Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Rikkhan]

Would adding LTC3 and SKTAR as well as the last Japanese and European regional make sense? As well as The Summit (Canada) if that counts as important enough for the list.

I could add them, the only problem is the character usage is incomplete.

 

[Routa]

But seriously what is the definition of "Viable character"? Is character solo viable if it has more than 75% neutral and/or favourable MUs? Or is character solo viable when it does not get rekt by top tier characters?

 

[Antonykun]

I still don't get why people correlate results specifically to tier lists so often...

If you are going to make one based on results, then do just that and run with it. However, if we are going to talk about character viability, potential and matchups then what is the point?

Actual player skill is far too big of a variable for results to hold much weight on discusion that is primarily about the characters themselves and how they interact with other characters

not only is actual player skill is a variable but also whether or not there are players who do amazing with them on whatever you are basing your results on.
Like I'm 99% sure Pikachu would not be in top 5 in people's heads if ESAM didn't exists

 

[Sir Tundra]

lol a huge mistake mate.

Oh dear I better fix that right away

 

[Rikkhan]

I still don't get why people correlate results specifically to tier lists so often...

If you are going to make one based on results, then do just that and run with it. However, if we are going to talk about character viability, potential and matchups then what is the point?

Actual player skill is far too big of a variable for results to hold much weight on discusion that is primarily about the characters themselves and how they interact with other characters

Using results tell another another story, one that could be neglected by pretty much bias and "feelings", for example the diddy nerf bias, or people overrating a character I mean if that character is that good how come no one gets results with him? how come the best X player gets wrecked against a top character when people are agreeing the matchup is 60:40 in favor? results test if the theorycraft is rigth. If there is something wrong between these two, you need to rethink and consider that maybe the theory is wrong.

 

[NegaNixx]

I still don't get why people correlate results specifically to tier lists so often...

If you are going to make one based on results, then do just that and run with it. However, if we are going to talk about character viability, potential and matchups then what is the point?

Actual player skill is far too big of a variable for results to hold much weight on discusion that is primarily about the characters themselves and how they interact with other characters

When looking at results in terms of tier list I personally only look at the A ranked players. The ones who can make it to top 8 at a Major or Top 32 at an event like EVO consistently. I exclude Zero because he's an outlier and his characters are otherwise represented (Mr. R, Vinnie, False for Shiek, MVD, Angel Cortez for Diddy) and see how they stack up in that level of play (From #2-#32). I'd use top 8 more often if it didn't only offer a very small selection of Characters.

It changes the possible gap from "ZeRo-ShiekGuy2015" to "Mr. R-False" as well as shortens the army of Shiek (example) representation so that it can compare more kindly to the sole High Level Pikachu representation (ESAM) and therefore allows a more accurate representation of the current state of competition.

 

[Djent]

Courtesy of 9B:

 

[Ffamran]

A set knockback to let it kill similar to Rosa's and/or give a better angle to frame trap for more upairs OR a rest punish would make her perfect imo... That or a throw set-up for upair to give her more opportunities to condition people to air dodge the upair. Not even a true combo, just a good ***-angle where they HAVE to eat the uair or risk getting rested.

Rosalina & Luma's Uairs don't have set knockback - they would need weighted knockback somewhere - unless you're talking about setting the knockback to be similar to theirs. Jigglypuff as of now has a frame 9-21, 13 active frames, 9%, 88 hit angle, 30 base, and 100 growth Uair. It lingers, but it's kind of like a Bowser or DK Uair except Jigglypuff's small and DK does 13% while Bowser does 15% and both have their heads intangible during their Uairs. Rosalina's in contrast is a frame 8-29, 20 active frames, with a clean hit at frames 8-10 that does 10%, a mid-later hit at frames 11-21 that does 5%, and a late hit at frames 22-29 that does 2%. All hits send people up at 88 degrees, the first two have a base of 40 and growth of 98 while the late hit has a base of 20 and growth of 30. Luma's is frames 3-10, does 4%, sends people either 108 or 92 degrees, has a base of 110, and a growth of 60.

What they could to Jigglypuff is either reduce the total frames from 44 to say, 39. This would let her act at frame 40 instead of 45. It would become more usable in a sense she won't have to commit heavily to a move with some range compared to her Nair which covers her entire body. The issue with that is the lingering frames... Usually with moves with lingering frames, they're either multi-hits like Zelda's Nair or they're broken up into early hits and late hits like Mario's Nair. They could make it so it's like Captain Falcon's Uair where the late hits are weaker, but send people in different angles. So, say at frame 9-12, it does 11% and sends people at a 68 degree angle, frames 13-16 does 9% and sends people up at 88 degrees, and frames 17-21 does 7% and sends people at 102 degrees. They could also just speed it up by say 2 frames so it's frame 7. At the same time, I don't know how Jigglypuff works, so all of these ideas could be detrimental or push her to insanity.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Could someone explain to me why Dedede is considered lower tier than Bowser? I need to clarify, I'm not gonna say he's "SUPER UNDERRATED" or some crap, I just don't understand what Bowser has over Dedede.

 

[wedl!!]

because bowser has an actual advantaged state and isn't about resetting to neutral and outplaying the opponent, which doesn't work that well in high-level play. plus, his mobility is significantly better, and he has better frame data. whirling fortress allows him to better alleviate pressure than d3 would ever hope to be able to do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No idea, his worst matchups are rare in the metagame

Curious about which matchups you're talking about. ZSS, Fox, Rosalina, Diddy and Yoshi are all bad matchups for G&W and only the latter can be really considered "rare". Pikachu and Ness on the other hand - his most manageable op and high tier matchups - are actually rare.

Although you're probably more experimented/knowledgeable than I am with the character, and I definitely see his on stage killing potential to be more lacking than some. If anything needs to be buffed (outside of his weight), that'd be it, because his overall kit is fundamentally solid.

I think the importance of being able to close out stocks reliably cannot be overstated though because at the end of they day that's what smash is all about. If you struggle to finish stocks and are particularly vulernable to have your own stocks finished off fast then you have the two weaknesses that stand in strongest contradiction to what this game is all about. These weaknesses weigh far heavier than, say, having a sub-par grab or throw game.

I keep seeing people talk about Yoshis in Japan doing well but never actually see any results. I hope this isn't one of those Japan is godlike and everyone is just going with it things. Does anyone have any brackets?

That's a misconclusion a lot of people draw. They see Yoshi being ranked high on japanese tier lists and thus think that he must have outstanding results when he doesn't. The only Yoshi players that do reasonably well in Japan are Dio and Aiba and neither of them is particularly good. So ... you didn't actually miss out on anything.

 

[DunnoBro]

because bowser has an actual advantaged state and isn't about resetting to neutral and outplaying the opponent, which doesn't work that well in high-level play. plus, his mobility is significantly better, and he has better frame data. whirling fortress allows him to better alleviate pressure than d3 would ever hope to be able to do.

Better disadvantage state by far too.

Also great grab, throw, and a command grab that kills is just superb for this meta.

Edit: Or rather a kill throw. His throws aren't that great aside from that.

 

[Trifroze]

Uh are we thinking of the same character here? One of his biggest problems is his inability to safely and consistently land kill moves. USmash is quite safe but has a very small hitbox and his smashes in general are very slow for their lack of power, especially when not sweetspotted. It's probably for the best that USmash is slow (third slowest in the game) but leaves him unable to really threaten opponents out of shield. Outside of smashes his moves lack KO power. It's telling that his only consistent kill setup, DThrow to UAir, has a very small range of viability, after which you pretty much have to read an airdodge to get UAir to land properly. If you're killing early you're probably edgeguarding (something he's admittedly very good at). But in general you won't be landing many kill moves against characters and players who play safe.

If he could kill more reliably he'd be a lot better.

G&W's usmash is actually foolproof safe on shield, actually giving you frame advantage if you charge it which is kinda silly for this game (EDIT: nevermind, didn't realize charging a smash doesn't increase shieldstun, just pushback, or it increases both shieldstun and hitlag so either way it doesn't give you frame advantage).

I made a list of smashes that are absolutely safe on shield a while ago and how many frames you have to punish them if we don't take pushback or range into account. Might've missed some but I was surprised at some of them:

Spoiler

ZSS:
Down smash: 4
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced
- cannot be punished after perfect shielding because of range
- for some reason Wario's dash attack can't punish this despite progressing instantaneously and supposedly being frame 4 (EDIT: apparently it doesn't progress instantaneously, it's frame 5 if Wario hits you when he lands onto the ground)

Meta Knight:
Forward smash: 5
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback
- cannot be punished by jabs after perfect shielding because of range

Ness:
Down smash front hit: 4
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced
- cannot be punished after powershielding first hit + spotdodging/rolling

Captain Falcon:
Down smash second hit: 5
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback
- cannot be punished by jabs after perfect shielding because of range

G&W:
Up smash: 1
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Villager:
Forward smash: 3
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Ganondorf:
Up smash: 4
- cannot be punished by anything because of pushback

Lucario:
Forward smash: 15
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced because of pushback

Mega Man:
Forward smash: -
- cannot be punished by anything from around max range
- cannot be punished after perfect shielding because of range

Yes at least the data suggest that people are overrating diddy nerfs and also top 2-3 are highly debated, diddy, sonic, rosalina have better results but ZSS and Pikachu have better players.

I also commented on ZSS and Pikachu being 2nd and 3rd a while ago asking whether the characters really deserve those placings or if it's just Nairo and ESAM. That said ZSS also has Choco in Japan and plenty of good reps on the regional level, but Pikachu is only really being carried by one man as far as I'm aware. Why is he third again? I agree ZSS and Pikachu both have strong theory behind them but there's only so far theory can carry you.

 

[C0rvus]

But how is Dedede's advantaged state bad? He gets a lot off of grabs, resets at low percent, etc. Plus he can cover ledge options like a machine. Bowser's better movement speed, better safety, and ability to alleviate pressure clearly make him better, but I see nothing that makes Bowser's advantaged state better.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS:
Down smash: 4
- cannot be punished by anything if spaced
- cannot be punished after perfect shielding because of range
- for some reason Wario's dash attack can't punish this despite progressing instantaneously and supposedly being frame 4

I think that's because dash attack cannot come out on the same frame as a dash so from a stand still a frame 4 dash attack comes out on frame 5 or something.

 

[bc1910]

I still don't get why people correlate results specifically to tier lists so often...

If you are going to make one based on results, then do just that and run with it. However, if we are going to talk about character viability, potential and matchups then what is the point?

Actual player skill is far too big of a variable for results to hold much weight on discusion that is primarily about the characters themselves and how they interact with other characters

I agree wholeheartedly. Everything anyone says in this thread is usually followed by "yeah but no results".

Results are important. We KNOW how important they are. And we know which characters are actually getting notable results at top level nationals (read: not many). So can we not also look at the broader picture? I have no issue with discussing results but I don't think constantly drawing back to them gets us anywhere.

It's so easy to make a tier list based on results. Just build some kind of points system, slap the characters in order and boom. Done. Discussion over.

No-one's saying results shouldn't be considered but I think this thread usually neglects character potential in favour of them. The weighting should be a little more balanced.

My guess at top 15:

Spoiler

S:
A+
A:
A-

Reasoning:

Spoiler

S is for Sheik. A+ means close Sheik MU + no other crippling flaws. A means at least one crap MU but still potent & potentially invalidating to lower tiers. A- is several bad MUs but still a large tourney threat.

This is for the purpose of constructing a more accurate list off of weighted MUs. Are there any other characters I should include for this purpose?

Nice list. You and I have exactly the same top 15, though ordered differently.

Can I ask who your next 5 characters would be?

 

[Coffee™]

not only is actual player skill is a variable but also whether or not there are players who do amazing with them on whatever you are basing your results on.

Like I'm 99% sure Pikachu would not be in top 5 in people's heads if ESAM didn't exists

Exactly!

Using results tell another another story, one that could be neglected by pretty much bias and "feelings", for example the diddy nerf bias, or people overrating a character I mean if that character is that good how come no one gets results with him? how come the best X player gets wrecked against a top character when people are agreeing the matchup is 60:40 in favor? results test if the theorycraft is rigth. If there is something wrong between these two, you need to rethink and consider that maybe the theory is wrong.

People tend to be fairly biased towards and with results already. There’s enough evidence of that in this thread.


The player variable is simply too inconsistent to value it as highly as most people do in these tier or matchup discussions. Top players are still people and it’s not like they are going to make optimal decisions or know matchups in and out 100% of the time. If anything, results tend to tell you more about player matchups than it does about character ones.

When looking at results in terms of tier list I personally only look at the A ranked players. The ones who can make it to top 8 at a Major or Top 32 at an event like EVO consistently. I exclude Zero because he's an outlier and his characters are otherwise represented (Mr. R, Vinnie, False for Shiek, MVD, Angel Cortez for Diddy) and see how they stack up in that level of play (From #2-#32). I'd use top 8 more often if it didn't only offer a very small selection of Characters.


It changes the possible gap from "ZeRo-ShiekGuy2015" to "Mr. R-False" as well as shortens the army of Shiek (example) representation so that it can compare more kindly to the sole High Level Pikachu representation (ESAM) and therefore allows a more accurate representation of the current state of competition.

It’s better to compare these higher level players if you have to but at the end of the day you can’t say these players are of objectively equal skill level, so how can we even come close to say they are doing everything correctly or optimally in the matchup? Discussion concerning them also tends to digresses into bias pretty often as well.


Also, not every character even has A level representation.

 

[RayNoire]

The bias towards only results is pretty annoying and disrespectful to the low-tier heroes out there as well. Watching Mew^2 on stream is always painful for the commentator roller coaster ride afterwards.

*Mew^2 wins a match*

"Wow Mewtwo's definitely not low tier guys, look he can beat Sheik, this character's going places"

*Mew^2 loses a match*

"OH NOOOOO WHY SO LIGHT AND SO BAD"

 

[Djent]

Nice list. You and I have exactly the same top 15, though ordered differently.

Can I ask who your next 5 characters would be?

That's tough. I'd go with for now. I also think are good but don't know enough about them.

 

[DunnoBro]

The bias towards only results is pretty annoying and disrespectful to the low-tier heroes out there as well.

...If they aren't getting results then they ain't heroes bruh

 

[Seagull Joe]

Speaking of G&W... Why is he still considered to be in low tier? I mean he has the theory and results (GimR namely) for being in Mid tier.

I wouldn't use Gimr as the reason would be considered Mid Tier. His results are sporadic and not good at nationals.

Something that have been bothering me, based on tornament results there is some characters that are pretty much carried by a single player, for example Pikachu and ZSS are consistently placed in 2nd-3rd place in tier list, but if you remove Nairo and ESAM they will drop considerably in the other hand characters like Rosalina, Sonic and Diddy are consisntly getting into top 32 in any major with several players.

if we go for a character representation + results, a quick tier list will go like this:

Tournaments: CEO 2015, EVO 2015, Smashcon

Scale:
winning: 14 points
Top 4 : 13 points
Top 8: 12 points
Top 32: 11 points

1.- Sheik: 155
Zero, Mr.R, Vinnie, VS Master Raven, Rain, EMP Fresh Die Nasty, STVG Phuzix, False

2.- Rosalina: 115
Dabuz, falln, Neo, Xaltis, Nabster, Jester

3.- Diddy: 90
PG MVG | MVD, Tony, Angel Cortez, Pelca, VGBC|Logic

4.- Sonic: 88
TNS Static Manny, Chez (AWAL), NS Seagull Joe, 6WX, PHO | Mocha, Kai

5.- ZSS: 62
Nairo, VS NickRiddle

6.- Pikachu: 37
ESAM, NAKAT

7.- Ness: 35
Shaky, GW | FOW, OcO|MiK!

7.- Falcon: 35
Fatality, Max Ketchum

8.- Luigi: 33
Mr.ConCon, Muskduck, Poke

8.-Villager: 33
SFA SS, GT MJG, CaptAwesum

8.- Yoshi: 33
Poltergust, EE KDB, IQHQ|Raptor

9.- Fox: 24
UGC Larry Lurr

10: Mario: 23
Boreal_Ally, Anti

Notes:
- Its hard to measure some players, because their secondaries are as relevant as their main like UGC Larry Lurr(Fox, Sheik, Luigi), not sure if I should give points to secondaries.
- Do you know any other recent major that I should add?
- I used a single point difference in the scale to diminish the carrying effect of a single player.

My post is in general, while I realize you post about three specific "nationals". SSC was more of a regional then national. It had few out of state representatives and tons of MD/VA. CEO was mainly Florida with a sprinkle of out of state. EVO was customs legal so many results were skewed.
Some of those characters () just aren't used because they aren't fun or require a lot of commitment to be good with.

should have Snow, Feel Tension, and Megafox up there. is missing Marss and V115 who have incredibly good wins and placings.

I don't know why you listed Nakat for when he mainly uses and ...You're just lacking knowledge of full tourney results, which is ok, but there are many reasons for people's placements. I base my tier list's off of matchup spread, likely viability, and mainly results.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Sorry to go offtopic, but I want to ask something.

Why is Olimar considered a bigger threat than Villager? I personally think they should swap places, but I want to know what people think makes Olimar better than Villager or even Wario?

 

[RayNoire]

...If they aren't getting results then they ain't heroes bruh

...The point was that they are getting results beyond their character's tier. You out of anybody should understand.

It'll be better when people know a bit more about the game and aren't so prone to changing their opinion off of 1 game or even 1 stock. Especially since there's now actual consequences for the masses overrating and underrating characters.

 

[PK Gaming]

@Dathx and @ Raziek made an in-depth runthrough of all of Robin's matchups

It's 4 hours, but worth checking out

 

[Raziek]

@Dathx and @ Raziek made an in-depth runthrough of all of Robin's matchups

It's 4 hours, but worth checking out

As a disclaimer: 'in-depth' means about 5 minutes per character, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some characters we lack experience on so did not make any crazy claims or try to claim **** with no backing. Tried to minimize theory and maximize practical experience with strong players wherever possible.

 

[Routa]

I wouldn't use Gimr as the reason would be considered Mid Tier. His results are sporadic and not good at nationals.

Well he was first G&W main that came to my mind. But G&W does have the frame data and overall theory to be in mid tier. If you ask me saying the reason why he isn't in mid tier is his weight, I want to point out that we have Rosa&Luma in top tier so... Also as far as I know he has more results than lets say Peach or Lucario who are both solid high mid tier.

 

[Rikkhan]

I wouldn't use Gimr as the reason would be considered Mid Tier. His results are sporadic and not good at nationals.


My post is in general, while I realize you post about three specific "nationals". SSC was more of a regional then national. It had few out of state representatives and tons of MD/VA. CEO was mainly Florida with a sprinkle of out of state. EVO was customs legal so many results were skewed.
Some of those characters () just aren't used because they aren't fun or require a lot of commitment to be good with.

should have Snow, Feel Tension, and Megafox up there. is missing Marss and V115 who have incredibly good wins and placings.

I don't know why you listed Nakat for when he mainly uses and ...You're just lacking knowledge of full tourney results, which is ok, but there are many reasons for people's placements. I base my tier list's off of matchup spread, likely viability, and mainly results.

Yes I even said in my last post that some players are difficult to measure as they have secondaries as good as their mains, or they dont even have a main to begin (Trela) thats the flaw of my little point system I made, as for nakat well it was listed in his character usage pikachu > fox > ness so I assume his main was pikachu.

I'm aware of Snow and Feel Tension and Marss (dunno about V115) and their results, but they are nowhere in the tournament sample, I would be good expanding the sample to other relevant tournaments to have a more accurate data but that requires some research and some info is incomplete.

Lastly I'm not disregarding match-up analisys, whats I'm saying is compare results with theory does they fit? No? then there is something worth debating, for examaple pikachu and ZSS general agreement that they are top 2-3 or Diddy considered out of top 10, etc.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@Dathx and @ Raziek made an in-depth runthrough of all of Robin's matchups

It's 4 hours, but worth checking out

Who in the world is going to watch 4 hours of Robin MU discussion?

 

[Vipermoon]

@Dathx and @ Raziek made an in-depth runthrough of all of Robin's matchups

It's 4 hours, but worth checking out

Robin beats MOST characters? That's complete bull****!!!

 

[Routa]

Who in the world is going to watch 4 hours of Robin MU discussion?

People who have the time to tip the scales.

...

I can find the door myself.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin beats MOST characters? That's complete bull****!!!

The numbers aren't important (they rarely ever are) but the matchup discussion is legitimately interesting. They're not the end all be all, but Raziek/Dath have some good things to say imo.

 

[DunnoBro]

Who in the world is going to watch 4 hours of Robin MU discussion?

Get me cute girls explaining everything and I will

...Anime girls

 

[Trifroze]

Regi anyone ?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Robin beats MOST characters? That's complete bull****!!!

What characters are they claiming he beats? I'm interested in knowing but 4 hours is a lot of time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you just click through the video you can see the spreadsheet with the numbers they have for the MUs.

Its uh, a lot of characters. I predictably left a comment. You'll be able to pick it out pretty easily.

 

[Mario766]

They don't know the Ike MU, which makes sense. Ike does well because Robin's projectiles are too slow to form a proper wall and Ike out-spaces Robin. Robin is also 100 percent FREE off-stage. Robin can throw thunder at Ike but if Ike shields then Eruptions it's free, also he can just go down and spike him because Elwind has 0 hitbox besides below Robin, and he can't go above the stage because of end lag. Ike also can recover against Elfire because he will get sent up for a QD back. Ike can also punish Elfire's activation by jumping over it for either an aerial or grab. Ike gets combos off up throw until almost kill percent, then it becomes a read and huge stage control due to Robin being pitiful above the opponent. Robin also is really good combo food for Ike, surprising.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They don't know the Ike MU, which makes sense. Ike does well because Robin's projectiles are too slow to form a proper wall and Ike out-spaces Robin. Robin is also 100 percent FREE off-stage. Robin can throw thunder at Ike but if Ike shields then Eruptions it's free, also he can just go down and spike him because Elwind has 0 hitbox besides below Robin, and he can't go above the stage because of end lag. Ike also can recover against Elfire because he will get sent up for a QD back. Ike can also punish Elfire's activation by jumping over it for either an aerial or grab. Ike gets combos off up throw until almost kill percent, then it becomes a read and huge stage control due to Robin being pitiful above the opponent. Robin also is really good combo food for Ike, surprising.

Ya, I commented as much. I don't blame them for not knowing the MU if they've never faced a good one. But I uh, had to fix a few things they said.

 

[PK Gaming]

If you just click through the video you can see the spreadsheet with the numbers they have for the MUs.

Its uh, a lot of characters. I predictably left a comment. You'll be able to pick it out pretty easily.

You should also post that here. It's a waste to leave it on youtube.

 

[bc1910]

That's tough. I'd go with for now. I also think are good but don't know enough about them.

Interesting, again we have really similar opinions.

I'd go with [].

I'm sort of cheating by counting the Pits as one (they are legitimately more different now with DP's arrow buff) but I just wanted to show Ike was next. I'd have Peach right after Ike as well.

Lucario in particular I'm not sure on. I've seen him do some really impressive stuff and I still think he's just nonsense incarnate which keeps him high, but he does suffer from serious consistency issues. Not sure if his comeback factor is gonna be enough to outweigh the constant risk of getting stomped, which gets worse as people figure out his neutral and learn to not play scared against him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I keep seeing people talk about Yoshis in Japan doing well but never actually see any results. I hope this isn't one of those Japan is godlike and everyone is just going with it things. Does anyone have any brackets?

I think [DIO] got 4th at some japanese tournament, so that's ok I guess. Aiba kinda disappeared off the face of the Earth though.

Also realized everyone stopped mentioning Yoshidora as a "top" japanese Yoshi, mostly cause he was online only lol