Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Planet God Venus]

Hey, people like results in various regions. Japan has none (and may it continue to sacrifice Ike results in order to generate more Ike buffs), and I don't follow Europe like at all. I know that one exists and... kinda counts as a "regional" I guess because it was all parts of the UK not just say Britain there?

EU guys, does that count as a regional?

 

[Routa]

If I'm correct there are 3 main regions in Europe: North (Norway, Sweden, Finland), Central (UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany) and East (Portugal and Spain).

 

[Wintropy]

If I'm correct there are 3 main regions in Europe: North (Norway, Sweden, Finland), Central (UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany) and East (Portugal and Spain).

Does Ireland count as a sub-set of the UK (even though we're politically distinct), or are we just that much of a blip on the radar?

Serious question, I'd love to know where my region stands in a wider European context. It'd help flesh out the impact of Irish tourney results, both at home and abroad.

 

[Routa]

If I am correct yeah kinda. Maybe my wording wasn't the best. Retry:
North (Finland, Sweden and Norway)
Central:
- Isles (UK and Ireland)
- Mainland (France, Germany, Belgium etc)
East (Portugal and Spain)

Central is ofc the biggest region. I also hear people dividing Mainland into France speaking areas and German speaking areas.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Speaaaaaaking of Spain, big smash 4 tournament there this weekend actually. with SMYM probably lacking sm4sh stream (RIP Clash tournaments) might be a really cool thing to watch outside of Pax. Plus Australia has a major too. Global Smash looks good this weekend

 

[Pazx]

can confirm that zss is probably around 10 - 15 in the custom meta that I play tournaments in

If this is serious I'd be interested in hearing more about your proposed top 15.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Good. If he hypes up DK people will complain about him and not realize that hes a character with heavily exploitable weaknesses.

In no way is that good man. People will complain about the the strengths without the knowledge of the weaknesses.

Speaaaaaaking of Spain, big smash 4 tournament there this weekend actually. with SMYM probably lacking sm4sh stream (RIP Clash tournaments) might be a really cool thing to watch outside of Pax. Plus Australia has a major too. Global Smash looks good this weekend

Directly from our feed with Chibo was that he wanted more money than usual and to be picked up from an airport far too away from us.

 

[Ffamran]

So, apparently Fox can Fair spike if he trades as seen here and here. So, with fast fall Fair and Wolf Flash, Fox has 3 ways to spike you and 2 of them are available by default. I wonder what other moves can do this. Falco's Fair and Wario's Dair can. And they don't have to have autolink angles, 366 angles, like Fox and Falco's Fair. Wario's Dair has an angle of 250 somewhere and Fox's has an angle of 75 somewhere on his Fair as well alongside his autolink angles.

 

[Teshie U]

Fox can actually fast fall so hard he doesnt need to trade to do that.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox can actually fast fall so hard he doesnt need to trade to do that.

Well, it's 3 options in 1 move. So, the moment he uses Fair he has 3 options: a regular Fair, a fast fall or the incomplete Fair, and a Fair trade. Between fast fall and trade, he's still going to get the same reward: a semi-spike. It's just one happens when he hits and the other happens when he and his opponent hit each other. Oh, and the game even tells you to try and hit Fair's last hit before you land: "Front Air Attack – Try timing the fifth strike to hit your opponent just before you hit the ground. When your opponent bounces, that's your chance for a follow-up attack." Fast falling it before the last hit happens and to drag people down is something the game never told you, but players figured out. It's still a similar idea, though. So, on the ground, Fox has 4 options: a regular Fair, "landing synced" Fair, fast fall Fair, and a Fair trade while in the air, those 3 options I already mentioned.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

In no way is that good man. People will complain about the the strengths without the knowledge of the weaknesses.


Directly from our feed with Chibo was that he wanted more money than usual and to be picked up from an airport far too away from us.

No i mean it's good that he never talks about DK. I don't need cancerous ideas makng everyone go nuts about a character.

 

[Sir Tundra]

So, apparently Fox can Fair spike if he trades as seen here and here. So, with fast fall Fair and Wolf Flash, Fox has 3 ways to spike you and 2 of them are available by default. I wonder what other moves can do this. Falco's Fair and Wario's Dair can. And they don't have to have autolink angles, 366 angles, like Fox and Falco's Fair. Wario's Dair has an angle of 250 somewhere and Fox's has an angle of 75 somewhere on his Fair as well alongside his autolink angles.

Isn't it just marvelous? The amount of way's fox can spike you off stage is just splendid. Fair spiking my opponents offstage always give's me an extra bit of satisfaction. It's just too bad that one of those options(Wolf Flash) trades an additional approach option for a meteor that only works at fox's body. Which is alot harder then you'd think since fox goes diagonally.

edit: unless wolf flash still has them ledge tricks from brawl cause in that case it isn't much of a problem

 

[Ffamran]

Isn't it just marvelous? The amount of way's fox can spike you off stage is just splendid. Fair spiking my opponents offstage always give's me an extra bit of satisfaction. It's just too bad that one of those options(Wolf Flash) trades an additional approach option for a meteor that only works at fox's body. Which is alot harder then you'd think since fox goes diagonally.

Now, if only Fox had a Reflector custom that mimicked Wolf's Reflector in PM. Has there ever been enough testing to see if Fox can confirm a Wolf Flash?

Anyway, the whole trade to spike thing or fast fall to spike might be a thing players should look into. Some of them aren't even difficult or risky. Trades for spikes are literally get hit to screw your opponent over by weird game mechanics. People always talk about how Falco's Fair is "busted", "OP", or "too good". Yeah, so is pretty much any move with lots of active frames and somewhat low knockback. Yoshi could probably gimp people if he had a regular up special recovery instead of being dependent on his jump, Luigi can hit with semi spike with Luigi Cyclone, but it would be easier if his air speed wasn't *** so he could dip lower or just have lower risk involved, and can't Sheik fast fall Uair to semi spike like Fox with his Fair? People talk about how Sheik's recovery is amazing, so why not try something like that? Sure, it's not safe, but it would look hilarious as your opponent gets even madder at our Smash 4 goddess.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Now, if only Fox had a Reflector custom that mimicked Wolf's Reflector in PM. Has there ever been enough testing to see if Fox can confirm a Wolf Flash?

Anyway, the whole trade to spike thing or fast fall to spike might be a thing players should look into. Some of them aren't even difficult or risky. Trades for spikes are literally get hit to screw your opponent over by weird game mechanics. People always talk about how Falco's Fair is "busted", "OP", or "too good". Yeah, so is pretty much any move with lots of active frames and somewhat low knockback. Yoshi could probably gimp people if he had a regular up special recovery instead of being dependent on his jump, Luigi can hit with semi spike with Luigi Cyclone, but it would be easier if his air speed wasn't *** so he could dip lower or just have lower risk involved, and can't Sheik fast fall Uair to semi spike like Fox with his Fair? People talk about how Sheik's recovery is amazing, so why not try something like that? Sure, it's not safe, but it would look hilarious as your opponent gets even madder at our Smash 4 goddess.

From what I just tested you can potentially true combo down throw too wolf flash if the opponent doesn't DI off of the down throw. Also yeah I would love to see a sheik main just semi spike an opponent off stage with uair would bring out so much salt.

 

[CommanderRin]

When you play the top player in your region and get beat. Then realize that Nairo, Zero etc. will just style and not even take it seriously to beat them.

This is exciting!

 

[DeLux]

If this is serious I'd be interested in hearing more about your proposed top 15.

For reference, most tournaments I have played in used 13 stages with no starter/cp distinction and 4 bans in the CP phase with all custom sets legal. The 13 stages are MV, SV, FD, TC, DP, CS, DH, KJ, DL, PS2, SL, WI, LC.

S: Sheik (upgrade side special and neutral special)
A: Fox (twisting fox and falco blaster), Pikachu (heavy skull bash and thunderwave), MiiBrawler (helicopter kick and tiny speed mode), Rosaluma (luma warp/lucky charm shots)
B: Sonic (hammer spin dash is broke and multi springs helps some camping), Mario (super broken combo off Uair to kill upsecial like boost kick but much better), Villager (exploding balloons and tripping sapling), Luigi (default but crazy good), Yoshi (the super egglay but otherwise really good default)
C: Ness (would be higher but the Rosaluma matchup makes things problematic, like without rosa he would be top 5 for certain), Custom Palutena

ZSS is then on par with Custom Kirby, Custom Lucario, MK, Custom Diddy, Custom Falcon, Custom DK, Wario in that D tier

Like if you want to play ZSS in this kind of meta you can, but Fox, MiiBrawler and Mario are pretty straight forward better at the things she likes to do so you might as well play them instead. Four of her worst matchups are the top 5 characters in the game. She is like the Brawl King DDD where certain characters can't fight her that are bad, but has super exploitable flaws by the characters that beat her all of which are top tier characters.

Like in that top 15 she outright loses to Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, MiiBrawler, Mario, Kirby, Diddy, Palutena for sure. She does okay vs. Rosaluma, Sonic, Luigi, Villager, Yoshi, Ness. MK, Lucario, Wario to where it's even or slightly advantageous/disadvantageous to the point of not mattering. She probably beats Custom DK. I'm not sold on Luigi being advantageous or even though, could be either way but you get where I'm going with this.

 

[Shaya]

I'd argue being disadvantaged to Palutena, and maybe Diddy. Non-paralyzer laser may patch up issues in neutral against Fox and Sheik slightly. [Tiny] Mii Brawler is satan, and custom mario is a disadvantage. Still not sure about losing to Kirby in customs, even with a threatening up-b... him having reasons to aggress doesn't suddenly make it better (imo).

 

[Aaron1997]

Abadango just beat Rain 2-0 going all Pac vs Sheik. And they said Sheik counters Pacman

 

[Teshie U]

Pacman has a nearly unrivaled camp game, I think westerners are just hoping no one camps has hard as abadango to make him good.

Probably the most entertaining zoning game out there too.



edit: pacman isnt really that viable though, abadango used more than just pac to reach the top

he seems to do well vs sheik and diddy though tbh

 

[Trifroze]

For reference, most tournaments I have played in used 13 stages with no starter/cp distinction and 4 bans in the CP phase with all custom sets legal. The 13 stages are MV, SV, FD, TC, DP, CS, DH, KJ, DL, PS2, SL, WI, LC.

S: Sheik (upgrade side special and neutral special)
A: Fox (twisting fox and falco blaster), Pikachu (heavy skull bash and thunderwave), MiiBrawler (helicopter kick and tiny speed mode), Rosaluma (luma warp/lucky charm shots)
B: Sonic (hammer spin dash is broke and multi springs helps some camping), Mario (super broken combo off Uair to kill upsecial like boost kick but much better), Villager (exploding balloons and tripping sapling), Luigi (default but crazy good), Yoshi (the super egglay but otherwise really good default)
C: Ness (would be higher but the Rosaluma matchup makes things problematic, like without rosa he would be top 5 for certain), Custom Palutena

ZSS is then on par with Custom Kirby, Custom Lucario, MK, Custom Diddy, Custom Falcon, Custom DK, Wario in that D tier

Like if you want to play ZSS in this kind of meta you can, but Fox, MiiBrawler and Mario are pretty straight forward better at the things she likes to do so you might as well play them instead. Four of her worst matchups are the top 5 characters in the game. She is like the Brawl King DDD where certain characters can't fight her that are bad, but has super exploitable flaws by the characters that beat her all of which are top tier characters.

Like in that top 15 she outright loses to Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, MiiBrawler, Mario, Kirby, Diddy, Palutena for sure. She does okay vs. Rosaluma, Sonic, Luigi, Villager, Yoshi, Ness. MK, Lucario, Wario to where it's even or slightly advantageous/disadvantageous to the point of not mattering. She probably beats Custom DK. I'm not sold on Luigi being advantageous or even though, could be either way but you get where I'm going with this.

This is the same meta I play in two thirds of the tournaments I go to, and as far as I'm concerned ZSS gets more or as much out of customs as Sheik, Luigi, Yoshi, Ness, Lucario, MK and Falcon. Most specifically custom Lucario and custom Falcon aren't actual...things, for the lack of a better term. Lucario has no reason to trade his default AS away except possibly in some matchups for piercing, and all his other customs are pretty much worthless. Falcon gets literally nothing worth switching to out of customs unless you want to trade raptor boost's landing trap capabilities for custom side b 3's out-of-hitstun momentum bug that gives you a long horizontal but very telegraphed recovery, and LFK for the infinite that is unrealistically difficult to perform on 90% of the cast while being challenging to even set up on anyone.

Luigi, Yoshi, Ness and MK get "alternative nice things" at best that help in certain matchups, like Yoshi's egg launch which wrecks characters with bad recoveries but it's otherwise useless and it's a trade-off for an already good special. Ness gets a slightly improved recovery while letting go of the strengths default PKT has in advantage, and let's face it, no one ever gimps Ness' recovery anyway - if they did he might struggle to be considered even top 10 in the default meta. Sheik gets a better side b but ZSS' custom side b works similarly, while Sheik's custom neutral b has its benefits and drawbacks just like ZSS' falco laser custom.

Rosalina gets noticeable benefit but nothing that fundamentally changes her ability to perform from my experience. Custom Diddy I haven't experienced that often because our Diddy main at the time, #2 on PR, chose not to use customs thinking they're not worth it. Mii Brawler is strong, however ZSS does not lose to him if you play the matchup avoiding his grab while outspacing him. Brawler's BnB also has unreliable consistency compared to ZSS.

Pikachu's customs can be disgusting together but he cannot use his paralyzing neutral b safely if he wants to be within its range unless he's literally 2 jumps high in the air more than half a stage across in which case you should never get hit by it, plus you can easily dash in upon anticipation and punish it if it happens or cancel your dash if it doesn't. HSB is "dumb" with pretty much no drawbacks and it hurts if you get hit by it, but as far as I know there aren't ways to land it without a read.

Fox's spinning up b is like Diddy's custom barrel except harder to land, it may work on someone once or twice and then it won't ever again. He truly has better options for killing, although the custom up b may work in teams. I think his default lasers are perfectly fine and better in many ways than his falco lasers, especially after the endlag reduction.

Mario's fire punch is pretty ridiculous and shouldn't exist on a character like Mario, since from what I know it's inescapeable and kills at a certain percent range, although no earlier than ZSS' BnB (since you made the comparison that with customs other characters do the things she does but better). It also negatively impacts Mario's recovery so it's not without some exploitable drawbacks. Still Mario lands grabs pretty easily, so I keep wondering why didn't Mario get more results at EVO. Am I missing something? Probably not.

EVO and literally all the tournaments I've been in plus some custom Xanadus I watched back when they were happening, the same default characters dominated the top spots and customs really don't change the meta that much except in the case of a few characters. Custom specials are rarely good if the default moves aren't already good, and specials are rarely enough to make or break a character. Palutena, Villager, DK and perhaps WFT seem like frontrunners for that, but none of them get anything close to a top tier status due to customs.

 

[Xeze]

Mario's fire punch is pretty ridiculous and shouldn't exist on a character like Mario, since from what I know it's inescapeable and kills at a certain percent range, although no earlier than ZSS' BnB (since you made the comparison that with customs other characters do the things she does but better). It also negatively impacts Mario's recovery so it's not without some exploitable drawbacks. Still Mario lands grabs pretty easily, so I keep wondering why didn't Mario get more results at EVO. Am I missing something? Probably not.

It also makes Mario's recovery way worse, so most of the time people don't use it and prefer the regular up B which is a solid combo finisher and keeps his recovery intact.
At EVO the only relevant Mario rep was Ally and he refused to use customs.

 

[TriTails]

It also makes Mario's recovery way worse, so most of the time people don't use it and prefer the regular up B which is a solid combo finisher and keeps his recovery intact.
At EVO the only relevant Mario rep was Ally and he refused to use customs.

I thought Shocking Cape is good? Fast Fireballs also I've heard but I haven't tried that out..

 

[Nu~]

edit: pacman isnt really that viable though, abadango used more than just pac to reach the top

he seems to do well vs sheik and diddy though tbh

Abadango had secondaries primarily for sheik and Rosa. He even said on stream that he believes that rosa is only a 40:60 in Rosa's favor, but goes wario because the Pacman v Rosa matchup takes a long time (and he doesn't even use pellet healing for some reason). Also, he believes that wario destroys rosa.

He never used Pacman against sheik because he thought she was a hard counter, but now that he finally believed in himself...he may not pick up meta knight after all.

 

[Xeze]

I thought Shocking Cape is good? Fast Fireballs also I've heard but I haven't tried that out..

Yes it is good. Fast fireballs also help on certain MUs. Ally just refused to use customs altogether because he doesn't like them.

 

[Routa]

5 months ago people claimed that Gust Cape is one of the best customs... Yet no one uses it.

But seriously Gust Cape was/is overrated. It is only useful for gimping, but then again you can do the same with normal cape or go for the straight ko with Shocking Cape.

I just love how people over praise some customs (namely Wind Dong and Fist Ganondorf).

 

[TriTails]

Yes it is good. Fast fireballs also help on certain MUs. Ally just refused to use customs altogether because he doesn't like them.

Which is wierd. It's a win or lose. Mario is so much better with a legit killing move in midair instead of racking up 87583457826% before you can kill with an U-air or B-air. D-air? It destroys itself in the face of F3 aerials (But is really good otherwise).

But lots of top players dislike customs. I asked Vinnie on one occasion and his opinion on customs are '(I'm) Anti-customs. Hope they're dead'. Ally doesn't use them, Abadango doesn't use them, Mr. CC is probably already traumatized by the misfire, ZeRo also doesn't use them? I recall?, etc, etc.

 

[adom4]

5 months ago people claimed that Gust Cape is one of the best customs... Yet no one uses it.

But seriously Gust Cape was/is overrated. It is only useful for gimping, but then again you can do the same with normal cape or go for the straight ko with Shocking Cape.

I just love how people over praise some customs (namely Wind Dong and Fist Ganondorf).

It's not like those are bad customs though, but i do agree that people overpraise them a bit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The high skill density in Japan [a lot of players or on a very similar level] often causes results to come off as somehat random. Abadango has placed 13th or lower in the last 4 or 5 Umebura tournaments, now he suddenly wins out of nowhere [I do believe it's his first ever tournament victory as well!]. Yuzu and Umeki who both beat Nietono at the last Umebura place 25th and 17th respectively this time and players hardly known outside of Japan like Bafuto and Paseriman can outplace the likes of Earth and Brood ... in Japan stuff like that happens all the time. Very happy for Abadango.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Rocket Barrel Attack is a real good custom for Diddy, and so is Explosive Rocket Barrel. Am pretty sure Giant Peanut also has it's uses for edgeguarding and matchups where Diddy won't be using the regular Peanut Popgun anyway. But they are mostly novelity moves, I agree. However, Rocket Barrel Attack Diddy might really hold some potential, cause this move is just as good as killing, if not better than the old Hoo-Hah. Am considering using Rocket Barrel Attack in my matches against Marios.

 

[outfoxd]

Zigzag changes DHs entire game and gives him a kill confirm, from what I hear and see. All the tournaments around me are default so i never put in the time myself
Snag is nice. Like having recovery with a hitbox.

 

[Smog Frog]

can we discuss how amazing physics are? and how ass physics are?(i feel that physics are one of the main reasons he's bad; other being his dysfunctional kit)

physics being: character attributes

 

[~ Gheb ~]

can we discuss how amazing physics are? and how *** physics are?

Wario's physics are amazing.
Mewtwo's physics are ***.

...

/discussion

 

[FullMoon]

So Some got Greninja in top 8 in Umebura while aMSa drowned in pools.

These wifi warrior Greninja need to show up in tournaments more often lol

 

[bc1910]

So Some got Greninja in top 8 in Umebura while aMSa drowned in pools.

These wifi warrior Greninja need to show up in tournaments more often lol

I really think aMSa focuses on Melee so much that he doesn't put the necessary time into Sm4sh to place well. Which is fine but it's good to see another Greninja player outperforming him. I don't think aMSa plays the game enough to push Greninja to the levels he can get to.

Is there a link to the bracket or stream?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. http://challonge.com/umebura19

Jeez, he tied with Rain.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Some isn't a wifi warrior. He's been attending offline tournaments since the earliest days of Brawl.

Edit: http://challonge.com/Umebura19T/ <- translated bracket of Umebura 19.

 

[bc1910]

Some isn't a wifi warrior. He's been attending offline tournaments since the earliest days of Brawl.

Edit: http://challonge.com/Umebura19T/ <- translated bracket of Umebura 19.

Do you know who Abadango was using? Wario/Pacman/both?

 

[Nu~]

Do you know who Abadango was using? Wario/Pacman/both?

I know he went all Pacman in top 8.

Defeating both Rain and Shu.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I didn't watch the stream but heard he went all Pac-Man.

The other Sheik player he'd beat was Shu.

 

[FullMoon]

Some isn't a wifi warrior. He's been attending offline tournaments since the earliest days of Brawl.

Edit: http://challonge.com/Umebura19T/ <- translated bracket of Umebura 19.

Is that so? Most footage I saw of Some were apparently online tournaments.

Granted, I don't really look for videos very often.

 

[warionumbah2]

So Some got Greninja in top 8 in Umebura while aMSa drowned in pools.

These wifi warrior Greninja need to show up in tournaments more often lol

is it this guy?