We need Wavedashing, we must take action to assure it

[Emblem Lord]

SSB64 sucks cuz it's broken even without wavedashing.

Proof that a lack of wavedash does not equal balance. lol.

 

[Dan-E]

^should have said "popular and competitive" fighting game, which it is not. no arguments there really.

SSB64 is one of my favorite games ever. I never said it sucks. At least if I did I didn't mean to. It's just not as deep as melee.

edit- that was towards Yoshi fan

 

[Eggm]

Every character can 0-death every other character, in all matchups in ssb64 as isai displays, so assuming everyone stuck to that and got real good, it would be all about getting the 1st hit which is corny, however it was a really fun game and I enjoyed it, but melee is way better.

 

[yoshi_fan]

He is the best in Melee. >_<

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I know

I'm saying he don't want Wdash out because he take a lot of hours for mastering it...

And he thought brawl was gonna be like melee... and so he was gonna be the number one again.

The higher you go, the more you will hurt when you fall

 

[Darqion]

Being the "best" in melee doesnt give him any idea of how the game will turn out to be.
And respect goes 2 ways. He doesnt know what will happen, what techniques will be found, or even if WDing if it was in, would have the same "depth" as it would have in melee.

Its a WHOLE other game. With that comes a new set of rules, tricks and techniques. the supposed melee pro has to understand that he is only pro in melee, and therefor has no real say about brawl. not now not ever. And get your storys straight..

One minute you guys say "WDing is no big deal, its just something for us pros to play with "
Next minute its "NOO Its the be all and end all of melee, and (strangely) has to be in brawl because of it)

BTw i learned how to effectivly WD in around 2 hours with the characters i liked playing with.. i could be a born natural, or it could be WD is in no way deep when you know how to do it..

 

[freeman123]

This is so stupid. Why can't Brawl be a different game from Melee? If you want to play Melee you still can. I hate when sequels come out and they feel like the exact same game with a few new things thrown in(I'm not saying any names, but it rhymes with Halo 3).

Who cares if wavedashing is back or not? Brawl will have its own glitches and advanced techniques, and after a while you won't even miss the old ones.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

He's not afraid to lose, he's afraid the game won't be fun once people get good at it. Like imagine if every matchup in Melee was like Jigglypuff dittos on Dreamland, no one would want to play it.

 

[Hoboman725]

no you don't.

sums it up pretty well.

 

[Dan-E]

^lol it took you two hours?

noone said wavedashing was hard. it's easy to do... not easy to use effectively which I guarantee you can't.

and geezus people can you not realize that noone said brawl was going to be melee 2.0?? we're just upset that sakurai is obviously dumbing down his game without showing us any alternative to competitive play.

edit - someone deleted their post/edited it. dont' know who.

edit2 - wait there it is again... weird.

 

[Eggm]

Lol, its looking that way since every character seems to have jiggs ariel mobility and fall at the same rate...

 

[Shai Hulud]

I believe the concept of Wavelanding was still in right?

So here's what I've been thinking (maybe others have too, but I'm calling dibs lol). If the airdodge is affected by the character's current momentum, then why can we not put ourselves in to that momentum state to waveland?

For example, If I perform a short hop and immediately slam the direction input towards an angle that is more horizontal than downwards, while at the same time forcing the character to Fast Fall, wouldn't my momentum be down and to the horizontal direction I inputted? Thus my momentum air dodge SHOULD be towards the direction I am landing on the ground. This concept is grasped from Triangle Jumping, and though it may not be like a WD, the concept can still apply and may still be useful.

Granted, it sounds like a lot to do in a SH and may require precise timing, but hey, we play Smash Bros. competitively, we should be able to conquer anything technical lol.

Because people will know exactly where you are going and you will just waveland into my fsmash. And due to the floatiness of the characters the fastest you will be able to fast fall and waveland will be slower than will be useful as anything but an occasional mindgame.

Brawl is ********. And anyone arguing with M2K is ********.

 

[.Yoshi]

And no one closed this thread despite it being another "wavedashing thread" ?....

Why?

 

[Phlemingo]

Well if we develop Ink Dropping enough if could replace wavedashing somewhat.

 

[Israfel]

lol at everyone calling m2k a scrub...only in brawl discussion

QFT. Seriously everyone, M2K is the best at the game, and in all likelihood understands it how it works at a tournament level better than anyone; his opinion is definitely worth listening to. The main point here is that wavedashing adds depth to the game by allowing you more movement and spacing options, which in turn makes the game better. Wavedashing is not the "flashy technique" that only pros do because they're so hardcore. Wavedashing is fairly simple to do after a little bit of practice, and its uses are nearly limitless, from spacing smash attacks, to evasion, to edgehogging, to Falco and Fox's staple combos. The removal of wavedashing takes away from what makes Smash such a great game that can be played over and over again, that it is such a complex game with so many options for every situation, and I am sad to see everyone not think this through and simply just go "oh wow look at this tournament player being upset about wavedashing lolol."

 

[NES n00b]

^lol it took you two hours?

noone said wavedashing was hard. it's easy to do... not easy to use effectively which I guarantee you can't.

and geezus people can you not realize that noone said brawl was going to be melee 2.0?? we're just upset that sakurai is obviously dumbing down his game without showing us any alternative to competitive play.

edit - someone deleted their post/edited it. dont' know who.

edit2 - wait there it is again... weird.

Yes. . . . . . . .

I do not get why people can not understand this.

LOL ihavespaceballs. XD

 

[Gimpyfish62]

no johns m2k

looks like its gonna take m2k another 5 years to be one of the best

thats a shame right there

just keep playing melee, the scene is hardly going to die at all with the release of this game

 

[Izaw]

We dont need wavedashing.

Just because people are USED to do WD in MELEE they want it back.

You know bringing back WD would bring lots of unbalance.

Also this isnt Melee, we're supposed to get a new game, we're supposed to play without WD because its not really a part of what Sakurai wanted.

If you are trully proffesional smasher. You should be able to handle playing without WD.

So I say NO to WD...

 

[creep]

This thread has left me speechless.. I can't even think of a proper reply. M2K is making himself seem like quite the selfish whiner.. :/

I am really glad to see the majority of the community doesn't really care about things changing. :D

 

[Dan-E]

Yes. . . . . . . .

I do not get why people can not understand this.

LOL ihavespaceballs. XD

i don't know if I'm supposed to take your post seriously or not...

edit - those two posts above me just make me want to like... die.

HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT WINNING. geeze. THE REMOVAL OF WAVEDASHING MAKES THE GAME LESS COMPETITIVE AND MORE SUITED FOR YOUR 3 YEAR OLD SISTER. HOW IS THIS NOT A BAD THING???????

 

[Urulok]

I can't imagine playing Brawl without Wavedashing, especially because the better I get, the more I apply and use Wavedashing, instinctively even, and there's a LOT of depth that can be unfolded with Wavedashing still in.

Why should things such as Bowser's Flame Cancel be in Brawl while Wavedashing isn't????

We need this back, we need to all write to Nintendo/Sakurai and tell him that what he's doing is a BIG mistake that needs to be fixed.

I agree with M2K... we need wavedashing .... Some PJs don't need wavedashing, for example Peach.... But, Marth without wavedash ??? Luigi ??? Ice Climbers ??? Fox ??? Falco ??? ....... what are you doing Sakurai ???

 

[bob-e]

Well if we develop Ink Dropping enough if could replace wavedashing somewhat.

The ID ever replace the WD. The beauty of wave dashing is that after you have started, all your movement is simply from sliding. Because sliding doesn't count as an "action" you are free to attack during your brief slide. The problem is that while you're en route with an ID your one available "action" is already running, so in order to do something other than dash attack you have to come to a stop first.

 

[Shai Hulud]

God **** you guys are dumb. It's not that M2K "can't handle it" as he would 4-stock you regardless. THE GAME IS BETTER WITH DEEP TECHNIQUES.

Noone will want to play Brawl except for you morons if there are no deep techniques.

 

[NES n00b]

i don't know if I'm supposed to take your post seriously or not...

I am dead serious. People seem to think that we are worried just about the wavedash itself.

It is the depth I am worried about.

 

[[Deuce]]

if all that mattered if it was fun, then Mario Party would be my favorite game.

it has to be competitive too or it loses a helluva lot of its appeal

qft. seriously.

 

[Eggm]

God **** you guys are dumb. It's not that M2K "can't handle it" as he would 4-stock you regardless. THE GAME IS BETTER WITH DEEP TECHNIQUES.

Noone will want to play Brawl except for you morons if there are no deep techniques.

As bluntly as this guy put it, its my thoughts exactly.. just straight up lol.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Totally agree with this. I've lost a lot of my twich based reflexes so I rely on strategy more so. I have to be cuatious in games like Halo 3 because I just don't have the reflexes any more. But either way I'll try my best.

Thats not exactly what I meant. As someone said above, if you want strategy then you're better off playing Chess. All fighting games are very much twitch games, at least as much as a FPS like Halo. I'm sort of playing devils advocate to my own post here so hear me out. The ability to execute commands with an automatic confidence, allowing you to concentrate completely on strategising and reading your opponents is what makes a good player in fighting games, and these elements need to be in balance to make a good fighter.

Melee works fantastically because it introduces the casual crowd to a fairly execution lite and simple game to play with. Beneath the surface the game introduces to those who want to go to the next level advanced techniques which require much more dedication to do confidently, but enhance your strategic and damage options greatly. It's not intended, but it works.

However, there are other examples of fighting game franchises where adding more strategic elements is necessarily a good thing. Take for example the games SF2: ST, and SF3: TS. The greatest difference between these games is that 3S has the parry system. A TS enthusiast will tell you that parry adds more strategy and terrific for punishing predictability and is a great counter for otherwise very reliable moves. SF2: ST however fans however, didn't like how much it detracted from the zoning games. In ST, there was very little advanced tech at all, and because of much more limited mobility it meant that the strategy was happening before the trading of blows took place by being able to dominate the spacing in the level. This actually happens in every 2D fighter I can think of, but none are as important as ST.

Then you think of godly players like the fabled Daigo who dominated ST, then Alpha, then 3rd Strike and even placed in Guilty Gear... I hope I've made my point clear. Whether the game is more technical or strategy based, the best of the best will always surface as the most skilled and dedicated.

Sorry if I lost people there, but I think because of mobility, execution and speed differences between Melee and Brawl, this means that in all probabilty both games will be played competitively by different people. Those who value the technical will stay melee, those who don't will brawl.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

removing WD won't get rid of it's competitiveness, I'm fine with it being gone, it changes the playstyle a lot, which is what I want from a new game. We don't NEED wavedashing, it's just a lot of people want it. I do hope that they haven't removed stuff like l-cancel and such fully though.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

This thread is made of lol and wtf.

M2K, you are absolutely correct. The lack of WD only hurts the game.

Is there anything we can do about it? No. Nothing. It's out, and that's that. You should start to react to this and stop complaining. Every tear you spend crying over WD could be one bead of weat toward becoming the best in Brawl. Don't waste you time on grief. My suggestion:

- Keep kicking *** at melee, like Dylan_Tnga (who said he wouldn't buy brawl if WD is out)

- Go into 1 year of meditation to untrain your hands to WD, then start developing new techniques in brawl and become the best again.

Really, what matters is whether you have the dedication to pretty much start from scratch and end up ****** everyone again after a few years. If you do, you can say that you became the best through hard work twice. If you don't, well, then you'll always be melees best, but people will forget you sorta, as melee will eventually die and stop being played very much like ssb64. Now, do you want to be famous or forgotten? (Note how I am playing on his ego in a futile attempt to get M2K to start kicking *** in brawl too)

 

[Dan-E]

@ NES NOOB

oh sorry. the dotdotdot after your yes threw me off.

 

[Sir James]

looks like its gonna take m2k another 5 years to be one of the best

LOL...

M2k, you don't need wavedashing. I'm pretty shocked that a pro like you would make such a claim. I can wavedash fine, but honestly I'm not going to miss it. I believe that someone's skills at Brawl should not be measured by muscle memory but by mindgames and playing smart. The competitive Brawl scene is going to be pretty interesting.

And who knows, maybe there will be more advanced techs. Gimpyfish played the game for one day and already found a possible tech. I wouldn't get all whiny over it. Let's just wait until we get the game and just let everything fall into place.

 

[CronoMaster]

why are u people so concerned about wavedashing?? i keep reading a lot about it and u just seem to care a lot about it. im from mexico so that word doesnt even exist here, at first i didnt even know what that was, but i saw a couple of vids on youtube and yes, ive seen it before, but not that much, and is not that great really, ive won a couple of tournaments and so has a friend of mine, and we dont use that at all, of course, here there is not such good competition as in USA, but still

As i said, i saw a vid on youtube, it was a final with appareantly 2 very good smashers, mew2king or something like that, and i dont remember the other guys name, but one was fox, and all he used was wavedashing!! is not even useful most of time!! and dont tell me that it can confuse the enemy or some sh*t like that, all it takes is to get to know the opponent, and thats easy, u can see how they play during the 1st and 2nd lives, and after that u just go after his weak point, u dont need any kind of special techniques or whatever u call them

Now, is it a good thing? is it useful? it seems to be, since most of u care about it, but, is it vital?? no, not at all. i honestly saw the vids with more expectation, and the battles were just like any other battle, theres not a lot of help from wavedashing, in the video i saw that even is affecting foxs performance, and when he stops using it a little he starts winning!

U get my point. Plus, even if u dont agree, c'mon!!! this isnt melee!!!! This is brawl!!! the TC says that he cant imagine playing smash without wavedashing, well, he played smash 64 without it, and brawl will be a different game, so stop complaining

Edit: hahaha just realized that mew2king IS the TC XD

 

[Darqion]

^lol it took you two hours?

noone said wavedashing was hard. it's easy to do... not easy to use effectively which I guarantee you can't.

and geezus people can you not realize that noone said brawl was going to be melee 2.0?? we're just upset that sakurai is obviously dumbing down his game without showing us any alternative to competitive play.

edit - someone deleted their post/edited it. dont' know who.

edit2 - wait there it is again... weird.

2 hours from not knowing about WDing to learning to use it in a couple of ways with my favorite couple of characters. i dont think thats to bad really. And some people do say that it was hard in a sence of using it, not only WHEN to use it. Not that its really that hard to see the use once you get the hang of it.

All id like is to have a few people see the finished game before announcing the game actually is less competative. You cant know now, because its not even to young, its not even out yet

 

[yoshi_fan]

LOL...

M2k, you don't need wavedashing. I'm pretty shocked that a pro like you would make such a claim. I can wavedash fine, but honestly I'm not going to miss it. I believe that someone's skills at Brawl should not be measured by muscle memory but by mindgames and playing smart. The competitive Brawl scene is going to be pretty interesting.

And who knows, maybe there will be more advanced techs. Gimpyfish played the game for one day and already found a possible tech. I wouldn't get all whiny over it. Let's just wait until we get the game and just let everything fall into place.

I think the same. YOu will be good without the sutff they are quitting: there is new stuff

 

[ShortFuse]

I know how you feel, M2k (to a point, i didn't gain fame from my skills). But please realize, we play Marth. WaveDash really unbalances Marth. Nearly everyone is unbalanced and Marth shoots up in tier more because of his reach, disjointed hitbox, speed + long/smooth WaveDash. I love it but it's really unfair for some of my friends who are biased towards...well you should know...Mewtwo or Pikachu. I don't say wavedash has to be out, but Sakurai really wants to balance the game. He doesn't want crappy low tiers and top tier to be so far apart.

There's two ways to do this:
1) with wavedash in mind. That means wavedash will be a big factor. If Marth were to come back and had wavedash it'll probably be like Link's: short and pointless since Marth already has other advantages on his belt (speed, hitbox, range). Trust me, if wavedashing was in, Ike would have a long one to balance it out (as contradictory it sounds). Wavedashing can make speedy characters even speedier and very little to slow characters (Ganondorf, Link, Bowser) The problem is, not everyone will use wavedash and it'll make characters highly unbalanced in terms of casual play if he only caters to us "purists"
2) without wavedash. this is only way to balance both casual and tourney purists. Realize melee is pretty okay balanced at a casual level but when you put wavedash in the equation it really makes Good characters top-tier (Marth, Fox, Falco).

I understand your rant, since you've excelled at this. WaveDashing is an integral part of Marth play. But look at Link. He doesn't really need wavedashing to be competitive (Aniki is the example). Sakurai can follow that example for everyone and make sure everyone has correct advancing options and retreating.

Brawl is not Melee - Wavedash
Brawl is Melee - Wavedash + Necessary tweaking.

Those said tweaks will make it balanced.

 

[Dan-E]

2 hours from not knowing about WDing to learning to use it in a couple of ways with my favorite couple of characters. i dont think thats to bad really. And some people do say that it was hard in a sence of using it, not only WHEN to use it. Not that its really that hard to see the use once you get the hang of it.

All id like is to have a few people see the finished game before announcing the game actually is less competative. You cant know now, because its not even to young, its not even out yet

The fact that Sakurai is intentionally removing things that made melee a deep game speaks volumes about whether or not brawl will be competitive. Think about it... He has more time and more people working for him to try and remove any and everything that advanced players can exploit to their advantage. He's obviously trying to make the game easier to pick up and therefore less competitive.

He's not making things easier to do. He's removing them completely. It should be obvious that he doesn't want a competitive game, and with so much time on his hands I see no reason why this game would be even close to as competitive as melee. When I say brawl won't be as competitive as melee, I am only being logical as that is obviously what Sakurai wants.

Edit - 2 hours to learn how to wavedash is a ridiculously long time to learn how. It consists of pushing two buttons and one direction on the control stick.

 

[shadydentist]

They took out bxr in halo 3...

I guess in a way, it prepared me for the removal of wavedashing.

 

[iMichael]

Really people. IT'S OUT. Deal with it instead of being little babies about it. You ever think that Sakurai meant to take it out? SSB64 works as a competitive game without WDing. Just stop your *****ing and live with it rather then being a bunch of whiny brats.

I agree dude....there's going to be different techniques in Brawl..as we were told "inkdropping" is going to be a new technique....

 

[Hydde]

I can't imagine playing Brawl without Wavedashing, especially because the better I get, the more I apply and use Wavedashing, instinctively even, and there's a LOT of depth that can be unfolded with Wavedashing still in.

Why should things such as Bowser's Flame Cancel be in Brawl while Wavedashing isn't????

We need this back, we need to all write to Nintendo/Sakurai and tell him that what he's doing is a BIG mistake that needs to be fixed.

I feel your pain bro , but its over


we cant do anything at this point.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The fact that Sakurai is intentionally removing things that made melee a deep game speaks volumes about whether or not brawl will be competitive. Think about it... He has more time and more people working for him to try and remove any and everything that advanced players can exploit to their advantage. He's obviously trying to make the game easier to pick up and therefore less competitive.

He's not making things easier to do. He's removing them completely. It should be obvious that he doesn't want a competitive game, and with so much time on his hands I see no reason why this game would be even close to as competitive as melee. When I say brawl won't be as competitive as melee, I am only being logical as that is obviously what Sakurai wants.

Edit - 2 hours to learn how to wavedash is a ridiculously long time to learn how. It consists of pushing two buttons and one direction on the control stick.

Making a game non-competitive just for the sake of it is stupid. He could make it casual and competitive at the same time. Putting in WD would please everyone. It would only result in more copies sold.

 

[yoshi_fan]

God **** you guys are dumb. It's not that M2K "can't handle it" as he would 4-stock you regardless. THE GAME IS BETTER WITH DEEP TECHNIQUES.

Noone will want to play Brawl except for you morons if there are no deep techniques.

Really, pros can get REALLY prepontious(**** this word)

M2K being a pro in MELEE doesn't make his point better because this ISN'T melee, IS BRAWL.

Remember


BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL
BRAWL

You heard it? STOP MAKING ARGUMENT BASED IN MELEE'S STYLE OF PLAY ****

(This goes for a post with a mew in his avatar, who said m2k had to been heared and do what he says (wow, now he is our president o_O) because he was a pro in MELEE -_-)