Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

I think the "gossip" was Nietono thinks he's at least top 3.

I forgot to mention Rosa...
Probably deserves buffs. If it wasn't a consideration before, this usually means likely fine/leave them be.
But the hit lag stuff gave some bonuses in some places so it may have helped a little anyway. Biggest issues to her are ZSS and Sheik mostly, although needle nerfs would be not as impactful on the match up as other characters.

 

[Trifroze]

Speaking of fixing ZSS things, pls bair deadzone go. This also needs something done about it:

Spoiler: Accidentally uploaded a full hd pic

also sakurai change nair so that the whip straightens out completely so it has like 2½ times the current range

 

[Shaya]

Bair deadzone probably requires it coming out 1 frame faster or shifting it's z-axis towards the main plane more.

The hitbox is meant to just be the ball on the end, but is only active for 2 frames out of what I think is like 5 frames 'out in appearance' on both hits. I'm not really certain what allows that to miss, really.

Maybe that the 3.0 size hitbox travels to 7.5 units and 4.5 units 'below' (or 6.0? I'm not sure between the two) the article isn't enough to hit G&W crouching moves [or maybe you can at just the right horizontal distance; 20u if I'm reading dantarion stuff correctly].
Sheik with a 5.0 hitbox on fair can hit short characters although not necessarily the best comparison.

 

[Trifroze]

Bair deadzone probably requires it coming out 1 frame faster or shifting it's z-axis towards the main plane more.

The hitbox is meant to just be the ball on the end, but is only active for 2 frames out of what I think is like 5 frames 'out in appearance' on both hits.

So you mean this thing that goes through G&W's nose?

Spoiler: only 540p now

You could argue the outer glow isn't a part of the hitbox, but it goes through his head too if you're closer to him. G&W's crouching animation has 2 states he transitions between out of which the other one rises some pixels higher and it hits that one though.

ZSS doesn't really need lower hitboxes but the lack of aerials that hit all the way to the ground is annoying in some scenarios and bad game design in my opinion, especially when DA and grab also do that (grab works from max range but in that case it's too slow to ever work).

 

[bc1910]

I currently think

Sheik:
Needles - something
Proportion kill power back to moves based on how much you make needles not stupid

ZSS
1% of flip jump kick (imo should suffice a lot, MAYBE DONT DO IT AT ALL HA HA), make jab and fsmash not whiff half the cast standing; thanks. NickRiddle-senpai mentioned something like 'up-b auto link for noticeably weaker would be best', and I agree, I care less about killing fatties with it for free at stupid percents and more about sheik and rosa not always falling out of it (although it can be skilfully avoided I DONT WANT TO THINK, GOSH, no one who doesn't main a character understands how much we don't want to think about things, easy easy only please)

Ness
1% off Nair/Uair, growth off back throw. Buff as many of his pokes as you want so he can compete with sheik/rosa because he's no longer silly.

Luigi
Kill him, he's basically a bad guy, and just like all the other bad guys in this game (Bowser, Dedede, Mewtwo, Shulk [spoilers], Ganondorf, maybe Junior) should be low tier by default.
Or make dash grab have a lot more cool down. Maybe a dthrow adjustment but probably not necessary; make this **** take something fair for whiffing grab (Palutena does!). Diddy's nerf in his three are really hard for me to notice to be honest, so I think a similar frame or slightly worse would be acceptable.
Luigi hasn't really shown to have any unwinnable match ups yet though, if Sheik/ZSS get tapped down in potency then who's he losing to that isn't almost niche character level at this point?)

Mario
Hard to really justify much, but I'd love 1% off Up Smash. Nothing else is really stupid, he's got a well utilized kit. Probably deserves something in return... on his pokes? People are putting this character as high as top 5. We've heard anecdotes of Japan thinking he's the best in the game...

Is Fox a problem right now? Soso... Enough weaknesses (light, average recovery, easy to combo). The moment Luigi dies is perhaps the moment we start calling for Fox nerfs. IF I was going to think of anything it would be maybe a little KB off Up Smash (something that's as fast as it is and gets combo'd into reliably). With Luigi culling in mind, Fox would be an easy top 3 for me though.

Falco
Do what they did to Fox last patch, basically, I know they want to/have to.

Pikachu
still actually sucks, probably should get buffs for Pete's sake. Honestly he has enough of a weakness in lacking any long range 'poke' and this accentuates his poor range issues. He has down tilt. Sheik has fair/bair/nair act as one, Diddy has fair/bair, etc etc.
ESAM is just that good. Also I'll take this opportunity to say NAIRO IS JUST THAT GOOD, and maybe zero suit should get buffs instead too~ :3

Diddy / Sonic / Wario
No one is really complaining about them at this stage in the West. Many agree Sonic is a mess though (and partially problematic) that perhaps because of japanese opinion has been relegated to the back of our minds as he continually become less and less of an issue; not because they fix him, but because they force him into a 1-way victory condition that only certain players could be successful with.

Ryu
DANGER ZONE. EVERYONE IN JAPAN PLAYS RYU ON WIFI. EVERYONE ON WIFI IN JAPAN WHO PLAYS RYU IS THE MOST ZONIEST NEUTRALEST CAMPIEST SHORYUKENOUTOFSOMETHING character ever (it's lame on wifi but it's really pretty to watch and fun to play around). It's almost like what Luigi should be. Except on a much much more higher depth character who's strong. I could see something happening. He is Snake 2.0 in a lot of ways
Ryu has a 1.8x modifier on a lot of his moves. His entire moveset's safety got significantly buffed. This character can almost certainly be a demon (and definitely wasn't last patch).

And everyone else deserves buffs. But only Blue Haired Fire Emblem are going to get them. HAAH.

(Forgive my blatant facetiousness this one time)

Ooh, fun!


Agreed on needles. I would say significantly more startup lag (7-10 frames?) and maybe make them travel slower. Some might say this butchers them but I don't care, needles are ******** (they'd still be good anyway, transcendent store-able projectile with "good" startup and travel speed rather than "stupid", and she still has BF to zone break)
Fair autocancel moved from frame 11 to something not, again, ********
Give Bair its kill power back


I'd be fine with 1% off FJK but the spike's knockback should be weakened significantly on top of that
Up B to link better and kill later would be fine, as would hitbox fixes


Don't really think anything needs to be done. She's new, she's weird and she's hard to fight at times, but she's not unhealthily dominant. Uair could be tweaked, as could her ability to dodge and run away from everything with Luma gone.


There's just general stupidity that could be toned down but I can't think of anything specific. They're probably fine. Quick Attack's landing lag would be the biggest offender across all 3 characters. Could tone down Fox's Nair and Usmash but they've been his signature moves since like Melee, and they're probably okay. Your suggestions for Ness were reasonable.


I agree with your changes, or lack thereof. What can you even do to Sonic at this stage? The entire issue is his run speed which isn't gonna change. They might just keep slapping kill power nerfs on him...


I think he's fine LOL
But I'm biased. Your changes were sensible. I think it's worth pointing out that with Sheik being less dumb, Greninja, Olimar and arguably Pac-Man go from being good/"niche" to serious contenders. I say arguably for Pac-Man because he's been doing better against Sheik and could already be there.

 

[Trifroze]

Ryu's newfound safety did raise my interest in the character again since he now has spammable aerials that won't be obliterated by shields and his other moves won't be as easily punished anymore either. That's really the thing that most threw me off in addition to hadoken being terrible and SF inputs working pretty badly in this game because you can turn around and also all Ryu's color palettes being boring aside from the default.

Really though Ryu's falling nair gives him frame advantage on shields vs characters who lack a 1 frame jab.

That's 53 out of 55 characters. And he trades with Mac's and ZSS' jabs.

I wonder if they thought about that.

 

[TriTails]

He has multiple mixups in 3 recovery moves + fireball to cover landing. And so on

And then people just tickle you off your Missile and Cyclone, take away your double jump and immediately you find a character that has a worse recovery than Ganondorf.

It doesn't matter how many mixups you can have. End lag is end lag. End of the story. People have yet to stage-spike his SJP, trade with Cyclone, or SPIKE HIS MISSLE DAMMIT!

..Excuse me.

It's not that he can't be beaten. It's that I get a dirty feeling watching him when stomaching that stuff is usually par the course for me. His presence makes the game feel like a **** show a la 1.0.4 Diddy. Not as extreme obviously but a whole bunch of fishing for grabs unpunished, players having to play veeeery scared against him (the last tournament Ally was at saw him switch to Falcon for Larry Lurr's Luigi and opt for a conservative bait-and-punish playstyle to win, wasn't so lucky this time around when he tried the same against ConCon)

Luigi beats Mario pretty convincingly. Poke won against Ally. Larry's secondary Luigi won against Ally. Mario boards think it's 40:60 soldily in our favor, maybe even 35:65. Maybe it's why Ally lose a ton against Luigi.

rage-induced and rage-inducing <90% kill setups, ease of use, etcccc

Woah wait.

"<90% kill setups"

Whaaaaaat.

Seriously though. Wtf?

Luigi's current design feels like an oversight. His high damage output is probably fine in a game that still has vectoring intact.

He loses too much by vectoring. His kill setups probably will work for lesser degree of percents, he can't combo, can't kill, and... yeah.

Things started souring after 1.0.6, and by now most of the community has 180'd their attitude toward Mr. L.

MR. L

Get out of my face.

.

I dunno, take a bit away from his aerials, give him later grab FAFs, change d-throw's trajectory, lower knockback on Cyclone, whatever. Push him in the direction of neat tools like fireball locks, SJP, and down-b gimps, not this... thing that we have now

Change his playsytle to lesser biased toward D-throw? This is a change I want to happen but I can't think of a way to get it done without making him useless or overpowered, or making him to lose his unique character archetype. I mean, they could go bleep and give him better speed while toning down his power, but that would make him closer to Mario and Dr. Mario as he is supposed to be 'MUCH stronger but MUCH slower Mario'. Plus, 'stronger but slower Mario' is Doc's cake. Make him EVEN slower but EVEN stronger? Ganondorf.

And making him centered around SJP? Naaaaaahhhhh. already kind of do that... maybe?

But relying on a move that has 3 seconds of landing lag, leave you open like an idiot, on a character with *** mobility? No.

Yeah I don't like complaining too much either because he's not S tier but he's still a problem and exposing that means we may have a healthier build of the game some day.

IDK. Changing the plumber is fine, as long as he isn't nerfed or buffed too much in the supposed change to alter his playsytle, but again, IDK how they would do that.

I don't think he needs any nerfs or buffs. He is fine and balanced with extreme strengths and weaknesses. IMO, if you lose badly against a Luigi then that probably means you are not abusing his weaknesses enough or just got outplayed.

But I'm a Luigi main so I may be biased so...

 

[Ffamran]

Does Luigi invalidate other characters? Probably. But would they be viable if he were more sensible? I'm not sure. I'm having trouble thinking of a character who would be significantly better in a Luigi-less meta but I could be missing someone.

I don't think Rosalina needs to be nerfed and I only think ZSS does when watching Nairo tbh

Not invalidating, but Fox and Falco. Both sides of players consider Luigi to be a pain for them since we're light, our mistakes mean much more, and we get screwed over by Luigi's shenanigans like Nair through jabs and Luigi Cyclone gimps. A Luigi-less meta wouldn't do much for Fox or Falco, but it would just be nicer for them.

This the same case - in terms of Fox and Falco - for Rosalina except Rosalina's shenanigans are how you can manipulate Luma to do wacky things and certain moves like her Uair and Dair being questionable at times or how Luma's Utilt base knockback is kind of unnecessarily high even though it lasts for 1 frame and only works on grounded opponents.

A Luigi-less and Rosalina-less meta would just further cement Fox's status as a top tier and Falco would probably be guaranteed mid tier without those two... Now we just prevent Shulk and Palutena from ever existing in the meta... Anyway, between Luigi and pre-patch 1.0.6 Diddy, I would choose Diddy. Falco had a decent time against Diddy regardless of patches, but once the Luigi storm kicked in, he and Fox hated that MU to the point where Larry pocketed a Sheik and Luigi, Snow pocketed a Sheik, and Megafox tried to use Little Mac against Luigi if I remember correctly. For Falco, well, there's GimR who just uses his main, Mr. Game & Watch, instead and Keitaro's said he got used to it or something because of False.

Luigi might be the Brawl Triple D of Smash 4. Brawl Wolf is considered a mid tier and who struggles against Triple D, but he does fine overall. In a similar vein, someone like Falco struggles against Luigi, but does pretty well overall. Fortunately, we don't have a Brawl Ganondorf where it's you get invalidated by one character and you're also screwed over by the entire cast, so it's pretty sad and pointless for that character. Not even Smash 4 Samus, Zelda, or whatever considered low or bottom tier characters struggle that hard.

 

[Xeze]

Luigi beats Mario pretty convincingly. Poke won against Ally. Larry's secondary Luigi won against Ally. Mario boards think it's 40:60 soldily in our favor, maybe even 35:65. Maybe it's why Ally lose a ton against Luigi.

And more recently, Mr. ConCon beat Ally, forcing him to go Falcon game 3 (losing anyway).
Mario vs Luigi is also a psychological battle. Mario struggles to get hits in without being interrupted, yet alone getting a kill. Then Luigi gets in once and your % just skyrockets. At 80% or above, specially vs rage Luigi, you are cornered because one grab means you're dead. The same can't be said against Mario where his grab kill setups are very % dependant.
I'd argue Luigi is the worst MU for Mario.

 

[bc1910]

Not invalidating, but Fox and Falco. Both sides of players consider Luigi to be a pain for them since we're light, our mistakes mean much more, and we get screwed over by Luigi's shenanigans like Nair through jabs and Luigi Cyclone gimps. A Luigi-less meta wouldn't do much for Fox or Falco, but it would just be nicer for them.

This the same case - in terms of Fox and Falco - for Rosalina except Rosalina's shenanigans are how you can manipulate Luma to do wacky things and certain moves like her Uair and Dair being questionable at times or how Luma's Utilt base knockback is kind of unnecessarily high even though it lasts for 1 frame and only works on grounded opponents.

A Luigi-less and Rosalina-less meta would just further cement Fox's status as a top tier and Falco would probably be guaranteed mid tier without those two... Now we just prevent Shulk and Palutena from ever existing in the meta... Anyway, between Luigi and pre-patch 1.0.6 Diddy, I would choose Diddy. Falco had a decent time against Diddy regardless of patches, but once the Luigi storm kicked in, he and Fox hated that MU to the point where Larry pocketed a Sheik and Luigi, Snow pocketed a Sheik, and Megafox tried to use Little Mac against Luigi if I remember correctly. For Falco, well, there's GimR who just uses his main, Mr. Game & Watch, instead and Keitaro's said he got used to it or something because of False.

Luigi might be the Brawl Triple D of Smash 4. Brawl Wolf is considered a mid tier and who struggles against Triple D, but he does fine overall. In a similar vein, someone like Falco struggles against Luigi, but does pretty well overall. Fortunately, we don't have a Brawl Ganondorf where it's you get invalidated by one character and you're also screwed over by the entire cast, so it's pretty sad and pointless for that character. Not even Smash 4 Samus, Zelda, or whatever considered low or bottom tier characters struggle that hard.

Yeah, I can understand choosing a more broken character over a less powerful one if your MU against that character is better. I'd probably take prepatch Diddy over current Sheik. Not totally sure on that since he WAS really dumb but he could never abuse a shielding Greninja the same way Sheik can.

At risk of a massive wall of text explaining why Falco sucks...

...I'd argue he's already solidly mid tier. He can do very scary things to you now that he has a coherent game plan up close, and getting grabbed by him is bad news. Even though lasers aren't great, I think he's still pretty good at forcing approaches. He has probably the best reflector in the game which prevents others from zoning him too heavily, and lasers to tack on damage from afar. I'm not saying Falco couldn't use more tuning but I think he's in a decent spot.

 

[TriTails]

And more recently, Mr. ConCon beat Ally, forcing him to go Falcon game 3 (losing anyway).
Mario vs Luigi is also a psychological battle. Mario struggles to get hits in without being interrupted, yet alone getting a kill. Then Luigi gets in once and your % just skyrockets. At 80% or above, specially vs rage Luigi, you are cornered because one grab means you're dead. The same can't be said against Mario where his grab kill setups are very % dependant.
I'd argue Luigi is the worst MU for Mario.

What makes the MU bad is probably because Mario's archetype is now 'speedy weak character' instead of 'balanced all around'. Speed mean less than power vs Luigi. Had Mario got his SSF2 (Toned down. No one wants a 18% U-smash or 19% F-smash (iirc)) damage output and mobility it'll actually be pretty close. Right now you can trade all you want, Luigi is winning. Not to mention you attacks slower than him (F-air is the biggest offender) while having less reward for getting in and getting a grab.

As a Luigi main, I can say I'm happy that he has a favourable MU against a character that is often percieved as Top 5 (IMO, he's not), but as a Mario secondary... yeah, well, crap.

I think Ally would do better with the Hero-King as he at least maybe go even or maybe even beats Luigi slightly. IDK why he chooses Falcon when the MU can be brutal for Falcon if he get grabbed (Still even however). I've yet to see his Falcon tho.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

And then people just tickle you off your Missile and Cyclone, take away your double jump and immediately you find a character that has a worse recovery than Ganondorf.

It doesn't matter how many mixups you can have. End lag is end lag. End of the story. People have yet to stage-spike his SJP, trade with Cyclone, or SPIKE HIS MISSLE DAMMIT!

..Excuse me.


Luigi beats Mario pretty convincingly. Poke won against Ally. Larry's secondary Luigi won against Ally. Mario boards think it's 40:60 soldily in our favor, maybe even 35:65. Maybe it's why Ally lose a ton against Luigi.


Woah wait.

"<90% kill setups"

Whaaaaaat.

Seriously though. Wtf?


He loses too much by vectoring. His kill setups probably will work for lesser degree of percents, he can't combo, can't kill, and... yeah.




Get out of my face.

.


Change his playsytle to lesser biased toward D-throw? This is a change I want to happen but I can't think of a way to get it done without making him useless or overpowered, or making him to lose his unique character archetype. I mean, they could go bleep and give him better speed while toning down his power, but that would make him closer to Mario and Dr. Mario as he is supposed to be 'MUCH stronger but MUCH slower Mario'. Plus, 'stronger but slower Mario' is Doc's cake. Make him EVEN slower but EVEN stronger? Ganondorf.

And making him centered around SJP? Naaaaaahhhhh. already kind of do that... maybe?

But relying on a move that has 3 seconds of landing lag, leave you open like an idiot, on a character with *** mobility? No.


IDK. Changing the plumber is fine, as long as he isn't nerfed or buffed too much in the supposed change to alter his playsytle, but again, IDK how they would do that.

I don't think he needs any nerfs or buffs. He is fine and balanced with extreme strengths and weaknesses. IMO, if you lose badly against a Luigi then that probably means you are not abusing his weaknesses enough or just got outplayed.

But I'm a Luigi main so I may be biased so...

You're right to an extent. The problem is that some charaters don't have the tools to **** on Luigi's major flaws.
However, I do think you're right in that he doesnt need to be nerfed. I think his existance just forces people to have a pocket character for the matchup if they dont use someone like ZSS already.
He is the Dedede of this game. He has FLAWS. But not everyone can exploit them.

 

[Xeze]

As a Luigi main, I can say I'm happy that he has a favourable MU against a character that is often percieved as Top 5 (IMO, he's not), but as a Mario secondary... yeah, well, crap.

I think Ally would do better with the Hero-King as he at least maybe go even or maybe even beats Luigi slightly. IDK why he chooses Falcon when the MU can be brutal for Falcon if he get grabbed (Still even however). I've yet to see his Falcon tho.

Agreed, Mario is nowhere near top 5. He's like top 10. Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Pika, Ness, Sonic, Luigi, Diddy and Fox are all better than him for sure.
As a Mario main, well you can imagine how it feels to be invalidated like that by one character. Granted, it was way worse in Brawl where Mario was invalidated by Meta Knight, Marth and Dedede (while having only a few favorable MUs). Luckily for me, there are no top level Luigi players on my scene. If one gives me trouble, I pull out my Samus.

Marth as a co-main for Ally could work. His Falcon is pretty basic, you can see he only pulls him out of despair. The Hero King would cover Mario's bad MUs better I think.

 

[Nu~]

Can we talk about how Dee, an under the radar Pac-Man main, won a SHI_Gaming tourney with solo Pac-Man yesterday?

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/v/13535789
HIs style is immensely different from Abadango's and he shows that a full-throttle campy style may not be the only way to play Pac-Man.

These are the times he plays on stream:
17:07 - 26:38
1:36:00 - 1:45:27
2:35:24 - 2:42:00
2:57:49 - 3:07:11
3:26:08 - 3:41:00
3:42:43 - 4:11:05

 

[Luigi player]

ZSS: 16 frame grab with a second of cooldown has a lot to do with it, plus the fact that this hoo ha in particular kills at around 140-150% compared to 100-110% and the timing is tight, plus there's about 45 degrees which the opponent can mix their DI within. Down throw to bair is a thing without rage which is pretty strong but again, the riskiest grab in the game along with Samus and a very tight execution window.

Sheik: It's a 50/50 and not always even that, plus it also kills later than Luigi's.

DK and ROB get a pass because their lifes are hard. Then there's Falcon, Diddy, G&W, Lucario and Robin whose hoo has sometimes kinda work but ehh, very harmless.

Yeah, Luigi is a pretty good character. He's still nowhere near as good as Sheik. Where's the problem? Easy to play? Easy, get better and beat them. It shouldn't matter at all how easy a character is to play, because where it matters you need to know how to play really well with your character and the game in general anyway.

Luigis stuff isn't as free as it seems. If you take anything away from him he'd probably be super unviable, unless you nerf all other top tiers to no end. Worst thing that should happen to him should be downB KOing later. Why kill this character? He's super fun to play how he is, although he did lose a lot by having +3 frames of lag on his Fireball, which makes him much slower, less safe, and it's harder to get a reward from it.

I'd even call Luigi unviable in this meta, because he probably couldn't win anything really big. Some of his MUs are just super difficult, mostly because of his recovery being free to gimp. He might be able to get high placings, but not at the top. Just look at the results of any real big tournament and you see that.

ZSS: grabrange that goes 1/4 of the stage, not to mention dashgrab which gets a huge boost to make that even longer, the grab basically almost always beats spotdodges and rolls away from her because the hitboxes stay out so long and has such good range. Jumping away + airdodge is too slow because of the jumpsquat startup frames. Your options are trying to attack her or roll behind her, both of which is really risky with her upB oos and rolling behind can always be risky. Of course if your character is able to you could also throw projectiles and reatreat or something.

I definitely see her grab as being really good. If you manage to avoid it somehow you superlikely won't have time for any hard punish. At best some jabs, dashattack or dashgrab or something. ZSS can also kill you at 50 with a downB if you're unlucky enough to get grabbed or stunned. If you manage to live longer you could get KO'd at 80 from upB or from a bair at the edge of the stage. Or she get's super free juggles from her uair that might even lead to death in combination with upB.

ZSS' is definitely a much bigger problem than Luigi is, people just don't like him because I don't know. They think he's easier. I've always seen people still hate on Luigi on streams and then he loses anyway because the character seems to be overrated.
They should rather be cheering for him since it's so unlikely he'll win.

Sheiks can be 50/50s, but if you get hit and die from it it won't matter to you, I promise. Sometimes they seem like they're true, and good luck avoiding a grab at the % range where she can KO you. Sheiks dashgrab is imo also better than Luigis. She just hunts you down for free, has enough options to keep you guessing, is too fast to react to anything, and needles keep you shielding or in the air.

People are frustrated at Luigi because a fundamentally interesting and original character is being ruined by giving him no incentive to do anything else than fish for grabs because of how overpowered his grab game is compared to his other options.

What... I'm happy Luigi is as fun as he is. Take something away and he gets much less fun, and even less viable. If you like other playstyles, why not play a different character? I can see that his dthrow to downB could be seen as a little too strong, but what if he doesn't have it anymore? What will happen to him? Will he get more lag after dthrow? He'll lose his combos and rewards from his grab that he gets a super low tier character. Take away his downB killpower and he has to fish for usmash like Mario (while being much more vulnerable if you manage to hit him offstage / in the air for his usmash miss).

I don't really see it as a problem, because he's not dominating the scene at all, he doesn't win anything really, and his good placings are getting even rarer. It's not like you can't outplay a Luigi. I know it's stressing and can be difficult and annoying to "just die" from a grab. But you can try to get out of the downB, and there are quite a few characters who will just fall out of downB by themselves anyways. If that happens Luigi struggles superhard to get a kill sometimes.

People are just lazy and want everything nerfed because they don't like it for their selfish reasons. The same thing happened with Diddy Kong. His hoo hah was less threatening than Sheiks or ZSS' is right now. People just didn't DI for **** and cried about it. (though uthrow to uair was super stupid).
The game would be much better would we still be playing the original version that we had on the 3DS. Where we could vector vertically all the time to avoid "broken" throw combos that can KO. There weren't many problems with that and when they removed it things got out of hand a little, because that's not the machanics they had when they created all the things.


TL;DR:

- Luigi barely makes top 10 in the tierlist which could already be arguable with the newest patch.
- He's still overrated even though he got already nerfed and brings less results than before, but people seem to still be living in the past.
- I could really live with downBs middle last hit being a little weaker to not make his KO setups as "free" and "stupid" (the left and right hits which sometimes connect can be vectored down to survive even with Mewtwo at like 170 %), as long as other characters, who are actually good and top of the game get a similar treatment (small nerf).
- Stop crying, he's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

 

[Smog Frog]

"newest patch"? didnt the most recent one come out a month ago?

 

[Yikarur]

www.twitch.tv/gameslines
french stream top8
german winners final me with (small) Mii Brawler/Yoshi against cyve (Sheik/Diddy).
Custom off tournament.
3 Germans Top5.
Germany too gooood

 

[TTTTTsd]

@ Shaya in relation to your list.


- Agreed on entirely.

In fact I'd say so for all but like, Luigi, and Mario.

Luigi is just that character in this game. Have a char in the pocket ready for him that beats him/does well enough against him and it's a lot less annoying. This kind of char pretty much exists in a lot of games, they could change it, but I doubt it's 100% required.

Mario I think needs absolutely no changes, he's fine as is I think, UpSmash and all. Character doesn't really BS you super hard with anything in particular.

On the note of Ryu I think he's pretty well designed and intuitive, and the new shield safety is really helpful and makes him a lot better.

Chars that I think need real substantial buffs and/or minor tweaks are: ,,. That's about it really, everyone else kind of falls in the pecking line. Doc needs a good projectile (easiest fix, most results, least work). Mewtwo needs a lot, as does Samus, but most everyone else feels pretty...solid enough. Strictly opinion, I could be missing some chars that need it but that's how I feel.

To go on a tangent about Doc, a good projectile IASA would fix so much of the problems he has in neutral. Good lord. I know his creation was solely an extra feature (he's just Mario with equipment mods and SOME attribute changes), but I'd like to see this ONE thing get changed cause it would fix so much.

 

[Smog Frog]

please refer to "fixes" as completing the product. he's blatantly unfinished.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I picked up Samus (everyone gasps in shock) and I believe she's not a bottom tier character anymore, but she's not among the middle tier either. I believe Samus should not be at pure bottom, but instead at least 10th to 15th from the bottom of the cast. She's got some great combos such as D-Throw > N-Air on characters like Captain Falcon and Bowser, if you don't want to do F-Air.

N-Air's the safer option out of Down Throw with certain characters because it won't take a full hop to complete, and it's able to put an opponent into decent and quick damage. On C. Falcon, at 50% Falcon will be semi-spiked and it can be followed up into another N-Air, getting rid of his stock.

N-Air being a semi-spike is amazing for edge-guarding and gimping almost all recoveries. If not that, it's also one of the safer gimping options for characters because it's relatively quick and has a decent ability to hit opponents from behind if they manage to get behind Samus.

I'm still trying to discover things with Samus, trying to figure out how to get her to be better, and trying to do a few things. Anyone got good tips with her? I know a bit to win, but not all of it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

please refer to "fixes" as completing the product. he's blatantly unfinished.

I wouldn't say that. You might disagree but he's totally finished as a character, he just sucks because of hilarious (and bad) design oversights, which is a thing in a lot of games.

My only list for him is
- F3 Nair + damage adjustments to account for extra hits
- Ledge action fixes
- Jab hitbox larger vertically
- Maybe a weight adjustment
- Teleport fix (this is universal, his just flubs the most of the three including him who have a teleport.)

It's pretty big compared to Doc who I think literally just needs a more functional projectile to be pretty solid.

Also Roy could stand to do more damage off his grab punishes. Just a bit. Most DLC chars are pretty solid, Mewtwo is the only one who ended up the way he did.

 

[Smog Frog]

eh...i'd completely just fix hitboxes(or make trails less misleading, these are pre-1.0.4 misleading) and just...technical fixes

also **** you . you stole all the time could have had in development to make him functional ;___;

 

[TTTTTsd]

eh...i'd completely just fix hitboxes(or make trails less misleading, these are pre-1.0.4 misleading) and just...technical fixes

also **** you . you stole all the time could have had in development to make him functional ;___;

Both work, but I feel like F3 Nair, Jab, and Ledge fixes would especially help address things that are way undertuned.

 

[RaptorTEC]

@DunnoBro Yoshi does NOT have trouble landing and his recovery is really good. The only characters that give Yoshi a hard time landing are Rosalina and maybe Diddy but they literally do that to everyone. Yoshi is really good at resetting to neutral when he's in a bad spot and this is part of it. You have egg tosses, b reversals or wave bounces (for both movement and punishing), his air speed, threat of a well spaced dair all to land safely. Most characters don't even have an air stall let alone a b reversal that works like Yoshi's (his air speed makes the b reversal even more useful) to land. I'll admit it takes work but when mastered you shouldn't be struggling to land. His recovery is extremely flexible and the only reason it should ever be linear or predictable is if you gave up your dj.

Yoshi's only problem imo is his inability to secure an easy kill and his slow shield.

 

[Xeze]

I'm still trying to discover things with Samus, trying to figure out how to get her to be better, and trying to do a few things. Anyone got good tips with her? I know a bit to win, but not all of it.

Samus has poor OoS options, that's one of her main flaws (Up B is probably the safest). Practice short hop air dodge as it can allow you do to position yourself better to get some hits in.
A setup I tend to do is down throw->jump->bait airdodge->charge shot. U-air strings are a good way to get damage (can be finished with an up B too).

This is just a draft on top of my head. Check the Samus boards to see some more detailed tips on using her.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5txhFO_nQz4

Abadango vs Rain.

Totally relevant to this thread.

 

[Ze Diglett]

On the topic of Mewtwo's hitboxes, can we talk about how tiny his grab box is?
Seriously, it's barely the size of his hand. Also, the grab only stays out for a single frame iirc and Mewtwo's terrible traction makes it impossible to punish with a shieldgrab. If he didn't have actually good throws, I'd say it was more pathetic than Ganondorf's grab game (but at least he has Flame Choke).
Also yeah, his tail hitboxes are pretty misleading, particularly on Bair and Uair. Not to mention F-smash whiffs at point-blank range, and Teleport is just stupid. It honestly feels like we were just given an unfinished first draft of this character.

 

[Radical Larry]

On the topic of Mewtwo's hitboxes, can we talk about how tiny his grab box is?
Seriously, it's barely the size of his hand. Also, the grab only stays out for a single frame iirc and Mewtwo's terrible traction makes it impossible to punish with a shieldgrab. If he didn't have actually good throws, I'd say it was more pathetic than Ganondorf's grab game (but at least he has Flame Choke).
Also yeah, his tail hitboxes are pretty misleading, particularly on Bair and Uair. Not to mention F-smash whiffs at point-blank range, and Teleport is just stupid. It honestly feels like we were just given an unfinished first draft of this character.

See, the thing about Ganondorf's grab game is that it's not actually that bad. It's actually one of the GOOD grab games in the game so far. You'll grab more opponents with Ganondorf's dash grab than Falcon's (because of Falcon's stupid range on dash grab whiffing at point blank).

But about Mewtwo being a "first draft", remember that you're talking about a character who's been made for months, just like Ryu, Lucas and Roy have been. You do not know how to utilize Mewtwo if you say he's just a "first draft" of a character. It shows that you are simply Johning on a character who may be naturally bad, may be potentially good.

 

[Vipermoon]

See, the thing about Ganondorf's grab game is that it's not actually that bad. It's actually one of the GOOD grab games in the game so far. You'll grab more opponents with Ganondorf's dash grab than Falcon's (because of Falcon's stupid range on dash grab whiffing at point blank).

But about Mewtwo being a "first draft", remember that you're talking about a character who's been made for months, just like Ryu, Lucas and Roy have been. You do not know how to utilize Mewtwo if you say he's just a "first draft" of a character. It shows that you are simply Johning on a character who may be naturally bad, may be potentially good.

There is SO MUCH WRONG WITH THIS POST.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

See, the thing about Ganondorf's grab game is that it's not actually that bad. It's actually one of the GOOD grab games in the game so far. You'll grab more opponents with Ganondorf's dash grab than Falcon's (because of Falcon's stupid range on dash grab whiffing at point blank).

lolwut

 

[|RK|]

See, the thing about Ganondorf's grab game is that it's not actually that bad. It's actually one of the GOOD grab games in the game so far. You'll grab more opponents with Ganondorf's dash grab than Falcon's (because of Falcon's stupid range on dash grab whiffing at point blank).

But about Mewtwo being a "first draft", remember that you're talking about a character who's been made for months, just like Ryu, Lucas and Roy have been. You do not know how to utilize Mewtwo if you say he's just a "first draft" of a character. It shows that you are simply Johning on a character who may be naturally bad, may be potentially good.

I can never tell if you're being serious or not. But I appreciate you either way :-)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

@ Shaya in relation to your list.


- Agreed on entirely.

In fact I'd say so for all but like, Luigi, and Mario.

Luigi is just that character in this game. Have a char in the pocket ready for him that beats him/does well enough against him and it's a lot less annoying. This kind of char pretty much exists in a lot of games, they could change it, but I doubt it's 100% required.

Mario I think needs absolutely no changes, he's fine as is I think, UpSmash and all. Character doesn't really BS you super hard with anything in particular.

On the note of Ryu I think he's pretty well designed and intuitive, and the new shield safety is really helpful and makes him a lot better.

Chars that I think need real substantial buffs and/or minor tweaks are: ,,. That's about it really, everyone else kind of falls in the pecking line. Doc needs a good projectile (easiest fix, most results, least work). Mewtwo needs a lot, as does Samus, but most everyone else feels pretty...solid enough. Strictly opinion, I could be missing some chars that need it but that's how I feel.

To go on a tangent about Doc, a good projectile IASA would fix so much of the problems he has in neutral. Good lord. I know his creation was solely an extra feature (he's just Mario with equipment mods and SOME attribute changes), but I'd like to see this ONE thing get changed cause it would fix so much.

Doc doesn't need that. In neutral he has Bair and dtilt as safe pokes with Bair being completely safe on block and autocancels from a SHFF. You aren't supposed to try and play the Neutral in a similar way to Mario's. Sure, a better projectile would be nice, but he doesnt "need" one.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Doc's neutral is hardly good. A better projectile would do wonders.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc doesn't need that. In neutral he has Bair and dtilt as safe pokes with Bair being completely safe on block and autocancels from a SHFF. You aren't supposed to try and play the Neutral in a similar way to Mario's. Sure, a better projectile would be nice, but he doesnt "need" one.

Having a good fireball in neutral is by no means playing it the same as Mario's. I encourage you to try and understand what I'm saying, Doc's neutral is lacking because it is linear and being able to be creative with a projectile would help that, and yes, I engage in discussion with Docs about this a lot, I'm in a skype group that has our best recorded player (2ManyCooks) and it's pretty well agreed on. There's a reason people pick Fast Pill with Doc, his movement doesn't let him get that creative in the neutral and a good projectile would absolutely do that.

I find it to be one of his biggest flaws, personally, having spent the time with this character at launch until now and being mostly correct about him after long deliberation and early meta hurdles.

He doesn't "need" anything, but this would fix SO MUCH ISSUES. Even Mario doesn't have a good fireball, it's only...."ok."

 

[Conda]

Doc doesn't need that. In neutral he has Bair and dtilt as safe pokes with Bair being completely safe on block and autocancels from a SHFF. You aren't supposed to try and play the Neutral in a similar way to Mario's. Sure, a better projectile would be nice, but he doesnt "need" one.

He doesn't "need" one if he wants to stay where he is viability-wise. He needs -something-. A projectile will let his horrible mobility not be as big a negative (look at other slow/not-so-mobile characters who've got projectiles to make up for it).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu's newfound safety did raise my interest in the character again since he now has spammable aerials that won't be obliterated by shields and his other moves won't be as easily punished anymore either. That's really the thing that most threw me off in addition to hadoken being terrible and SF inputs working pretty badly in this game because you can turn around and also all Ryu's color palettes being boring aside from the default.

Really though Ryu's falling nair gives him frame advantage on shields vs characters who lack a 1 frame jab.

That's 53 out of 55 characters. And he trades with Mac's and ZSS' jabs.

I wonder if they thought about that.

I was totally with you till you said Hadouken is terrible. like what?

Also if you cant do SF inputs on analog im sorry but you need to git gud.

I played Ivy in Soul Caliber 2 for gamecube.

THAT was hard.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Having a good fireball in neutral is by no means playing it the same as Mario's. I encourage you to try and understand what I'm saying, Doc's neutral is lacking because it is linear and being able to be creative with a projectile would help that, and yes, I engage in discussion with Docs about this a lot, I'm in a skype group that has our best recorded player (2ManyCooks) and it's pretty well agreed on. There's a reason people pick Fast Pill with Doc, his movement doesn't let him get that creative in the neutral and a good projectile would absolutely do that.

I find it to be one of his biggest flaws, personally, having spent the time with this character at launch until now and being mostly correct about him after long deliberation and early meta hurdles.

He doesn't "need" anything, but this would fix SO MUCH ISSUES. Even Mario doesn't have a good fireball, it's only...."ok."

Fair enough. If they buff the IASA I just hope it keeps the Sakurai angle for Pill resets.

 

[Pyr]

I was totally with you till you said Hadouken is terrible. like what?

Also if you cant do SF inputs on analog im sorry but you need to git gud.

I played Ivy in Soul Caliber 2 for gamecube.

THAT was hard.

For a little bit of context, Ivy had some of the most insane command grab inputs I've ever seen. One is as follows:

d/f, u/b, f, d, d/f, d/b, (whip stance) A+K

Or +(I think X was kick)

It was hard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ryu's newfound safety did raise my interest in the character again since he now has spammable aerials that won't be obliterated by shields and his other moves won't be as easily punished anymore either. That's really the thing that most threw me off in addition to hadoken being terrible and SF inputs working pretty badly in this game because you can turn around and also all Ryu's color palettes being boring aside from the default.

Really though Ryu's falling nair gives him frame advantage on shields vs characters who lack a 1 frame jab.

That's 53 out of 55 characters. And he trades with Mac's and ZSS' jabs.

I wonder if they thought about that.

You really seriously think the SF inputs are hard to deal with? Bruh, that ain't even the hardest part of playing Ryu. Try actually spacing correctly in neutral and realize how much precision and forethought it requires.

I hate being tech heavy in my gameplay, but I can whip out D-tilt hit confirms into either SRK or Shakanetsu reliably. But that doesn't hold a candle to just spacing Ryu's B-air correctly in terms of execution difficulty.

 

[san.]

How is spacing Ryu's bair difficult? It has low landing lag and comes out quickly.