Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

sure. Luigi's better as a secondary though.
less effort and beats anyone who doesn't have a projectile pretty much. Hmmmmm. sounds like E.Honda to me.

 

[Deathcarter]

No one said nerf Sonic speed. Many here just rather not have to face a character that racks damage and kills then leaves and then says "ur 2 sloe". Sonic taunt OP.

I'm grateful that he no longer uses that taunt. Without a doubt the most justified nerf going into Smash 4.

 

[Minordeth]

As another poster sneakily mentioned a while back, Sonic's design absolutely makes sense in the context of the 2D Sonic games. The man hits and runs. That's his MO.

That design, coupled with Sonic - the character (post-1995), happens to be absurdly annoying.

 

[Charoite]

You guys gotta understand that Zero appeals to a much broader audience in his videos than other content providers. The average, more casual player wants to hear that their character has some "insane" combos (which in all honesty, zero probably can do pretty ridiculous strings with those characters, as good as he is) or that they might be underrated. He could elaborate further on why he thinks Luigi is top 5, but why should he? Most of his subscribers won't understand advanced concepts anyways. The guy's trying to make a living. I don't blame him.

well if you are talking about a character, then you need to research a bit deeper, or at least talk to people who nows better about them, saying is for the casual audience, is not a good excuse, because they could spread misinformation about the metagame.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Meh, just forget it. Forget everything I said. As I said before: Everyone loves to hate Sonic. Even here.

I would love Lucas to have ending lag on his grab reduced. Maybe make it equal to Zero Suit Samus ending lag. But this isn't the thread of buffs + nerfs.

What do you guys think of Zero Suit Samus as secondary? Is she a good choice to have as a secondary?

Lemme say it, I don't hate Sonic, but the fanbase are the culprits of my "hate". I find it funny that a couple jabs at a simplistic design on a character that has waning popularity means we "hate" X character. Please stop that.

 

[DunnoBro]

Luigi is probably the best secondary character in the game. Easy to reach near-master level with, and hard counters a bunch of characters. (especially those from the "hard to kill" archetype)

ZSS I don't think is too great a secondary on merit of matchup spread + usability. Sheik and her have similar MU spreads, but sheik is easier and has a better spread overall. ZSS however is good for stage coverage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Lemme say it, I don't hate Sonic, but the fanbase are the culprits of my "hate". I find it funny that a couple jabs at a simplistic design on a character that has waning popularity means we "hate" X character. Please stop that.

50 bucks this patch is taking the server down so we can play with the current Sonic because post patch we goin straight into Sonic Boom with the legs and some new stage clipping tech!

On topic, yeah I think Luigi is one of, if not the best secondary/pocket characters in this game because of exactly that. He's really simple, easy, and you'll win a lot of MUs. Hell if you play Mario and Luigi in this game you have basically nothing to worry about at all. Luigi's best attribute is his ease of use insofar as secondary status.

 

[greatbernard]

but the attack is slower to pull off after you've done it twice, right?

 

[DunnoBro]

DK might be up there too, probably one of the easier characters to vs sheik with. Not saying it's a good MU for DK, but it's definitely not awful and a sheik refusing to play absolutely optimally (campy af) will get grabbed and die. The pressure to play perfect is on sheik. DK just needs to not die and get a grab.

I mean, m2k is a great player but he's been using lots of characters and only until he begun working on DK is he placing as well as he did with pre-patch diddy. (With a week 1/2 DK while also practicing melee)

 

[Spinosaurus]

As I said before: Everyone loves to hate Sonic. Even here.

This is coming from a Sonic fan.

He is a bad design in this game,

Also M2K pretty much did great against anyone that didn't use Sheik.

 

[bc1910]

The Ding Dong is kind of... too good. On maybe two thirds of the roster, it would be broken. Fortunately DK has enough other flaws to keep him in check but it's certainly made his viability skyrocket.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK might be up there too, probably one of the easier characters to vs sheik with. Not saying it's a good MU for DK, but it's definitely not awful and a sheik refusing to play absolutely optimally (campy af) will get grabbed and die. The pressure to play perfect is on sheik. DK just needs to not die and get a grab.

I mean, m2k is a great player but he's been using lots of characters and only until he begun working on DK is he placing as well as he did with pre-patch diddy. (With a week 1/2 DK while also practicing melee)

Agreed. The matchup is in Shieks favor if played correctly. Any time I beat a Shiek with DK I always ask them: why didn't you use needles? Why are you going in?
Sheik has literally no reason to approach DK. If the shiek does, the matchup isnt being played right and it will seem like a decent matchup for DK. But it's not when the Shiek plays lame, which is optimal in the matchup.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic was the 2nd video game I ever played (after duck hunt)

I woke up everyday before kindergarten to watch the sonic adventures cartoon at 6am. I got pretty much every sonic game up until 2005 or so.

I've been playing sonic in this game since the american 3ds release (duck hunt since the japanese release)

After a year of playing this character, let me tell you he is pretty **** design

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The Ding Dong is kind of... too good. On maybe two thirds of the roster, it would be broken. Fortunately DK has enough other flaws to keep him in check but it's certainly made his viability skyrocket.

DK is such a poorly designed character now. His whole playstyle revolves around grabs now. Who woke up one day and thought "One luigi is great, but I think we need another one."
On the bright side, people can exploit DK's flaws much more easily than Luigi's. Or rather, more characters can do it.

 

[DunnoBro]

DK's WAYYY better designed than luigi. DK doesn't have super safe grab set-ups and has a way worse disadvantage state.

The top tiers are mostly "safe: the game" outside of ZSS, and MK. I want more chars like that, though a little less "dthrow: the match"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hell if you play Mario and Luigi in this game you have basically nothing to worry about at all.

This assumes that Mario has a decent matchup vs Sheik as is often claimed.

But it's not actually the case at all. Sheik has a considerable advantage against Mario [and Luigi].

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK is such a poorly designed character now. His whole playstyle revolves around grabs now. Who woke up one day and thought "One luigi is great, but I think we need another one."
On the bright side, people can exploit DK's flaws much more easily than Luigi's. Or rather, more characters can do it.

Truth, I think they wanted to always to make DK a grappler (hence the only one with a unique grab). What I find strange though is that he doesn't have a command grab. Now he has a legit grab setup that doesn't combo near ad infinitum like Luigi.

 

[DunnoBro]

This assumes that Mario has a decent matchup vs Sheik as is often claimed.

But it's not actually the case at all. Sheik has a considerable advantage against Mario [and Luigi].

Can confirm. People think it's good cause mario combos sheik hard, and has the mobility to avoid getting completely walled out like luigi... But optimal sheik doesn't leave much for mario to exploit.

It's not too bad, but definitely no better than 40:60. Luigi has it much worse.

 

[FullMoon]

It's honestly kinda hard to me to see DK as being that good of a character, though that's more because I tend to have a low opinion of heavyweights in general than anything else. I haven't really watched much of high level DK play yet.

This kind of mindset did make me lose a tournament to a Dedede and get 2nd so I probably should stop with this idea of mine that heavyweights are free wins.

That said though, how are DK's MUs against the top tiers?

 

[DunnoBro]

That said though, how are DK's MUs against the top tiers?

Kind of hard to say right now, he obviously loses neutral and gets bodied the same way he always has. His issues landing are still there, too.

But, he has the ability to power through with an unrivaled punish game. In the end though, he'll probably end up in the kind of position melee ganon is.

"Wow those combos are so broken... I ain't approachin that ****"

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ FullMoon
Right now I'm heading to work and then going to the gym. In other words a full response on the top tiers v DK. I have my opinions and I'm sure NachoOfCheese will bust out his opinions. Also, what character does it stop for top tiers in your opinion?

 

[Djent]

This assumes that Mario has a decent matchup vs Sheik as is often claimed.

But it's not actually the case at all. Sheik has a considerable advantage against Mario [and Luigi].

What is "decent?"

I think Mario probably does better than Luigi vs. Sheik, but he doesn't do as well as say, Diddy does.

 

[FullMoon]

Kind of hard to say right now, he obviously loses neutral and gets bodied the same way he always has. His issues landing are still there, too.

But, he has the ability to power through with an unrivaled punish game. In the end though, he'll probably end up in the kind of position melee ganon is.

"Wow those combos are so broken... I ain't approachin that ****"

So basically does what Ganondorf mains claims he can do, just better.

@ FullMoon
Right now I'm heading to work and then going to the gym. In other words a full response on the top tiers v DK. I have my opinions and I'm sure NachoOfCheese will bust out his opinions. Also, what character does it stop for top tiers in your opinion?

Honestly I dunno. I guess of the top 15 presented in the first post, I would stop at Diddy, though I would place Yoshi below him.

 

[LightLV]

KEK. Sonic is getting the hate because it's a trend now. Everyone loves to hate Sonic on every possible way.

...have you played a sonic game in the last decade or so?

Sega has been practically begging us to hate sonic for a very long time, so this isn't odd at all

But as someone whos loved and now vehemently hate sonic games...I really don't see anything wrong with his design here.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

...have you played a sonic game in the last decade or so?

Sega has been practically begging us to hate sonic for a very long time, so this isn't odd at all

But as someone whos loved and now vehemently hate sonic games...I really don't see anything wrong with his design here.

i hear that sonic colors has been good

 

[Spinosaurus]

Let's not go down that rabbit hole on a completely unrelated thread

 

[thehard]

I'm fine with DK's u-throw u-air. It's rage and percent-specific and doesn't overcentralize his gameplan from what I've seen, just gives him a threatening setup that he, well, kinda needs. He might round off the high tiers at this point. Second best heavy after Ike? Held back by 60:40s with and but snowballs quite well and has his new "trump card" to strike fear into them with 75% kills off the top. Will and M2K (D2K) are getting unprecedented results with him lately.

 

[Charoite]

DK, fits more with a grappler archetype, he is the only one with the cargo mecanic in his throw, and he has many attributes that fits that style, example he have a big body, he has a hard time approaching, but when he is in, he can make big damage. I am simplifiquen things a bit. And luigi is not the same as DK, because luigi can force people with fireball to get grabbed, DK, need to outplay them (like a grappler) to get the grab. and luigi weakness are very polarizing, DK weakness are more in line about what you would expect with his archetype.

 

[Routa]

Why do people keep forgetting that Wario is a heavy piece of garlic?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Why do people keep forgetting that Wario is a heavy piece of garlic?

Because he doesn't really play like a heavy. We're not talking about the actual weight values here, but rather playstyles.

 

[Wintropy]

Thing with Sonic is that, as others duly mentioned, he's just fundamentally good at hit 'n' run tactics. Yeah, he can commit to a good old-fashioned bare-knuckle beatdown, but what's the point? He can just as easily play keepaway with your stock until the clock runs out. The impetus is on you to catch him.

Other fast characters are mitigated by the fact that, ultimately, the stall tactic only goes so far. Falcon and Fox are fast on the ground, but their overall mobility is hampered by a relatively slow recovery - which, I might add, doesn't drop a projectile on startup and which does induce freefall. If you go Ganondorf or DK, good luck: Sonic has no reason to come anywhere near you except to rack up just enough damage to get a victory by time-out.

It isn't morally wrong to play Sonic this way. It's just effective, and for better or for worse, top players enter tournaments to win, even if it's incredibly dull by the standards of most spectators.

 

[Kaladin]

but the attack is slower to pull off after you've done it twice, right?

The attack is slower if it's already activated.

 

[san.]

Gonna go through all the Ike stuff real quick...

Talking about Ike, Ryo has been practicing footstool combos and his results are looking crisp.

He was able to convert down throw into a footstool down air spike -> Falling up air -> Aerial of his choice. He whiffed the follow-up on Ross in his latest tourney but still did 34 percent, which options up to 47 if he hit the back air which is easily doable. This could make his fast fall Mus better if people start getting down footstool combos, and San has already shown that more damage is doable off low percent n-air follow-ups with a footstool loop for upwards of 60+ damage.

All this requires slight DI reads but besides that should be easily practiced in the lab for tournament play. Ike may get a little out of hand if he gets more buffs unless it's something like his IASA getting lowered on aerials or jab 1 being 1 frame faster which would only help his ground game/safety.

This was a while ago. We've long since gotten this tech down. I knew about this in the fall/winter, but felt that it wasn't worth it, until I re-explored it around the time patch 1.0.8 hit. I believe Ryo is the same and learned it in parallel to when I was mastering it. Uair was a good followup after the reset in 1.0.8, but I'm not sure how it will work out with 1.10's uair. I think it's easier to just nair.

I still think Ike has some dysfunctional moves, especially with his smash attacks. I know that that's not going to change since casual players think his smash attacks are good. I'd like for Ike to be good/great, not just decent. Ike also lacks meta-defining moves like good shield cancelled attacks. If Ike's utilt was his usmash for instance, then Ike would be several places higher lol. His current set of smashes hold him back. His specials are also alright/decent, but I'd like for them to be great personally. Ike also has 2 frames higher endlag on his grabs for no reason and poor standing grab range (despite good dash/pivot grabs), though that's being a bit picky.

Are they REAL footstool combos? I haven't see a single footstool setup that isn't completely invalidated by a player simply usnig DI or jumping as soon as they recover.

At low %, Ike's dthrow combos into Usmash on some characters. I believe that ~25 frames is enough time to footstool people easily. I personally had no problems doing so in tournament. They only go straight up, Max horizontal DI (which barely goes anywhere at 0%) and slightly horizontal with no DI.

Ike can easily dair any character with around the same air speed or below. Ike has an air speed rating of 1.08. It's still easy to dair opponents with ~1.10 to 1.12 air speed but it gets difficult for values above that. For high speed opponents, Ike can still use nair or fair. Fair combos into dash attack ~20-25% and below that is a mixup at least. Nair can still lead to another grab, dtilt, or jab.

What needs to be tested for gimmicks is nair->footstool, since it's relatively new as of patch 1.0.8. Ike was able to do it beforehand, but the 2 less frames of landing lag possibly makes it practical. I was able to get it in tournaments a few times, but I'm not sure how defining it is. I think it can be really good if mastered since Ike can follow after any DI of nair.

 

[bc1910]

I was just watching this E3 demo vid of Sheik's moveset again...

Grenades used to have an insane suction effect and aerial needles had no landing lag like in Melee.

Sheik's actually substantially worse than she was at this point in the game's life, assuming she also had all the other stuff that's been nerfed since release like a more powerful Uair and Bair. I know the E3 demo was never public but it's still interesting to see how strong she was. And the fact that she's much weaker now, despite still being the best characer, might be part of the reason for the devs' foot dragging on meaningful nerfs. They might feel like they've already nerfed her a lot, which they kind of have.

 

[Charoite]

I think when people says a character plays like a heavyweight, is more about the typical image of a grappler in traditional fighting games. You dont see people saying wario, snake, rob or bowser Jr. Despite them being heavyweight, people are refering to a style or archetype and not the weight.

 

[Ffamran]

I was just watching this E3 demo vid of Sheik's moveset again...

Grenades used to have an insane suction effect and aerial needles had no landing lag like in Melee.

Sheik's actually substantially worse than she was at this point in the game's life, assuming she also had all the other stuff that's been nerfed since release like a more powerful Uair and Bair. I know the E3 demo was never public but it's still interesting to see how strong she was. And the fact that she's much weaker now, despite still being the best characer, might be part of the reason for the devs' foot dragging on meaningful nerfs. They might feel like they've already nerfed her a lot, which they kind of have.

There's this too.

Ok guys, things are coming along with the video. Over the coming weekend is the last chance to contribute and get your frustration in the video.

Here's a snippet of some of the video editing I've done:

On the top you can see the nintendo direct samus missile, on the bottom the current 1.10 missile. I've arranged the video such that they match at the only frame that doesn't seem to have had cosmetic re-touching done to it, at 4.00 seconds, you can see Samus in a feet close together holding arm cannon stance. I think it's the best way to give side-by-side comparison since I can't quite replicate the walking animation.
Frame counting, as best as I can tell Samus used to have much faster startup, ~10 frames and better cooldown at ~5 frames. Which would mean ~45 total frames instead of 57.Similar to link's hero's bow.
It doesn't completely resolve the issues with homing missile of course, but it definitely once was a useful move, somewhere between the nintendo direct and production version is basically where Samus' neutral game died.
Please don't advertise this video widely yet to the rest of smashboards, wait for the full version because there's more information I've dug up.

I've found clips showing z-air doing base 2 and 5 damage at mid range.
So right now we have missile massive nerf, d-tilt nerf, n-air nerf, z-air nerf all before we ever got the game in hand.

If Samus's Missile total frames was 45, it would make Falco's Blaster even worse. Thank you, developers, for making Samus's Missile worse, but still better than Falco's Blaster. Oh, and this image of Falco before the game was released? which looks exactly like Falco's Melee and Brawl Bair. Which with his current Bair's properties of really strong knockback, would be ridiculous with this kind of hitbox. Also, Luigi was able to wall jump, but they removed that for some reason... Beta elements are beta elements. Unfortunately for Smash 4's case, trailers and previous patch versions will always tell us the truth unlike things like nobody really knew what Kameo would look like as a Gamecube game. Anyway, I digress and this is off-topic.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Didn't Kirby also have a kill throw in the E3 demo? Pretty sure nerfs were universal.

 

[bc1910]

They weren't exactly universal, a few characters got them but Sheik got it the worst, with two very powerful things getting taken away.

Kirby's Uthrow was nerfed to kill later and ZSS's side B was nerfed to basically not kill at all.

 

[wedl!!]

i don't think you know how any of these characters work. or the game, for that matter.

 

[RayNoire]

I think when people says a character plays like a heavyweight, is more about the typical image of a grappler in traditional fighting games. You dont see people saying wario, snake, rob or bowser Jr. Despite them being heavyweight, people are refering to a style or archetype and not the weight.

I think the "heavy" label is better associated with character/hurtbox size than weight.

That's why I call Mewtwo a heavy without the heavy.