Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[**Gilgamesh**]

Indeed. I had to take a shot of that.
http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-20150830231857574

Mr.R also did that to Nairo at Alberta, it seems like every move that Sheik has can be utilized well enough if labbed with. What I am really interested in is seeing some more difficult characters like or being pushed more. We have already seen that Peach has potential due to Slayerz really showing out the character at the Socal regional.

 

[Trifroze]

The thing about hitting someone's shield with the last frame of the hitbox is that since shields expand much further than the character's hurtbox, hitting a shield with the last frame of a hitbox would require you to actually misspace your aerial.

 

[Shaya]

The thing about hitting someone's shield with the last frame of the hitbox is that since shields expand much further than the character's hurtbox, hitting a shield with the last frame of a hitbox would require you to actually misspace your aerial.

This is kinda the standard for high level spacing in general, space for shield which also accounts for most characters movement animations when acting that you cannot react to, clutch/notice react to not shield and maneuver forward if necessary. If you're potent at spacing like this, people are going to struggle even if you do whiff them as it's requires a read more so than something you can react to.

Marth's neutral air (still good for this) kinda gives you the idea, I coined it back in Brawl as the carrot and stick (something something horse) analogy:
Marth's first hit of neutral air is shorter range than his second hit.
If you space for the first hit on shield you're also covering people expanding closer, being at the right spacing and retreating around the first hit is exceptionally safe (to the opponent it's the carrot). If you don't power shield (even if you do...) the first hit you cannot do any attack before the second hit will come out, this protects him (this is the stick).

If the first hit connects, even if you're retreating you'll still find yourself landing the tipper on the second hit, if they shield drop poorly or don't shield then the second hit exists to cover that space between them. It also strikes a third time, at slightly longer range, and this hit would kill MK centre stage at like 80% (110% with perfect DI/momentum cancelling) back in Brawl so it was super risky to challenge it.
I only ever fought three players who knew how to deal with this properly (over just respecting it) in the Brawl era: Tyrant, Mew2King and Ramin (i.e. all better Marth players than I). The main difference now is that it doesn't auto cancel 3 frames after the hitbox ends (which timed well to a shff!), it can't be + on shields anymore :<

 

[Rashyboy05]

Seeing as how ZeRo tends to complain about Luigi's grab and the other movesets of Mii Brawler. This is pretty funny.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[TriTails]

Seeing as how ZeRo tends to complain about Luigi's grab and the other movesets of Mii Brawler. This is pretty funny.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That's... exactly how you handle Luigi.

Replace Sheik with Luigi, her with him, and Diddy with Sheik and boom!

 

[bc1910]

Once again Zero's ego blinds him on the facts. There have been multiple Diddy players continuing to perform well against Sheik after the nerfs, such as MVD. There is little evidence to suggest that Sheik is actually a bad matchup for Diddy. It's probably even.

 

[Smog Frog]

i have a question: does trouble killing equate to "i struggle ending stocks before 150%" or "i struggle landing kill moves"?

also i think he was talking about having a bad mu...

 

[outfoxd]

i have a question: does trouble killing equate to "i struggle ending stocks before 150%" or "i struggle landing kill moves"?

also i think he was talking about having a bad mu...

An amalgam of both, but more the second. I think it's easier to play out a stock longer if you know you still have a reliable confirm.

Of course, some characters have trouble with both scenarios...

HahahahahahaGodWhy

 

[Balgorxz]

Once again Zero's ego blinds him on the facts. There have been multiple Diddy players continuing to perform well against Sheik after the nerfs, such as MVD. There is little evidence to suggest that Sheik is actually a bad matchup for Diddy. It's probably even.

it's even, angel and mvd do pretty well against sheiks and struggle against more uncommon characters.
diddy relies a lot in creativity now making him a less safe pick for a man that doesn't want to lose, my prediction is that when he loses (probably in 1 or 2 months from now) he will start going back to diddy more often.

 

[TriTails]

i have a question: does trouble killing equate to "i struggle ending stocks before 150%" or "i struggle landing kill moves"?

Both, but it's mostly the latter.

 

[bc1910]

i have a question: does trouble killing equate to "i struggle ending stocks before 150%" or "i struggle landing kill moves"?

also i think he was talking about having a bad mu...

You could be right, it's not clear actually... but I'm inclined to think he's saying people need to learn to fight Sheik as he's proving she's beatable with Diddy, who has a "bad MU" against her.

I usually take trouble killing to mean the latter. The former is less of a problem if your character has a good neutral game, since you'll be able to draw stocks out and avoid dying to rage, then presumably kill with an easy kill move. Sheik is an example since she has few kill moves and her hoo hah doesn't kill for quite a while, but she can slap you around for as long as she wants. Greninja is much better at killing early than Sheik but he can safely draw stocks out too if he has to, by camping you out with shurikens until Uthrow kills.

With the latter, you can have characters that have a bunch of kill moves around 100% but don't really gain any more for the extra percent they tack on. Fox is an example, whether you're at 100% or 200% against him his kill moves are pretty much the same.

Fox's kill moves are good so he's not the best example. But if you struggle to land kill moves and don't have an easy to land move (preferably a throw) that kills or sets up kills at 150% plus, that's what I take as struggling to kill. Bowser Jr. would be an example.

 

[outfoxd]

You could be right, it's not clear actually... but I'm inclined to think he's saying people need to learn to fight Sheik as he's proving she's beatable with Diddy, who has a "bad MU" against her.

I usually take trouble killing to mean the latter. The former is less of a problem if your character has a good neutral game, since you'll be able to draw stocks out and avoid dying to rage, then presumably kill with an easy kill move. Sheik is an example since she has few kill moves and her hoo hah doesn't kill for quite a while, but she can slap you around for as long as she wants. Greninja is much better at killing early than Sheik but he can safely draw stocks out too if he has to, by camping you out with shurikens until Uthrow kills.

With the latter, you can have characters that have a bunch of kill moves around 100% but don't really gain any more for the extra percent they tack on. Fox is an example, whether you're at 100% or 200% against him his kill moves are pretty much the same.

Fox's kill moves are good so he's not the best example. But if you struggle to land kill moves and don't have an easy to land move (preferably a throw) that kills or sets up kills at 150% plus, that's what I take as struggling to kill. Bowser Jr. would be an example.

Duck hunt is the benchmark, i feel. Few if his moves ko unless extreme circumstances are met. His smashes are still unreliable. So far there's few kill confirms outside of elaborat3 rube goldberg scenarios. Even his uair, his most reliable option, is a long time in killing. Also we have a spike, but its weak, slow, and our predictable recoveey makes offstage a hard gamble.

We're a mosquito. We fly around and just piss you off, but occasionally we give you malaria and you die.

 

[Jabejazz]

See, the thing about Ganondorf's grab game is that it's not actually that bad. It's actually one of the GOOD grab games in the game so far. You'll grab more opponents with Ganondorf's dash grab than Falcon's (because of Falcon's stupid range on dash grab whiffing at point blank).

But about Mewtwo being a "first draft", remember that you're talking about a character who's been made for months, just like Ryu, Lucas and Roy have been. You do not know how to utilize Mewtwo if you say he's just a "first draft" of a character. It shows that you are simply Johning on a character who may be naturally bad, may be potentially good.

You have no idea how much I missed your posts man.

I played Ivy in Soul Caliber 2 for gamecube.

Try SF4 C.Viper on a gamepad.

Oh and to ask opinions on this expansion, I suppose. This means I could be listing close to 40 characters in the cast, which is actually pretty expansive and would almost indicate a full tier list naturally. Is it too early?
What do people think?

"Too early for a tier list" is a recurring meme that just won't die, isn't it?
Truth is, we all pretty much have a rough idea of what the placings look like. People are just scared to call their list a "tier list", otherwise Big Bad Shaya will infract you. It also will always be "too early", because we always know there's a little something about that one character nobody plays that hasn't been figured out.

This thread is (for the most part) exempt of garbage ****posting (to my dismay). People can take stuff they read here with a grain of salt™. If anything, it'll promote discussion and questioning if the placement isn't what we expected.
We also eventually need a first draft if we want a second one.

I for one welcome the First Official Smashboard Tier List™, sponsored by Shaya©.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem with making an official tier list isn't that it'd be too early but that every new patch would threaten to invalidate it. Considering the amount of balance patches we've had so far we could have come up with like 5 or 6 tier lists and every single one of them would already be obsolete.

And the game hasn't even been out for a year yet.

 

[Rashyboy05]

How long did it take for Brawl to develop an official tier list? I feel like making an official tier now when the game is still early is pretty pointless as over time the perceived top tiers may go down a tier or two. The fact that this game has balance patches doesn't help at all.

 

[DunnoBro]

Diddy vs Sheik is probably 40/60.

Diddy contends with her fine in the neutral and pressures her pretty good. But the fact he can just get gimped makes momentum easier to build on him.

 

[Shaya]

I still wouldn't call it an official tier list, it's just I'd have 1-18 and unordered groups of 5/12roughly/9/9, it would be essentially covering the whole cast while not fully grasping out the centre.

Maybe with more people and a little more time :3
And oh yeah, patches.

 

[Jabejazz]

There's the mindset that people want a list early and adapt it as people find new strats / develop MUs / patchs come and go. Basically have a list for the sake of having one and discussing placements.

And there's the mindset that "we should wait because we don't know enough about the game just yet and the list might too inaccurate". And while I understand the feeling, a first list hardly ever is accurate, no matter how long you wait (or you wait long enough that the tier list isn't really relevant anymore).

I don't exactly mind either way. I just think the "too early" argument is moot. It will always be "too early", since we know the game will change without our input/research thanks to patches, that shouldn't stop us from having a solid draft that can (and will) be adapted over time.

I still wouldn't call it an official tier list,

I thought as much, I just wanted to scare people.

 

[Gawain]

Here's the thing about tier lists. Even in fighters like Marvel/UNIEL etc, the only "lists" that really matter are the ones that the top competitors create. They're the ones that are actually pulling results. They're the ones that have the best understanding of the game. You can theorycraft all day from home but it doesn't really mean anything without something backing it up. This is why I'm not fond of "community" tier lists. They don't mean anything.

 

[bc1910]

I used to say we shouldn't worry about patches because they've barely affected most characters' viability but looking back we've actually had quite a few movers, especially recently.

, and have all been made significantly better.

has risen a lot, whether this is down to people figuring him out over time or the buffs he's gotten isn't clear but I'd say both.

keeps yo-yoing up and down.

I'm not opposed to holding off on an official tier list until patching stops. I think continually updating the character rankings and building rough lists every patch is fine, though. I like the idea of a top 18, bottom 18 and murky middle.

 

[Zage]

With the threat of frequent patches, there really isn't that much we can gain from making a tier list. Smash isn't really like other fighters in the sense that patches happen once a year. We know who the top contenders are for top/bottom tier, which will be much more crucial information than knowing the difference in strength of those inbetween. Until we hit that final patch anyway.

 

[DunnoBro]

Could always just remove characters that have been edited significantly in recent times from the tier list. The only thing that would effect unchanged characters much is counters to them being changed.

 

[LightLV]

Here's the thing about tier lists. Even in fighters like Marvel/UNIEL etc, the only "lists" that really matter are the ones that the top competitors create. They're the ones that are actually pulling results. They're the ones that have the best understanding of the game. You can theorycraft all day from home but it doesn't really mean anything without something backing it up. This is why I'm not fond of "community" tier lists. They don't mean anything.

Thank you...communities should pool their resources into creating MU threads for their respective characters, something that's actually useful. A tier list devised by For Glory warriors and people who don't attend or even spectate tournaments isn't useful in the slightest. It just comes down to people cosigning opinions and stereotypes.

Talking about Ike, Ryo has been practicing footstool combos and his results are looking crisp.

Are they REAL footstool combos? I haven't see a single footstool setup that isn't completely invalidated by a player simply usnig DI or jumping as soon as they recover.

 

[Shaya]

Here's the thing about tier lists. Even in fighters like Marvel/UNIEL etc, the only "lists" that really matter are the ones that the top competitors create. They're the ones that are actually pulling results. They're the ones that have the best understanding of the game. You can theorycraft all day from home but it doesn't really mean anything without something backing it up. This is why I'm not fond of "community" tier lists. They don't mean anything.

Have you read the first page before?

 

[Trifroze]

Here's the thing about tier lists. Even in fighters like Marvel/UNIEL etc, the only "lists" that really matter are the ones that the top competitors create. They're the ones that are actually pulling results. They're the ones that have the best understanding of the game. You can theorycraft all day from home but it doesn't really mean anything without something backing it up. This is why I'm not fond of "community" tier lists. They don't mean anything.

Thank you...communities should pool their resources into creating MU threads for their respective characters, something that's actually useful. A tier list devised by For Glory warriors and people who don't attend or even spectate tournaments isn't useful in the slightest. It just comes down to people cosigning opinions and stereotypes.

Not sure if you completely follow, but quoting the opening post the list received input from:

@Nairo @Dabuz @LarryLurr @MVD @ESAM
@6WX @NickRiddle @Seagull Joe @RichBrown @8Bitman
@Xzax @AeroLink @Rayquaza07 * @Espy Rose @J.Miller

The rest of us are really just in it for interesting conversation and info sharing. Also, I dare to claim that a single top player's tier list can potentially be almost as bad as something like Eventhubs voting list since everyone has subjective experiences and some have fairly strong bias or an agenda, although most probably don't. However it's only really when you combine all the top players' opinions together when you get an actually accurate tier list (let's remember a tier list reflects the meta of its time), and as far as I know SWF tier lists have always tried to do that.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's close to midnight and something evil's lurking in the dark
Under the moonlight you see a sight that almost stops your heart
You try to scream, but terror takes the sound before you make it
You start to freeze as horror looks you right between the eyes
You're paralyzed

IT'S THE /r/smashbros MONTHLY VOTED TIER LIST!
​

Since we're talking about tier lists... lol. Here's the chance once again to see how the general masses feel on characters and discuss. Also as a worthy side note, I'll be retiring from the /r/smashbros content team after this is done. So I dunno if people will post rresults or keep things updated here in the future (that's up to the rest of the team there). So yeah guys, all that and stuff.

 

[|RK|]

i have a question: does trouble killing equate to "i struggle ending stocks before 150%" or "i struggle landing kill moves"?

also i think he was talking about having a bad mu...

Nope. Post match interview he said that Sheik vs Diddy is a -2 matchup for Diddy.

 

[Routa]

Tier list made by top players would most likely only have characters that are solo viable (basically tier list would have only 10 characters). Is it a tier list anymore? And lets be real here... from time to time the top players tier lists are full of ****. And then comes the West vs East thing. From time to time it feels like having no tier list would be the best choice.
#TR4Q

But in my opinion we are spending a bit too much time placing character on paper that will burn when thrown into fireplace.

Also senpai plz! Plz dot leve ush!

Edit: But if we make a tier list... well in my opinion every region should make their own list. The final tier list (official tier list) would be combination of these region tier lists. Also every region should be treated equally and not some "'Merica gets to decide the tier list because we have the most top players hurr durr". But that is just my opinion.

 

[Trifroze]

Tier list made by top players would most likely only have characters that are solo viable (basically tier list would have only 10 characters). Is it a tier list anymore?

Well that's what tier lists are, except they include every character ordered from best solo viability to worst solo viability.

Also, to an extent solo viability equals overall viability because of the counterpick rules. It doesn't matter if a character can win some matchups when, if the opponent loses to them, they can choose to hard counter them in the next match with a character who you can't hard counter in return when you inevitably lose the following match, because they're a better character and don't have hard counters.

 

[Browny]

Talking about Ike, Ryo has been practicing footstool combos and his results are looking crisp.

He was able to convert down throw into a footstool down air spike -> Falling up air -> Aerial of his choice. He whiffed the follow-up on Ross in his latest tourney but still did 34 percent, which options up to 47 if he hit the back air which is easily doable. This could make his fast fall Mus better if people start getting down footstool combos, and San has already shown that more damage is doable off low percent n-air follow-ups with a footstool loop for upwards of 60+ damage.

All this requires slight DI reads but besides that should be easily practiced in the lab for tournament play. Ike may get a little out of hand if he gets more buffs unless it's something like his IASA getting lowered on aerials or jab 1 being 1 frame faster which would only help his ground game/safety.

And yet, you all know Ike would get trashed in a tier list made by 'pros' because hes slow.

I wonder how many months it will take of DK placing high by multiple mains before these pros realise hes actually not bad.

And on that note, I hope they do make an 'official' tier list and that a patch comes out immediately after which throws out literally everything including a fat nerf to sheik, diddy kong style. Then the futility of tier discussions will be clear to many.

 

[Shaya]

How will it be futile? The game is just evolving with more than just the force of player development.

At this stage, if I was taking top 20 or so I wouldn't be surprised if DK showed up a bit more frequently.

 

[DunnoBro]

And yet, you all know Ike would get trashed in a tier list made by 'pros' because hes slow.

Do you think pros are just elitist swine with no universal understanding of the game or interest in other characters?

Dabuz considers Ike B tier and both him and angel cortez consider DK High tier... While yielding to the opinion of pros as quickly as others currently do is absurd, the idea of throwing out or refusing their input because we might disagree is equally absurd.

 

[Firefoxx]

If tier list discussions are futile then what is even the ****ing point of anyone posting anything in this thread

We dance around it all the time and hide it pretty well, but at its core this thread is made up of tier list discussions.

 

[Browny]

Do you think pros are just elitist swine with no universal understanding of the game or interest in other characters?

Dabuz considers Ike B tier and both him and angel cortez consider DK High tier... While yielding to the opinion of pros as quickly as others currently do is absurd, the idea of throwing out or refusing their input because we might disagree is equally absurd.

What makes you say that?

I just think that regional and character bias plays a gigantic part in the tier lists generated by various pros.

Ike flat out isnt popular and you can count on 1 hand the amount of people actually putting the theorycraft into practice. If people don't witness it first hand, they wont rate it highly. It was always the case in Brawl when tier lists were made by people, I don't see a reason why it wouldn't happen again. And dont even get me started on the cherry-picking of results from the japanese scene to support their opinion while dismissing results from the same tournament that dont support their opinion.

I'm not saying that anyones opinion is invalidated if they do or dont place ike/dk high, what I am saying is that I won't be surprised in the slightest if it happens. If it doesnt happen and I'm wrong, so be it I can admit that.

But after it happening in brawl non stop for 8 years, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Its OK for people to be biased. Sometimes people think its evil or that its actually possible to be unbiased. There is nothing wrong with rating characters highly if you see them perform highly in-person vs those who you don't. It's just when this same bias is repeated among many players due to general character unpopularity that it becomes a problem.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I love how people act as if the "top players" were just some homogenous group of people who all think the same way about the same things. Just because they are top level players doesn't mean they're a different type of human beings. They're ... just like everybody else. Some of them are smart and some of them are dumb ... some of them are eloquent and some of them are not. Some people are reflective and considerate and others don't give a **** about anything that isn't strictly rooted in personal experience.

So sure, you don't have to give much of a damn about the "information" somebody like Zero spreads if you don't like it but if it comes down to it I'd still take the opinions of dabuz or Larry over that of ... just about everybody else.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, just in case the update does include a balance patch:

Take your bets here! What buffs will Ike get this time? Place your bets now!

4:1 - Another Aerial Buff
3:1 - Small Buff to Tilt/s
2:1 - Minor Change to Special/s
3:2 - Jab 1 Buff
3:2 - Throw Buff
1:2 - First Balance Patch With No Ike Buffs!
1:100 - Ike Gets Nerfed!

Bonus Options!
3:2 - There will be a change nobody finds in the balance change for Ike until at least 2 weeks later!
1:3 - Smash Attack Buff/s
2:1 - Hitbox fix of some kind!

---

In all serious, if a balance patch does come along today I'll be curious to see who they consider buffing and if they've realized that they haven't really nerfed Sheik yet.

 

[warionumbah2]

So, just in case the update does include a balance patch:

Take your bets here! What buffs will Ike get this time? Place your bets now!

4:1 - Another Aerial Buff
3:1 - Small Buff to Tilt/s
2:1 - Minor Change to Special/s
3:2 - Jab 1 Buff
3:2 - Throw Buff
1:2 - First Balance Patch With No Ike Buffs!
1:100 - Ike Gets Nerfed!

Bonus Options!
3:2 - There will be a change nobody finds in the balance change for Ike until at least 2 weeks later!
1:3 - Smash Attack Buff/s
2:1 - Hitbox fix of some kind!

---

In all serious, if a balance patch does come along today I'll be curious to see who they consider buffing and if they've realized that they haven't really nerfed Sheik yet.

All of the above, save this post cuz you all know im right. Ike is clearly a **** character as well as Marth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

These "Ike needs buffs!" posts are almost as funny as "better nerf Greninja".

Almost.

 

[DunnoBro]

What makes you say that?

I just think that regional and character bias plays a gigantic part in the tier lists generated by various pros.

You can't divorce human input from bias, it's the job of the community and objective review to do that.

If you think the possibility of bias is enough to just give up on objectively review something, you'd probably go far in the games journalism industry but nowhere else.

 

[FullMoon]

All of the above, save this post cuz you all know im right. Ike is clearly a **** character as well as Marth.

"All of the above" includes "no changes" and "nerfs" so...