Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

So I started messing around with some stuff and I think the hitlag changes applied to Ryu and friends in 1.1.0 may have also applied to long hitlag attacks in general, which would make heavies in general a lot safer on shield. I have no way to verify this though, so it'd be great if someone could disprove/prove this.

Not all moves with a lot of hitlag. I know for a fact zss's nair still has the same amount of hitlag

 

[Firefoxx]

Are there any major Smash 4 tourneys going on this weekend? If not, *selfish plug* we have Show Me Your Moves 16 going on Clash Tournaments this Saturday. I know people say that the Midwest of America is weak, but we out here showing our best. Hope yall see it.

I will see you there, maybe we can get some friendlies in.

I hope 1. That I dont get absolutely embarrassed on stream and 2. That I don't go 0-2

Edit: the patch thread has a lot of work diving into what high hitlag moves have and haven't had reductions but basically anything that isn't a jab ender and anything that isn't electric that had higher hitlag probably got an on shield hitlag reduction

 

[san.]

Just hitlag modifiers > 1 and non-electric. It's already figured out, just check the patch thread.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Welp I got tag'd in.

Spoiler: WALL O'TEXT TIME

Recovery: Quick Draw isn't nearly as linear as it appears assuming Ike has to recovery high (AKA when he can actually use QD in the first place). Obviously if it hits something he gets to act again afterwards. But outside of that, lets say he gets it charged (not hard to do). He can either recover high and land on a platform lag free, recover mid level and land on the main platform lag free, aim low level and still land on the main platform lag free, aim for the ledge, aim under the ledge and still snap upwards to grab it, or aim for the person trying to gimp him (which can and has killed in tournaments). He has a lot of options, more so than the person trying to gimp him. If they commit to any option in most cases Ike can safely switch to another. Or if they wait thinking that Ike has to go to the ledge they can then be caught off guard by Ike releasing QD early.

Aether thankfully has a larger snap range than one would think. Roughly one spinning sword length away in all directions. Aether can also poke up through the stage and punish people trying to hit him from there.

While the directions they travel are linear, they both have more options attached to them than it first appears. Truthly I'd say his recovery is average if not ever so slightly above average when you consider how many characters really only have an Up B for their recovery option.

Projectiles: I'm hesitant to link to one video of SM against a MegaMan because to be frank I don't think the MegaMan was very good. Didn't use pellets at all until the last game. But what he did do was use a looooot of Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, and Crash Bomber. It was actually quite rare that any of them hit SM, and they fought on Final Destination. Ike has a very good Dash -> Shield in terms of when he can cancel the dash into shield. On top of that his Dash Attack has crazy range, doesn't get clanked out by anything, and can hit the person twice if hits a projectile and the user at the same time for 24% damage. Are projectiles annoying? Of course they are, they always are. But Ike doesn't struggle against them as much as some characters with no reflectors/projectiles of their own. He can actually punish them once he gets into mid range, which is important. If they're getting punished, they're going to stop using them at that range.

Advantages: Edgeguarding. Bluntly I think Ike has the best onstage edgeguarding in the game by a significant amount. Eruption simply covers everything: its all on the Ike player as to if its hitting or not in the majority of cases. Hits farther down than the invisible ledge snap range, hits high enough to hit people on the Battlefield side platforms, has enough lingering frames to hit people as they grab the ledge. While have a massive hitbox that also hits behind him. With super armour. If they're somebody with a projectile, Ike can just jump and then start charging during the time the character off stage can throw a projectile at him and have it hit. Only exceptions really are Links' boomerang and ROB's laser.

To drive home my point: if Sheik has to use Vanish she should be dead. The timing is easy. She can't flinch him as long as he's gotten a 3/4 charge. Aiming behind or above him won't work, and snapping the ledge will just have her face running into the lingering frames. And if she somehow manages to get on stage and shield because we screwed up the timing, fully charged Eruption insta-breaks shields.

And then we have the options other than Eruption: walk-off fair is very deadly and difficult for many characters to get past. Walk-off Bair and Uairs are also viable options. If we have the stock lead we can just run off, trap you in aether, and drag you down with us for an easy win. Downward angle Ftilt also hits from on stage, as does Dsmash (barely), Fsmash, back part of Usmash, kinda Utilt, Dtilt...

If the character managed to get to the ledge safely, Ike STILL has a lot of options. Eruption when positioned correctly can cover literally every option for getting up. Usmash can do the same with some difficulty. SH Uair, particularly against tall characters, also can work. Once you're off stage against Ike you're simply having a baaaaad day.

On stage, Ike has a long list of short combos that are dealing as much damage as other characters' long combos. They can start with Grab, Nair, Dtilt, in some cases Dair, Uair, or Fair can start short combos as well. Throws that lead into kill confirms (with strict timing), and Uair on par with Rosalina's with 16 active frames to punish air dodging with (which we can use out of a throw either in a combo, or just jump let the opponent air dodge and THEN hit them), Nair leading into kill confirms all the way up to like 100% (with strict timing again). Or once you start hitting 100%, Ike can just start throwing out moves and almost anything will kill you. Dash Attack at the middle of the stage? Good chance you're dead now. Ftilt? Dead. Utilt? Dead. Fair? Potentially dead, if not you're at the edgeguarding game now. Bair? Bair will kill you. Dthrow? If Ike has enough rage yes that too will kill you.

Disadvantage: Ike only has one critical one I feel: juggle breaking. He's not so hot at it. Not quite as bad as it first appears, but not great at it. His Bair hits frame 7 and more importantly: hits more than just behind him. It covers most of his body and slightly in front of him as well. So against characters with no real disjoint, hammering away at Bair can get out of sticky situations. Randomly trying Aether to get the Super Armour also works. Counter.... rarely works but does on occasion particularly if the opponent goes into auto-pilot. And then it can kill them because it has a rather high knockback growth rate.

At low percents though? Ya Ike's pretty much just taking the damage against some characters until he starts popping out of their combos. He doesn't mind too much as that just leads into him in rage with is freaking terrifying. But its not exactly a good thing either.

So we have a character with great range, comboing abilities, strict but existent kill confirms, the ability to just toss out moves at random to get a kill, the best onstage edgeguarding in the game, airdodge eating moves, a kill throw balanced out by "somewhat predictable but not really" recovery that can kill you for attempting to stop him, stuck grumbling about projectiles but can get around them, and a juggling weakness. Seems like lower end of high tier to me. Results are starting to back it up as well: Ryo keeps stomping Static Manny and nearly beat ESAM at EVO Pools (in ESAM's words, if he has just held down during Aether Ryo would have won), Ryuga took a set off of Ally, SM is winning things and was one stock away from EVO Top 32, we have an Ike in Europe starting to win things as well.

what ike in europe? also ryo didn't make evo u meant ceo prob

 

[Trifroze]

@ Trifroze how recent is that list? Could some of them have been made safer by the hitlag changes?

According to this, Meta Knight's Fsmash and the second hit of Falcon's Dsmash have hitlag modifiers of >1, which means they got even safer on shield with this patch.

Edit: Fixed link.

I tested it all in the past few days.

 

[Nysyr]

@ Trifroze Who are we basing move safety off of? That's a really touchy subject. Are we taking into account their movespeed? Their Traction? How easy the move is to powershield (which has no pushback)? What if they were moving and had momentum?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hopefully I'll find my Ryu soon. But things are about to slow down on the Smash 4 front. The neighboring university has a Melee weekly and a PM weekly, so those may be my focus for a while. Stuck with Toon Link for a good while. I felt like I was going somewhere, but it stopped dead right before SKTAR. Haven't clicked with him since. Unsure of whether to press on or try new (or old) characters.

How do you guys deal with this? So many players just seem to click with their character and make the rest work. Others struggle but keep going for the love of their character. Maybe I need to change things outside of the game first.

I've gone from being fairly confident to questioning why I even play this damn game. I try to play through it though. I've picked up characters dropped em. One the verge of dropping my main. I say just explore characters and stuff. It's tough there's no real answer to it. I'll say stay positive though.

 

[PK Gaming]

So if i'm reading this right, Robin's dash attack and down air are a bit safer on block now? Neat.

 

[Vipermoon]

I will see you there, maybe we can get some friendlies in.

I hope 1. That I dont get absolutely embarrassed on stream and 2. That I don't go 0-2

Edit: the patch thread has a lot of work diving into what high hitlag moves have and haven't had reductions but basically anything that isn't a jab ender and anything that isn't electric that had higher hitlag probably got an on shield hitlag reduction

Wait I thought jab enders were included in the reduction?

 

[bc1910]

Hopefully I'll find my Ryu soon. But things are about to slow down on the Smash 4 front. The neighboring university has a Melee weekly and a PM weekly, so those may be my focus for a while. Stuck with Toon Link for a good while. I felt like I was going somewhere, but it stopped dead right before SKTAR. Haven't clicked with him since. Unsure of whether to press on or try new (or old) characters.

How do you guys deal with this? So many players just seem to click with their character and make the rest work. Others struggle but keep going for the love of their character. Maybe I need to change things outside of the game first.

For me it was a case of perseverance and admittedly character strength. I think many Greninja mains would tell you that maining him has been a bit of a roller coaster. Having mained him through the good times and the bad, I know him well enough to know what I'm doing wrong in most of my MUs and I try to use this to get better. I think with the most recent buffs giving me a shot of motivation, I've broken through my plateau.

How long have you played TL for? Do you have any particular motivation to be good with him? It sounds like you might prefer Melee and PM.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Curious about which matchups you're talking about. ZSS, Fox, Rosalina, Diddy and Yoshi are all bad matchups for G&W and only the latter can be really considered "rare". Pikachu and Ness on the other hand - his most manageable op and high tier matchups - are actually rare.



I think the importance of being able to close out stocks reliably cannot be overstated though because at the end of they day that's what smash is all about. If you struggle to finish stocks and are particularly vulernable to have your own stocks finished off fast then you have the two weaknesses that stand in strongest contradiction to what this game is all about. These weaknesses weigh far heavier than, say, having a sub-par grab or throw game.



That's a misconclusion a lot of people draw. They see Yoshi being ranked high on japanese tier lists and thus think that he must have outstanding results when he doesn't. The only Yoshi players that do reasonably well in Japan are Dio and Aiba and neither of them is particularly good. So ... you didn't actually miss out on anything.

ZSS is one of G&W's best niche matchups, we win it very solidly.
Rosalina is troublesome but i mentionned it.
Fox, Yoshi, & Diddy are honestly even-ish.
Don't know what you're talking about really, anyway.

 

[Trifroze]

@ Trifroze Who are we basing move safety off of? That's a really touchy subject. Are we taking into account their movespeed? Their Traction? How easy the move is to powershield (which has no pushback)? What if they were moving and had momentum?

Absolute safety is absolute. I had explanations on every move and two smash attacks were safe on perfect shield when spaced at least decently because there simply aren't moves in the game that are fast enough with enough range to punish them, while every smash attack in the list is safe if shielded normally. There aren't characters with low enough traction and fast enough moves with sufficient range to punish them after pushback or max range.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS is one of G&W's best niche matchups, we win it very solidly.

Nay. And please don't say crouch.
It may be as good as even for Gdubs, imo. His down tilt and dash attack together are mighty. But he can't touch our shield, ever. He can be combo'd into a kill very early and reliably.
His dash attack is good enough to punish side-b on a near instant drop (so bar power shield he likely isn't) I believe which is positive feature as it plasma whip freely beats every other extra low croucher's dash options bar him and Sheik.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Nay. And please don't say crouch.
It may be as good as even for Gdubs, imo. His down tilt and dash attack together are mighty. But he can't touch our shield, ever. He can be combo'd into a kill very early and reliably.
His dash attack is good enough to punish side-b on a near instant drop (so bar power shield he likely isn't) I believe which is positive feature as it plasma whip freely beats every other extra low croucher's dash options bar him and Sheik.

I guess, maybe it's because it's a matchup that not a lot of ZSS know well, going all out offensive vs G&W as ZSS is asking to die, literally. Gotta respect every tool we got in our bag. Still, i believe it's a little bit in our favor, but by solidly, i didn't mean we annihilate ZSS, just that its pretty good for us, at least imo.

 

[Nobie]

One thing that I hink has an effect on the meta and our tier lists is the fac that Smash tournaments tend to be weekend marathons.

In Starcraft there are two types of tournaments: marathon and solo match focus. The latter is when you are assigned one opponent or a pool at a time with ample time to prepare, sometimes even a week or more.

We tend to look at more reliable options as being better and that's generally not bad. However imagine if you had Batman-level prep time skills and you could hone the exact strategy you need to fight that one person. Weekend marathons favor quick adaptation and endurance, but solo matches allow you to really get in your opponent's head.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Are there any major Smash 4 tourneys going on this weekend? If not, *selfish plug* we have Show Me Your Moves 16 going on Clash Tournaments this Saturday. I know people say that the Midwest of America is weak, but we out here showing our best. Hope yall see it.

There might be over 20 streams for Smash this weekend. I think a few have Smash 4

 

[TriTails]

I know Luigi's FJP has noticeable hitlag on both hit and shield.

It became safer for a few frames? ON SHIELD?

...

Not noticeable enough to be useful. 3 seconds of landing lag is 3 seconds of landing lag. No amount of hitlag change's gonna change that.

On another topic entirely... is traction really a big deal for characters other than Luigi and maybe Mewtwo? A lot of characters seem to be able to just fight it back effortlessly with their dashing speed and most moves are better off be punished with a DA or dash grab anyway.

Honestly. Charizard has 2nd lowest (Maybe 3rd with Mewtwo in) traction... yet I don't notice much difference? Luigi's is 0.24 while Charizard's is 0.4. That's a huge gap. Luigi's slide is definitely too noticeable to be true, but Charizard mains, have you EVER feel this character is slippery?

 

[Man Li Gi]

There might be over 20 streams for Smash this weekend. I think a few have Smash 4

Forgot to mention that Clash Tournaments is streaming Smash 4 on Saturday and streaming 64 on Sunday. We got Zinoto, JJ Rockets coming too. Sadly, I feel everybody will be watching Pax Prime even though this date was finalized far in advance.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Ok so with about 9 months having passed since the games release what is everyones opinion on slept on characters? Personally I think characters such as Peach, Lucario, Pit, etc aren't used as much as they should be. What do you guys think? Who's slept on and who just isn't good enough for high level play?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Forgot to mention that Clash Tournaments is streaming Smash 4 on Saturday and streaming 64 on Sunday. We got Zinoto, JJ Rockets coming too. Sadly, I feel everybody will be watching Pax Prime even though this date was finalized far in advance.

It didn't have them listed as streamers in the Smashboards thread, so I'll update that!

I plan to watch SMYM myself actually, alongside NST9 if I can manage. You can learn a lot from the top pros we always look for but I really wanna see how scenes are forming in other places for smash 4 and analyse them there.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeah, the smashboards thread is a secondary info hub. For the info, go to Thesmashingillini.com. even then dunno if the info I just said is there.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

what ike in europe? also ryo didn't make evo u meant ceo prob

Don't remember their name. In the UK.

Also probably.

 

[SapphSabre777]

So I started messing around with some stuff and I think the hitlag changes applied to Ryu and friends in 1.1.0 may have also applied to long hitlag attacks in general, which would make heavies in general a lot safer on shield. I have no way to verify this though, so it'd be great if someone could disprove/prove this.

I think there are some hitlag changes, which might explain one thing that was changed with Kirby's D-Air.

On shield, pre-patch, D-Air making contact with a shield gave a split second window for some sort of attack between the individual hits. At present 1.1.0, D-Air now has a constant, rapid-fire effect towards shields, ultimately making it much safer as it keeps them in shield stun.

Of course, I have no way of proving it, but this could be the change you are talking about.

 

[DeLux]

DeLux also thinks Sheik MU is terrible while Pikachu, Fox, Diddy, Brawler and Olimar are bad and Rosalina, Mario, Ness, Sonic, Falcon, Yoshi, MK, G&W and Jigglypuff are slightly bad, which would make ZSS rank somewhere around 15th in the meta.

just saying

can confirm that zss is probably around 10 - 15 in the custom meta that I play tournaments in

 

[Bribery]

I think there are some hitlag changes, which might explain one thing that was changed with Kirby's D-Air.

On shield, pre-patch, D-Air making contact with a shield gave a split second window for some sort of attack between the individual hits. At present 1.1.0, D-Air now has a constant, rapid-fire effect towards shields, ultimately making it much safer as it keeps them in shield stun.

Of course, I have no way of proving it, but this could be the change you are talking about.

Yeah there were shield lag changes to moves with hitlag modifiers > 1.
Kirby's Dair has a 1.5 hit lag modifier on the initial hits (the 1% ones) so it's slightly safer on shield after this update. His Hammers are also slightly safer on shield for the same reason.

 

[Asdioh]

Really? That much closer to 64 status, then...
Though I swear I've still gotten shieldgrabbed mid-Dair in this patch. Maybe perfect shields? Dunno, I only remember it happening like one time, so yay buffs.

 

[C0rvus]

For me it was a case of perseverance and admittedly character strength. I think many Greninja mains would tell you that maining him has been a bit of a roller coaster. Having mained him through the good times and the bad, I know him well enough to know what I'm doing wrong in most of my MUs and I try to use this to get better. I think with the most recent buffs giving me a shot of motivation, I've broken through my plateau.

How long have you played TL for? Do you have any particular motivation to be good with him? It sounds like you might prefer Melee and PM.

Toon Link has been my focus for the better part of a month now, but I've played him on and off since release. I enjoyed his space control and bomb kill confirms, and Wind Waker is among my favorite games. I just found him dull after awhile, his bad grab and simple game plan have failed to hold my interest I guess. It's not even that I prefer Melee/PM, in fact those games frustrate me quite a bit more; those are going to be the games that have events near campus this semester.

 

[Routa]

So Ryu is a girl...

#TheMoreYouKnow

But anyways Zero (yeah dat guy) uploaded a video where he talks about Ryu.

Link v
http://youtu.be/nQFEIHweT8Y

 

[Emblem Lord]

****ing zero informing the ignorant masses.
No more easy wins now I guess.

 

[LancerStaff]

Can't help but think ZeRo's overstating the recovery a bit...

 

[Sir Tundra]

Ryu being top tier??

nah..

Now if he's able to use the Satsui no Hado then that would be a different story.

edit: or change his gi into red, change his har to blonde, make his chain 2 light shoryukens, make him combo better, give him a more aggressive playestyle, and just change his name to ken

 

[Kaladin]

Ryu being top tier??

nah..

Now if he's able to use the Satsui no Hado then that would be a different story.

Why not? He simultaneously has the best bait move and best punish move in the game in his Dragon Punch, along with a solid neutral, comeback factor, and the most options out of any character.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Why not? He simultaneously has the best bait move and best punish move in the game in his Dragon Punch, along with a solid neutral, comeback factor, and the most options out of any character.

Man I was just joking though..

IMO I think ryu could be top tier. I mean having the ability to get out of sticky situations with FADC is just amazing, being able to kill confirm into true shoryuken off of a weak tilt and a jab is just nuts, and having a very solid neutral is just amazing to have. I think the only thing that holds him back is the fact that his meta is still underdeveloped. It's growing though but it's still underdeveloped

 

[warionumbah2]

Why not? He simultaneously has the best bait move and best punish move in the game in his Dragon Punch, along with a solid neutral, comeback factor, and the most options out of any character.

Are you for real tho?

 

[Nu~]

Why not? He simultaneously has the best bait move and best punish move in the game in his Dragon Punch, along with a solid neutral, comeback factor, and the most options out of any character.

Ehhhhhhhh. That's a bold statement. He has more moves than any character, but as for having the most options out of everyone?

Not sure about that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

****ing zero informing the ignorant masses.
No more easy wins now I guess.

Don't worry

Nothing happened when he hyped up Ike.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Don't worry

Nothing happened when he hyped up Ike.

He can hype every character up, but leave DK alone. Seriously, this is like the 2nd meaningful patch he's received. 1st patch he had Punch reduced in startup and then he gave a nerf/buff damage percent on cargo throws. At least he got a serious buff here and increased hit box size. Now to fix the other intricacies.

 

[Planet God Venus]

Don't remember their name. In the UK.

Also probably.

Oh the uk doesn't count ewe

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh the uk doesn't count ewe

Hey, people like results in various regions. Japan has none (and may it continue to sacrifice Ike results in order to generate more Ike buffs), and I don't follow Europe like at all. I know that one exists and... kinda counts as a "regional" I guess because it was all parts of the UK not just say Britain there?

EU guys, does that count as a regional?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

He can hype every character up, but leave DK alone. Seriously, this is like the 2nd meaningful patch he's received. 1st patch he had Punch reduced in startup and then he gave a nerf/buff damage percent on cargo throws. At least he got a serious buff here and increased hit box size. Now to fix the other intricacies.

Good. If he hypes up DK people will complain about him and not realize that hes a character with heavily exploitable weaknesses.