Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

is it this guy?

Pretty sure it's him though I can't really watch the video on my phone.

He's also the one who made the Japanese Greninja montage I've linked in the old thread a long time ago IIRC.

 

[juddy96]

I didn't watch the stream but heard he went all Pac-Man.

The other Sheik player he'd beat was Shu.

He went Rosalina vs. Taranito in winners finals and Meta Knight vs. Umeki after dropping 1st game with Pacman.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He went Rosalina vs. Taranito in winners finals and Meta Knight vs. Umeki after dropping 1st game with Pacman.

So basically he went Pac-Man against his worst matchup [for the most part] and decided to use secondary characters in matchups where Pac-Man does just fine.

What a champ.

 

[Blobface]

Dark Fists wouldn't be so good if Dark Dive wasn't such crap. I'm pretty sure the grab kills later than most jab combos, even though he makes you explode. Also wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for his mondo-cool flippy thing making it punishable on hit most of the time (though this is a dumb thing about C. Falcon too). Seriously, buff the last hits damage from 3 to 9 and make the cool flippy thing interruptible sooner and it'd be perfect. Some Ganon's might actually choose it over Dark Fists.

Wizard's Dropkick is not a strict upgrade, though there are match ups where it's really good to have. It changes Ganon's play style a lot, sacrificing some punish ability, a good way to beat dodges, and a good anti-juggle, in exchange for a better approach, recovery, and slightly better comboing.

Side-B customs are good moves on the wrong character. Flame Wave is a god tier spot dodge punish... On a character who's F-smash is a god tier spot dodge punish, and the anti-shield tool you give up when you lose Flame Choke is just too crippling. Flame Chain sets up edge guarding amazingly well... Which F-tilt and U-air already do, and again, the loss of Flame Choke is just too much of an issue.

Wizard's Assault at least has some niche use in doubles (saving teammates etc.), and is decent for going offstage, but it's clearly intended for items on where the ability to move to a location and sen people away from it would be great.

Dark Vault shouldn't exist. Ganondorf almost exclusively has trouble with horizontal recovery, but this move decreases his horizontal recovery for a negligible amount of vertical distance. And it's weaker than Dark Dive!


A lot of customs are stuck in "almost-good" purgatory. A lot of customs were quite frankly overcompensated, the most common being insane startup and endlag. If you went through every custom and lowered those two appropriately, a huge amount of characters would gain viable custom options that still offered a trade-off with default.

The only other custom type I can think of that just plain sucks in general would be distance up-b's. Imagine if those types of customs didn't put you in helpless. You gain loads of air mobility, but your recovery becomes extremely vulnerable.

That obviously wouldn't fix everything, but my point is that a lot of customs could be made into something good pretty easily.

 

[Nu~]

He went Rosalina vs. Taranito in winners finals and Meta Knight vs. Umeki after dropping 1st game with Pacman.

Who do Umeki and Tarantino play?

 

[juddy96]

So basically he went Pac-Man against his worst matchup [for the most part] and decided to use secondary characters in matchups where Pac-Man does just fine.

What a champ.

Well, if he didn't pull out AbaKnight, he very well could've been in losers in Round 2. And then everything would've changed.

Who do Umeki and Tarantino play?

Umeki plays Taranito plays

 

[Nu~]

Umeki plays Taranito plays

Then I am very confused lol.

Ness and peach are fine.

 

[juddy96]

Then I am very confused lol.

Ness and peach are fine.

He lost first game vs. Umeki's peach. Then he switched to MK and brought it back. Never lost a game from there in the whole tournament. I guess pulling out Rosalina vs. Ness was just a counter pick.

 

[warionumbah2]

His MK is clean tho, got a Dash attack --> Uair --> FF Bair -- > Jab lock and almost got a 0 to death. He got 0-56% off that one dash attack.

 

[bc1910]

Some got beaten by Shu's Sheik which isn't surprising, then got really far through losers and lost to Daiki's Diddy. The Diddy MU is fine for Greninja but Some played pretty aggressively and I think that's a MU where shuriken zoning is important.

Umebura 19 had 190 entrants and was stacked with top players like Rain, Nietono and Abadango. I'm so pleased to see Greninja finally get a good top 8 result. I hope Some attends more stuff in the future.

 

[Nu~]

His MK is clean tho, got a Dash attack --> Uair --> FF Bair -- > Jab lock and almost got a 0 to death. He got 0-56% off that one dash attack.

If you want to play that game...
http://youtu.be/fT_s3LIbRvM


He could have killed at 50 instead
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Yikarur]

There is a french tournament with 3 germans Top5.
www.challonge.com/smashsummercup_solo

Here is the bracket if someone is interested.
Top8 is played tomorow at about noon Paris time.
There is a stream as well but I don't have the link handy rightnow.
germany > france

 

[bc1910]

Oh and Eddy got 9th in this tournament today.

This was Smash Summer Cup, a French tournament. Not sure about size in terms of regional vs national but there were quite a few entrants and players from other countries like Germany, so I'd say it's reasonably big. A pretty good result.

 

[warionumbah2]

If you want to play that game...
http://youtu.be/fT_s3LIbRvM


He could have killed at 50 instead
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't understand.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Side-B customs are good moves on the wrong character. Flame Wave is a god tier spot dodge punish... On a character who's F-smash is a god tier spot dodge punish, and the anti-shield tool you give up when you lose Flame Choke is just too crippling. Flame Chain sets up edge guarding amazingly well... Which F-tilt and U-air already do, and again, the loss of Flame Choke is just too much of an issue.

I'm told that Flame Chain is the go-to side special option vs. Rosalina since Luma basically invalidates Choke and Wave by merely existing.

 

[Nu~]

I don't understand.

Exactly

It was an awful joke...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3MVdjc9nbo

Nietono showing some 20XX Fox gameplay.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, magnificently off topic but I've come to realize that I've never heard anybody's opinion on Toon Link competitively. He's one of those characters that nobody really talks about and there seems to be a quiet consensus that he's just "meh". It's almost been a year since the games have come out and he's literally the only character I have never heard any strong opinions about. Are their any notable Toon Links that I could reference? Granted, I don't have any interest in picking up the character but I will admit that I'm super curious about how this character has developed and differs from his Brawl incarnation.

 

[C0rvus]

Check out Zan, he's the best Tink on the block as far as I know. After playing Toon Link a while, he feels very competant. Obviously his frame data is lacking, and his grab is bad, but between his speed, ability to control space, and bomb confirms, he has his niche. In fact, he has a couple key matchups that are pretty good. I think he beats Ness and Falcon slightly, has a good Sonic matchup, and can handle the likes of Mario, Fox, and Yoshi with a little hard work. I haven't played many Diddys, but that MU doesn't seem too bad. Should you be afraid of Toon Link? Not at all, just be smart with your shield and be patient. Is he irrelevant or bad? Not really. I would put him somewhere in the teeming swarm that is now mid tier. Alright character, not overrated or anything.

 

[bc1910]

Toon Link's mobility combined with bombs make him quite threatening in my opinion. His mobility isn't top tier but he has fast ground speed, amazing rolls and good aerial control. Him having this combined with one of the best projectiles in the game makes him pretty damn tough to fight at times. His powerful aerials are nice too, and work well with his aerial control.

I think his main problem is killing. Realistically you can't shield forever when he's trying to rack up damage, but when you're at kill percent, you can camp shield with few repercussions. His kill moves are just tough to hit with in general, though he has plenty of them, and although bombs can hit confirm into kills they aren't gonna get past a shield. And yes the bomb toss itself is pretty much unreactable, but Toon Link holding a bomb isn't as threatening as say, Diddy holding a banana. Would be crazy if the bombs weren't on a timer though.

I think Toon Link is pretty underrated. Characers with good mobility and a good projectile tend to be a pain in the arse to fight, at least.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'd say he's a middle tier. Upper Middle (Below high-mid though). He's fast, he has great projectiles, and has good camping, and can attack you in air prety good if you have a low falling speed. He CAN ko with air attacks, forward smash, and up smash. He has a good matchup aganist Sonic too I think, as somebody said above (Not to say it's even or in his favor, just that it's pretty good)

 

[adom4]

I'm told that Flame Chain is the go-to side special option vs. Rosalina since Luma basically invalidates Choke and Wave by merely existing.

Flame chain isn't that great, the startup and endlag are crippling.
Wave is a bit better against rosa imo, it kills her very early and the explosion murders luma.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I don't think Toon Link is underrated. In fact, I don't think he's "rated" to begin with.

 

[Djent]

Hayato (who beat Rain) is also a worth checking out.

I see TL falling somewhere between spots 16-30 on the tier list. So basically mid/upper mid tier. His MU is realistically winnable which is kind of a big deal, and I'm willing to bet he does OK vs. some of the other high tiers as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It also makes Mario's recovery way worse, so most of the time people don't use it and prefer the regular up B which is a solid combo finisher and keeps his recovery intact.
At EVO the only relevant Mario rep was Ally and he refused to use customs.

EJP is a legitimately amazing custom that has a lot of synergy with Gust Cape. It's just mostly outclassed by Shocking Cape which is a BROKEN custom (having a reliable KO confirm out of grab on the entire cast thanks to Shocking Cape is pretty stupid on Mario, not to mention the general aerial KO and disjointed spacing utility).

The time to use EJP is specifically when you need Gust Cape to avoid certain juggles/edgeguards and when it's a matchup where it is easier to combo into. It's definitely a very viable custom especially since it's a better foward facing out of dash punish than U-smash.

 

[Pressio]

The best toon link by far -> Yackabean : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EfdkOdXsZA (Zan is not on his level)

 

[TTTTTsd]

When it comes to ridiculous Mario customs I always default to Scalding FLUDD as by far the dumbest one.

Mario when his customs are fully utilized is incredibly, incredibly stupid.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There is a french tournament with 3 germans Top5.
www.challonge.com/smashsummercup_solo

Here is the bracket if someone is interested.
Top8 is played tomorow at about noon Paris time.
There is a stream as well but I don't have the link handy rightnow.
germany > france

Is quik quiksilver?
Most likely wrong but gl.

 

[|RK|]

Maybe ZeRo just isn't in the right state right now, but a Lucario just took a game off of his Sheik. He switched to Diddy and he's cleaning house, but it's really hard to see how Lucario doesn't have a good matchup vs Sheik.

 

[Rikkhan]

what about hyuga toon link? he did pretty good against Mr. R sheik.

 

[Illuminose]

and people have been saying that lucario doesn't have a positive matchup vs sheik...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its hard to rate characters with that kind of comeback factor. Lucario has horrid neutral so what you see is alot of Sheik outclassing him left and right but he gets that one grab or smash and kills her at 50%.

 

[Routa]

There is a french tournament with 3 germans Top5.

Germans sure love invading French , eh?

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, toon link also has a good MU vs Sonic, Diddy, maybe other top tiers. His disadvantage state and neutral are great, though I think he's only scary in advantage due to the laggy grab into bthrow.

Definitely seems upper mid tier though.

Also I wholeheartedly believe mario is #1 in customs, but people completely misunderstood his customs at first and he's generally switching it up a lot. ("OMG gust cape is so op because i get very situational edgeguards" ignoring the true combos off grab shocking cape has)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yea, toon link also has a good MU vs Sonic, Diddy, maybe other top tiers. His disadvantage state and neutral are great, though I think he's only scary in advantage due to the laggy grab into bthrow.

Definitely seems upper mid tier though.

Also I wholeheartedly believe mario is #1 in customs, but people completely misunderstood his customs at first and he's generally switching it up a lot. ("OMG gust cape is so op because i get very situational edgeguards" ignoring the true combos off grab shocking cape has)

I don't know about #1, but Top 3 EASILY.

Absurd customs
- Shocking Cape
- Hot Kettle FLUDD

Solid customs
- Ken's Shoryuken

I mean, combining it in tandem with Mario's frame data and movement and it's pretty easy to see why. Scalding FLUDD gives you ez disjointed conversions into grab, EJP works on virtually all of the good characters in the game as they are susceptible to Uair strings mostly, and Shocking Cape has been explained already.

He's just silly good with these on. They fix virtually every problem he has and you are stuck fighting a monster. It's really a good thing no one has unlocked Customs Mario yet, I can't imagine the reactions.

 

[Blobface]

What about jab lock shenanigans with Fast Fireballs?

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't know about #1, but Top 3 EASILY.

Absurd customs
- Shocking Cape
- Hot Kettle FLUDD

Solid customs
- Ken's Shoryuken

I mean, combining it in tandem with Mario's frame data and movement and it's pretty easy to see why. Scalding FLUDD gives you ez disjointed conversions into grab, EJP works on virtually all of the good characters in the game as they are susceptible to Uair strings mostly, and Shocking Cape has been explained already.

He's just silly good with these on. They fix virtually every problem he has and you are stuck fighting a monster. It's really a good thing no one has unlocked Customs Mario yet, I can't imagine the reactions.

Explosive may have the fire, but Super Jump Punch is more similar to Ken's Shoryuken functionally.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't know about #1, but Top 3 EASILY.

Absurd customs
- Shocking Cape
- Hot Kettle FLUDD

Solid customs
- Ken's Shoryuken

I mean, combining it in tandem with Mario's frame data and movement and it's pretty easy to see why. Scalding FLUDD gives you ez disjointed conversions into grab, EJP works on virtually all of the good characters in the game as they are susceptible to Uair strings mostly, and Shocking Cape has been explained already.

He's just silly good with these on. They fix virtually every problem he has and you are stuck fighting a monster. It's really a good thing no one has unlocked Customs Mario yet, I can't imagine the reactions.

Unless someone else gets super absurd, he definitely beats sheik. His MU vs Sheik is already decent, but there's no way he doesn't beat her now with kill confirms around 70% and fast fireball countering needles/short hop mix-ups like they do. Sheik has to approach a lot more and takes more damage/dies sooner as a result.

His overall versatility with a reflector, easy ledge challenge with default fireballs/general fast fireball potency, and scalding being almost as potent as needles in the "Well I felt like winning neutral all of a sudden" department... And EJP just taking stocks or free akin to ZSS makes me unable to see any default top tier beat him. Custom pikachu be damned, fast fireball beats custom jolt and mario kill combos pika super hard and early.

Even custom duck hunt who I think is top 10 would lose because default fireballs, and dair/nair ensure a relatively easy return to neutral by disabling zigzag. (Also kill combos DHD really easy)

What about jab lock shenanigans with Fast Fireballs?

Yea, sh nair > fast fireball > EJP is a thing. He can already SH Nair > jab > fsmash but it's less consistent.

He definitely beats mii brawler due to superior neutral and more consistently being a threat. (Brawler MIGHT kill you at 40%, mario MIGHT kill you at 60% and WILL kill you at 90-110%)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Unless someone else gets super absurd, he definitely beats sheik. His MU vs Sheik is already decent, but there's no way he doesn't beat her now with kill confirms around 70% and fast fireball countering needles/short hop mix-ups like they do. Sheik has to approach a lot more and takes more damage/dies sooner as a result.

His overall versatility with a reflector, easy ledge challenge with default fireballs/general fast fireball potency, and scalding being almost as potent as needles in the "Well I felt like winning neutral all of a sudden" department... And EJP just taking stocks or free akin to ZSS makes me unable to see any default top tier beat him. Custom pikachu be damned, fast fireball beats custom jolt and mario kill combos pika super hard and early.

Even custom duck hunt who I think is top 10 would lose because default fireballs, and dair/nair ensure a relatively easy return to neutral by disabling zigzag. (Also kill combos DHD really easy)



Yea, sh nair > fast fireball > EJP is a thing. He can already SH Nair > jab > fsmash but it's less consistent.

He definitely beats mii brawler due to superior neutral and more consistently being a threat. (Brawler MIGHT kill you at 40%, mario MIGHT kill you at 60% and WILL kill you at 90-110%)

This is all pretty true, I'd like to see the Customs Mario vs. Sheik MU played out to confirm that, but everything else is 100% correct. EJP is different than ZSS Up+B in that it's GUARANTEED and also on a char without a tether grab (and also a disjointed grab startup move in Scalding). How fun~.

 

[bc1910]

For anyone interested, Umebara 19's full top 8:

1. Abadango
2. Shu
3. taranito
4. Daiki
5. Rain
5. Some
7. DtN|Nietono
7. Pichi

As far as I'm aware, secondaries were barely used. Abadango used Rosalina and MK a couple of times and apparently Daiki used Mega Man, not in any of the uploaded matches though.

No surprises besides Pac-Man and Greninja, great results for those two. More proof of Diddy still being a top tier threat, but I don't think anyone doubts that at this point.