We need Wavedashing, we must take action to assure it

[Mew2King]

No, you're wrong, during my landing lag I will instinctively press R, and then NOTHING WILL CHANGE

Why would it change, do I get double lag if I try to R-cancel? That's the dumbest thing that could possibly occur. It will be the same if I do or don't R-cancel, so doing it won't affect anything.

 

[Card]

If you're really good at a game, you don't rely on one thing to make you competative, if its gone, then make the adjustment and get better.

What he said as well, read it!

 

[Emblem Lord]

We don't know if l-cancelling is in or if moves have reduced lag.

Remember l-cancelling shaves off half the lag.

So if it's not in and lag hasn't been reduced then you will definitely care about l-cancelling not being in the game.

I honestly don't see how you could have misunderstood me.

 

[Jay Talbayne]

Look, M2K I know i will have the same problem but i know if i play enough... my mind will be like... ok.. i cant wave dash STOP TRYING OR ULL GET OWNED then ill stop ... then when i play melee. ill be like OH SH#$# I CAN WAVE DASH and eventually ill get control of that transition. think of it that way cause melee is still going to be MLG who knows Brawl might be too.

 

[NES n00b]

. . .that adive is so obvious why even bother with it.

I feel that people don't even care about the games anymore really. They look at the name and then they are like "it must be good" and defend any descision to the end.

Urg, of course I will play it but it doesn't look that good so far.

Edit: I am pretty sure the last MLG Melee thing was SSC. Will there be more? I thought there wouldn't be, but I could be wrong.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=140799

This was linked in another part of this forum here, but it is very relevant to execution, the arguments for and against it are quite compelling. Please keep in mind I'm neither for or against wave dashing, just trying to add food for thought.

If you disregard execution, does wave dashing make up such an important part of Smash progressively? What if there was a simple 'wavedash' button that allowed people to use the technique with ease? Then becoming good at Smash revolves around the stategic use of wavedash and skillfully use that to punish and evade. Theres nothing wrong with that, it just seems to me that without wavedash, you require more insight (rather than pure reflex) on what the opponent may do. It will make Brawl much more about positioning and zoning than Melee was. It trades technical skill for strategic skill.

I'm not saying that there won't be problems with the competitive scene if most traces of technical skill are removed, there is clearly going to be a lot more blurred lines between skill level in the middle level of playing (the majority) think of the bell curve. If people believe that technical skill is more deserving to define top players then thats another train of thought and I'm fine with that. All I want to emphasize is that it's still going to be the most experienced and dedicated players that will stay at the top.

edit: Clarified my stance a bit.

 

[Wiseguy]

People, people. If you read some of the impressions for the demo you'll notice that players have already uncovered several NEW advanced techniques. Imagine what we'll discover once we really get some quality time with the title.

So with all due respect, suck it up princess.

 

[YOSHIDO]

awww. Cmon man just let it go. Wavedsashins cool. But it was an glitch that wasnt saposed to be. It made things alot faster. I dont think smash will suck with out it. Shoot we can still have fun and competitve matches.

 

[Andrew Ott]

Not everyone realizes this, but most tournament level play is based on muscle memory, so that actually IS quite important for us GC controller users.

Yeah, it's kind of dissapointing everything was changed, and it'll take some getting used to, but I'll be laughing if M2K finds a whole bunch of new techniques after release. XD I guess it'll still be pretty hard to play Melee and play Brawl off and on, but I hope people still play Melee later.

Also M2K, according to Gimpy, you can pivot long after after the initial dash animation for smashes/grabs (I think), so maybe dash dancing will become that much more useful. We'll just have to see.

Hope to play you on Wifi sometime.

 

[Kimosabae]

I don't care what you think @ Synikal, while I might have been exaggerating I'm trying to stress the point that WDing brings a lot of high level gameplay elements and that not having them will make this game worse.

This is extremely important to me I don't want it to be out, I wish someone would do something to let it be in.

Look, I don't know if you actually remember me, but I'm easily one of the more technical players out there. I Wavedash , Waveland, Platform Dash, Ledge Dash -- and every variant between those like a freak. Even with that approach to Melee, I'm mature enough to step back and look at this new game with fresh perspective. There will undoubtedly be new techniques unearthed that contribute to the game's depth -- whether the game will reach Melee's level of complexity is a whole nother' topic all together.

You make it sound as though Wavedashing was the absolute crux of Melee's high level play, and coming from a player of your caliber, that's a bit...disconcerting. Calm the fvck down.


-Syn

 

[Jay Talbayne]

. . .that adive is so obvious why even bother with it.

I feel that people don't even care about the games anymore really. They look at the name and then they are like "it must be good" and defend any descision to the end.

Urg, of course I will play it but it doesn't look that good so far.

Edit: I am pretty sure the last MLG Melee thing was SSC. Will there be more? I thought there wouldn't be, but I could be wrong.

Yea you right.. who knows Brawl could suck.... i doubt it..... but its possible

 

[Jay Talbayne]

People, people. If you read some of the impressions for the demo you'll notice that players have already uncovered several NEW advanced techniques. Imagine what we'll discover once we really get some quality time with the title.

So with all due respect, suck it up princess.

again... what he said ^

 

[AthrunZala]

i love how everyone bashes m2k when he is correct in what he is saying. how can you argue that wd doesnt give the game more depth and doesnt make competitive play better.

 

[Kelexo]

AhahahahahahahaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

Wahahahahahhaahahahah

This is exactly why I wanted Wavedashing out. You guys act so pathetic over it. It's hillarious.

It's a new game. Don't worry though, because I am 100% sure there will be more glitches to exploit in Brawl. Trust me, there will be one.

 

[Dave the Perspicacious]

This seems to be more of an unwillingnesss to change. It seems rather unlikely that someone could be so simple minded and foolish.

I honestly couldn't care less about the depth argument for any of you that choose to bring it up in response to this post. That remains to be seen regardless whether it is true or not.


I'm afraid the solution is, that you will have to continue playing melee and find others to do so with.

Otherwise learn to adapt and change, treat Brawl as a new game, and learn all over again, which is what I certainly look forward to ^_^

Good luck for whatever path you wish to choose. Do both if it suits you...

Dave

 

[Jay Talbayne]

i love how everyone bashes m2k when he is correct in what he is saying. how can you argue that wd doesnt give the game more depth and doesnt make competitive play better.

I see where M2K is coming from and it may hinder the games competitive element a little.. but COME ON ITS A FRICKIN FIGHTING GAME its competitive. either you beat some ones *** or get your *** beat.

 

[Red_Maniac]

I for one don't really care for wavedashing.

When Brawl comes out, you'll find a bunch of new techniques and won't even care about WDing anymore.

 

[Zhilo]

Wheter Wavedashing would make the game better or not, your thinkng that you will never get used to not having it and will be the worst player in the history of Brawl is wrong. Human intelect just doesn't work that way. You will probably suck for a couple weeks, a month at most, but you will inevitably adapt, and figure out new advanced techs, and ways to abuse the fact that your oponent doesnt have WD either.

It bothers many of us to have to say goodbye to the style of playing we are used to, i'm sure, but it's a whole new game, and we will find our fun on it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Taking out WDing was pointless though. Sakurai is dumb. Dedicated players will ALWAYS break the game and own everyone that doesn't play the game as seriously as they do.

 

[Dan-E]

For all the people that are saying "if you were good at this game you should..." are you honestly trying to imply that M2K isn't good at melee?

game balance has nothing to do with removing wavedashing. wavedashing isn't a gamebreaking technique. it's more of a mindgame than anything else.

what M2K is most upset about, as well as the rest of the competitive smash community is the purposeful removal of depth to this game. so far the only things that they left in that made competitive play what it is is DD and short hopping which were pretty much the two easiest things to pick up technically. sakurai is dumbing his game down, and without a larger technical skill line drawn between the pros and the noobs then this game will go the way of N64 smash. Fun, but unrecognized as a real fighting game.

Still it's only Day 1 (day 2 now i guess) of the demo so we'll see. Gimpyfish's impressions gave me back some of my hope. especially the weird dash cancelling or whatever it was. I'm just praying to God that Sakurai gave us back more than what he took out.

 

[NES n00b]

I for one don't really care for wavedashing.

When Brawl comes out, you'll find a bunch of new techniques and won't even care about WDing anymore.

There will be techniques obviously but will they be as good? How do we know?

 

[voittaa711]

I would gladly wait until the summer to play Brawl if it meant that wavedashing was in.

...but, I am at the acceptance stage. I don't really mind if wavedashing is not in. Like someone on this thread said, THIS GAME WILL HAVE NEW TECHNIQUES FOR US TO MASTER.

 

[NES n00b]

I would gladly wait until the summer to play Brawl if it meant that wavedashing was in.

...but, I am at the acceptance stage. I don't really mind if wavedashing is not in. Like someone on this thread said, THIS GAME WILL HAVE NEW TECHNIQUES FOR US TO MASTER.

I wouldn't mind if he didn't take out pretty much everything else, too.

Guess what? He did.

 

[GOTM]

the game is already in final development. its not going to change wether we like it or not....

we have to deal with it. apparantly the people that have played it so far really enjoy it, and thats really all that matters is that its fun. wavedashing is not the only difference between pros and noobs. we'll find other things...and experience is the main difference

 

[Dan-E]

if all that mattered if it was fun, then Mario Party would be my favorite game.

it has to be competitive too or it loses a helluva lot of its appeal

 

[Mambo]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=140799

This was linked in another part of this forum here, but it is very relevant to execution. If you disregard execution, does wave dashing make up such an important part of Smash progressively? What if there was a simple 'wavedash' button that allowed people to use the technique with ease. Then becoming good at Smash revolves around the stategic use of wavedash and skillfully use that to punish and evade. Theres nothing wrong with that, it just seems to me that without wavedash, you require more insight (rather than pure reflex) on what the opponent may do. It will make Brawl much more about positioning and zoning than Melee was.

I'm not saying that there won't be problems with the competitive scene if most traces of technical skill are removed, there is clearly going to be a lot more blurred lines between skill level in the middle level of playing (the majority) think of the bell curve. If people believe that technical skill is more deserving to define top players then thats another train of thought and I'm fine with that. All I want to emphasize is that it's still going to be the most experienced and dedicated players that will stay at the top.

Totally agree with this. I've lost a lot of my twich based reflexes so I rely on strategy more so. I have to be cuatious in games like Halo 3 because I just don't have the reflexes any more. But either way I'll try my best.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

edit: Oops, double post.

 

[yoshi_fan]

It's such a bad decision, I doubt he spent a year thinking of it, he is MAKING A BIG MISTAKE.

WAVEDASHING ADDS A LOT OF -- DEPTH --

-- DEPTH -- is GOOD

If noobs don't like it, you don't have to use it, let the pros be using it at tourneys at least.

Otherwise we are all gonna just DD camp.

L-cancelling (R-cancelling too) I don't care because I'll instinctively do that and then nothing will change, but if I instinctively do WD then I'll just air dodge upwards and lag a lot. I also think WDing is a lot more important than L-cancelling since the timing for different aerials differs and the actual pressing L or R isn't a big deal at all to do.



EDIT - I am definitely not being sarcastic at all

Ok so you are the (my new term)

A Wdashscrub

Sincerely M2K, what you think is good, is being an elitist, prepontous (or whatever it¡'s syed) and senseless.

Answer this question: Are you afraid of lossing all your potential trained by years because of the loss of wavedahsing or not?

Anyways, nobody makes you play brawl compulsory. If you dont like it, dont play it, like you pros said to the scrub (i'm not one of them) when they didnt want Wdash... so you are now a scrub (this makes sense mwahahah)

 

[GOTM]

if all that mattered if it was fun, then Mario Party would be my favorite game.

it has to be competitive too or it loses a helluva lot of its appeal

mario party is fun for a little while but then gets boring. i mean fun forever

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

BAAAAAAAAWWWWWW I CAN'T USE MY OLD STRATEGIES ANYMORE SAKURAI WON'T CATER TO ME ANYMORE BAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWW

That's what this sounds like to me.

 

[Zhilo]

Thinking about what Mambo said, I think they are trying to make Brawl less about reflexes, and more about mindgames. I believe outsmarting your oponent will be the key factor in brawl's competitive scene, far over the technical aspects of the game.

 

[NES n00b]

Ok so you are the (my new term)

A Wdashscrub

Sincerely M2K, what you think is good, is being an elitist, prepontous (or whatever it¡'s syed) and senseless.

Answer this question: Are you afraid of lossing all your potential trained by years because of the loss of wavedahsing or not?

Anyways, nobody makes you play brawl compulsory. If you dont like it, dont play it, like you pros said to the scrub (i'm not one of them) when they didnt want Wdash... so you are now a scrub (this makes sense mwahahah)

He is the best in Melee. >_<

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Gilgamesh]

I'm afraid the solution is, that you will have to continue playing melee and find others to do so with.


Dave

This pretty much sums it all up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, you guys need to have a little more respect.

Mew2king is one of the top players in melee in the world and the best on the east coast of the U.S.

Is he acting foolish? Yes.

But please show some respect. Calling him a scrub is just..ugh.

It doesn't even sound right.

 

[Kimosabae]

Thinking about what Mambo said, I think they are trying to make Brawl less about reflexes, and more about mindgames. I believe outsmarting your oponent will be the key factor in brawl's competitive scene, far over the technical aspects of the game.

In that sense, the game wouldn't be any different at all from Melee, further pillaring positions held by competitive Melee players. Most simply don't see a valid reason for WDing's excision in the first place.


-SynikaL

 

[slikvik]

lol at everyone calling m2k a scrub...only in brawl discussion

 

[Eggm]

Lol, m2k is the best in melee cause he had more dedication than any other player, and dedication is most important, not what techniques are in the game, hes still going to be one of the best in brawl if he decides to dedicate himself to it the way he did with melee. All you people who think since advanced techniques are out your going to be players like m2k are sorely mistaken, hes still going to be playing while your sleeping eating and don't anything other than playing brawl.

 

[Dan-E]

the only way a game can be fun forever is if it's competitive. give me an example of a game that has reached the popularity of Halo/SSBM without being seriously competitive (excluding 1 player games)

Edit - ^^^ if there are no advanced techniques/advanced techniques that aren't really advanced (as appears to be the case with brawl), then it doesn't really matter how much you play the game because someone can just learn the skill in a matter of hours. techniques in a fighting game DEFINE the game and whether it's good or not.

 

[Hakuri]

The lack of wavedashing doesn't really bother me that much. But no directional air-dodging is really bad. I loved using my air-dodge as a third jump. Unlimited aerial dodges aren't even useful if you can't change your direction/momentum. You'll just basically be in the same spot to be attacked again. Hopefully that's just the demo, cuz if not the game is looking like serious crap. Sucks, because I was actually looking forward to this one, but I'm not going to support the game if they gimped the hell out of it for grandpa and grandma. But yea, that's just my opinion, and there's lots of good games coming out before the end of the year so I'll be fine, I just hope Nintendo releases a Brawl musical CD in case I don't buy the game.

 

[yoshi_fan]

For all the people that are saying "if you were good at this game you should..." are you honestly trying to imply that M2K isn't good at melee?

game balance has nothing to do with removing wavedashing. wavedashing isn't a gamebreaking technique. it's more of a mindgame than anything else.

what M2K is most upset about, as well as the rest of the competitive smash community is the purposeful removal of depth to this game. so far the only things that they left in that made competitive play what it is is DD and short hopping which were pretty much the two easiest things to pick up technically. sakurai is dumbing his game down, and without a larger technical skill line drawn between the pros and the noobs then this game will go the way of N64 smash. Fun, but unrecognized as a real fighting game.

Still it's only Day 1 (day 2 now i guess) of the demo so we'll see. Gimpyfish's impressions gave me back some of my hope. especially the weird dash cancelling or whatever it was. I'm just praying to God that Sakurai gave us back more than what he took out.

Disagree, smash 64 is a real fighting game... without wavedashing.

But ssb4 doesn't suck, that is your error (i'm talking about all who said ssb64 sucks becaue it hasn't have depth)