mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Weekly Character Discussion: Pokémon Trainer
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
charizard actually has above average air speed. he just has a weakness under him in the air, and kind of in front of him since fair has a strange hitbox. rock smash kind of fixes that problem though.
squirtle just lacks range, is light, has a stupid air release, and can't camp the opponent. big deal, charizard can't camp anyone either, and ivysaur is pretty bad at it for a projectile user.
squirtle just lacks range, is light, has a stupid air release, and can't camp the opponent. big deal, charizard can't camp anyone either, and ivysaur is pretty bad at it for a projectile user.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
Let's go through the list I had for Char but for squirtle.
He does not have high damage output in single moves
He does not have a plethora of kill move options (Usmash, Fair which is always stale same with bair, maybe uair or dair if you get lucky and Dthrow. Fsmash should never be used and Dsmash is pretty crap and Usmash is better in every situation than Dsmash uless your Usmash is staled to crap)
He has tons of decent combo setups, and a few great ones if the opponent is at low-mid percentage (Various throws into aerials, aerials into other aerials and jab combo,)
He has 2 aerial jumps and fairly decent recovery.
He has super armor in 1 attack (Not super armor but the same purpose, however withdraw should never really be used.)
He doesn't lives long (Shouldnt live after 130 in a normal match)
He doesnt have an infinite grab break
He doesnt have decent grab break setups
Deceptive (in a good way) grab range and speed plus an good pummel
He has great offstage options (his aerials are **** and hes floaty)
Great shieldpoke in Dtilt
Did I mention how insanely meh he is on the ground in terms of running speed and attack speed?
Now lets mention the main faults for Squirtle:
He dies at an early percentage, should die before every other char in the game besides Jiggs (especially cuz of Bucket Braking with GaW) however his small hurtbox comes in handy sometimes for avoiding the big hit.
He has problems killing, and this cannot be avoided. If you **** up killing with dthrow or get fatigued you are probably not going to be killing until 160-170 (but you should be changing anyways) Squirtle wants to not be close to his opponent because of his low weight, and yet all of his attacks are short range and require him to be right withing the range of nearly every opponents kill moves.
People don't know about it much but he has a lot of grab release problems, he gets hurt probably about the worst besides the Mother boys and Wario. Couple grab release problems with a light weight and gg...
Squirtle is great when people don't know how to fight against him or when the opponent has no range or speed options. If the opponent outranges squirtle and isnt slow as piss then Squirtle basically becomes unusable. If you don't believe me fight a decent GaW or MK with Squirtle, it's ****.
When talking about which Pokemon is the best all around consider who you will be fighting the most. From my experience you will see:
MK (gg squirtle)
Snake (Squirtle isn't that ****ed here but it isnt great plus utilt = :'()
GaW (GG Squirtle)
Marth (Squirtle is literally unusable here, if marth knows anything about the grab game he can use then Squirtle will be dead at like 70%)
Falco (Free 45% when you already die early = ouch)
D3 (Outranged, outpowered and outweighed)
So thats 6 matches and squirtle has a chance in maybe one of them.
Char on the other hand has more of a chance in all the matches above (even if not by much) except for maybe D3 and even then its not like Squirtle can do anything just because he doesnt get CG'd
Ivy can really work well against Snake and Marth, and Falco can't spike you out of the cg if you meteor cancel vine whip.
So by all means squirtle might be great and even better than the other 2 if you look at every character in the game equally, but where it counts he just isnt as useful as the other 2. He only does exceptional when people don't know the matchup.
Don't take all this negativity as me hating on squirtle or you guys, squirtles actually my favourite of the 3, i'm best with him out of the 3, but i recognize where hes useful and where he isn't.
**** mk yo.
snake can't camp squirtle at all because of water gun, but it's still not good.
gw is very manageable because squirt is one of the few characters quick enough to punish the lag on gw's attacks. he can grab him out of dair for example. sdi out of the turtle is easy since you are light and puts you in a good position to hit him. his smashes are really strong but are very difficult for gw to set up on someone as mobile and small as squirtle without a dthrow. and gw has a really bad grab.
the grab release is really gay with marth, but without that, squirtle would do alright, because he can get inside marth's hitboxes very quickly.
falco loses to squirtle in the air and can't camp squirtle if you don't mind fatigue. squirtle also can mess up falco's recovery with water gun or dair.
squirtle ***** d3. he can't cg you, for one. he is so fat and has big blindspots in front and behind him where ftilt doesn't hit. water gun lols at his super jump. this is squirtle's best matchup in the top tier, and d3 really gets screwed at low to mid percent. at high percent you can't really "combo" or "kill" effectively, so you switch to ivysaur to kill or maybe get a bullet seed and switch again. charizard comes in and finishes the job...and squirtle comes out on the next stock. that's how you beat d3 with pokemon trainer, and it's like...even, overall.
snake can't camp squirtle at all because of water gun, but it's still not good.
gw is very manageable because squirt is one of the few characters quick enough to punish the lag on gw's attacks. he can grab him out of dair for example. sdi out of the turtle is easy since you are light and puts you in a good position to hit him. his smashes are really strong but are very difficult for gw to set up on someone as mobile and small as squirtle without a dthrow. and gw has a really bad grab.
the grab release is really gay with marth, but without that, squirtle would do alright, because he can get inside marth's hitboxes very quickly.
falco loses to squirtle in the air and can't camp squirtle if you don't mind fatigue. squirtle also can mess up falco's recovery with water gun or dair.
squirtle ***** d3. he can't cg you, for one. he is so fat and has big blindspots in front and behind him where ftilt doesn't hit. water gun lols at his super jump. this is squirtle's best matchup in the top tier, and d3 really gets screwed at low to mid percent. at high percent you can't really "combo" or "kill" effectively, so you switch to ivysaur to kill or maybe get a bullet seed and switch again. charizard comes in and finishes the job...and squirtle comes out on the next stock. that's how you beat d3 with pokemon trainer, and it's like...even, overall.
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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How many fixes was that? A billion?
Face it. Nothing will convince me that Charizard is better than Squirtle. C is okay, but S is absolute pwnage.
SmashChamp
Smash Cadet
... I lol'd @ reading topic. squirtle is kick *** man, missed him on the old pokemon series aired on saturday morning cartoons-- wait this is totally off the subject...
/trots out of thread/
/trots out of thread/
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
You cannot honestly believe PT vs D3 is 50/50 :S. Honestly guys I want to be optimistic and have PT be awesome but we need to seriously cut this crap. Who cares if he cant CG squirtle steeler, D3 is the best shieldcamper in the game! If he grabs you he will get the 16% bthrow or he can techchase the downthrow. If you sit back he waddlecamps. You cant approach low because of dtilt, and if u constantly dair for shield pressure it will get punished by various moves or a pivot grab. His 'big blindspot' in front is covered by shielding and grabbing, as well as a reverse bair (which btw will beat your aerials out). Don't get me started on how D3 ***** Ivy and Char...
Onxy
Smash Lord
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Charizard has bad off-screen options? I don't agree with most that you "fixed"....
Onxy
Smash Lord
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mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Squirtle always does great, even if he is nearly dead.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
Well looks like it doesnt matter since there IS a chaingrab.
Ulevo
Smash Master
1) Even with two hits alone, you have enough room to SDI the turtle, and hit him with a Fair. It's really not hard. Anyone experienced in the G&W is able to do this very consistently, regardless of how well G&W spaces.
2) His Fair beating yours is not the only important point to look at. G&W has significantly more commitment on his Fair than Squirtles, and Squirtle has extremely good mobility. G&W cannot reliably use his Fair due to these facts alone, Squritle will simply get inside the range.
3) Squirtle has more than enough options in the air to out maneuver a G&W on the ground. He's very mobile, has access to Withdraw, and all of G&Ws options have large commitment time.
4) You won't die at 90% if you DI correctly.
5) Squirtle cannot camp G&W effectively, this is true. However, G&W cannot camp safely because of commitment. Once he commits to an attack, Squirtle gets a free opportunity to get inside his range and basically do what he wants.
5) You're making assumptions with regards to KO differences between the two characters.
6) Falco does not get a free CG on Squirtle in any sense of the word. Squirtle is very, very difficult to grab. You're using theory craft.
7) Squirtle being light does not provide the end all be all reason for how poor or well he lives. Squirtle survives for very high percents for his weight because it is very hard to land a kill move. Falco struggles with this naturally against most characters--- Squirtle enhances that problem.
8) With Dedede, again, it comes down to commitment. Just because King Dedede has answers to Squirtles approaches does not mean he is fast enough to flux between said options. If you attempt to move in low, and bait him into using a Dtilt, he's officially screwed up and you get inside. The same can be said for any other option of King Dedede's, aside from maybe FTilt and Bair. Squirtle is simply too fast for King Dedede to reliably camp consistently indefinitely. You're thriving on theory craft here.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
Saying squirtle will simply get inside range due to 1 mistake is also theorycraft.
Ulevo
Smash Master
It has nothing to do with making mistakes. It has everything to do with commitment lag. G&W overall has a fare amount of lag after the execution of his moves, barring a few. You claim G&W can out camp and out space Squirtle. The problem with that is that when G&W commits to a move, unless he is too far away or actually hits Squirtle, he risks leaving openings for Squirtle to get inside the range, which is very easy for him to do because of how quick he is, as well as the minimal size of his hurt box.
I'm not making assumptions based on player mistakes. I'm making statements based on character statistics.
go ulevo go!
squirtle is at his best when he's punishing lag because squirtle has nearly 0 on anything but his smashes. gw has plenty of it. squirtle also will wreck characters like d3 if they get popped up into the air, and he's too big to cover all of his weaknesses at once. you just have to correctly pick the right point to attack...
also ivysaur and charizard both have a few tools that help them stay out of d3's grab and still do some damage.
you definitely want to use squirtle for two stocks against dedede though, and bullet seed helps you soooooooooo much in this matchup. it'll make zard's cleanup job a lot easier. at that point, you can just play ultra safe to give squirtle as much of a lead as possible.
squirtle is at his best when he's punishing lag because squirtle has nearly 0 on anything but his smashes. gw has plenty of it. squirtle also will wreck characters like d3 if they get popped up into the air, and he's too big to cover all of his weaknesses at once. you just have to correctly pick the right point to attack...
also ivysaur and charizard both have a few tools that help them stay out of d3's grab and still do some damage.
you definitely want to use squirtle for two stocks against dedede though, and bullet seed helps you soooooooooo much in this matchup. it'll make zard's cleanup job a lot easier. at that point, you can just play ultra safe to give squirtle as much of a lead as possible.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
my bad guys lol im in a really negative PT mood lately =(
I guess you are both right especially because PT is always about mistake capitalization (then again everyone is really)
I guess you are both right especially because PT is always about mistake capitalization (then again everyone is really)
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Squirtle makes everyone happy.
Eljin
Smash Ace
ok here is my 2 cents b4 i go to work... Ivy > Char cuz he stays alive longer 4 sum odd reason
as Squirt use dair alot and dont use CWG so much use UCWG more and throw in a ftilt 4 keep away purposes it works adding damage, and dont use it alot. its more like a "my opponent see's me coming and i know he gonna attack so ima use UCWG to stop him in his tracks" kinda move. Withdrawl use only when coming back to stage other than that dont use it often they hit u and u either slow down or change direction which is stupid imo cuz they can hit u coming out of the shell. I can normally have my squirt out for like 1 - 1:20 M:Sec oh and btw i use squirt's fsmash after sh bair behind their shield it catches often and if not the sheild push and spacing should keep u safe except for grab. PS: MOST IMPORTANT ABOUT SQUIRT THROW 2 JABS AFTER (just about but not... situational) EVERY AUTOCANCELED AERIAL.
Ivy approach with nair and follow with up tilt or the better options ftilt. Razor leaf at safe distance and anticipate their roll (cuz they do that to get into u alot) and WHAM!!! free bullet seed. Grab ur butt off if u can and when u miss grabs bullet seed also cuz they gonna come after u if u miss. LIKE THE THINGS U CAN DO WIT IVY IS OFF DA CHAINS full hop double bair to forward tilts or forward smash.
Char use fsmash as a kill move more mix it with a sidestep or roll dodge it works ... its so good cuz ppl be eff'd up on the next stock thinkin "i actually got hit with that". Flamethrower ppl with projectiles and longer range attacks than char. grab grab and grab more then grab some more. Rcksmsh = 133t. Fly = good kill move but situational.
when playing as PT as all three poket monsters throw in empty sh's all the time never just try and attack attack attack, squirt is prolly the only 1 who can do that then Ivy with some moves the other moves are pretty much 2 laggy and leave u open.
I got way more on how I play and it works just fine. I got mad strats ima b on here later.
and if anyone thinks differently of my strats just post and believe me I got a way to get around it
as Squirt use dair alot and dont use CWG so much use UCWG more and throw in a ftilt 4 keep away purposes it works adding damage, and dont use it alot. its more like a "my opponent see's me coming and i know he gonna attack so ima use UCWG to stop him in his tracks" kinda move. Withdrawl use only when coming back to stage other than that dont use it often they hit u and u either slow down or change direction which is stupid imo cuz they can hit u coming out of the shell. I can normally have my squirt out for like 1 - 1:20 M:Sec oh and btw i use squirt's fsmash after sh bair behind their shield it catches often and if not the sheild push and spacing should keep u safe except for grab. PS: MOST IMPORTANT ABOUT SQUIRT THROW 2 JABS AFTER (just about but not... situational) EVERY AUTOCANCELED AERIAL.
Ivy approach with nair and follow with up tilt or the better options ftilt. Razor leaf at safe distance and anticipate their roll (cuz they do that to get into u alot) and WHAM!!! free bullet seed. Grab ur butt off if u can and when u miss grabs bullet seed also cuz they gonna come after u if u miss. LIKE THE THINGS U CAN DO WIT IVY IS OFF DA CHAINS full hop double bair to forward tilts or forward smash.
Char use fsmash as a kill move more mix it with a sidestep or roll dodge it works ... its so good cuz ppl be eff'd up on the next stock thinkin "i actually got hit with that". Flamethrower ppl with projectiles and longer range attacks than char. grab grab and grab more then grab some more. Rcksmsh = 133t. Fly = good kill move but situational.
when playing as PT as all three poket monsters throw in empty sh's all the time never just try and attack attack attack, squirt is prolly the only 1 who can do that then Ivy with some moves the other moves are pretty much 2 laggy and leave u open.
I got way more on how I play and it works just fine. I got mad strats ima b on here later.
and if anyone thinks differently of my strats just post and believe me I got a way to get around it
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Odd reason? psshh. Here is your fixed post.
Eljin
Smash Ace
Char is good. >_>
all pokemon are good if u use them right, sure Ivy gets gimped like stupid dumb easy but if u kno what to look for then u got it covered.
all pokemon are good if u use them right, sure Ivy gets gimped like stupid dumb easy but if u kno what to look for then u got it covered.
What The ****
don't even try to understand
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Seriously. It would be easier to prove that .9 repeated equals one. It is true, but I don't know how to do it. My friend did it. Calculus is so **** confusing.
Eljin
Smash Ace
suk c0ck if u dnt believe me... >_>
thats my lil contribution to this community
thats my lil contribution to this community
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
Oh my god, Eljin's grammar made me cry and blind at the same time.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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- May 18, 2008
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- 1,638
Simplest way is to just show it algebraically.
x = 0.999…
10x = 9.999…
9x = 9
x = 1
Eljin
Smash Ace
but ur the 1 whos still on my ****... enuff already my **** is getting raw naw u can stop **** eating now!
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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Dude, what the hell.
It's not that we didn't believe you. It's that your post was so confusing.
actually I think it was 2=1. There's a lolpic of it, but it's wrong.
Eljin
Smash Ace
**** Beanie Babies... >_>
random I know considering I just skimmed thru the topic
random I know considering I just skimmed thru the topic
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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yes. truly random.
Blitzmidfielder
Smash Journeyman
Ivysaur's the worst out of the three.
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
Pends what you're talking about. Ivysaur kicks Squirtle's butt.
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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iSpiN
Smash Journeyman
Wow, a mod here created a fail topic and never bothered to close it.
mimic_king
Smash Lord
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yeah, unsticky this
MaTA
Smash Ace
everyone know squirtle is the best...
Ryusuta
Smash Master
You're just saying that because your avatar is so cute.