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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Gunla

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Ironically enough, he actually broke a nail while playing and was bleeding. Hence, he did indeed bleed.

But yes, it's becoming more and more clear that people are beginning to catch up, much like in the Brawl days with M2K and his MK. This will definitely put Vinnie in the spotlight for justified reasons, because that was a gorgeous performance.
 

|RK|

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AND MIKEKIRBY ALMOST BEAT VINNIE IN SETS BEFORE!!!!

NOW PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT KIRBY'S HIGH TIER
No.
1) Almost is for horseshoes and hand grenades.

2) Kirby is not high tier. Please stop - you make it difficult for the rest of us to discuss Kirby in a positive light.
 
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Wintermelon43

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I was being mainly sarcastic

By mainly I mean that it's possible that either Mikekirby is better than it seems or (And this is way more likely) ZeRo isn't as good as was was since people are starting to do better aganist him. Otherwise that was sarcasum
 
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Vipermoon

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So what characters did ZeRo use for which matches (in GFs)?
 

meleebrawler

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when like 1/3rd of a character's moves don't have proper hitboxes i think you can tell they're not finished
When you actually learn to use to use the moves instead of just looking at videos and pics designed to make them look as bad as possible, you'll almost never get tripped up by them. Pre-patch Meta Knight's hitboxes were honestly worse since even when you knew the actual range of his moves, it was still hard to space them properly on account of the visuals obscuring said range, so you pretty much had to be point blank to be sure.

A lot of the griping about Mewtwo's hitboxes seems to come from wishful thinking of what they could have been. I'm sure people would love to have an uair/utilt that completely hits all around, a bair that almost rivals Sheik's in startup and walling potential etc.

Really, all of Mewtwo's moves function perfectly well once you know how they work, and that in my eyes makes him NOT unfinished. There are only two buffs that I would really like to see: more range and damage on utilt to give more of a niche compared to usmash, and making his uair stronger and/or faster to make his juggling more potent. Anything else I see anybody suggest I feel is just gravy.
 

Ray-Den

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So whats up with the rumor, that tommorow launches a new patch. I heard of this now multiple times when people mentioned it in the twitch chat.
 

A_Kae

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So whats up with the rumor, that tommorow launches a new patch. I heard of this now multiple times when people mentioned it in the twitch chat.
There's server maintenance occurring tomorrow. Judging by the time that it's happening (6pm pst I think)?, it's likely that there's going to be a patch. Actual maintenance usually happens midnight pst, while the patches have during the day.

Of course, there might not be a patch, the patch might not be a balance patch, or it's just for DLC. We don't know anything more than that right now.

Edit: Source for maintenance: http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp
 
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Emblem Lord

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There's server maintenance occurring tomorrow. Judging by the time that it's happening (6pm pst I think)?, it's likely that there's going to be a patch. Actual maintenance usually happens midnight pst, while the patches have during the day.

Of course, there might not be a patch, the patch might not be a balance patch, or it's just for DLC. We don't know anything more than that right now.

Edit: Source for maintenance: http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp
Ryu buffs Ryu buffs Ryu buffs les go les go les go les go

BASED SAKURAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIII!!!
 

Vipermoon

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It hasn't even been a month since the last one and only even number versions have balance changes so far.
 

Illuminose

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He's beaten Vinnie 2 or 3 times.. O.o
Vinnie has also improved a lot since being at Sky's house. He has the best tech and combo game of any Sheik period at this point, which isn't really something you could say before this summer.
 

HeavyLobster

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It hasn't even been a month since the last one and only even number versions have balance changes so far.
It does feel too soon for balance patches, unless they're Sheik nerfs of course. A new patch every couple of months is probably too often, and this would be even shorter than that.
 

Blobface

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If there really is a patch tomorrow it'll definitely be a small one.
Vinnie has also improved a lot since being at Sky's house. He has the best tech and combo game of any Sheik period at this point, which isn't really something you could say before this summer.
Also Sky's house is apparently some sort of hyperbolic time chamber now.
 
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Smog Frog

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i just want this patch to complete products. namely :4mewtwo: and :4samus:. no nerfs are needed.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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The patch is most likely going to fix bugs and glitches in the game. It mighr improve tournament mode as well, not sure. Balance patch is very unlikely though.
 

NachoOfCheese

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I'm usually wrong when it comes to this "possible balance patch" stuff so....

SHEIK IS GETTING MAJOR BUFFS TO NEEDLES AND FAIR! Wolf will be deconfirmed. Sonic will be buffed to his former glory and they will replace the sound effect of all of Falcon's moves to explosions.

Jk but for real, theyve nerfed Shiek so many times that you'd think she'd be bad by now.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Jk but for real, theyve nerfed Shiek so many times that you'd think she'd be bad by now.
Its funny that you mention that because Sheik is actually getting indirectly buffed each patch since the other top are getting nerfed even harder than her. I honestly think she was more balanced in 1.0.4 because she lost to diddy kong.
 

Djent

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Sheik's basic design struggles to be bad.

Even when she was "bad" in Brawl, she only got roflstomped in 2 MUs, and vs. MK was arguably not one of them. She exploited the mechanics in that game too (ftilt locked until like 50% on some characters) but others did it worse back to her.

I mean sure, if all her moves did 1% she'd suck, but within the reasonably expectable scope of changes, none of them can really bring her below mid tier (including another needle nerf).
 

**Gilgamesh**

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Mr.R :4sheik: defeats Nairo:4zss: 3-1 in Grand Finals of Alberta Beat Down 2015.

So after watching top level sheik play, It really seems like Sheik meta is becoming more and more dangerous by the months as top level sheiks improve on their neutral game and conversions on combo's. I really wonder what can they do to :4sheik: if they Ever decide to nerf her without her losing to every top tier in the game while also preventing her from invalidating most of the cast at Top Level?

@ Shaya Shaya What are your thoughts on sheik's meta-game development? Do you think she will become even more dangerous then what she already is?
 

Trifroze

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Sheik just needs a weakness because currently she does everything really well, she racks up so much damage and keeps advantage so easily that it doesn't really matter when her opponents live to 150%. I don't know if she needs a recovery nerf, needle nerf, fair/bair/nerf safety nerfs or just general toning down until her reward settles low enough that it's balanced with her godlike neutral.

Sheik isn't the only one in the game who has aerials that 95% of the cast can't punish on powershield (shoutouts to Marth's and Lucina's fsmashes though), but she has 3 of them at the moment along with the best projectile in the game. Needles aren't great just for punishing or preventing opponents from using projectiles, but also for setting up into kills like bouncing fish.

Also for those who don't know, you can indeed attack and jump immediately from powershield but if you try to dash, walk or turn around you have to go through shield drop frames. Some aerials have so much range that nothing else than dash attacks or dash grabs have the range to punish them, but it takes too long to get them out because of the extra frames you have to go through after powershielding. Hence, aerials with a lot of range and low landing lag are ultimately unpunishable except for very few select options like <12 frame tilts and smashes that reach far, or <6-7 frame aerials (depending on your jump squat) that have a lot of range, like Sheik's, Marth's and Lucina's fairs.

I haven't looked into this fully but there seems to be only a few aerials in the game that fit this description of having low enough landing lag to not get punished by dash attacks as well as long enough range to stay out of reach from every jab and most tilts in the game. Here's a list of moves like these that I've come up with off the top of my head:

Sheik
- Fair: in a league of its own but there are a few things that can punish it, mainly <10 frame long reaching tilts)
- Bair: a tiny bit less range and 2 frames more landing lag so punishable by Marth's fsmash but no dash attacks

ZSS
- Nair: has more range than Sheik's fair and landing lag is as low, however it has electric properties so the extra few frames of hitlag make it punishable by moves like Marth's fsmash and Wario's dash attack
- Bair: again, more range than Sheik's and 1 frame less landing lag, probably a runner-up for Sheik's fair in terms of safety on shield

Palutena
- Fair: great range, probably comparable to Sheik's bair in its safety because it has similar damage and the same landing lag

Ryu
- Bair: comparable to Sheik's bair in range and landing lag, more hitlag though so punishable by Wario's, Fox's and maybe Sheik's dash attacks in addition to the other things

Link
- Fair: yeah
 

Shaya

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If there really is a patch tomorrow it'll definitely be a small one.

Also Sky's house is apparently some sort of hyperbolic time chamber now.
It's always been like that. I stayed for nearly 3 months. I'm secretly wearing super weighted clothing until I can go back to finish the polishing.

If a patch does come, which I bring up as a possibility, and it brings in balance changes, it would help to prove my point that there are two separately functioning teams working on balance at the same time.

-

Sheik is really scary.
After Luigi and Ness, she has the scariest/best dash grab, and honestly the best "non-abusive" grab game bar none. With the amount of space she controls up close, mid range, and afar that only can be handled by shield, she's now looking somewhat close to omnipotent in her game plan at this stage of the meta, already. Summer + the three best sheiks in the world training together and everyone and their mother sapping at the advancements they can take, she's skyrocketed ahead of just about the entire cast significantly in capabilities and in game potential.

She has 4 functional throws that trap into the same stuff, allowing her to force DI mix ups she can capitalize on.The entire game is about holding shield against her now and she absolutely annihilates it (having neutral options like needles that shield cancel out of runs/etc), this allows her as a character to keep her throws really stale so they guaranteed combo into up air at kill percent (it can do so with the right rage as well otherwise); it's a lot of numbers to remember but top players are getting them down. Diddy is close to the best neutral in the game, he can play even with Sheik, everyone else now seems to just be always in a disadvantaged state against her passively/actively.

In terms of development, Grenade is actually AMAZING when used properly... something we didn't see much of before. Bouncing fish confirms out of all of her aerials, especially sour ones, and aerial needle and grounded movement shenanigans are starting to show form. Vanish gives her a hard read option with out much risk for fantastic reward and has traps for a lot of characters with it off stage (Jiggs would probably swap her rest for it; is it painting a picture?). Nasty. People have gotten better at getting Up smash traps with tippers, and it's a pretty strong kill move as I'm sure people know...

What's the only not used move of Sheik right now? Down Air and Down Smash. She's the most complete/perfect character in the cast by far (right now) with only having 2 sub-average moves.
 
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David Viran

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Sheik just needs a weakness because currently she does everything really well, she racks up so much damage and keeps advantage so easily that it doesn't really matter when her opponents live to 150%. I don't know if she needs a recovery nerf, needle nerf, fair/bair/nerf safety nerfs or just general toning down until her reward settles low enough that it's balanced with her godlike neutral.

Sheik isn't the only one in the game who has aerials that 95% of the cast can't punish on powershield (shoutouts to Marth's and Lucina's fsmashes though), but she has 3 of them at the moment along with the best projectile in the game. Needles aren't great just for punishing or preventing opponents from using projectiles, but also for setting up into kills like bouncing fish.

Also for those who don't know, you can indeed attack and jump immediately from powershield but if you try to dash, walk or turn around you have to go through shield drop frames. Some aerials have so much range that nothing else than dash attacks or dash grabs have the range to punish them, but it takes too long to get them out because of the extra frames you have to go through after powershielding. Hence, aerials with a lot of range and low landing lag are ultimately unpunishable except for very few select options like <12 frame tilts and smashes that reach far, or <6-7 frame aerials (depending on your jump squat) that have a lot of range, like Sheik's, Marth's and Lucina's fairs.

I haven't looked into this fully but there seems to be only a few aerials in the game that fit this description of having low enough landing lag to not get punished by dash attacks as well as long enough range to stay out of reach from every jab and most tilts in the game. Here's a list of moves like these that I've come up with off the top of my head:

Sheik
- Fair: in a league of its own but there are a few things that can punish it, mainly <10 frame long reaching tilts)
- Bair: a tiny bit less range and 2 frames more landing lag so punishable by Marth's fsmash but no dash attacks

ZSS
- Nair: has more range than Sheik's fair and landing lag is as low, however it has electric properties so the extra few frames of hitlag make it punishable by moves like Marth's fsmash and Wario's dash attack
- Bair: again, more range than Sheik's and 1 frame less landing lag, probably a runner-up for Sheik's fair in terms of safety on shield

Palutena
- Fair: great range, probably comparable to Sheik's bair in its safety because it has similar damage and the same landing lag

Ryu
- Bair: comparable to Sheik's bair in range and landing lag, more hitlag though so punishable by Wario's, Fox's and maybe Sheik's dash attacks in addition to the other things

Link
- Fair: yeah
Is sheik's fair assuming a perfect auto cancel?
 

Wtfwasthat

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I honestly think that if they removed the invincibility on sheiks up b or lowered the invincibility frames a little bit she would be perfect
 

Trifroze

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Is sheik's fair assuming a perfect auto cancel?
Actually it's not, they all consider that you land the next frame. It doesn't seem to make its case any better though, it's either exactly the same as using it a frame before you land or one frame less safe.

What's the only not used move of Sheik right now? Down Air and Down Smash. She's the most complete/perfect character in the cast by far (right now) with only having 2 sub-average moves.
Someone didn't watch Pax or read M2K's twitter :4dedede:
 
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Mario766

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Ike's Back Air could be on that list. It has higher landing lag than Sheik/ZSS' back air at 19 but the sheer range of Ragnell more than makes up for it.
 

David Viran

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Actually it's not, they all consider that you land the next frame. It doesn't seem to make its case any better though, it's either exactly the same as using it a frame before you land or one frame less safe.



Someone didn't watch Pax or read M2K's twitter :4dedede:
I'm pretty sure a perfect auto cancel makes sheiks fair -5 on shield. If it lands a frame before landing it is -8 I believe and zss's bair is actually -7 so in terms of frame safety zss's bair is better than sheik's fair when landing immediately.
 

Shaya

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When you auto cancel forward air you're likely hitting someone on the final frame of the hitbox, which is frame 7. That's giving 4 + 2 frames of lag with 2? shield stun.

Also I'm closed to being able to release the next "survey". I may be going deeper this time and hopefully that won't be a bad thing. Not much will change I'd say (I just want to get that 20 player milestone, waiting on 2 who are together like going to water parks then playing smash) but I'm currently thinking I have enough fair data consistency to do the following:

Top 18 (maybe 5 unordered extra characters)

Bottom 18. With a 10/8 split (unordered within).

Why am I spoiling? Eh, just in case there's a patch that ruins everything :p
Oh and to ask opinions on this expansion, I suppose. This means I could be listing close to 40 characters in the cast, which is actually pretty expansive and would almost indicate a full tier list naturally. Is it too early?
What do people think?
 
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Mario766

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Talking about Ike, Ryo has been practicing footstool combos and his results are looking crisp.

He was able to convert down throw into a footstool down air spike -> Falling up air -> Aerial of his choice. He whiffed the follow-up on Ross in his latest tourney but still did 34 percent, which options up to 47 if he hit the back air which is easily doable. This could make his fast fall Mus better if people start getting down footstool combos, and San has already shown that more damage is doable off low percent n-air follow-ups with a footstool loop for upwards of 60+ damage.

All this requires slight DI reads but besides that should be easily practiced in the lab for tournament play. Ike may get a little out of hand if he gets more buffs unless it's something like his IASA getting lowered on aerials or jab 1 being 1 frame faster which would only help his ground game/safety.
 
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