Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Kaladin]

On Lucina and her redundancy: increase the damage on Marth's tipper slightly. Reduce the damage on all of Lucina's moves slightly. Make all of Lucina's moves have 2-4 frames less startup and endlag.

Done.

 

[Luco]

Oh my goodness, I've been on camp and have literally missed half of this thread.

It sounds strange, but what are the latest meta developments? Any notable new techs or revelations? It would take a literal age to go through everything, so hopefully anything interesting can be summed up real quick?

 

[Nu~]

Oh my goodness, I've been on camp and have literally missed half of this thread.

It sounds strange, but what are the latest meta developments? Any notable new techs or revelations? It would take a literal age to go through everything, so hopefully anything interesting can be summed up real quick?

Does this count?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Does this count?

What's giving pacman that extra distance? Can you b reverse an item afterwards and keep the momentum?

 

[Amadeus9]

What's giving pacman that extra distance? Can you b reverse an item afterwards and keep the momentum?

From the video description

woah, didnt expect such an influx of views for this. we're discussing this on smashboards right now. basically we're making sure to not walk, jump, or run after we spawn so we retain an odd momentum glitch with our side b. hold a direction after performing side b and you'll be propelled in the that direction. make sure to land during the animation, i fast fall before holding the direction to ensure this. if you turn around, dash, or jump in any way the glitch stops. there are some exceptions and we're still exploring this tech.

 

[Nu~]

What's giving pacman that extra distance? Can you b reverse an item afterwards and keep the momentum?

To be honest, we don't know what causes it ^^;

All we know is that you can't run, jump, or get hit or the glitch is disabled.

You can crawl and walk though. We're still figuring things out.

Edit: the description is a little old. We recently found out that you can, in fact, walk.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So pacman is the buggiest smash 4 character ever. I see thanks for the responses.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So pacman is the buggiest smash 4 character ever. I see thanks for the responses.

I dunno, Toon Link comes close by making Lylat a complete joke by virtue of him being able to enlarge his upB hitboxes and straight up clipping through the wings when he recovers. It's silly.

 

[RayNoire]

People say Sm4sh doesn't have ATs, but really they just put them all on Pac-Man.

 

[Kaladin]

People say Sm4sh doesn't have ATs, but really they just put them all on Pac-Man.

At this point, Pac-man functions as Melee: the character.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Robin beats MOST characters? That's complete bull****!!!

I beat Dath pretty bad when we played if I'm remembering correctly. How can he possibly think vs is even? I literally can spring for days when she's offstage LOL. is faster then everything does.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You should also post that here. It's a waste to leave it on youtube.

Eh, not a MU that happens enough for me to really want to bother throwing it up here.

I'll just let one of them finally run into Ryo. Because he secondaries Robin and knows exactly how he works, lol. They'll be quickly saying 55-45 at least for Ike afterwards.

 

[Djent]

@Sinister Slush The tourney was Karisuma 4, which was only ~64 people, and I don't think he had any top-level wins there.

 

[C0rvus]

I wonder if I should have just stuck with Robin. He seems worth pursuing now, and every time I watch good Robins play, I start getting into it. But then I try to play him in tournament and get rolled by random players.

Although that last bit hasn't changed much since switching off of him. Still working on that. Guess that means it wasn't the character necessarily.

Anyone else hitting a plateau super hard?

 

[Blobface]

Oh my goodness, I've been on camp and have literally missed half of this thread.

It sounds strange, but what are the latest meta developments? Any notable new techs or revelations? It would take a literal age to go through everything, so hopefully anything interesting can be summed up real quick?

I found Ganondorf's Tipman knockback can be used to extend combos and land jab locks, since it always slides people along the ground regardless of %. It can push people into an untechable fall off a platform for followups, including jab locks.

Here's an example of it being used on a Human Player.

 

[Dathx]

I beat Dath pretty bad when we played if I'm remembering correctly. How can he possibly think vs is even? I literally can spring for days when she's offstage LOL. is faster then everything does.

@ Seagull Joe
I've been going even with True Blue here. Your win against me was pretty solid, but it was also right after my stream match that I literally threw away, so my mentality was not the best. I'm not going to let one set dictate the MU. Definitely interested in playing again though.

 

[Djent]

Some late Umebura 18 videos feature some unusual MUs:
vs.
vs. (G1) and
vs.

EDIT: SSBWiki says Nairo, Ally, and Vinnie are going to Umebura FAT. I know Ally is confirmed, but what about the other two? Vinnie was considering it but I never saw anything official.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Oh my goodness, I've been on camp and have literally missed half of this thread.

It sounds strange, but what are the latest meta developments? Any notable new techs or revelations? It would take a literal age to go through everything, so hopefully anything interesting can be summed up real quick?

It was discovered recently that moves with a hitlag modifier of >1 now have less shield lag when striking an opponent's shield, effectively making them safer. It was a change from the 1.1.0 patch that we didn't initially notice. You can check the 1.1.0 community patch notes thread for more details.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I think [DIO] got 4th at some japanese tournament, so that's ok I guess. Aiba kinda disappeared off the face of the Earth though.

Also realized everyone stopped mentioning Yoshidora as a "top" japanese Yoshi, mostly cause he was online only lol

Never knew Yoshidora was wifi only lol. Welp

 

[Vipermoon]

It was discovered recently that moves with a hitlag modifier of >1 now have less shield lag when striking an opponent's shield, effectively making them safer. It was a change from the 1.1.0 patch that we didn't initially notice. You can check the 1.1.0 community patch notes thread for more details.

To add:
So basically Marth and Ryu players are really happy and Lucina players now have absolutely zero reason to be using her (to win).

 

[san.]

I think it helps Ryu the most. Safety on shield was his biggest weakness and now it seems pretty average for his ground moves and actually good with his aerials. That's why I think Ryu is a little underrated since we haven't thought about the difference in Ryu's safety from 1.0.8 to 1.1.0. Ryu players have also been playing without that knowledge and have more options available to them.

 

[Mario766]

Doesn't that change also make Ike safer on shield? That's pretty big for Ike since that's one of his major weaknesses for unspaced moves.

 

[san.]

Doesn't that change also make Ike safer on shield? That's pretty big for Ike since that's one of his major weaknesses for unspaced moves.

Just his dash attack by 2 frames. It's more noticeable than you think since the hitlag made it susceptible to jabs and possibly grabs and now they're pushed back 2 frames earlier. Still not much.

 

[Vipermoon]

I think it helps Ryu the most. Safety on shield was his biggest weakness and now it seems pretty average for his ground moves and actually good with his aerials. That's why I think Ryu is a little underrated since we haven't thought about the difference in Ryu's safety from 1.0.8 to 1.1.0. Ryu players have also been playing without that knowledge and have more options available to them.

Combine that with, in my opinion, the most useful shield breaker in the game and Ryu isn't that weak against shields.

Doesn't that change also make Ike safer on shield? That's pretty big for Ike since that's one of his major weaknesses for unspaced moves.

Most of Ike's attacks don't have hitlag modifiers so it doesn't help him much. I think only his Dash Attack and a custom side B are affected.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wonder if I should have just stuck with Robin. He seems worth pursuing now, and every time I watch good Robins play, I start getting into it. But then I try to play him in tournament and get rolled by random players.

Although that last bit hasn't changed much since switching off of him. Still working on that. Guess that means it wasn't the character necessarily.

Anyone else hitting a plateau super hard?

I felt that way with Sheik.

After the switch to Ryu I feel myself getting stronger after every session.

 

[C0rvus]

I felt that way with Sheik.

After the switch to Ryu I feel myself getting stronger after every session.

Hopefully I'll find my Ryu soon. But things are about to slow down on the Smash 4 front. The neighboring university has a Melee weekly and a PM weekly, so those may be my focus for a while. Stuck with Toon Link for a good while. I felt like I was going somewhere, but it stopped dead right before SKTAR. Haven't clicked with him since. Unsure of whether to press on or try new (or old) characters.

How do you guys deal with this? So many players just seem to click with their character and make the rest work. Others struggle but keep going for the love of their character. Maybe I need to change things outside of the game first.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Are there any major Smash 4 tourneys going on this weekend? If not, *selfish plug* we have Show Me Your Moves 16 going on Clash Tournaments this Saturday. I know people say that the Midwest of America is weak, but we out here showing our best. Hope yall see it.

 

[Fuerzo]

Are there any major Smash 4 tourneys going on this weekend? If not, *selfish plug* we have Show Me Your Moves 16 going on Clash Tournaments this Saturday. I know people say that the Midwest of America is weak, but we out here showing our best. Hope yall see it.

PAX

 

[Seagull Joe]

@ Seagull Joe
I've been going even with True Blue here. Your win against me was pretty solid, but it was also right after my stream match that I literally threw away, so my mentality was not the best. I'm not going to let one set dictate the MU. Definitely interested in playing again though.

Fair enough.

 

[Man Li Gi]

PAX

Yeah, the to told Zero was gonna come but there was Pax going on. Really dunno how to feel about that.

 

[Djent]

Just watched a string a from 0-mid% without letting him land. It was very Brawl. @ Shaya is now having flashbacks.

Anyway, Ally is in California (probably for Paragon & an easier Umebura flight).

 

[Kofu]

G&W's usmash is actually foolproof safe on shield, actually giving you frame advantage if you charge it which is kinda silly for this game (EDIT: nevermind, didn't realize charging a smash doesn't increase shieldstun, just pushback, or it increases both shieldstun and hitlag so either way it doesn't give you frame advantage).

I made a list of smashes that are absolutely safe on shield a while ago and how many frames you have to punish them if we don't take pushback or range into account. Might've missed some but I was surprised at some of them:

Spoiler

ZSS:
Down smash: 4
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced
- cannot be punished after perfect shielding because of range
- for some reason Wario's dash attack can't punish this despite progressing instantaneously and supposedly being frame 4 (EDIT: apparently it doesn't progress instantaneously, it's frame 5 if Wario hits you when he lands onto the ground)

Meta Knight:
Forward smash: 5
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback
- cannot be punished by jabs after perfect shielding because of range

Ness:
Down smash front hit: 4
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced
- cannot be punished after powershielding first hit + spotdodging/rolling

Captain Falcon:
Down smash second hit: 5
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback
- cannot be punished by jabs after perfect shielding because of range

G&W:
Up smash: 1
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Villager:
Forward smash: 3
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Ganondorf:
Up smash: 4
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Lucario:
Forward smash: 15
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced because of pushback

Mega Man:
Forward smash: -
- cannot be punished by anything from around max range
- cannot be punished after perfect shielding because of range

USmash is safe to throw out (it often works as a baiting tool tbh) but it usually won't connect because of its slow speed and tiny hitbox. You either have to get a good read or use its invincibility frames to counterattack if you want it to hit. Nice list, though!

 

[Dre89]

I heard the general consensus is that Tink is better than Link. Could someone explain please, looking at their kits I thought Link was better

 

[Blobface]

@Trifroze how recent is that list? Could some of them have been made safer by the hitlag changes?

 

[Patriot Duck]

@Trifroze how recent is that list? Could some of them have been made safer by the hitlag changes?

According to this, Meta Knight's Fsmash and the second hit of Falcon's Dsmash have hitlag modifiers of >1, which means they got even safer on shield with this patch.

Edit: Fixed link.

 

[Kofu]

Some late Umebura 18 videos feature some unusual MUs:
vs.
vs. (G1) and
vs.

EDIT: SSBWiki says Nairo, Ally, and Vinnie are going to Umebura FAT. I know Ally is confirmed, but what about the other two? Vinnie was considering it but I never saw anything official.

Just watched the Rosalina/Game & Watch and Meta Knight/Villager matches. The first one kind of shows how Luma, Rosalina's disjoints (some of them transcendent), and Luma work together to make Game & Watch's life hell. That said, Songun was making it a point to try to get Luma out of the picture as much as possible, which unfortunately often left him vulnerable left to counterattack by Rosalina.

The second match was interesting. I was genuinely amused when both players went from one ledge to the other. I noticed that Ranai rarely used Lloid while grounded. He usually used it to aid his recovery or to help him land, only throwing it out in neutral when he had a good amount of distance between him and his opponent. Instead he opted for empty low jumps and fastfalled FAirs, something that other Villager players would do well to note. Jab 1 to axe was nice to see (I believe it is a true combo against most characters at high percents since jab scales with damage) as was his B-Reversed axe to fell the tree and use of the growing hitbox to land a kill on the ledge. Great stuff overall.

 

[Nobie]

I know I talk a lot about neutral game, but I think it's because it didn't truly click for me until recently, and from that perspective I can relate to where people are coming from.

As previously established, a lot of Smash players don't know what a neutral game really is. The reason why, is because they usually see the neutral game merely as a means to an end, rather than a game state in and of itself. Here's what I mean:

Sometimes I will see people say, "This character has a good neutral game, because they can combo off of a hit so well." Good combos aren't a good neutral: once you've hit the opponent, you're generally in an advantaged state. Good combos mean good advantages. Being able to land that FIRST hit to start the combo reliably, that's good neutral.

I will also see people remark that a character has a good neutral because they have an excellent punish game, which usually means converting an opponent's whiff or shielded attack or whatever into a long string of attacks for high damage. Again, the retaliation after a successful defensive maneuver isn't the neutral game. The chain of decisions that led you to picking the right defensive option and forcing your opponent to commit to an attack they didn't want - that's a neutral game.

I think misunderstanding this is what leads to some common odd ideas about characters in Smash 4. For example, I've seen people make comments like, "Marth has a bad neutral because he has no guaranteed followups" and because he can't short hop aerial. Conversely, I've seen people say that "Roy has good neutral becaus ehe has this throw combos."

The first step to helping people learn Smash 4 might just be to get them to wrap their heads around the fact that neutral is not just what happens in between combos.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sort of cheating by counting the Pits as one (they are legitimately more different now with DP's arrow buff) but I just wanted to show Ike was next.

Dark Pit's arrow buff did squat. Pit's arrow buff made the gap bigger, but didn't really make them more separate.

On Lucina and her redundancy: increase the damage on Marth's tipper slightly. Reduce the damage on all of Lucina's moves slightly. Make all of Lucina's moves have 2-4 frames less startup and endlag.

Done.

Wouldn't that make Marth redundant? Either way I don't think that would fix the redundancy problem...

 

[C0rvus]

In trying to get my friends to improve, the idea of game states is in my opinion the biggest step towards becoming a competent player. Anyone can learn to throw bananas at people and follow up, or recover properly, or know what their moves do. It's when you start to think of the game in that manner; playing neutral then pressing your advantage through positioning as well as followups. Getting your mind involved in the game on that level improves your understanding of the game, and brings your ability to play mind games up to a higher level as well.

This step is also very hard. I don't even fully comprehend it myself, let alone know how to explain it to players who have no idea about it. I also worry it may be premature to try and get them to think about this sort of thing. Sort of like when new Melee players focus too much on wavedashing and then have no clue on how to use it properly.

 

[Blobface]

So I started messing around with some stuff and I think the hitlag changes applied to Ryu and friends in 1.1.0 may have also applied to long hitlag attacks in general, which would make heavies in general a lot safer on shield. I have no way to verify this though, so it'd be great if someone could disprove/prove this.