it is doable, especially at high percentages where every pokemon has a throw with above par knockback.
Taking that into account, I also prefer having Ivysaur out at low percentages (my fav of all 3) and switch to Charizard around 100%. He tanks better, he's pretty **** strong, and you at least have a chance of making it back onto the stage at that point. I don't really see how Ivysaur is that much different from Olimar, recovery wise. He can throw leaves just like oli can chuck his pikmin, his tether is unnaffected by the attacks he uses to get his opponent off the ledge while oli's loses in length... Both Up-Bs can also stage-spike when sniped from underneath. Olimar probably doesn't fall as fast, and he does have u-air, but that's it. And as stated, Ivy being an extremely good camper makes up for it in my book. Hell, he outranges MK in almost every aspect, like Oli, except that he is not confined to the ground. B-air is sex.
Taking that into account, I also prefer having Ivysaur out at low percentages (my fav of all 3) and switch to Charizard around 100%. He tanks better, he's pretty **** strong, and you at least have a chance of making it back onto the stage at that point. I don't really see how Ivysaur is that much different from Olimar, recovery wise. He can throw leaves just like oli can chuck his pikmin, his tether is unnaffected by the attacks he uses to get his opponent off the ledge while oli's loses in length... Both Up-Bs can also stage-spike when sniped from underneath. Olimar probably doesn't fall as fast, and he does have u-air, but that's it. And as stated, Ivy being an extremely good camper makes up for it in my book. Hell, he outranges MK in almost every aspect, like Oli, except that he is not confined to the ground. B-air is sex.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Agh, I want this sooo bad.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
I'm kinda impressed, actually. Although I am a little surprised that they didn't mention how difficult it can be to adjust after each switch, for both players.
And yes, I would be interested in doing the hint this week
And yes, I would be interested in doing the hint this week
colored blind
Smash Journeyman
No, but the fatigue system may make it impractical to do. By not spending time as all Pokemon, you make the time limits even worse for the ones you're using. Unless it's a complete **** matchup, it's better to use all three at times.
This was a pretty good synopsis and discussion, actually. No mention of Squirtle's ATs, but pretty much everything they said about Squirtle still applies. I don't think Ivysaur's recovery is better than Olimar, though. Olimar has the Whistle to stop the gimps, and it's likely that he can throw a Purple and be just as effective as Razor Leaf. Ivy does have air stalling options, though, with his Dair.
The part about keeping Ivy in only at high percents was a good point. She's heavy enough that it's hard to kill her outright.
This was a pretty good synopsis and discussion, actually. No mention of Squirtle's ATs, but pretty much everything they said about Squirtle still applies. I don't think Ivysaur's recovery is better than Olimar, though. Olimar has the Whistle to stop the gimps, and it's likely that he can throw a Purple and be just as effective as Razor Leaf. Ivy does have air stalling options, though, with his Dair.
The part about keeping Ivy in only at high percents was a good point. She's heavy enough that it's hard to kill her outright.
Best comment in the entire discussion.
Ivysaur is one of the slowest aerial characters in the game and has a pretty bad second jump. I'd say Oli's recovery is sliiiiightly better, although Ivy's tether is much longer. Because it doesn't matter how long that tether is if someone's on the ledge.
Ivy ***** fat people. It's disgusting. Huge targets for BS (lulz), bair/tilts spacing, Razor Leaf, grabs, uair/dair/nair...even though ROB tears Ivy a new one off stage, on stage ROB will be frustrated if he can't keep Ivy at long range with projectiles.
Bad Recovery + Bad KO options = not a very good character though. But that's okay, switching to Charizard solves those problems, for the most part.
Rock Smash is one of the top 5 moves in the game. It is so good. It's stupid. It comes out in like 5 frames and if the opponent hits the rock, they take damage. Charizard's ground game is so good if there aren't projectiles in his fat face. Grabs and Flamethrower. Good spacing tilts. Off stage he is probably at his best. Fair is often a gimp if you land it correctly. Rock Smash off stage is funny on characters like Snake. Dair spike is solid, not spectacular. Bair's sweetspot has huge knockback. Bair v Fair is mostly a preference.Rock Smash Charizard is a pretty good character.
Squirtle is fun. Catch some opponents in a utilt at low percent and you just earned yourself like 50% with utilt to uair to fair stuff. Most Squirtles' problem is that they wants to rack up damage really really quickly and he isn't all that good at it if you don't get a utilt combo. Just play patiently and the opponent will be FRUSTRATED because they can't hit Squirtle very well. Get chip damage in, string a few attacks together when you see the opening. Then use dthrow to switch to Ivysaur if he's fatigued. Or use dthrow to kill. USE DTHROW. Squirtle is a pretty good character. He's really frustrating to play against if you don't have huge disjointed hitboxes. Or a gay grab release, although grabbing Squirtle can be a chore.
Anyway decent discussion, didn't see anything new.
Fatigue really isn't that much of an issue because PT can play the EXACT same way, use a would-be KO move and switch to a fresh Poke. Fatigue is overrated. It just makes you switch when you would KO, basically. Yeah, it's not a positive but it isn't PT's biggest problem.
I just want to say one thing. There are LOTS of different ways to play Pokemon Trainer. Everyone is going to have a different favorite and one Pokemon will suit that player better than the others. Opponents really don't know what to expect because every Trainer levels up their Pokemon differently (and PT is really rare as it is). For example, my Ivysaur is only level 63 but I used the Missingno glitch and got my Squirtle to level 256. Too pro.
No really though, Trainer's alright. Much better than the worst characters in the game. He's like average. The potential is still there because we don't see any pro players bothering to pick up his ridiculous skill curve.
Ivy ***** fat people. It's disgusting. Huge targets for BS (lulz), bair/tilts spacing, Razor Leaf, grabs, uair/dair/nair...even though ROB tears Ivy a new one off stage, on stage ROB will be frustrated if he can't keep Ivy at long range with projectiles.
Bad Recovery + Bad KO options = not a very good character though. But that's okay, switching to Charizard solves those problems, for the most part.
Rock Smash is one of the top 5 moves in the game. It is so good. It's stupid. It comes out in like 5 frames and if the opponent hits the rock, they take damage. Charizard's ground game is so good if there aren't projectiles in his fat face. Grabs and Flamethrower. Good spacing tilts. Off stage he is probably at his best. Fair is often a gimp if you land it correctly. Rock Smash off stage is funny on characters like Snake. Dair spike is solid, not spectacular. Bair's sweetspot has huge knockback. Bair v Fair is mostly a preference.
Squirtle is fun. Catch some opponents in a utilt at low percent and you just earned yourself like 50% with utilt to uair to fair stuff. Most Squirtles' problem is that they wants to rack up damage really really quickly and he isn't all that good at it if you don't get a utilt combo. Just play patiently and the opponent will be FRUSTRATED because they can't hit Squirtle very well. Get chip damage in, string a few attacks together when you see the opening. Then use dthrow to switch to Ivysaur if he's fatigued. Or use dthrow to kill. USE DTHROW. Squirtle is a pretty good character. He's really frustrating to play against if you don't have huge disjointed hitboxes. Or a gay grab release, although grabbing Squirtle can be a chore.
Anyway decent discussion, didn't see anything new.
Fatigue really isn't that much of an issue because PT can play the EXACT same way, use a would-be KO move and switch to a fresh Poke. Fatigue is overrated. It just makes you switch when you would KO, basically. Yeah, it's not a positive but it isn't PT's biggest problem.
I just want to say one thing. There are LOTS of different ways to play Pokemon Trainer. Everyone is going to have a different favorite and one Pokemon will suit that player better than the others. Opponents really don't know what to expect because every Trainer levels up their Pokemon differently (and PT is really rare as it is). For example, my Ivysaur is only level 63 but I used the Missingno glitch and got my Squirtle to level 256. Too pro.
No really though, Trainer's alright. Much better than the worst characters in the game. He's like average. The potential is still there because we don't see any pro players bothering to pick up his ridiculous skill curve.
Honestly, I'm going to have to disagree with stamina being a limiting factor. The problem with stamina is that it encourages you to switch when you might otherwise not... however, I almost never find myself at the limit.
Since jabs and pummels don't count, I normally hit the fatigue mark at around 90 seconds. That would be terrible for most characters, but all three PT have some of the fastest stocks in the game, for better or worse. All three Pokemon have amazing damage potential AND reliable KOs. (If you took away squirtle/charizard d-throw and ivysaur b-throw, PT instantly drops to one of the absolute worst characters...) It's also somewhat hard to stall against PT to abuse the timer... Fast projectile users can harass Charizard, but otherwise Pikachu and maybe Meta Knight are the only ones that can actively avoid PT enough to be a problem.
Pokemon Trainer actually mirrors Lucario in a sense. If you lead with Squirtle, and you get a KO, now you have a damaged Ivysaur against a low-percent opponent; it's the ideal situation, as Ivysaur won't get gimped, will deal lots of damage, and leave Charizard to come in and get the KO. However, if the opponent gets the first KO, now you have a 0% Ivysaur against an opponent who needs a KO, not damage.
Anyway, I still say that switching is incredibly underrated:
If any other character had a move that increased their weight and cleared their stale moves list, it would be used all the time!
Since jabs and pummels don't count, I normally hit the fatigue mark at around 90 seconds. That would be terrible for most characters, but all three PT have some of the fastest stocks in the game, for better or worse. All three Pokemon have amazing damage potential AND reliable KOs. (If you took away squirtle/charizard d-throw and ivysaur b-throw, PT instantly drops to one of the absolute worst characters...) It's also somewhat hard to stall against PT to abuse the timer... Fast projectile users can harass Charizard, but otherwise Pikachu and maybe Meta Knight are the only ones that can actively avoid PT enough to be a problem.
Pokemon Trainer actually mirrors Lucario in a sense. If you lead with Squirtle, and you get a KO, now you have a damaged Ivysaur against a low-percent opponent; it's the ideal situation, as Ivysaur won't get gimped, will deal lots of damage, and leave Charizard to come in and get the KO. However, if the opponent gets the first KO, now you have a 0% Ivysaur against an opponent who needs a KO, not damage.
Anyway, I still say that switching is incredibly underrated:
If any other character had a move that increased their weight and cleared their stale moves list, it would be used all the time!
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,568
Jeez, it was just talking about how the Pokemon have bad recoveries... Nothing was mentioned about Ivysaur except how she is gimped and her BS. Was Charizard really mentioned often? I didn't expect much of a conversation about PT except how he is gimped. I guess I see PT as a good character because I don't let a bad recovery run my playstyle.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Charizard is too good. Just a combination of Usmash, Rock smash, throws and maybe an f-smash is good enough for me to win.
And why does everyone call Ivysaur a she???(it sounds more like a he to me)
And why does everyone call Ivysaur a she???(it sounds more like a he to me)
Ussi
Smash Legend
This is the exact same thing that happened to me...
infernovia
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
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- 675
I just find PT really predictable. I wish their kill move wasn't so telegraphed.
Not true at all. Say you play squirt, die, come out as ivey and switch immediately to charizard, then die again at some point, then come out as squirtle again...fatigue was no bigger issue in that case than it would have been had you used ivey. The squirtle comes out fully refreshed at the end.
Fatigue gets refreshed completely when you die with a pokemon.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
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- 2,207
OK, Here's two cents on Charizard from me, Charizard92 (I'm not that much of an expert on the other two):
OK, from the get go, Charizard is the most reliable out of the three. He has so many things going for him, strength, ground speed, recovery (glide, don't forget the glide), grabs, Rock Smash, the potential for a zero to death combo, and fly even serves somewhat as a combo breaker. Of all three Pokemon, Charizard has the least shortfalls outside the obvious fatigue problem. Size, is the biggest one. He is huge, that is final. He also has no defense when someone is below or far away from him, so projectile users, and jugglers, are two of three character types that can get away with Charizard (the speedy twits are the third, but considering that that group is down to 6 people, with Meta Knight and C falcon Included, it drops down to 5 due to the fact that one of them is the lowest tier character in Brawl). Overall, Charizard is the likeliest to go to high tier if on it's own, with the least amount of pushing (I always say that you're kinda pushing it if PT was placed on the high tier list, Mid tier is much more practical).
OK, that's Charizard for you, please point out any mistakes without any rude remarks.
PS: overswarm, I read your description and I want to point out two mistakes:
A: Charizard's recovery isn't terrible, It is above average (it is definitely above average if falco's average, and is even above average if Falco's isn't average at all)
B: Actually, we do only have a lot of trouble on the top and upper high tiers: We fair well against wolf and destroy Ike, and (outside Meta Knight) at least ONE Pokemon has a shot in the upper tiers. (OK, the argument that if one's good and the other two's bad than it is a counterpick argument applies, but still, we don't have any hard counters [outside Meta Knight, but he was risking ban anyway]).
OK, from the get go, Charizard is the most reliable out of the three. He has so many things going for him, strength, ground speed, recovery (glide, don't forget the glide), grabs, Rock Smash, the potential for a zero to death combo, and fly even serves somewhat as a combo breaker. Of all three Pokemon, Charizard has the least shortfalls outside the obvious fatigue problem. Size, is the biggest one. He is huge, that is final. He also has no defense when someone is below or far away from him, so projectile users, and jugglers, are two of three character types that can get away with Charizard (the speedy twits are the third, but considering that that group is down to 6 people, with Meta Knight and C falcon Included, it drops down to 5 due to the fact that one of them is the lowest tier character in Brawl). Overall, Charizard is the likeliest to go to high tier if on it's own, with the least amount of pushing (I always say that you're kinda pushing it if PT was placed on the high tier list, Mid tier is much more practical).
OK, that's Charizard for you, please point out any mistakes without any rude remarks.
PS: overswarm, I read your description and I want to point out two mistakes:
A: Charizard's recovery isn't terrible, It is above average (it is definitely above average if falco's average, and is even above average if Falco's isn't average at all)
B: Actually, we do only have a lot of trouble on the top and upper high tiers: We fair well against wolf and destroy Ike, and (outside Meta Knight) at least ONE Pokemon has a shot in the upper tiers. (OK, the argument that if one's good and the other two's bad than it is a counterpick argument applies, but still, we don't have any hard counters [outside Meta Knight, but he was risking ban anyway]).
Mr.E
Smash Lord
Charizard's Up-B has super armor on start-up, let's not fail to mention that. 
Actually, he's the only one of the three with not-crap recovery too.
i.e. Overswarm's synopsis.
Actually, he's the only one of the three with not-crap recovery too.To be honest, I'd almost place him at the pure bottom simply due to the fact that anybody can just plain play run-away for a couple minutes and win via forcing that stupid Stamina mechanic down PT's throat. Individually, all three pokémon are easily better than some of the other "worst" characters (especially Squirtle), it's just that one severe limitation really holding them back. You could replace the pokémon with MK/Snake/Dedede and PT still wouldn't make it past mid-tier because the opponent can just play super-evasive to fight weakened versions of each (and/or set up to punish the switch PT eventually has to make).
i.e. Overswarm's synopsis.
That actually works pretty well on Bowser, I don't know why it doesn't work on Charizard very well.
ROB's BAir is super-effective!
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
This was an awesome discussion. Thanks, PBR! I, like the others, agree with the summary. It was very well written, but switching isn't as ridiculous as mentioned, but it is pretty bad. PT really should've had the ability to switch in the air, it would've been amazing.
So fellow Pokemon Trainers. Where do we go from here? We've seen what the top players in our community think of PT, and I'm surprised that people see potential in PT if a smart player comes along. There's gotta be a way to breakthrough for these guys. Perhaps if we get a better idea of the many matchups in the game, it'll be easier to see where he stands and what secondaries are needed to counter the major threats.
So fellow Pokemon Trainers. Where do we go from here? We've seen what the top players in our community think of PT, and I'm surprised that people see potential in PT if a smart player comes along. There's gotta be a way to breakthrough for these guys. Perhaps if we get a better idea of the many matchups in the game, it'll be easier to see where he stands and what secondaries are needed to counter the major threats.
Natch
Smash Ace
"The lackluster recovery of all three pokémon make their stocks disappear incredibly fast against a watchful opponent."
False. Squirtle and Ivysaur, yes(and it's debatle what exactly "lackluster" means. Depending on that, Squirtle may not have a lackluster recovery). Charizard, no. His sweetspotting range is huge, and Fly is surprisingly good. If Zard's recovery is lackluster, Marth's is too. The Up+Bs are about the same distance wise, except you can aim Charizard's Up+B. Add in an additional jump, the glide, and Zard's recovery is good. Not great, not amazing. Good. It's a good recovey. Also, Charizard is a heavy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ChB5VQ658
Look at 0:45 to see the range of Zard's recovery(It's actually greater than that, and it's bolstered by Zard's sweet spot range). Ignore the fact I sucked more then. This is just to demonstrate the range.
Squirtle is small, very agile, and tough to hit. He's also more of a midweight, and his recovery has that extra range that you'd want on Mario's recovery, and you can aim Squirtles so it's more horizontal or completely vertical. Recovery can probably be considered slightly lacking, if that. It does it's job well enough.
Ivysaur has incredible zoning abilities just by waiting there. Bair, Bullet Seed, Jab, Vine Whip, Dtilt(if Jab is too slow), Ftilt(Alternative to Dtilt), RAZOR LEAF. All of those attacks are incredibly disjointed/a projectile, and cover much of the space around her. She has incredible anti-air zoning, and her ground game is pretty disjointed as well. While she's somewhat easy to gimp(if you miss-time your edgehog, she can razor leaf you just as Olimar can use his Over B, although without detriment to her recovery), if the Ivy has the luxery of saving their second jump, Fair becomes an additional option to stop ledgeguarding attempts. But the point is getting Ivy off stage in the first place. Ivy is designed to be played defensively. It can be very hard to get past those vines of hers.
Change the first statement about lackluster recoveries for all 3. Mention Zard has a good recovery, and being heavy makes him hard to kill. You may want to add in that Squirtle's recovery is like Mario's, but it has that extra range Mario mains would like to have. I can debate Ivy all day, but her recovery is bleh, and only made meh by her Razor Leaf, which due to it's slow nature and huge hitbox, can hit people off the ledge more often than not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uUOwY40r8
Start from 2:22 until the end to see Razor Leaf's ability to hit an opponent off of the ledge. I sucked back then, so ignore the fact I can't get up from the ledge after finally getting there.
False. Squirtle and Ivysaur, yes(and it's debatle what exactly "lackluster" means. Depending on that, Squirtle may not have a lackluster recovery). Charizard, no. His sweetspotting range is huge, and Fly is surprisingly good. If Zard's recovery is lackluster, Marth's is too. The Up+Bs are about the same distance wise, except you can aim Charizard's Up+B. Add in an additional jump, the glide, and Zard's recovery is good. Not great, not amazing. Good. It's a good recovey. Also, Charizard is a heavy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ChB5VQ658
Look at 0:45 to see the range of Zard's recovery(It's actually greater than that, and it's bolstered by Zard's sweet spot range). Ignore the fact I sucked more then. This is just to demonstrate the range.
Squirtle is small, very agile, and tough to hit. He's also more of a midweight, and his recovery has that extra range that you'd want on Mario's recovery, and you can aim Squirtles so it's more horizontal or completely vertical. Recovery can probably be considered slightly lacking, if that. It does it's job well enough.
Ivysaur has incredible zoning abilities just by waiting there. Bair, Bullet Seed, Jab, Vine Whip, Dtilt(if Jab is too slow), Ftilt(Alternative to Dtilt), RAZOR LEAF. All of those attacks are incredibly disjointed/a projectile, and cover much of the space around her. She has incredible anti-air zoning, and her ground game is pretty disjointed as well. While she's somewhat easy to gimp(if you miss-time your edgehog, she can razor leaf you just as Olimar can use his Over B, although without detriment to her recovery), if the Ivy has the luxery of saving their second jump, Fair becomes an additional option to stop ledgeguarding attempts. But the point is getting Ivy off stage in the first place. Ivy is designed to be played defensively. It can be very hard to get past those vines of hers.
Change the first statement about lackluster recoveries for all 3. Mention Zard has a good recovery, and being heavy makes him hard to kill. You may want to add in that Squirtle's recovery is like Mario's, but it has that extra range Mario mains would like to have. I can debate Ivy all day, but her recovery is bleh, and only made meh by her Razor Leaf, which due to it's slow nature and huge hitbox, can hit people off the ledge more often than not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uUOwY40r8
Start from 2:22 until the end to see Razor Leaf's ability to hit an opponent off of the ledge. I sucked back then, so ignore the fact I can't get up from the ledge after finally getting there.
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,568
Maybe I'm missing something here, and I'm just stupid. Don't you have to, you know, knock the opponent off stage in order to gimp first? All 3 have good on-stage game, so unless the opponent is just better than you, your stock shouldn't just "disappear".
mimic_king
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,002
Are you serious? I am going to have to disagree. I say it's the opposite, although I do agree that Ivysaur does have the most potential. But seriously. Charizard best and Squirtle worst? GTFW!!
mimic_king
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,002
Who are you agreeing with? I made the last post, but I didn't talk about any of that.
LOL that's what she said.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Squirtle's d-throw's only purpose it to switch pokeys. It doesn't kill for jack if your opponent knows how to DI (which isn't hard considering it sends ppl at a perfect 45 degree). It might just be me but it won't even kill fresh @ 120%. :<
Squirtle's down-b is his best killing move <3
Squirtle's down-b is his best killing move <3
Speed-wise, Squirtle's the slowest of the three. Charizard should get more grabs than Squirtle for the most part - he has one of the longest non-tether grabs.
Haha, I tend to take people to a high % with Charizard then switch to Squirtle for the D-throw KO :3
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
How is Squirtle slowest? He seems speedier than Ivysaur...
Bleeper Hit
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2008
- Messages
- 53
He means running speed.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I personally think its worse than Olimar's just because Olimar has much better horizontal movement and whistle armor. Razor Leaf can consistently get them off the edge but sometimes it moves pretty slowly and they can time the invincibility right anyways. I get the feeling that Ivysaur does have more tether range than Olimar horizontally, but they're about the same when they're far below the ledge.
I disagree with your statement about the jabs. I personally hate the move because I think the time between the first hit and the second hit is too much. I've been consistently hit out of it by attacks like Dolphin Slash, one-frame jabs, and other moves with similar speeds. But the thing that really aggravates me is that you have to commit to the move if you decide to go any longer than one jab, because Ivysaur automatically hits three more times the second 'A' of the jab combo.
I was under the impression that the switch from Charizard to Squirtle (Switching to Squirtle) was the longest. I agree that the switch from Ivysaur to Charizard (Switching to Charizard) is the shortest. It really puts me in a bad mood when the game takes the really obscene amount of time to switch out Pokemon (The Poke ball just kind of sits there for more than one second) and you get killed when you would have other-wised finished switching before your opponent came back.
I think Overswarm said something about Charizard's bad air game? I will generally agree that his aerial game isn't particularly useful, but I feel that there are a few exceptions at least. I feel that Bair went pretty much ignored throughout the entire discussion. Charizard's Bair is pretty much the main aerial killing move I use with him. The tail-tip sweet-spot is strong and the move itself is pretty fast. Mic said something about range issues, but I've never really experienced that with that particular move. I actually really like it for off-stage use and I find it more reliable than Fair's sometimes annoying hitbox. Also, Uair lasts for an incredibly long time. I've attacked someone who's recently entered air-dodge frames and I've hit them immediately as they come out, but I suppose that doesn’t sound particularly impressive without some frame data.
The biggest problem I have with Ivysaur is the fact that the damage is not spread out evenly among its moves. What I mean is, aside from a few attacks (Bullet Seed, Ftilt, Nair, Fair, to name most of them) Ivysaur's damage output is outright terrible (Bair does 4% fresh, non-fatigued). This often makes Ivysaur play very aggravating because, even if you're doing a great job spacing, you might notice you've put out significantly less damage (Sometimes as high as 30%) than your opponent has done to you. This really makes Ivysaur kind of strange; you need to use little damage output moves to space but you also somehow need to land somewhat situational attacks, such as Bullet Seed. This is a similar phenomena as described by OS about Ivysaur's Usmash and other such attacks. Which, I might add, you probably won't land unless your opponent makes an attack (Or you force them into one).
I think the results of an analysis in the tactical discussion is that Charizard has the longest non-tether grab in the game.
However, I do want to say that I think this has been the best WCD in a a few weeks and for that I'm pretty relieved.
infernovia
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 675
Hey, I didn't know you got upgraded Retro Gaming. Nice.
The biggest problem I have with PT is move decay. Charizard for example has a lot of moves that are great killers, and the same moves deal a lot of damage, and the same moves have amazing properties. And outside of that, they suck. I wanna use dtilt. Dtilt kills. Dtilt sweetspots. Dtilit is fast. Dtilit has range. Dtilt has an ok trajectory. But I can't use it because its one of his better killers. This is the same with upsmash and rocksmash. But outside of his jabgrabs, he really doesn't have moves you can use to rack up damage. For example, G&W's turtle, Metaknights everything. They also have awesome killers. Charizard doesn't have that, IMO. I always need to keep using rocksmash and upsmash.
Oh woops forgot to mention. Charizard's utilt is a good vertical killer. Since you are going to use his usmash a lot in a match, its not really an option.
Squirtle suffers similarly in his aerial options. Also his killers outside of dthrow is pretty bad.
Ivysaur on the otherhand is soooo telegraphed. Besides like 4 moves. Up b is her savior, but also the reason I would never try to use her unless guaranteed death.
The biggest problem I have with PT is move decay. Charizard for example has a lot of moves that are great killers, and the same moves deal a lot of damage, and the same moves have amazing properties. And outside of that, they suck. I wanna use dtilt. Dtilt kills. Dtilt sweetspots. Dtilit is fast. Dtilit has range. Dtilt has an ok trajectory. But I can't use it because its one of his better killers. This is the same with upsmash and rocksmash. But outside of his jabgrabs, he really doesn't have moves you can use to rack up damage. For example, G&W's turtle, Metaknights everything. They also have awesome killers. Charizard doesn't have that, IMO. I always need to keep using rocksmash and upsmash.
Oh woops forgot to mention. Charizard's utilt is a good vertical killer. Since you are going to use his usmash a lot in a match, its not really an option.
Squirtle suffers similarly in his aerial options. Also his killers outside of dthrow is pretty bad.
Ivysaur on the otherhand is soooo telegraphed. Besides like 4 moves. Up b is her savior, but also the reason I would never try to use her unless guaranteed death.
You know you can just fight with fatigue if they are stalling and it's not the end of the world. If you would be beating them without fatigue, you won't be doing that much worse with fatigue, then you can just switch while they're off the stage to kill...or just use a strong attack which ivey and charizard can both do and still kill while fatigued (even squirts d throw is a decent killer while fatigued).
Fatigue isn't a good thing, but it seems like people are more concerned just knowing it exists. It's more of a mental problem than an actual problem.
Fatigue isn't a good thing, but it seems like people are more concerned just knowing it exists. It's more of a mental problem than an actual problem.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
PT isn't as bad as you think he is.
Learn strategic switching, and switching pokemon is no longer a problem, it's only a problem if your a stupid player. Strategic switching can be stage specific, it doesn't always have to be a grab to a throw to switch, you can be safe if you switch pokemon on the moving platform of Smashville.
Ivysaur is the best pokemon when used on stages like Onett, Bridge of Eldin, Yoshi's Island Melee, etc.
Charizard is the best overall, thanks to his useful tilts and amazing Rock Smash, he has can survive very long with great DI while using up-air and fast falling with it when knocked away, Charizard's up-air starts up really quick and is a decent KO move.
Squirtle is the worst of the pokemon, but not by much, he has no range, he is very light and has a bad recovery which is a terrible disadvantage. But his disadvantages feel like they weight equally on his advantages, with such attributes of being very hard to hit, a good combo character, a great aerial game, and the ability to turn invulnerable with side b to get out of a bad spot.
Overall, the pokemon trainers pokemons advantages seem to equate with his disadvantages making him viable for middle tier, since middle tier basically means, a character that has balanced strengths and weaknesses, making PT a balanced character, he's destined for mid tier. All PT pokemon feel middle tier.
Also, fatigue is not an issue. Do you want to know why?
When your pokemon get KOed, they come out fully refreshed. Say like, Charizard gets KOed while fatigued, Squirtle spawns out, you change to Ivysaur, then to Charizard again immediately, Charizard's is fully refreshed, and won't be fatigued for another 2 minutes.
Diminishing returns don't effect PT as much as you think. Multi hit moves like Flamethrower, rock smash, bullet seed, Squirtle's D-air and D-tilt, Ivysaur's f-tilt, since they are multi hit moves, they replenish to max power faster. Also Down+B gets rid of all the diminishing return effects.
As for match ups, its important to understand while Pokemon will do the best for that certain opponent, so you will want to be using that Pokemon the majority of the time.
Now for Surviving... PT has no issues on surviving when playing on stages like Onett, Bridge of Eldin, etc.
You must always switch to Charizard when your at least around 70-100%, it will improve your survivablity a great amount, since Charizard isnt easily gimped like the others and weighs alot more, Charizard can also space defensively at this point and poke with such moves as D-tilt, F-tilt, Flamethrower, and amazing grab range.
The playstyle of each Pokemon:
1. Charizards at his best when he fights on the ground and edgeguards. Don't fight in the air with him, he is mostly disadvantaged there.
2. Ivysaur's at his best when on the ground, spacing, shooting razor leafs, hope your opponent blocks the razorleaf, run up and grab. Ivysaur is terrible at edge guarding and off stage.
3. Squirtle is at his best when he is in the air, his aerial game is superb. Squirtle is disadvantaged when off stage and facing a very defensive opponent that likes to spam projectiles and who never approaches you.
PT is a decent character, he's a well balanced character, his flaws and strengths even out altogether making him destined for somewhere in mid tier. It just takes more time to learn this character than any other, because you have to study in depth of the match ups of all 3 pokemon and understand how they fare against the rest of the cast. If you don't study about the character, your not going to be good at him. He is the most strategic character in the game. I hope you doubters can now understand what I'm talking about now.
Learn strategic switching, and switching pokemon is no longer a problem, it's only a problem if your a stupid player. Strategic switching can be stage specific, it doesn't always have to be a grab to a throw to switch, you can be safe if you switch pokemon on the moving platform of Smashville.
Ivysaur is the best pokemon when used on stages like Onett, Bridge of Eldin, Yoshi's Island Melee, etc.
Charizard is the best overall, thanks to his useful tilts and amazing Rock Smash, he has can survive very long with great DI while using up-air and fast falling with it when knocked away, Charizard's up-air starts up really quick and is a decent KO move.
Squirtle is the worst of the pokemon, but not by much, he has no range, he is very light and has a bad recovery which is a terrible disadvantage. But his disadvantages feel like they weight equally on his advantages, with such attributes of being very hard to hit, a good combo character, a great aerial game, and the ability to turn invulnerable with side b to get out of a bad spot.
Overall, the pokemon trainers pokemons advantages seem to equate with his disadvantages making him viable for middle tier, since middle tier basically means, a character that has balanced strengths and weaknesses, making PT a balanced character, he's destined for mid tier. All PT pokemon feel middle tier.
Also, fatigue is not an issue. Do you want to know why?
When your pokemon get KOed, they come out fully refreshed. Say like, Charizard gets KOed while fatigued, Squirtle spawns out, you change to Ivysaur, then to Charizard again immediately, Charizard's is fully refreshed, and won't be fatigued for another 2 minutes.
Diminishing returns don't effect PT as much as you think. Multi hit moves like Flamethrower, rock smash, bullet seed, Squirtle's D-air and D-tilt, Ivysaur's f-tilt, since they are multi hit moves, they replenish to max power faster. Also Down+B gets rid of all the diminishing return effects.
As for match ups, its important to understand while Pokemon will do the best for that certain opponent, so you will want to be using that Pokemon the majority of the time.
Now for Surviving... PT has no issues on surviving when playing on stages like Onett, Bridge of Eldin, etc.
You must always switch to Charizard when your at least around 70-100%, it will improve your survivablity a great amount, since Charizard isnt easily gimped like the others and weighs alot more, Charizard can also space defensively at this point and poke with such moves as D-tilt, F-tilt, Flamethrower, and amazing grab range.
The playstyle of each Pokemon:
1. Charizards at his best when he fights on the ground and edgeguards. Don't fight in the air with him, he is mostly disadvantaged there.
2. Ivysaur's at his best when on the ground, spacing, shooting razor leafs, hope your opponent blocks the razorleaf, run up and grab. Ivysaur is terrible at edge guarding and off stage.
3. Squirtle is at his best when he is in the air, his aerial game is superb. Squirtle is disadvantaged when off stage and facing a very defensive opponent that likes to spam projectiles and who never approaches you.
PT is a decent character, he's a well balanced character, his flaws and strengths even out altogether making him destined for somewhere in mid tier. It just takes more time to learn this character than any other, because you have to study in depth of the match ups of all 3 pokemon and understand how they fare against the rest of the cast. If you don't study about the character, your not going to be good at him. He is the most strategic character in the game. I hope you doubters can now understand what I'm talking about now.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
I just want to say that I think fatigue is a HUGE deal with Charizard, at least the way I play him. He can play a sort of in-and-out poke game that is based on punishing approaches or baiting attacks. Yeah, he can rack up damage fast, but only when he can land the hits. Good opponents don't have many openings that Charizard can just run up and abuse, so he has to play careful quite a bit of the time. I think he's awesome when played like that, though, and the fatigue system really hinders that sort of playstyle. Which is another huge problem with PT. One of the biggest, in my opinion.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
So.. Samurai Panda.. with all thes Brawl+ stuff and the chance to main only zard... would you do it? How good do you think charizard alone can be??
imo squirtle and charizard alone are both awesome, and great characters.
ivysaur alone is weaksauce, more gimpable than olimar with inferior yet similar grab, projectile, and kill power.
edit if pt players could pause during every switch...lol
ivysaur alone is weaksauce, more gimpable than olimar with inferior yet similar grab, projectile, and kill power.
edit if pt players could pause during every switch...lol
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,568
Itburns' Instant Tether would like to have a word with you...
fatigue is so bad that my squirtle once entered fatigue mode and hid in his shell. he started falling asleep. that's how bad fatigue is. of course, squirtle had shell armor so he didn't take any damage and just bounced around. but still. fatigue makes the pokemon fall asleep. it's like an auto jigglypuff sing that they can't escape.
FATIGUE IS BROKEN
FATIGUE IS BROKEN
mimic_king
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,002
What I do is play with squirtle, switch to ivysaur at 60%, switch to charizard at 120%, and then keep playing charizard till i die. This way, you last longer on the field.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Instant Tether is still kind of risky for Ivysaur. Unless it's done on Corneria's Fin, then no worries. I rather use Razorleaf, d-tilt or jab or whatever to edgeguard opponents with Ivysaur.
And I can't believe people totally ignored my posts about how to get rid of fatigue. My pokemon hardly ever get fatigued.
And I can't believe people totally ignored my posts about how to get rid of fatigue. My pokemon hardly ever get fatigued.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
PT has good potential imo, but it seems like not that many people are really taking advantage of it. However I'm pretty familiar with the character since the best PT i've personally ever seen online or in rl or what resides in my crew. Squirtle is clearly the best of the 3 (i still remember m2k saying squirtle alone with no stamina problem would be top tier lol). charizard is probably second best. however either way all 3 are good. the stamina problem seems to really hold them back. but yea...
squirtle - small, fast, overB helps protect him from damage and knockback, water to help gimp characters, tons of fast aerials low lag that can shield poke a lot, aerial into grab combos, a killing grab, mediocre recovery that is tough to gimp, super wavedash technique, juggling ground moves like utilt
charizard - crazy power, good recovery with multiple jumps and a glide, awesome meteor, super armor attacks, rack up damage with flamethrower, rock smash goes through many attacks
ivysaur - two great projectiles, trap ppl in bullet seed, tether recovery for quick recovery however it also gets gimped, very strong up and forward smashers, decent aerials
all characters are nice, and you have the ability to use all of them in the same match. however the stamina problem with them really hurts
squirtle - small, fast, overB helps protect him from damage and knockback, water to help gimp characters, tons of fast aerials low lag that can shield poke a lot, aerial into grab combos, a killing grab, mediocre recovery that is tough to gimp, super wavedash technique, juggling ground moves like utilt
charizard - crazy power, good recovery with multiple jumps and a glide, awesome meteor, super armor attacks, rack up damage with flamethrower, rock smash goes through many attacks
ivysaur - two great projectiles, trap ppl in bullet seed, tether recovery for quick recovery however it also gets gimped, very strong up and forward smashers, decent aerials
all characters are nice, and you have the ability to use all of them in the same match. however the stamina problem with them really hurts
mimic_king
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,002
Ivysaur has really strong attacks, but he is too slow, which makes him the second best pokemon in PT. He is more of an all-around character actually, but too slow for me.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
I don't think anyone considers Ivy anything but the worst out of the 3 on paper. In practice it really varies trainer to trainer.