Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

Yoshi has one of the best disadvantaged states in the game. It's barely a disadvantage, he's almost impossible to combo for many characters, because of his combination of high weight (so low hitstun on many combo moves), floatiness (hard to combo in general because goes too high) and 3 frame nair. Seriously, yoshi can nair out of mario's dair until mid %s, and tonnes of moves aren't safe on hit for ages. .

Don't have the time to address everything, but like i said his disadvantage state is a gimmick, but he definitely has one. His landings are very suspect since he doesn't have good directional aerials to land with, just a very strict command grab. His recovery is also very weak. While his aerial disadvantage is good, he gets into about as much if not more trouble while landing than he gets out of with nair/double jump.

The command grab helps land but it can be easily baited or straight stuffed by any projectile/meaty hitbox (most top tiers have at least one of these) And it's so laggy, it straight loses to almost all aggressive landing catches, it only beats shield.

 

[TriTails]

This has been your daily Falco rant which has wasted precious minutes of your time.

Don't worry dude. The moment I saw pheasants I know this is going to be another 'nuke the Falco' paragraph.

Don't have the time to address everything, but like i said his disadvantage state is a gimmick, but he definitely has one. His landings are very suspect since he doesn't have good directional aerials to land with, just a very strict command grab. His recovery is also very weak. While his aerial disadvantage is good, he gets into about as much if not more trouble while landing than he gets out of with nair/double jump.

The command grab helps land but it can be easily baited or straight stuffed by any projectile/meaty hitbox (most top tiers have at least one of these) And it's so laggy, it straight loses to almost all aggressive landing catches, it only beats shield.

I though his F-air landing frame is pretty much broken for his airspeed and the move's power? 8 or 10, was it?

And he can weave in and out with his excellent aerial mobility. I can't imagine him being SO easy to punish when landing unless you're fighting top 10 running speeds.

 

[thehard]

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive2

SlayerZ (Peach) vs. Mr. ConCon (Luigi) GF

 

[DunnoBro]

I though his F-air landing frame is pretty much broken for his airspeed and the move's power? 8 or 10, was it?

You can't space it properly often while landing, especially when people are dashing into and canceling shield push.

And he can weave in and out with his excellent aerial mobility. I can't imagine him being SO easy to punish when landing unless you're fighting top 10 running speeds.

He can only weave like that while he has a jump, and his second jump puts him super high. Any character adept at catching landings (most top tiers) can catch him pretty easily.

Characters like falcon, luigi, and mario who try to catch landings via shield grabs will have trouble, but their coverage smashes can work in a lot of situations too.

 

[David Viran]

Because Yoshi has excellent wavebounce to let him dash outta the spot immediately instead of crouching there with a pistol in your front for about 1.5 seconds.

Frame 16 to frame 21 is a huge difference when it comes to reaction time. A frame 16 grab isn't really perfectly react-able even at top level unless maybe it is the only option you are looking for

 

[Nu~]

@ DunnoBro
Considering that duck hunt is in your customs top 10, I'm interested in what your customs top 15 is.

 

[Trifroze]

Because Yoshi has excellent wavebounce to let him dash outta the spot immediately instead of crouching there with a pistol in your front for about 1.5 seconds.

Yoshi's (command) grab being safer doesn't make it any less reactable though.

Because in a high pressure environment all you know is Yoshi doing something and you might not realize what it is until it's too late (and you're already shielding on reaction to that something).

To be fair ZSS can do the same with just SHFF nair pressure and tomahawk into grab or jab/ftilt mixups, and her dashgrab is actually good and can easily catch people throwing out actions, definitely a worthy risk to go for when you're at low-mid percents.

It's defensively when ZSS' grab is bad, but she does have her fair share of other OoS options like up b, utilt, jab, usmash and SH rising aerials if your opponent is in the air (otherwise stuff like rising bair only hits the top ~10 tallest characters in the game). If your shield isn't being hit, then just jump out with a retreating SHFF nair or hell, just froll and jab.

Finally of course what it comes down to is that the endlag is the biggest reason ZSS' grab is bad. Luckily the risk/reward ratio is still favorable and there are many setups into it.

EDIT: oh yeah and the endlag was reduced by like 30 frames from Brawl so some characters can't punish you even if you predict a dash-in with a grab or pivot grab and flop

 

[Browny]

Disadvantage? Floatiness, double jump armor, air speed, and a great nair combo breaker are wonderful. But being so floaty with a very dedicated double jump makes his landings very suspect. Also no sweetspotting the ledge makes him one of the easier characters to ledge guard, though it often won't result in a gimp.

If Yoshi has 'suspect' landing options with his upb hop, b-reverse egg lay, yoshi bomb, egg roll and simply his dair, then I guess characters like Rosalina have actually never landed to this day. Some say its an infinite combo once her feet leave the ground.

Seriously the vast majority of the cast would kill to have his landing options, itd send them up like 3-4 tiers. Imagine if Bowser had half of what Yoshi does.

 

[DunnoBro]

If Yoshi has 'suspect' landing options with his upb hop, b-reverse egg lay, yoshi bomb, egg roll and simply his dair, then I guess characters like Rosalina have actually never landed to this day. Some say its an infinite combo once her feet leave the ground.

Seriously the vast majority of the cast would kill to have his landing options, itd send them up like 3-4 tiers. Imagine if Bowser had half of what Yoshi does.

egg roll is not a landing option lol Yoshi bomb is a SUPER mix-up too, it is an option but one that only works because you exercised other options enough for them to not expect it. It's also super weak from the air so the risk you'll take for trying it and failing is nowhere near the reward of it working.

Dair works only from a very certain situation so you can space it properly with no endlag.

Upb hop is nice, b-reverse egg lay is nice, but once yoshi HAS to put his feet on the ground against an aggressive opponent, these are his only consistent options, so he's very free.

Do you only play vs wifi yoshis?

@ DunnoBro
Considering that duck hunt is in your customs top 10, I'm interested in what your customs top 15 is.

Meh in all honesty I don't think custom DHD is top 10 anymore. About as potent as pre-uthrow nerf rob I think, but also does good vs conditioning chars like sheik and pika. But loses to rushdown/easykill chars like falcon and luigi.

 

[Browny]

egg roll is not a landing option lol Yoshi bomb is a SUPER mix-up too, it is an option but one that only works because you exercised other options enough for them to not expect it. It's also super weak from the air so the risk you'll take for trying it and failing is nowhere near the reward of it working.

Dair works only from a very certain situation so you can space it properly with no endlag.

Upb hop is nice, b-reverse egg lay is nice, but once yoshi HAS to put his feet on the ground against an aggressive opponent, he's very free.

Do you only play vs wifi yoshis?

No but I do play offline against the #2 player in our state who is a dedicated Yoshi main, who actually won the SWF Yoshi ditto tournament.

Nothing else matters because you cant rate a characters landing options as 'suspect' without it being relative to the rest of the cast. I can't think of anyone right now who has such a variety of effective landing options. Are you going to suggest that Yoshis landings are more 'suspect' than at least half the cast? If so, name them. You made the claim.

Everyone gets juggled in this game pretty much and you cant compare it to fast fallers who simply fall through juggles, since again this is relative, fast falling makes you susecptible to easy combos in which case you dont even get a CHANCE to use your landing options.

What good is fox's fall speed as a landing option vs Ryu when he utilt locks him to KO % lol.

 

[Trifroze]

Seriously the vast majority of the cast would kill to have his landing options, itd send them up like 3-4 tiers. Imagine if Bowser had half of what Yoshi does.

Just put customs on and he will

(´◔ ‿ゝ◔`)

 

[DunnoBro]

I can't think of anyone right now who has such a variety of effective landing options.

Mario.

Fireballs, dair, bair, nair, cape stall, and actually sweetspotting the ledge.

Luigi.

Nair, bair, fair, cyclone, and fireball/sweetspot ledge coverage(risky but an option)

You don't seem to understand yoshi is one of the few characters who simply can't just put out an instant hitbox either in front, or behind him while landing. Only around/beneath his body via nair. And also can't empty hop into grab, so his landing mix-ups are very limited.

Fair has start-up and bair has an awful hitbox. (inconsistent and even the good hits are super high, so it loses to most good fsmashes)

This alone gives him less immediate landing options than most of the cast. Even ganon's nair/bair are better threats during landing.

Now, don't get me wrong. His disadvantage state isn't bad, it's just not as good as people think. It's definitely his best feature, but it's nowhere near the best.

No but I do play offline against the #2 player in our state who is a dedicated Yoshi main, who actually won the SWF Yoshi ditto tournament.

So again, input from people who play vs this character and not as it.

 

[TriTails]

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive2

SlayerZ (Peach) vs. Mr. ConCon (Luigi) GF

Note: Wrong direction uncharged missile is the bane of Luigi's existence.

Heated matches though. Mr. CC got 2-0'd, bracket reset'd with three wins in a freaking row, then lost 1-3.

...

Ledge Luigi got to be the worst thing in the game.

 

[Nu~]

Meh in all honesty I don't think custom DHD is top 10 anymore. About as potent as pre-uthrow nerf rob I think, but also does good vs conditioning chars like sheik and pika. But loses to rushdown/easykill chars like falcon and luigi.

True, true. Makes sense considering that zig zag can makes his neutral game a little less potent against rush down characters.

But I'm still curious about the other 14 lol

 

[DunnoBro]

True, true. Makes sense considering that zig zag can makes his neutral game a little less potent against rush down characters.

But I'm still curious about the other 14 lol

Mostly the same as default, though sheik seems unlikely for #1 now. Fox, Wario, Sonic, Villager, and Pikachu are the high/top tiers to go up. Marth, Doc, Kirby, R.O.B., Game and Watch (with his non-evo sets) are those I think could join the top tiers too.

Overall things don't change much at the top though, it's just a lot more characters squeeze into the "viable" tag.

 

[thehard]

So yeah SlayerZ won that from Winners side after a reset. Pretty great showing of the oft-spoken but rarely seen potential of Peach, and how dumb Luigi is. I hesitate to say she wins the matchup because her aerials stuff fireballs + deal massive pressure and pushback to Luigi's shield but he can just as always. Getting pre-patch Diddy vibes here. D-throw to down-b remains ridiculous, SJP is just another trump card on a really overtuned character. Hope Nintendo changes him into something more healthy, and soon.

2nd at a 128 man regional = results~

 

[TriTails]

Aerials on shield seem to be punishable by SH N-air or B-air or F-air outta shield.

And Peach is like the 2nd floatiest character. OF COURSE HooHahNado is going to look stupid. FJP kills were from misspaced DAs (Further shows how broken Luigi would be if he had actual traction). And Mr. CC barely got tons of grabs in those MUs.

Nothing much. This just further porves how vulnerable Luigi is on the ledge, and on how hard his punish game can be.

Watching Mr. CC missle to the other direction was painful to watch though...

 

[DunnoBro]

IMO the only wins CC got were from stray hits and trades until he could hoohahnado slayerz. He got straight outplayed 90% of the matches imo though.

 

[Ghostbone]

Luigi.

Nair, bair, fair, cyclone, and fireball/sweetspot ledge coverage(risky but an option)

You don't seem to understand yoshi is one of the few characters who simply can't just put out an instant hitbox either in front, or behind him while landing. Only around/beneath his body via nair. And also can't empty hop into grab, so his landing mix-ups are very limited.

You can't compare Luigi's landing options to yoshi in that way.
Of course if yoshi had luigi's options yoshi would be broken, but yoshi's are necessarily worse in a vacuum because yoshi's aerial mobility is like 500x luigi's. Luigi has a tonne of trouble landing because he has nowhere to go, yoshi can land wherever he want.

Yoshi can't empty hop > grab, he can just dair your shield though which is the same effect.

 

[Dre89]

lol at wind kong not being as good as default up-b.

It's miles ahead of the default move. The safety and edgeguarding and combo breaking potential is ridiculous. You can't really use the regular one much in neutral because you can't auto-cancel it, and you have far less mobility.
Regular DK does better than custom DK because the custom DK results were all pre-ding dong, and DK's current grab reward is far more potent of an attribute than wind kong was, custom DK now is likely super ridiculous now.

Just because the move has counterplay doesn't mean it's bad, and an essentially auto-pick in every matchup.

At low percents DK has cargo uthrow combos with regular upb that do over 40%

I'd definitely say cyclone is a trade-off rather than a straight upgrade

 

[Ghostbone]

At low percents DK has cargo uthrow combos with regular upb that do over 40%

I'd definitely say cyclone is a trade-off rather than a straight upgrade

Yea I know about them, but he has stuff like nair > bair or just bair > bair that work at a greater variety of %s, and don't leave him punishable once it's done.
Like I use the up-b when it works because it's dumb damage but I'd still give slightly greater punishes up in a heartbeat for an extremely better recovery and a lot better disadvantage state.

 

[DunnoBro]

You can't compare Luigi's landing options to yoshi in that way.
Of course if yoshi had luigi's options yoshi would be broken, but yoshi's are necessarily worse in a vacuum because yoshi's aerial mobility is like 500x luigi's. Luigi has a tonne of trouble landing because he has nowhere to go, yoshi can land wherever he want.

I literally just looked at the CSS screen and picked the first two characters that caught my eye lol

Pretty much everyone has better landing options, other high air speed chars like jiggs, sheik, and wario have the instant directional hitboxes I'm talking about. Yoshi only really has a directional GRAB box. (And it's hardly instant)

 

[thehard]

Aerials on shield seem to be punishable by SH N-air or B-air or F-air outta shield.

And Peach is like the 2nd floatiest character. OF COURSE HooHahNado is going to look stupid. FJP kills were from misspaced DAs (Further shows how broken Luigi would be if he had actual traction). And Mr. CC barely got tons of grabs in those MUs.

Nothing much. This just further porves how vulnerable Luigi is on the ledge, and on how hard his punish game can be.

Watching Mr. CC missle to the other direction was painful to watch though...

I'm not really arguing that he doesn't have weaknesses, rather that his strengths are too much and that he's too easy to pick up. He has simple setups into powerful combos (they don't have to be extended, fast startup and high damage on individual moves means 2-3 hits yield GREAT reward [compare his damage output to Mario's and understand that the typical Mario experiences move staling more than his evil green brother, it's very silly]). Luigi's mobility works in a way where, yes he's slippery, but it's a boon as much as it holds him back. He has multiple mixups in 3 recovery moves + fireball to cover landing. And so on

It's not that he can't be beaten. It's that I get a dirty feeling watching him when stomaching that stuff is usually par the course for me. His presence makes the game feel like a **** show a la 1.0.4 Diddy. Not as extreme obviously but a whole bunch of fishing for grabs unpunished, players having to play veeeery scared against him (the last tournament Ally was at saw him switch to Falcon for Larry Lurr's Luigi and opt for a conservative bait-and-punish playstyle to win, wasn't so lucky this time around when he tried the same against ConCon), rage-induced and rage-inducing <90% kill setups, ease of use, etcccc

Luigi's current design feels like an oversight. His high damage output is probably fine in a game that still has vectoring intact. I'll give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt in that, after they buffed him in 1.0.4, they were too concerned about Diddy and Sheik and other low tier buffs to notice him creep into "abusive" territory. Because the community didn't either. Winter 2014/2015 Luigi was a HERO in our eyes, because he could handle Diddy, because he had cool combos, Boss hype, etc. Things started souring after 1.0.6, and by now most of the community has 180'd their attitude toward Mr. L.

I dunno, take a bit away from his aerials, give him later grab FAFs, change d-throw's trajectory, lower knockback on Cyclone, whatever. Push him in the direction of neat tools like fireball locks, SJP, and down-b gimps, not this... thing that we have now

Yeah I don't like complaining too much either because he's not S tier but he's still a problem and exposing that means we may have a healthier build of the game some day.

 

[Yonder]

I think in the end if Luigi is not placing at bigger events, he's not really worth noting as one needing major nerfs. He's just easy to pick up and use, but falters a bit at the higher level. then you take Sheik, who's a bir more tricky to use but yields better results at the higher level. I'm only going to believe Luigi needs nerfs when Zer0 picks him up and gets 1st. Otherwise, he's fine. The metagame will shift to faster, camping character like all Smash games eventually with longer ranged projectiles and Luigi will drop.

 

[DunnoBro]

ZeRo said he was gonna pick up luigi though... Luigi destroys a lot of sheiks harder to play(not bad) or plain scarier MUs like dk, pikachu, mk, lucario...

I can see Sheik/Luigi being the ultimate character rotation in this game with things the way they are.

Beyond meta applications though, Luigi's just an unhealthily designed character. He's simply too easy for how many characters he invalidates, like brawl dedede.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No but I do play offline against the #2 player in our state who is a dedicated Yoshi main, who actually won the SWF Yoshi ditto tournament.

Is it Nikes?

I just wanna mention that Yoshi ditto tournament was for fun, his internet is incredibly laggy for reasons we all know >Australia
and more than half of us dropped out the first or second wave before it even finished, me included.

 

[thehard]

I think in the end if Luigi is not placing at bigger events, he's not really worth noting as one needing major nerfs. He's just easy to pick up and use, but falters a bit at the higher level. then you take Sheik, who's a bir more tricky to use but yields better results at the higher level. I'm only going to believe Luigi needs nerfs when Zer0 picks him up and gets 1st. Otherwise, he's fine. The metagame will shift to faster, camping character like all Smash games eventually with longer ranged projectiles and Luigi will drop.

More of a (not even drastic) redesign is what I'm asking for. If Nintendo can make Diddy super interesting they can do it to Luigi too

Also did you miss my mention of ConCon getting 2nd at a big regional and beating Ally, falln, and others along the way??

When a bunch of top players are complaining about Luigi (more than Sheik and others!) and placing him high on their personal tier lists there is some problem that needs rectifying. I think that holds true in a lot of gaming communities, that while players are usually awful at suggesting fixes and getting to the root of a problem, they can feel that something's "off" in the design of a game and so complain. I really don't like whiny attitudes and "nerf culture" + have dealt with flat out dumb communities in the past so some times it's hard for me to recognize this

I think pocket characters (that you use for the cheese factor rather than the matchup or player factor) are lame too, and it's what we're seeing of Luigi.

 

[bc1910]

Luigi is insanely easy to win with sometimes but we're not seeing national level dominance.

I don't really want to talk about nerfs for any character until Sheik is addressed.

 

[DunnoBro]

The thing is if sheik/zss/rosa get nerfed, then we're right back to pre-patch diddy days where the best character is also the easiest.

Hopefully get more buffs to characters that naturally do well vs luigi but simply aren't as good characters so they lose in the end atm.

 

[bc1910]

You make a good point, but I don't see Luigi as the natural successor to Sheik and ZSS. He has a lot of iffy MUs already with random characters like Greninja and Olimar. I see him as probably the best counterpick character.

I mean, is he too polarized? Yes. Could some rebalancing be worthwhile? Yes. But we have to bigger fish to fry right now.

Sheik reduces otherwise viable characters to characters who can't be solo mained because of her strength and popularity. She's been 2nd behind Diddy since Wii U and overtook him when he got nerfed, she's been dominant since day 1 and never had anything more than a few slaps on the wrist in terms of patching. And she's just... silly. Fair, needles and her 50/50 throw kill setups (which totally negate the "Sheik can't kill" argument), it's just so much for one character.

Does Luigi invalidate other characters? Probably. But would they be viable if he were more sensible? I'm not sure. I'm having trouble thinking of a character who would be significantly better in a Luigi-less meta but I could be missing someone.

I don't think Rosalina needs to be nerfed and I only think ZSS does when watching Nairo tbh.

Sheik isn't broken, but I think she lacks meaningful weaknesses. After Sheik, I really don't think there are any characters left who lack meaningful weaknesses. Pikachu would be the closest thing I guess. At least, I think he would take up the Sheik/ZSS mantle before Luigi. But this is why I don't mind nerfing Sheik; I don't think we'll get a snowball effect where "another will take her place" because she's the last truly unbalanced character in the game.

I could be wrong, but either way I think Sheik needs to be dealt with before we tackle other problems.

 

[Pazx]

If Sheik, ZSS and Rosa didn't exist (ie. received significant nerfs) then the characters competing for the top spot would be Pikachu and Fox, maybe some Sonic/Mario/Ness. Wario and Diddy would be in the picture too but I don't think anyone could really argue that either of them are the best in the game. Now as yourself (or any Luigi main), "how many of these characters does Luigi lose to?"

Instant top tier, right back to pre-patch diddy days where the best character is also the easiest.

 

[Trifroze]

I agree Luigi needs a gameplan change but he doesn't deserve an overall nerf until Sheik gets some raw frame data changes and ZSS gets maybe a back air nerf. No matter what you do to ZSS' flip kick or up b they won't effectively get any worse unless they're nerfed so much that they stop killing at the percents where you have reliable setups into them, which would be way too hard of a blow. Half the reason ZSS gets such early kills is because most people across all skill levels still don't seem to know that you need to DI her up b to the side, away from the opponent. I'd avoid nerfing characters aside from Sheik who has seemingly no bad matchups, because it just ends up making things go in circles. Everyone else is honestly alright as long as other characters get small consistent buffs, which fortunately seems to be the direction in these last couple patches except for poor Falcon and perhaps Sonic who only got nerfs.

Why is no one ever saying Pikachu needs nerfs despite most people considering him top 3 in the meta? I think that to a certain level people are unconsciously aware that he isn't really that good of a character and hence shouldn't be changed, although in my opinion his smash input HSB custom needs to go or get a serious nerf. It's effectively a relatively fast and very strong aerial smash attack. Maybe do something to QA landings as well.

 

[thehard]

Well yeah, Sheik is paramount, but everyone already knows that. ZSS is fine imo (Nairo bias?) Actually exploitable weakness, relies on all her tools throughout a match, perfect "strong character"

I fell off the Pika bandwagon too. Lack of reliable kill setups bar him from being top 3 in my eyes. Damn ESAM for being so great as to cloud our judgments of his main.

Dream nerfs for me I think are:
Luigi as mentioned
Sheik's whatever
Sonic's optimal gameplan being timeouts (less free spinning stuff)
Stuff @ Shaya said about Ness

Then Nintendo can have their way with the game.

 

[bc1910]

As I said I don't think ZSS and Rosalina necessarily need nerfs but even if they did, I don't see how Luigi'd become the best in the same way as pre-patch Diddy when you have other characters a bit further down the tier list (don't know if they would be further down in a Sheik-less meta, actually) who can keep him in check. Pikachu, Fox and others would have much better MU spreads than Luigi overall. Pre-patch Diddy lost to no-one at all.

Diddy also had massive room for development with his banana play, although he didn't need it at the time. Luigi seems a lot more linear.

I don't think Rosalina is even top 5 by the way, I'm not sure why people continue lump her in with Sheik and ZSS when other characters like Fox, Pikachu and maybe Diddy are a lot scarier.

@ Trifroze Pikachu is the only character besides Sheik who I think fits the "lacks meaningful weaknesses" description. But overall, I think his strengths just aren't as dominating. His projectile is reactable and punishable, he doesn't have a dumb aerial kill option like Bouncing Fish and his frame data (particularly landing lag) is that bit more sensible. Thunder is pretty stupid at times, but far less so than things like BF and Flip Jump.

 

[Luigi player]

If Sheik, ZSS and Rosa didn't exist (ie. received significant nerfs) then the characters competing for the top spot would be Pikachu and Fox, maybe some Sonic/Mario/Ness. Wario and Diddy would be in the picture too but I don't think anyone could really argue that either of them are the best in the game. Now as yourself (or any Luigi main), "how many of these characters does Luigi lose to?"

Instant top tier, right back to pre-patch diddy days where the best character is also the easiest.

What makes you think Luigi doesn't lose to any of them?
Do people really still think he got overall buffed instead of nerfed from the last patch?

And also, even if Luigi didn't lose to any of the new top tiers (and Sheik, ZSS and Rosa got super nerfed where they can't do anything anymore)... why would you ignore some of the lower characters that could have an advantage over him? If Luigi never reaches the top because of not being able to go through lower characters then his MUs with tops wouldn't matter as much.

And not losing to characters but going even with them is pretty okay if you ask me.

Luigi hasn't done anything notable since evo. Concon might've gotten unlucky with SDing, but we don't know how much higher he would've gotten if he won, and what has Luigi done since?

Luigi is still overrated I guess by some and hated by so many people even though he doesn't do anything anymore, while Sheik reigns supreme with ZSS' slowly taking over anything else that's left, and no one's saying a word about it.


Why did no one cry about Luigi preDiddynerfs? Luigi was always like that since the Wii U version came out. Because everyone already had Diddy to cry about? Luigi got beaten before by more than one character, and now it's still like that.

Why do people cry so much about Luigis dthrow to cyclone, while ZSS and Sheik could also get hoo-has for as long as Diddy could?

Everyone and their mother has throwcombos to a kill in this game. Don't just cry about some. Cry about all of them or accept that this is how this game was made (and they probably made at least some intentionally) or don't cry about any of them. [or at least... cry about the ones that make the actual best characters in the game even better [hint: Luigi isn't one of them]]

Characters in the game that could still receive (small) nerfs because they're too strong [imo]: Sheik, ZSS, Luma
Everyone else seems fine for now. Even though a few do still have a few broken attributes to them, but they should probably not just get weakened, but also buffed somewhere else to compensate for that, unless you just want those characters to die off.
Although this could remove some of their uniqueness and mash all characters together even more.

If Luigi is so easy to play then play him, win and be happy about your win if you manage to do that, because it's not as easy to actually win as you might think, if you have good opponents at least.

 

[RayNoire]

I picked up Luigi for doubles recently. Strange how he's the easiest and the hardest character to use at the same time.

Jumpless Cyclone legitimately angers me.

 

[Trifroze]

Why do people cry so much about Luigis dthrow to cyclone, while ZSS and Sheik could also get hoo-has for as long as Diddy could?

ZSS: 16 frame grab with a second of cooldown has a lot to do with it, plus the fact that this hoo ha in particular kills at around 140-150% compared to 100-110% and the timing is tight, plus there's about 45 degrees which the opponent can mix their DI within. Down throw to bair is a thing without rage which is pretty strong but again, the riskiest grab in the game along with Samus and a very tight execution window.

Sheik: It's a 50/50 and not always even that, plus it also kills later than Luigi's.

DK and ROB get a pass because their lifes are hard. Then there's Falcon, Diddy, G&W, Lucario and Robin whose hoo has sometimes kinda work but ehh, very harmless.

People are frustrated at Luigi because a fundamentally interesting and original character is being ruined by giving him no incentive to do anything else than fish for grabs because of how overpowered his grab game is compared to his other options.

 

[Dre89]

What makes you think Luigi doesn't lose to any of them?
Do people really still think he got overall buffed instead of nerfed from the last patch?

And also, even if Luigi didn't lose to any of the new top tiers (and Sheik, ZSS and Rosa got super nerfed where they can't do anything anymore)... why would you ignore some of the lower characters that could have an advantage over him? If Luigi never reaches the top because of not being able to go through lower characters then his MUs with tops wouldn't matter as much.

And not losing to characters but going even with them is pretty okay if you ask me.

Luigi hasn't done anything notable since evo. Concon might've gotten unlucky with SDing, but we don't know how much higher he would've gotten if he won, and what has Luigi done since?

Luigi is still overrated I guess by some and hated by so many people even though he doesn't do anything anymore, while Sheik reigns supreme with ZSS' slowly taking over anything else that's left, and no one's saying a word about it.


Why did no one cry about Luigi preDiddynerfs? Luigi was always like that since the Wii U version came out. Because everyone already had Diddy to cry about? Luigi got beaten before by more than one character, and now it's still like that.

Why do people cry so much about Luigis dthrow to cyclone, while ZSS and Sheik could also get hoo-has for as long as Diddy could?

Everyone and their mother has throwcombos to a kill in this game. Don't just cry about some. Cry about all of them or accept that this is how this game was made (and they probably made at least some intentionally) or don't cry about any of them. [or at least... cry about the ones that make the actual best characters in the game even better [hint: Luigi isn't one of them]]

Characters in the game that could still receive (small) nerfs because they're too strong [imo]: Sheik, ZSS, Luma
Everyone else seems fine for now. Even though a few do still have a few broken attributes to them, but they should probably not just get weakened, but also buffed somewhere else to compensate for that, unless you just want those characters to die off.
Although this could remove some of their uniqueness and mash all characters together even more.

If Luigi is so easy to play then play him, win and be happy about your win if you manage to do that, because it's not as easy to actually win as you might think, if you have good opponents at least.

I don't have an issue with Luigi but I think people that do realise that Luigi isn't OP. Their issue is with his design, because they think he's too potent for how easy he is to play.

 

[Shaya]

I currently think

Sheik:
Needles - something
Proportion kill power back to moves based on how much you make needles not stupid

ZSS
1% of flip jump kick (imo should suffice a lot, MAYBE DONT DO IT AT ALL HA HA), make jab and fsmash not whiff half the cast standing; thanks. NickRiddle-senpai mentioned something like 'up-b auto link for noticeably weaker would be best', and I agree, I care less about killing fatties with it for free at stupid percents and more about sheik and rosa not always falling out of it (although it can be skilfully avoided I DONT WANT TO THINK, GOSH, no one who doesn't main a character understands how much we don't want to think about things, easy easy only please)

Ness
1% off Nair/Uair, growth off back throw. Buff as many of his pokes as you want so he can compete with sheik/rosa because he's no longer silly.

Luigi
Kill him, he's basically a bad guy, and just like all the other bad guys in this game (Bowser, Dedede, Mewtwo, Shulk [spoilers], Ganondorf, maybe Junior) should be low tier by default.
Or make dash grab have a lot more cool down. Maybe a dthrow adjustment but probably not necessary; make this **** take something fair for whiffing grab (Palutena does!). Diddy's nerf in his three are really hard for me to notice to be honest, so I think a similar frame or slightly worse would be acceptable.
Luigi hasn't really shown to have any unwinnable match ups yet though, if Sheik/ZSS get tapped down in potency then who's he losing to that isn't almost niche character level at this point?)

Mario
Hard to really justify much, but I'd love 1% off Up Smash. Nothing else is really stupid, he's got a well utilized kit. Probably deserves something in return... on his pokes? People are putting this character as high as top 5. We've heard anecdotes of Japan thinking he's the best in the game...

Is Fox a problem right now? Soso... Enough weaknesses (light, average recovery, easy to combo). The moment Luigi dies is perhaps the moment we start calling for Fox nerfs. IF I was going to think of anything it would be maybe a little KB off Up Smash (something that's as fast as it is and gets combo'd into reliably). With Luigi culling in mind, Fox would be an easy top 3 for me though.

Falco
Do what they did to Fox last patch, basically, I know they want to/have to.

Pikachu
still actually sucks, probably should get buffs for Pete's sake. Honestly he has enough of a weakness in lacking any long range 'poke' and this accentuates his poor range issues. He has down tilt. Sheik has fair/bair/nair act as one, Diddy has fair/bair, etc etc.
ESAM is just that good. Also I'll take this opportunity to say NAIRO IS JUST THAT GOOD, and maybe zero suit should get buffs instead too~ :3

Diddy / Sonic / Wario
No one is really complaining about them at this stage in the West. Many agree Sonic is a mess though (and partially problematic) that perhaps because of japanese opinion has been relegated to the back of our minds as he continually become less and less of an issue; not because they fix him, but because they force him into a 1-way victory condition that only certain players could be successful with.

Ryu
DANGER ZONE. EVERYONE IN JAPAN PLAYS RYU ON WIFI. EVERYONE ON WIFI IN JAPAN WHO PLAYS RYU IS THE MOST ZONIEST NEUTRALEST CAMPIEST SHORYUKENOUTOFSOMETHING character ever (it's lame on wifi but it's really pretty to watch and fun to play around). It's almost like what Luigi should be. Except on a much much more higher depth character who's strong. I could see something happening. He is Snake 2.0 in a lot of ways
Ryu has a 1.8x modifier on a lot of his moves. His entire moveset's safety got significantly buffed. This character can almost certainly be a demon (and definitely wasn't last patch).

And everyone else deserves buffs. But only Blue Haired Fire Emblem are going to get them. HAAH.

(Forgive my blatant facetiousness this one time)

 

[RayNoire]

Does Japan really think Mario is the best in the game?

...Because I agree.