[WA] Perth Smash Thread

[Vlade]

I'll see what I can do Mic ^_^

Can't guarantee there will be a steelix plushie in the yokohama pokecentre though, but if there isn't I'll see if I can go to Osaka

 

[Bsrk_]

Geez I'm a fulltine student who works every night of the week and now I have to supply the facts_ Theyll appear when I get time to gather them_

On the short_ Luigis Mansion has a write up of all te numerous exploitations available there_ I never elieved it at first until I read this information and it is all viable_ You can test it out yourself_

I had numerous discussions with Vlade about Norfair as you are all aware I was an advocate for keeping it_ There are two issues aboutthis stage_ The first is the randomness factor of the fire spurts or whatever you call them hitting on stage_ Now unlike the other 2 which give you sufficient time and warning to avoid them, these do not and merely appear, catching people off guard and costing lives unfairly_

Randomness is a large issue in conpetitive play and I will discuss this later_

To continue with Norfair, the second is edge stalling_ Its not jus MK who can do this and it actively promotes stalling and or camping, which for purposes of competitive play you would like to avoid as much as possible unless you really want to lose numbers and active participants_

As Jesse indicated, although the Perth scene is not selfish enough to abuse such factors, the truth is that they exist and can be abused_ Someone will abse it down the track and prove a point or we would wait till te easterners cone over and prove it to us_ The fact is when it cones to winning sometimes you will do anything_ The slight factor of randomness also affects the stages viability overall to be allowed_

On the subject of randomness let's look at other stages with random elements_ Halberd has elements that can be described as random, although these give suffiient time and warning to otherwise be deemed managable and avoidable_ In contrast to Norfair which immediately spurts fire at you with no warning or time to avoid it, Halberds random elements are not deemed to break the stage or create large issues for players in general_

Let's look at Port Town_ The base of the stage in some transformations have cars running by rapidly_ These cars kill at extremely low percents and are thus seen as too random and volatile an element to allow_ You could argue and say to stay on the platforms although it's not that simple_ Some characters are capable of creating a wall and could effectively force another into a situation where they must land on the racing strip, leaving them vulnerable to a potential stage kill_

Kills are mean to be controlled so that it is the player who is responsible for stock losses, not the stage_ An element that creates a high possibilty without sufficient warning or time to avoid is seen as unviable for the stage and players on it_ I can say for all of you that you would not appreciate being killed by the stage and bot your opponent_ On Halberd you blame stupidity for not following the warning signs, on Norfair you abuse the stage because you had no warning_ Its a random element that creates an unfair component to a game that is attempting to be as fair, unbiased and conpetitive as possible_

New Pork isn't allowed due to sheer scale which promotes camping_ Again this is an unacceptable issue as matches will be forcibly dragged out by characters who are capable offoing so_

As stated earlier by Jesse_ As a community we should be promoting growth_ By introudcing stages that can be abused or hold random elements that can be deemed as unfair, we are only forcing players to eventually take a path that promotes further abuse_ I could bet that if we still kept mostly flat stages then we would see an increased number of players who benefit on them_ Once you incorporate stages that have a definite advantage towards one or a handfull of characters, then chance are you will begin to see them more often purely due to tactical advantage_

I'll look up some facts in my spare time if I ever get any and will present them to you_ Excuse my dodgy spelling I'm postin from my phone_

 

[cHeWe]

how many people do we reckon we will get at petes? i can go but i will need to change my shift at work, so need 2 see if its worth the hassle

also glenn will def come cos of the holidays

actually is pete south or north? if its ages away i dont know if i can be bothered driving lol

 

[Trillest]

imo with stages
Distant planet: Can actually be competitive
Norfair: as much as i love her and i do its toooo broken
Port Town: NO!play it get killed by a car at 50% standing on a platform or play any1 with a tether/poor recovery
Luigi's mansion: I am 50/50 on this one
Green Greens:again 50/50
Jungle Japes: i know its counter but it ****s the cp system for falco( i ban jj let go 2 fd yay i win)
Hanenbow: **** off
Ps2onveyor belts and low gravity are redonkulas
Pipes(yoshi island melee): promoting 2 min matches is win its the same as corneria(dont care bout the chain grab stuff)

just my thoughts from playing them all this morning + previous experience

 

[Muzga]

how many people do we reckon we will get at petes? i can go but i will need to change my shift at work, so need 2 see if its worth the hassle

also glenn will def come cos of the holidays

actually is pete south or north? if its ages away i dont know if i can be bothered driving lol

Yeah peats a southie

 

[MTGod]

Pete's house is pretty literally a few streets away from my house... 2 minute drive approx ???

 

[cHeWe]

ahhhh sweet well looks like me and glenn will come then, are we having only singles i didnt see anything about doubles on there? which is fine with me because i will probs have 2 leave at around 3 at the very latest anyway lol

 

[Mic_128]

I'll see what I can do Mic ^_^

Can't guarantee there will be a steelix plushie in the yokohama pokecentre though, but if there isn't I'll see if I can go to Osaka

If they don't have him at the one near you, ask them if it actually exists. Don't want you trecking around the whole of Japan if they never were made.

I had numerous discussions with Vlade about Norfair as you are all aware I was an advocate for keeping it_ There are two issues aboutthis stage_ The first is the randomness factor of the fire spurts or whatever you call them hitting on stage_ Now unlike the other 2 which give you sufficient time and warning to avoid them, these do not and merely appear, catching people off guard and costing lives unfairly_

You have about 2 seconds to deal with it, which is more than you do for pictochat. You can't not see them and they're easy enough to shield, dodge or just get out of the way. If someone hits you into it, that's good usage of the stage.

To continue with Norfair, the second is edge stalling_ Its not jus MK who can do this and it actively promotes stalling and or camping, which for purposes of competitive play you would like to avoid as much as possible unless you really want to lose numbers and active participants_

Except that the lava walls make this a lot harder to do. You can't constantly camp one side, not to mention the times you get a wall AND a rise from the floor. Try and stall in that. With things like that, it's not much worse than smashvile.

In contrast to Norfair which immediately spurts fire at you with no warning or time to avoid it,

You can see it coming 2 seconds away and deal with it easy. Don't try and airdodge in place though as you'll get owned.

Now that phazonfir texture with the invisible plumes.... <.<;

New Pork isn't allowed due to sheer scale which promotes camping_ Again this is an unacceptable issue as matches will be forcibly dragged out by characters who are capable offoing so_

Who mentioned New Pork?

As stated earlier by Jesse_ As a community we should be promoting growth_ By introudcing stages that can be abused or hold random elements that can be deemed as unfair, we are only forcing players to eventually take a path that promotes further abuse_ I could bet that if we still kept mostly flat stages then we would see an increased number of players who benefit on them_

I would have thought that allowing more stages, giving more characters viable counterpicks does nothing BUT promote growth.

It also promotes growth in the area of stage knowledge. A lot of people when CP'd on a stage they don't play on, lose due to lack of stage knowledge and blame the stage.

I'm going to be expecting a lot of people complaining and blaming Green Greens for losing when they're stupidly jumping around where the blocks fall/hugging edges near bomb blocks.

i
Ps2onveyor belts and low gravity are redonkulas

Shame that being ridiculous isn't a ban criteria. Otherwise half the stages would be gone

 

[Pete278]

I also want to point out something that most people are ignoring: promoting camping isn't a reason to ban a stage. Camping isn't the devil, or even a negative aspect of a game, its just simply a different playstyle. Plus, if promoting camping were bad and bannable, you'd be playing a different game.

 

[Trillest]

Shame that being ridiculous isn't a ban criteria. Otherwise half the stages would be gone

REDONKULAS get it right

also the characters your making "viable" with these cp's are already viable falco,ddd,mk your only hurting the character that cant cope with camping planking and have mediocre to poor recoveries

If a mk falco or ddd win the starter in a 3 set match they win unless they get extremely outplayed skill wise

also Pete whhy are you making comparison's to competitive fighting games to back up your arguements "brawl isn't a competitive fighting game its a competitive platformer"

 

[Marteh]

I had numerous discussions with Vlade about Norfair as you are all aware I was an advocate for keeping it_ There are two issues aboutthis stage_ The first is the randomness factor of the fire spurts or whatever you call them hitting on stage_ Now unlike the other 2 which give you sufficient time and warning to avoid them, these do not and merely appear, catching people off guard and costing lives unfairly_

Norfair gives you warning, if you cant react and pull up a sheild or abuse ledge super armor with about 2 secs warning, you should go back to chess. Nothing about the stages obstacles are unfair unless me and mic get back the invisible fire texture.

As for circle camping Alister has proven to me how it can be done with anyone, heck he did it with Falcon. And despite it annoyed me I did get around it, the main issue with Norfair is do we wish to have people running for 3 minutes to win a match?

Let's look at Port Town_ The base of the stage in some transformations have cars running by rapidly_ These cars kill at extremely low percents and are thus seen as too random and volatile an element to allow_ You could argue and say to stay on the platforms although it's not that simple_ Some characters are capable of creating a wall and could effectively force another into a situation where they must land on the racing strip, leaving them vulnerable to a potential stage kill_

Once again this is where Im undecided, although the cars have large killing potential and not much warning, the cars only appear at specific areas and you can avoid them. As for making a wall to force people to get killed, isnt that using what the character has and using it with the stage to give you an advantage, thus a cp. Isnt metaknight jumping off a stage and using dair when your recovering using what he has on said stage to get a kill. Or G+W bucketing Ness/Lucas PK thunder to gimp their recovery forcing them into a position where they can do that.

To me it's the same thing, either way Im still not sure if it should be legal :/

Edit: On a different note, Mr. Trillest, I feel I should point out the incorrect "your" is used in your sig as it should be "you're"

 

[Bsrk_]

You are not taking into consideration that during those 2 seconds of warning you could be doing something else (ie, special move, recovery, avoiding attacks, being harrased by your opponent/ vice versa) Some of which would take 2 seconds to a)complete said movement/attack/recovery and b) attempt to react to the lava which may already be active if your movements take longer than 2 seconds_

In theory 2 seconds is fine but in reality there is more that could potentially be occurring that would take longer than 2 seconds_ Mic in all the time we have had both Pictochat and Norfair active, how many times would you say the stage was to blame for stock losses_? I can easily say that Norfair was the more frequent of the 2_ You can argue that popularity also increases the consistency of stage deaths but in reality it has more damage potential and constant events that are comparatively more dangerous than Pitcochat_

Sure Norfair can alternatively stop circle stalling momentarily but again reality is it doesn't stop it permanently_ Pete how does camping affect the game_? If it becomes to campy then no-one plays, scene doesn't expand, no scene growth no player growth, scene dies slowly or just stays at a low number constantly_ We are trying to make the Brawl scene in general larger, and by promoting or further allowing camping we are further distancing new players and potential scene growth_

JJ is banned because it allowed Falco a *******ly CP over everyone_ Although Vlade *cough* is the only real Falco main in the scene, i'm sure you are starting to see people slowly climb the tier list onto characters that potentially create issues stage wise_

I can agree with more viable CP Mic i can_ I was very keen on getting a larger starter stage for balancing issues_ I can understand that CP stages need some balance but previously had no issues with it as it stood and could understand why others where banned or not used_ Yeah it's understood that people should learn how to CP and how to ban/ stage strike that's fairly common sense that takes time and growth_ If we put stages in place that stunt growth or force players into a certain mind frame then we are not creating balance and we are forcing people away_

Norfair is on the fine line but i'm againsty it being a CP personally after my talks with Vlade_ Port Town should be a fairly obvious no no_ Also Marteh, some characters have poor recovery options and will be easily abused or forced upon them with this stage_ If there were no cars and the possibility of an instant stock loss then i would argue for, but the cars make it a definite no for me_

I know too little about Green Greens to make comment and i am against Luigi's mansion after my reading of all things possible and abusable on it_ As mentioned before i have to dig it up when i get time unless Luke has it bookmarked away and wants to throw it out there_

 

[Trillest]

i quote it how he said it

 

[True Romance]

If a mk falco or ddd win the starter in a 3 set match they win unless they get extremely outplayed skill wise

LoL, no. IMO every one should just go to Pete's tourney and the play it out. If it ends up being a debacle we'll know for next time. I personally think the proposed stage list is bad, but it wouldn't stop me from playing and having fun.

And I know this is back tracking a bit, but Bob, saying some one plays with a false sense of honour isn't really an insult lol, chillax!

I definitely can't make the three day awesome fest

Have fun though guys.

 

[Trillest]

ddd green green's ? low ceiling walls to infinite off falco gets japes or fd and mk gets well tbh mk gets a lot you even said it yourself

 

[Mic_128]

REDONKULAS get it right

also the characters your making "viable" with these cp's are already viable falco,ddd,mk your only hurting the character that cant cope with camping planking and have mediocre to poor recoveries

Which is ironic as Green Greens is reportedly a good anti-meta stage, Norfair is a big boost for those who use tether recoveries who usually get boned pretty bad, and....I cant remember what the other stage we were arguing about.

You are not taking into consideration that during those 2 seconds of warning you could be doing something else (ie, special move, recovery, avoiding attacks, being harrased by your opponent/ vice versa) Some of which would take 2 seconds to a)complete said movement/attack/recovery and b) attempt to react to the lava which may already be active if your movements take longer than 2 seconds_

Who said I wasn't? Just like picto you have to be aware of these things. And if you get combo'd into it, congrats to the guy doing the comboing. Also, super impressed iif he manages not to get hit into it himself. Personally if I was comboing and I saw that coming I would just let the opponent dodge it rather than go for an attack and end up getting hit by it myself.

Fact is, it's able to be dealt with. Just improve your reaction time.

Mic in all the time we have had both Pictochat and Norfair active, how many times would you say the stage was to blame for stock losses_?

I can't speak for norfair as I don't think I've ever CP'd there, but only once have I lost due to the stage in picto when it transformed into

and I was Ike. Had I been paying attention to the time between transformations I would have recovered from above using side-b, instead of going low for up-b and having the stage change when I got low.

Sure Norfair can alternatively stop circle stalling momentarily but again reality is it doesn't stop it permanently_ Pete how does camping affect the game_? If it becomes to campy then no-one plays, scene doesn't expand, no scene growth no player growth, scene dies slowly or just stays at a low number constantly_ We are trying to make the Brawl scene in general larger, and by promoting or further allowing camping we are further distancing new players and potential scene growth_

Then you're up for banning Smashville? The stage really promotes camping.

i'm sure you are starting to see people slowly climb the tier list onto characters that potentially create issues stage wise_

Being that a number of good low tier counterpick stages are banned?

If we put stages in place that stunt growth or force players into a certain mind frame then we are not creating balance and we are forcing people away_

Thing is, that's what's happened already. Most stages used by everyone were flat ones, which didn't create balance, forced people away and stunted growth.

How can we 'stunt' growth by adding more options?

 

[True Romance]

ddd green green's ? low ceiling walls to infinite off falco gets japes or fd and mk gets well tbh mk gets a lot you even said it yourself

Notice I bolded D3. Was only referring to him. Green greens is not insta win for D3 at all. D3 is not that good of a character for any stage to be isnta win for him against S/A tierers.

Edit - Green Greens is undoubtedly one of the big penguins best stages, but there's a reason he's plummeted in the tier list. His only insta win opputunites in a set is if your opponent plays DK or Bowser lol.

 

[luke_atyeo]

wow, I gave up trying to read everyones opinions, heres mine

green greens: camping or not, the blocks break the stage, now you can be ******** like mic and argue that you just dont stand there, or you can be normal and realise that you have to move through there to get around the stage, and your going to be getting hit through that area often, and you'd be suprised how many times you'll get hit into a bomb block and die, or get hit into a normal block at high percent causing you to lose momentum and live from an otherwise garenteed ko. also the apples are an issue, if you need me to explain why then I'm going to be very dissapointed. (also not sure why you think its a good anti meta stage)

norfair, lots of fun broken strats, the lava adds a level of random chance that can unfairly sway matches (much more so then the lava in brinstar) and circle camping is completly different from normal camping and shouldnt really be allowed.

Halberd: not really neutral matierial imo, too favourite of certain characters and matchups, but you've got enough stages that it will get striked anyway.

yoshi's island melee (pipes): go dedede, or pit, or a bunch of other characters that can chaingrab up hills and you've got a simple , easy, broken 0-death combo, gg.

luigis manion: so many dumb things I wont even bother

Japes: borderline, its banable, but at the same time its not, but the clap trap changes the outcome of matches way more then it should, and falco just lols all over that stage

port town: already adressed like 5 pages back.

Originally Posted by luke_atyeo
that is a good idea, and I can apprciate the thought behind it, however the counter argument of course, is that that idea has been tried out the world over and they've all come to the same conclusion more or less.

"Again, they haven't. Or more accurately, they have, but are wrong. Probably borderline in saying this, but in the stage discussions going on, the people who vote stages should be legal usually provide great reasoning, while the pro-ban people usually just vote and don't actually argue/debate points. This of course varies depending on people and stages, but there's a number of poeple who vote without explaining any reasoning why."

well I dont know about you mic, but for me, the backrooms voting is second to my own experiance and opinion, which is not suprizingly shared by the majority of the smash community, the levels have been tested, in depth and properly (at least here in aus) and I'm pretty sure you have no idea what your talking about, your not even good at the game.

 

[MTGod]

I also want to point out something that most people are ignoring: promoting camping isn't a reason to ban a stage. Camping isn't the devil, or even a negative aspect of a game, its just simply a different playstyle. Plus, if promoting camping were bad and bannable, you'd be playing a different game.

In my opinion there's a difference between camping and gaining the stock/% lead and running away... In my opinion, what Vlade did to Alzi on Brinstar with Wario during the Grand Finals of Macbeth (wow nouns ) was the latter, and I would've been tempted to call it excessive stalling under my amount of experience, but I said nothing because a) not my tournament, and b) there was no real point since they weren't really playing for any money anyway, so I would've just been met with ridicule given everyone rooting for a time out...

Logically, if excessive chaingrabbing is classified as stalling, then a layman would expect running away (i.e. deliberately avoiding combat without attacking in any way shape or form) would be stalling too... Either the definition of stalling needs a revamp or everyone's getting this rule wrong in this argument...

Norfair gives you warning, if you cant react and pull up a sheild or abuse ledge super armor with about 2 secs warning, you should go back to chess. Nothing about the stages obstacles are unfair unless me and mic get back the invisible fire texture.

Would you consider a 100+% combo at low percents due to one airdodge into the lava unfair??? No one should get punished THAT much from a bad airdodge...

Once again this is where Im undecided, although the cars have large killing potential and not much warning, the cars only appear at specific areas and you can avoid them.

I haven't played on PT much, but on the Melee equivalent the cars were semi-random (i.e. the stage and the cars took a different amount of time to get around the track, which created a predictable but inconsistent car attack )... Not sure if Port is the same, but if it is then the cars should be predictable (however I remember on certain parts of the stage you don't even see the cars coming in from the background :O...)

Being that a number of good low tier counterpick stages are banned?

From what I am understanding from the debate, the good low tier CP stages are banned because some high tier character/s has/ve some sorta infinite/cheap strategy/s that would mean the CP would be useless if the other player picked that character... Is that right??? I actually haven't read every single stage discussion thread so I'm looking for someone to answer this in a word for me :D Where's encycloPeteia???

 

[True Romance]

I very much dislike Japes. I've always felt in a Japes allowed rule set Falco becomes stupid. Particularly if you have a Falco player who is able to play Diddy or IC's to a decent level second, or the other way around, ie IC main who has a good Falco.

For the most part I agree with Luke's opinons on stages. But my overall view on stage lists can be summed up as:

It's our TOs responsibility to host tournaments where the stage list being used will help our region be as competitive as possible at a national level. It's national level TOs responsibility to host tournaments where the stage list being used will help our country be as competitive as possible on an international level.

^^^ Pretty much overrides all other emotions I have regarding stage lists. If there's stages that fit into the above I dislike, or stages that don't fit in that I like, so be it.

But then I guess some people in the scene don't really care about the competitive aspect of the game that much and just want to have fun. Which is fare enough but their opinion probably shouldn't hold that much weight when deciding the rules for a tournament, which is inherently competitive.

Oh and Luke wtf are you doing posting at this time on a weekday? Shouldn't you be asleep?

 

[Trillest]

Would you consider a 100+% combo at low percents due to one airdodge into the lava unfair??? No one should get punished THAT much from a bad airdodge...

That was fun! :D

 

[luke_atyeo]

nah dude, I changed my working hours to 4pm till midnight, so I get to sleep like a normal person again!
it means I now have super smash powers of concentration and will be playing better then ever! (well thats the theory anyways)

 

[True Romance]

nah dude, I changed my working hours to 4pm till midnight, so I get to sleep like a normal person again!
it means I now have super smash powers of concentration and will be playing better then ever! (well thats the theory anyways)

Good ****, wanna see ACT **** Thriller

You're gonna lol so hard when you meet Alzi.

 

[luke_atyeo]

oh I will, dont you worry about that, I'll make sure our meeting is an unforgettable experiance... fufufufufu

 

[Bsrk_]

Thanks for summing up my thoughts Kane which is how I think when considering a tournament_ It depends on what you want, fin or competition_ Im paying for competition not someone idea of fun_

Luke you didn't have to go as far as to say mic isn't good at the game_ Low blow dude_ Otherwise I agree with your thoughts on stages_

 

[Alzi]

I think luke is going to go very far bob in ****** me judging by that post he made. You going early luke we can have some friendlies before pools start on saturday ok.

Have you guys seen the pools what do you think? Am i going to get out or drown in there? I just can't wait to vs scabes link i want to see how amazing it is.

 

[luke_atyeo]

yeah fair enough, sorry mic, but I felt that you were coming in too strong with your opinons, given that your not really a major player.

who knows how you'll do, but I wanna watch you v scabe, I'm trying to pull the strings to get a face off between scabe and corpse, that **** would be so epic

 

[Mic_128]

green greens: camping or not, the blocks break the stage, now you can be ******** like mic and argue that you just dont stand there, or you can be normal and realise that you have to move through there to get around the stage, and your going to be getting hit through that area often, and you'd be suprised how many times you'll get hit into a bomb block and die, or get hit into a normal block at high percent causing you to lose momentum and live from an otherwise garenteed ko.

Longest sentence ever.

Learning how to go over the blocks isn't hard by any means, my point was that people are idiots and keep going back and forth over where they spawn/standing on the blocks then complain when a bomb block lands on them.

As for people surviving because of being thrown into a normal block, should we also ban Yoshi's island for the exact same thing? And it's not as if this is a stage that people will survive forever on either, this has comparatively short blast ranges.

also the apples are an issue, if you need me to explain why then I'm going to be very dissapointed. (also not sure why you think its a good anti meta stage)

The apples aren't an issue in the slightest. Don't make a mountain out of an apple.

Also, a lot of the BBR say it's a good stage to take Meta on, and they've had more experience playing a wider range of Metas on this stage than I have.

Halberd: not really neutral matierial imo, too favourite of certain characters and matchups, but you've got enough stages that it will get striked anyway.

First off, stop calling stages "neutrals." No stage is neutral. We have Starter stages. Secondly, it favors certain characters? What, like FD does with Falco or Ice climbers?

yoshi's island melee (pipes): go dedede, or pit, or a bunch of other characters that can chaingrab up hills and you've got a simple , easy, broken 0-death combo, gg.

Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario are the only ones D3 can chaingrab up slopes.

Donkey Kong is auto-dead when grabbed by DDD on flat stages so it's all the same. Ganondorf and Link are generally considered awful and shouldn't be worried about. Wario is well-known for being good at avoiding deadly grabs, and given that the grab is only deadly to him if it is on the right side of the stage and Wario came from the right, there's just no reason for Warios to die to this. Wolf easily has a fairly effective camp game against DDD here, and given how bad Wolf vs DDD is for Wolf in general, I bet this stage actually helps Wolf a little bit in the matchup even with this cg. So that just leaves Lucario...

Yoshi's grab release chaingrab can't regrab anyone on the slope except Wario (who doesn't move forward, and it's exactly the same as it is on flat ground). It's a literal non-factor.

Marth and Charizard can't grab release chaingrab Ness and Lucas up the slope, not 100% sure on this but pretty sure. If they can, they definitely have to use dash grabs.

Falco can cg up the slope, but it generally shouldn't be a death grab I don't think.

Pikachu can actually chaingrab->death most, if not all characters there, but it's simple enough to strike the stage against him just as you would Rainbow Cruise or Delphino against MK.

well I dont know about you mic, but for me, the backrooms voting is second to my own experiance and opinion, which is not suprizingly shared by the majority of the smash community, the levels have been tested, in depth and properly (at least here in aus) and I'm pretty sure you have no idea what your talking about, your not even good at the game.

I main Pokemon Trainer and you main Snake. That's like a guy driving a F1 car telling the Mini driver he sucks at driving.

Plus personal insults are usually what people retreat to when they start to run out of real arguments.

Would you consider a 100+% combo at low percents due to one airdodge into the lava unfair??? No one should get punished THAT much from a bad airdodge...

Would you consider a 0% -> death chaingrab at low percents due to one bad airdodge unfair??? No one should get punished THAT much from a bad airdodge...

If we start banning things that punish people excessively for screwing up, we should start with Ice climbers grabs before anything else.

From what I am understanding from the debate, the good low tier CP stages are banned because some high tier character/s has/ve some sorta infinite/cheap strategy/s that would mean the CP would be useless if the other player picked that character... Is that right??? I actually haven't read every single stage discussion thread so I'm looking for someone to answer this in a word for me :D Where's encycloPeteia???

There's a number that supposedly do, yet there's no videos of this stuff happening, and the very few that do have videos, it's clear to see ways that they could have avoided it.

 

[luke_atyeo]

let me throw some of that back at ya

Longest sentence ever.
you love it
Learning how to go over the blocks isn't hard by any means, my point was that people are idiots and keep going back and forth over where they spawn/standing on the blocks then complain when a bomb block lands on them.

dont know what kinda people you play with, but using that as evidence is pretty poor

As for people surviving because of being thrown into a normal block, should we also ban Yoshi's island for the exact same thing? And it's not as if this is a stage that people will survive forever on either, this has comparatively short blast ranges.

surviving a death hit can be all it takes to turn a match around, blast zones have nothing to do with it, dont be a noob.


The apples aren't an issue in the slightest. Don't make a mountain out of an apple.

but it would taste so good.

they are a huge issue, lets say I'm in the centre and someone is on the outside and the apples spawn next to me, huge advantage, and an unfair one.
do I need to tell you what you can do with an apple?


First off, stop calling stages "neutrals." No stage is neutral. We have Starter stages. Secondly, it favors certain characters? What, like FD does with Falco or Ice climbers?

oh sorry about that king mic, anyways thats why FD was taken off the starter list.


Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario are the only ones D3 can chaingrab up slopes.

you might want to double check that, even so d3 isnt the only problem.

Ganondorf and Link are generally considered awful and shouldn't be worried about.

thats a stupid excuse and you know it.


Falco can cg up the slope, but it generally shouldn't be a death grab I don't think.

depends on where he gets the grab, and given that he's the best camper in the game, he's in a position to choose where you fight him.


I main Pokemon Trainer and you main Snake. That's like a guy driving a F1 car telling the Mini driver he sucks at driving.

personal excuses are usually what people retreat to when they know the truth hurts,
I'm sorry mic but complaing about characters like that only makes you look even worse, just because you play pkmn trainer doesnt mean you have an excuse (just look at toby, or steeler, or reflex, or any of the other numerous amazing pokemon trainer players) even without snake I'm a better player then you.

Plus personal insults are usually what people retreat to when they start to run out of real arguments.

no, I wasnt saying your bad because I wanted to insult you, I was saying your bad and your opinon on things has less wheigh because of it.
also your not a psychologist, so stop acting like one.

 

[Corpsecreate]

yeah fair enough, sorry mic, but I felt that you were coming in too strong with your opinons, given that your not really a major player.

who knows how you'll do, but I wanna watch you v scabe, I'm trying to pull the strings to get a face off between scabe and corpse, that **** would be so epic

Me and Scabe had some friendlies at Rocky, he taught me a new tech that I didnt know when we were there and I taught him one he didnt know He plays a beast of a Link!

 

[luke_atyeo]

he's really improved since then

 

[Corpsecreate]

Hes not the only one

 

[luke_atyeo]

your right, I've improved too

 

[Corpsecreate]

lol

 

[Hobobloke]

All or most of the people attending your tournament Pete will probably stray away from proving stages broken, as since only 3 players from the current PRs will be there the glimmer of hope will be in us all, and thus testing out gimmicks will become secondary to the chance of winning a tournament

If people want to win and the stages are so easily abused why not abuse them yourself for an easy win.

But unfortunately we've now been forced into a situation where we have to employ that tactic in order to prove it exists and can be abused... It's either be nice and play properly which will lead to keeping stages that will be abused by OoS/OoC players, or be a right prick for the good of the scene... *sigh*

The reality of it is when you're playing competitive ideally you play to win regardless of whether it's "nice" or not, I don't think MK's spamming tornado against Bowser (<3 Kane) is nice but it's a part of the game and I expect nothing less.

On the short_ Luigis Mansion has a write up of all te numerous exploitations available there_ I never elieved it at first until I read this information and it is all viable_ You can test it out yourself_

Just to clarify I don't necessarily think some of these stages should be legal (Luigi's being one) but think they should be tested practically before we ban them, don't just say there are exploits, list them, I can't debate what you don't bring up. If they are as bad as you say then surely it will be quickly banned after seeing them in action.

I had numerous discussions with Vlade about Norfair as you are all aware I was an advocate for keeping it_ There are two issues aboutthis stage_ The first is the randomness factor of the fire spurts or whatever you call them hitting on stage_ Now unlike the other 2 which give you sufficient time and warning to avoid them, these do not and merely appear, catching people off guard and costing lives unfairly_

People have already addressed that it is quite easy to react to the stage hazards and if you don't its your own fault.

To continue with Norfair, the second is edge stalling_ Its not jus MK who can do this and it actively promotes stalling and or camping, which for purposes of competitive play you would like to avoid as much as possible unless you really want to lose numbers and active participants_

We do have a ledge grab rule remember. That being said it's just as easy to camp on other stages, if you don't like camping don't play brawl, it's a campy game.

Let's look at Port Town_ The base of the stage in some transformations have cars running by rapidly_ These cars kill at extremely low percents and are thus seen as too random and volatile an element to allow_ You could argue and say to stay on the platforms although it's not that simple_ Some characters are capable of creating a wall and could effectively force another into a situation where they must land on the racing strip, leaving them vulnerable to a potential stage kill_

Again another stage I'm not particularly for, though if someone manages to force you into a var kill it's their good play, it's the same as someone forcing you into the laser on halberd or the bombs.

Kills are mean to be controlled so that it is the player who is responsible for stock losses, not the stage_ An element that creates a high possibilty without sufficient warning or time to avoid is seen as unviable for the stage and players on it_ I can say for all of you that you would not appreciate being killed by the stage and bot your opponent_ On Halberd you blame stupidity for not following the warning signs, on Norfair you abuse the stage because you had no warning_

People will abuse anything they can to shift the blame from their own bad play, nobody likes to accept it was their fault but the reality is that it was.

Its a random element that creates an unfair component to a game that is attempting to be as fair, unbiased and conpetitive as possible_

I love Brawl but it is not a fair, unbiased, competitive game.

As stated earlier by Jesse_ As a community we should be promoting growth_ By introudcing stages that can be abused or hold random elements that can be deemed as unfair, we are only forcing players to eventually take a path that promotes further abuse_ I could bet that if we still kept mostly flat stages then we would see an increased number of players who benefit on them_ Once you incorporate stages that have a definite advantage towards one or a handfull of characters, then chance are you will begin to see them more often purely due to tactical advantage_

This is promoting growth, these stage aren't permanent and if proved break the game then will be removed. Also the proposed counterpicks help some low tiers actually have viable counterpicks.

You are not taking into consideration that during those 2 seconds of warning you could be doing something else (ie, special move, recovery, avoiding attacks, being harrased by your opponent/ vice versa) Some of which would take 2 seconds to a)complete said movement/attack/recovery and b) attempt to react to the lava which may already be active if your movements take longer than 2 seconds_

What if someone is doing the aforementioned things during the last 2 seconds before the laser shoots on halberd? Also someone harassing you is not valid,

In theory 2 seconds is fine but in reality there is more that could potentially be occurring that would take longer than 2 seconds_ Mic in all the time we have had both Pictochat and Norfair active, how many times would you say the stage was to blame for stock losses_? I can easily say that Norfair was the more frequent of the 2_ You can argue that popularity also increases the consistency of stage deaths but in reality it has more damage potential and constant events that are comparatively more dangerous than Pitcochat_

Could it also be people die more on Norfair case they are doing stupid ****? I've seen more people die to the skill-tester on Halberd than Norfair lava spurts, doesn't mean that the claw is to blame.

Sure Norfair can alternatively stop circle stalling momentarily but again reality is it doesn't stop it permanently_ Pete how does camping affect the game_? If it becomes to campy then no-one plays, scene doesn't expand, no scene growth no player growth, scene dies slowly or just stays at a low number constantly_ We are trying to make the Brawl scene in general larger, and by promoting or further allowing camping we are further distancing new players and potential scene growth_

Camping is an aspect of the game and a large aspect, sure it's boring but it's not bad. Also no stage can permanently stop circle camping.

JJ is banned because it allowed Falco a *******ly CP over everyone_ Although Vlade *cough* is the only real Falco main in the scene, i'm sure you are starting to see people slowly climb the tier list onto characters that potentially create issues stage wise_

It shouldn't necessarily be banned because it gives one character an advantage, otherwise we'd have banned Rainbow Cruise thanks to MK.

Norfair is on the fine line but i'm againsty it being a CP personally after my talks with Vlade_ Port Town should be a fairly obvious no no_ Also Marteh, some characters have poor recovery options and will be easily abused or forced upon them with this stage_ If there were no cars and the possibility of an instant stock loss then i would argue for, but the cars make it a definite no for me_

There are a lot of stages that punish characters for having poor recoveries, why should they be different?

green greens: camping or not, the blocks break the stage, now you can be ******** like mic and argue that you just dont stand there, or you can be normal and realise that you have to move through there to get around the stage, and your going to be getting hit through that area often, and you'd be suprised how many times you'll get hit into a bomb block and die, or get hit into a normal block at high percent causing you to lose momentum and live from an otherwise garenteed ko. also the apples are an issue, if you need me to explain why then I'm going to be very dissapointed. (also not sure why you think its a good anti meta stage)

It is not hard to avoid the blocks. if you get hit into the bomb block thats good stage use by the opponent, if he hits you into the blocks and you survive thats bad stage use by him.

Halberd: not really neutral matierial imo, too favourite of certain characters and matchups, but you've got enough stages that it will get striked anyway.

With that criteria FD shouldn't be a starter either.

yoshi's island melee (pipes): go dedede, or pit, or a bunch of other characters that can chaingrab up hills and you've got a simple , easy, broken 0-death combo, gg.

Barely any can chaingrab up hills due to the nature of the slope, I was unaware pit could, but I know DDD can only chaingrab DK, Wario, Link, Ganon, Wolf, and Lucario up the hill. Also he cannot infinite anyone on a slope, nor small step CG them, which means the CG is less effective on some characters here.

luigis manion: so many dumb things I wont even bother

Real constructive.

Japes: borderline, its banable, but at the same time its not, but the clap trap changes the outcome of matches way more then it should, and falco just lols all over that stage

Clap trap occurs exactly 13 seconds iirc, not hard to kepp track of the timer.

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what your talking about, your not even good at the game.

Nice way to be a huge ****, and Kane had led me to believe you were a coll guy.

In my opinion there's a difference between camping and gaining the stock/% lead and running away... In my opinion, what Vlade did to Alzi on Brinstar with Wario during the Grand Finals of Macbeth (wow nouns ) was the latter, and I would've been tempted to call it excessive stalling under my amount of experience, but I said nothing because a) not my tournament, and b) there was no real point since they weren't really playing for any money anyway, so I would've just been met with ridicule given everyone rooting for a time out...

Stalling is the act of making the game unplayable running away is no this but rather just really good spacing.

Logically, if excessive chaingrabbing is classified as stalling, then a layman would expect running away (i.e. deliberately avoiding combat without attacking in any way shape or form) would be stalling too... Either the definition of stalling needs a revamp or everyone's getting this rule wrong in this argument...

An infinite continuing for 8 minutes makes the game unplayable because the opponent physically can't do anything. the definition is above, in all my tournament posts, and in the SBR recommended ruleset.

Got ninja'd big time.

 

[SummonerAU]

With that criteria FD shouldn't be a starter either.

Pretty sure it isn't.

 

[Hobobloke]

I agree .

 

[luke_atyeo]

I am a coll guy, I'm as coll as they come, (and by coll I mean a huge ****)
fd isnt a starter anymore in alot of places, and the blocks are hard to avoid with everything going on, just like its hard to keep track of the claptrap (and I think its every 7 seconds..? dunno cant remember)
also its all about bad luck (being in the wrong place at the wrong time)

hey, its your tourney, you can do what you like but you wanted opinions so I gave mine.

 

[Mic_128]

you love it
Learning how to go over the blocks isn't hard by any means, my point was that people are idiots and keep going back and forth over where they spawn/standing on the blocks then complain when a bomb block lands on them.

dont know what kinda people you play with, but using that as evidence is pretty poor

Huh? Evidence of what? That they're idiots for hanging around where explosives land? I don't get your point.


As for people surviving because of being thrown into a normal block, should we also ban Yoshi's island for the exact same thing? And it's not as if this is a stage that people will survive forever on either, this has comparatively short blast ranges.

surviving a death hit can be all it takes to turn a match around,

Exactly, so we should ban Yoshi's Island for the shy guys, right? I'm sure they've saved a large number of lives.

The apples aren't an issue in the slightest. Don't make a mountain out of an apple.

but it would taste so good.

they are a huge issue, lets say I'm in the centre and someone is on the outside and the apples spawn next to me, huge advantage, and an unfair one.
do I need to tell you what you can do with an apple?

You mean if someone's camping the edges, that the apples provide both a tool to stop it (Free projectile, woo!) or a reward for holding center (Health from apples, woo!)

Both help discourage camping. How's that a problem?


First off, stop calling stages "neutrals." No stage is neutral. We have Starter stages. Secondly, it favors certain characters? What, like FD does with Falco or Ice climbers?

oh sorry about that king mic, anyways thats why FD was taken off the starter list.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not, but somehow I doubt it. You're seldom serious

But my point is, that if a stage can be a starter that gives such an advantage, why can't a stage be a counterpick when it does the same thing that they do, being favoring certain characters?

Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario are the only ones D3 can chaingrab up slopes.

you might want to double check that, even so d3 isnt the only problem.

Amazing Ampharos is who posted the data, I don't see any reason to doubt him. Though Peach also does get grabbed I think, thought I posted that, must have forgot.

Ganondorf and Link are generally considered awful and shouldn't be worried about.

thats a stupid excuse and you know it.

Not really. He can CG them anyway. Not to mention they can just strike the stage

Falco can cg up the slope, but it generally shouldn't be a death grab I don't think.

depends on where he gets the grab, and given that he's the best camper in the game, he's in a position to choose where you fight him.

Again, strike it against em. Not that I suspect they'd actually choose it with FD/Japes/Smashville available. Besides, if Falco wants to do that, he'd have to grab them facing a certain way. Not too hard to avoid that.

Plus personal insults are usually what people retreat to when they start to run out of real arguments.

no, I wasnt saying your bad because I wanted to insult you, I was saying your bad and your opinon on things has less wheigh because of it.
also your not a psychologist, so stop acting like one.

Where am I acting like a psychologist? It's a fact.

And as for not being the best, therefor my opinion is invalid, when you've seen some of the complete garbage that M2K's come out with, you'll realise that how good you are doesn't matter. How many coaches haven't won any sporting events, yet can still coach someone to become a world champ? Those that can't do, teach. I should know, I'm training to be a teacher.

<dodgeingcharlimit

 

[tedeth]

Green Greens is dumb. Even dumber than RC.

How can you not ****ign see that?
How can you not ****ing see that?
How can you not ****ing see that?

Should I even go to Perth?

****!

Get better.