Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nabbitnator]

i can't decide whch projectile is worse; homing missiles, final cutter, lucas pkt1, or koopa cannon.

Koopa cannon can get those snipes off stage for some unlikely kills.

 

[meleebrawler]

Koopa cannon can get those snipes off stage for some unlikely kills.

As does Lucas's PK Thunder in addition to causing stage spikes.

 

[Shaya]

I randomed bowser jr last night and he's quite close to my worst character (that I get in random: otherwise it's probably ness).
I did this beautiful forward air off stage that forced a jump and then reverse wave bounced a cannonball, which from where I was (high-ish off stage), pushed me into the ground on stage while charging. My opponent is just about to fall into stage height, I let it rip. IT SHOOTS FAST.
IT HITS.
THEY DIE.

YAY FOR REVERSE WAVE BOUNCING.

I'm so bad/scared of trying to make instructional videos, but I really want to do some sort of compilation of 'niche' usages/ideas and stuff for this. I guess a lot of it is generic between characters in the context of for glory (flat stage, lag, something they definitely have never seen before on anyone) in and around the ledge of the stage, but the tech chasing usages of it when they happen bring tears of joy to my eyes. Characters like Sheik/ZSS who can use it in neutral to some extent are a whole different ball game.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco Blaster is terribly mediocre but it's not the worst projectile by a long shot.

Well, Ally makes them look like the best thing since sliced bread. Now, imagine this with lower end lag.

i can't decide whch projectile is worse; homing missiles, final cutter, lucas pkt1, or koopa cannon.

Can't Lucas's PKT1 gimp/kill people by pushing them away from the stage?

 

[LancerStaff]

If you guys are going to call Final Cutter a projectile then you should include DDD jump and Yoshi Bomb lol.

Falco's Lasers are probably the most dysfunctional move in the game. You can kinda gimp with them and... Uh, catch them off guard with it after Dthrow I guess.

Like, Samus's work on hit, and PKT1 is just for going into PKT2. Almost every projectile can gimp. Falco's just doesn't do anything else.

 

[M15t3R E]

Forgive me if this has been asked more times than the number of stars in the sky, but why did Sakurai and his team decide to grace the space animals by allowing them to act after phantasm but gave Ike two middle fingers way up by continuing to force the helpless state after his similar side-B?

 

[Quickhero]

Forgive me if this has been asked more times than the number of stars in the sky, but why did Sakurai and his team decide to grace the space animals by allowing them to act after phantasm but gave Ike two middle fingers way up by continuing to force the helpless state after his similar side-B?

Because Falco prefers the air and Ike doesn't, it's that simple.

I'm sure ZSS prefers the air too, because for some reason she has to keep her 18 million ways to recover while characters like Ike are just out of luck.

 

[Pyr]

Can't say. Might be a trade off for giving Ike's sword a jet engine for his horizontal recovery. Or could of been to balance him in some way. Besides the "goes horizontal in a straight line" attribute, it's not much like the furry's side-bs at all.

 

[Radical Larry]

i can't decide whch projectile is worse; homing missiles, final cutter, lucas pkt1, or koopa cannon.

Homing Missiles - 5% damage and short ranged missiles that are great for setting up bombardment traps and walls to allow for the more powerful missiles to come out. They deal very low knockback but their damage, for the most part, remains the same.

Final Cutter - Very short range yet comes out fast and catches a dashing opponent off guard, and can't be reflected back once it starts to end. It, however, is beaten by precise timing and perfect shielding, allowing for an impromptu hit on Kirby.

PK Thunder / Rolling PK Thunder - Since this is the same attack, I will state that this deals some rather interesting hits with multiple strikes on the opponent and ability to stage spike. It does allow for Lucas to recover better than Ness against physical opponents since it goes right through (if Ness uses it, it's also great utilization for such a thing).

Koopa Cannon - I've honestly not seen much use for it. However, it has a good set up from Mechakoopa and is good for shield poking alongside Mechakoopa. It's best to use for off-stage kills or pressuring the opponent with projectiles.

But if you want projectiles that are technically worse than these, think of the following projectile-class moves:
PK Flash - You have a better chance to land a Warlock Punch than this move, despite its power. It's extremely slow.
Din's Fire - Great for off-stage kills and gimps, but predictable on stage due to opponent's being able to move away from it.
Power Bow - You have ample time to react to this custom special of Link's, and despite its power, it's slower than PK Flash.

Forgive me if this has been asked more times than the number of stars in the sky, but why did Sakurai and his team decide to grace the space animals by allowing them to act after phantasm but gave Ike two middle fingers way up by continuing to force the helpless state after his similar side-B?

Here is an explanation; the spacies might be able to act out of Side B because of their falling speed and the lag that comes out afterward (Fox's end lag is bad for his Side B in air), and they don't have as much momentum or air speed as Ike does.

Whereas Ike, on the other hand, has some absurd distance with Side B fully charged. You can often times recover because it increases his aerial mobility when recovery, granted you have the air elevation to do such a thing. However, this proves to be Ike's downfall too, since if fully charged and too high, Ike will likely go over the stage and get KO'd in the process due to his momentum being too much to go back at this point.

In short, Ike's Side B is capable of letting him recover a very large distance of horizontal recovery, but the Spacies don't have Side Bs that allow for such a momentum shift, and have end lag and falling speed in the end of their moves (again, Fox's end lag is atrocious), plus, Fox and Falco's Side B attacks aren't all that powerful, whereas Ike's is powerful.

But it's negligible to use these if Mario or Doctor Mario just use cape, so...

 

[Blobface]

Random grievance: Bouncing Fish has invincibility frames, intangibility on the legs throughout the move, and above all else, a hitbox that rivals Kirby's 64 U-tilt in how preposterous it is. Said hitbox can be triggered at almost any point during the move.

But why tho.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco's Laser has some nice uses that make it barely usable. FHDL covers a good amount of vertical space on stages like battlefeild with little to no landing lag. Ledge hop laser might be useful too as a ledge get up option. Lasers are pretty decent for edgeguarding and getting chip damage after a Nair as well.

 

[Ghostbone]

Random grievance: Bouncing Fish has invincibility frames, intangibility on the legs throughout the move, and above all else, a hitbox that rivals Kirby's 64 U-tilt in how preposterous it is. Said hitbox can be triggered at almost any point during the move.

But why tho.

Because she can't switch to the super broken alternative that is zelda, have to pack all those options into one move.

 

[M15t3R E]

Thing is, while Ike's Quickdraw can be used to recover quickly from absurd distances, he lacks any sort of freedom and diversity in utilizing it. Ike either recovers to the edge, in which case the opponent can catch him, or he tries to recover smoothly onto the stage, preferably a platform. Either way, to recover decent distances requires a charge time that gives the opponent ample time to process the fact that Ike is recovering horizontally, and more often than not, where Ike will end up too. This is why it'd be nice for him to be able to recover horizontally below the stage and then use Aether to get up to the edge. I do recover this way similarly with Pikachu sometimes; I'll use skull bash and purposely miss the edge going below it and Quick Attack the rest of the way back. It's safer than just skull bashing to the edge.

 

[thehard]

Hm, watching that Ally clip reminded me of the Smash 4-specific ledge mechanic where you have less i-frames on the ledge at high percent than at low percent. However, the more airtime you use up prior to grabbing the ledge extends your i-frames. BUT, receiving knockback resets that airtime bonus. The point is, Falco's laser seems like a pretty reliable and safe way of achieving that condition vs an offstage opponent...

 

[Vipermoon]

Sheik can keep her invincibility and partial invincibility on Bouncing Fish. But to have hitboxes THAT HUGE (you barely have to aim the thing) and hitbox duration THAT LONG (8 frames) is absurd.

 

[Asdioh]

Random grievance: Bouncing Fish has invincibility frames, intangibility on the legs throughout the move, and above all else, a hitbox that rivals Kirby's 64 U-tilt in how preposterous it is. Said hitbox can be triggered at almost any point during the move.

But why tho.

Wait, it has invincibility frames? I mean, I know it has disjoints, and I know the arcing hitbox is dumb (which is the only reason fthrow->BF works so often) but what the heck.


Also, there are a ton of moves that cause freefall that have zero reason to, so singling out Quickdraw is kind of pointless. Din's Fire, Gravity Grenade, Giant Punch, etc. etc. etc.
I doubt they'll ever change those, too :/

If you guys are going to call Final Cutter a projectile then you should include DDD jump and Yoshi Bomb lol.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but Kirby's UpB has always been known as "a projectile," moreso than the things you mentioned. I mean, it's just a really bad move in general, but its distance was cut from Melee to Brawl, and then from Brawl to 4, so it's still a projectile, but a significantly smaller one, yet significantly farther than those two. Can Villager Pocket the stars from those moves? He can pocket FC!
If the startup and endlag of FC get reduced then I'll never complain about the projectile again, because Kirby will finally have a usable disjointed move.

 

[Teshie U]

Its kind of silly that moves boosting mobility that much also pretty much guarantee you get away with it even when read.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but Kirby's UpB has always been known as "a projectile," moreso than the things you mentioned. I mean, it's just a really bad move in general, but its distance was cut from Melee to Brawl, and then from Brawl to 4, so it's still a projectile, but a significantly smaller one, yet significantly farther than those two. Can Villager Pocket the stars from those moves? He can pocket FC!
If the startup and endlag of FC get reduced then I'll never complain about the projectile again, because Kirby will finally have a usable disjointed move.

Like the other moves, the projectile on Final Cutter really only exists for covering the landing.

Villager can pocket everything that can be reflected, so yes.

Actually no because Pit's Fspecial reflects Falco's Dspecial for uncomprehendable reasons but whatever.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't really like the idea of nerfing any character, in honesty. Just improve the bad characters until things are balanced.

Stop and think for a moment about what sort of buffs you'd need to give Ganondorf in order to go even with, say, Sheik. Now consider that same buffed Ganondorf against literally anyone else.

Not denying that some of the low tiers need buffs (goodness knows they do), but nerfs have their place too.

 

[Ghostbone]

Stop and think for a moment about what sort of buffs you'd need to give Ganondorf in order to go even with, say, Sheik. Now consider that same buffed Ganondorf against literally anyone else.

Not denying that some of the low tiers need buffs (goodness knows they do), but nerfs have their place too.

Any viable Sheik is always going to be a bad matchup for Ganon, Ganon can do well vs other top tiers and still lose to Sheik and be balanced. Sheik isn't automatically overpowered just because Ganon would have to be broken to beat her.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Any viable Sheik is always going to be a bad matchup for Ganon, Ganon can do well vs other top tiers and still lose to Sheik and be balanced. Sheik isn't automatically overpowered just because Ganon would have to be broken to beat her.

I was not arguing that Sheik was overpowered, I was using an extreme example of how nerfs have their place in balance patches.

If you want, replace Sheik with ZSS or Rosalina or some other high tier.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik has hard countered Ganondorf in 3 games already, nothing new. It's a beautiful thing.
SWEET SWEET IRONY.

I guess the idea being Sheik is meant to be able to evade and chip damage ganondorf for 7+ years at a time, and if Sheik ****s up and gets trapped it may end up bad for her (stock loss), but some bull **** plot armor will come through for her at the end of the day still (stage collapsing at ganon's feet and him SDing).

Making that workable for Ganondorf though has been brought up semi-frequently, at least since Brawl. If insta-jabs and forward airs that kill at 40-50% weren't good enough though....

 

[Vipermoon]

So looks like there wasn't a patch after all.

 

[Mario766]

So looks like they wasn't a patch after all.

I thought the maint was tomorrow.

 

[DanGR]

Wasn't Dabuz also the same top player who believes Jiggs is pretty bad in this game? Seems kinda weird to be saying coming from him.

It's not necessarily the case that "bad" characters have only terrible matchups with the high/top tiers. It's more prevalent against characters like Rosalina, Villager, and Luigi, whose pros and cons are so extreme in comparison to other high/top tier characters. On the other hand, more "balanced" high/top tiers characters tend to have more consistently good matchup spreads instead of absolutely destroying most low tiers and going evenish with others.

 

[DunnoBro]

Jigglypuff is bad against anyone with decent kill confirms. She does good against top tiers that are top due to their neutral like Rosaluma, Fox, allegedly even sheik. But put her against luigi, diddy, or ness and you see why she isn't solo viable.

 

[Dre89]

I randomed bowser jr last night and he's quite close to my worst character (that I get in random: otherwise it's probably ness).
I did this beautiful forward air off stage that forced a jump and then reverse wave bounced a cannonball, which from where I was (high-ish off stage), pushed me into the ground on stage while charging. My opponent is just about to fall into stage height, I let it rip. IT SHOOTS FAST.
IT HITS.
THEY DIE.

YAY FOR REVERSE WAVE BOUNCING.

I'm so bad/scared of trying to make instructional videos, but I really want to do some sort of compilation of 'niche' usages/ideas and stuff for this. I guess a lot of it is generic between characters in the context of for glory (flat stage, lag, something they definitely have never seen before on anyone) in and around the ledge of the stage, but the tech chasing usages of it when they happen bring tears of joy to my eyes. Characters like Sheik/ZSS who can use it in neutral to some extent are a whole different ball game.

The main use I've found for cannon is punishing landings. Like you've said, if you're dropping to ground with them from a distance you can charge it and hope they panic air dodge early.

 

[Gawain]

Jigglypuff is bad against anyone with decent kill confirms. She does good against top tiers that are top due to their neutral like Rosaluma, Fox, allegedly even sheik. But put her against luigi, diddy, or ness and you see why she isn't solo viable.

You sure on Sheik? Jiggs is light so Sheik (and everyone) can follow up from their throws faster. I would assume this makes her even more vulnerable to Sheiks dthrow setups.

 

[Ffamran]

Hm, watching that Ally clip reminded me of the Smash 4-specific ledge mechanic where you have less i-frames on the ledge at high percent than at low percent. However, the more airtime you use up prior to grabbing the ledge extends your i-frames. BUT, receiving knockback resets that airtime bonus. The point is, Falco's laser seems like a pretty reliable and safe way of achieving that condition vs an offstage opponent...

There's also another thing Falco's Blaster can do: abuse hit stun and ledge grab availability. (I believe) It's the only move in the entire game by default that can do this. Why? Because it doesn't do enough knockback, but it does enough hit stun to cause someone to stutter. Sheik can't do this with her Needles, I believe Mega Man can't do this with his lemons or it's just not flexible enough because of the shorter range, and I'm pretty sure Mario and Luigi can't do this either. Most projectiles when they hit you cause you to lift off the ground e.g. ZSS's Paralyzer which happens after the stun effect or Bowser and Charizard's Flame Breath and Flamethrower. Because of that, low knockback projectiles have an advantage on Falco's Blaster on the ground since you're lifted up into the air and you have to land. In the air, it's case by case as Sheik's Needles can produce enough lift to lead into a Bouncing Fish while Mario's Fireball causing lift won't let him gimp you since you get some vertical lift to get back onto the stage. Because it only stutters you and causes hit stun without creating any lift or knockback, Falco's Blaster is the most reliable at abusing the fact you cannot grab the ledge after 30 frames? if you received hit stun. You get hit, you get hit stun, you stutter for a bit, and then you drift down. No knockback that can save you or even let get setup by Falco.

Savvy players won't be gimped by this, but players unaware of that will. There's also something that I can't confirm: buffered moves out of hit stun. It might be a panic thing - mashing a button and end up having it register after leaving hit stun -, but there are times where this happens and you see a character just use their recovery at an unfortunate time. So, Fox might be going for a Fox Illusion to the ledge, but he ends up getting clipped and uses Fox Illusion while he's under the stage.

When it comes to edgeguarding and off-stage followups that Falco doesn't really want to do for whatever reason, his Blaster is good for that, but it's on-stage where it's lacking. Also, with customs allowed, I think only Fox gets this ability with Impact Blaster, but the slightly shorter range and inability to fire continuously means Fox has to be precise and he won't be able to short hop double laser like Ally did in that set.

Actually no because Pit's Fspecial reflects Falco's Dspecial for uncomprehendable reasons but whatever.

The Pits' Side Specials, Lucas and Ness's Side Smashes, Zelda's Nayru's Love?, and probably the Pits' Guardian Orbitars and Palutena's Reflect Barrier all reflect Falco's Reflector. It's treated as a projectile for some reason - I don't know if Brawl Falco's Reflector was like this -, but it's not treated as a projectile when it gets reflected. So, you can't reflect his Reflector to damage him like Mewtwo's Disable. It's more like Zelda's Din's Fire where if you reflect it, then it just gets negated. For Din's Fire, it's not really useful since it doesn't really do anything and you have to time it with the explosion which doesn't really have a clear indication other than it's on you, now try to reflect it. You're better off running away, hitting Zelda if you can get to her, or shielding. For Falco, it's useful against the Pits. Why? End lag abuse. Falco can cause the Pits to enter the deflect animation, recover, and punish them. At pointblank, they're going to deflect and I think the deflect counts as an attack which hurts Falco, so yeah...

 

[DanGR]

Jigglypuff is bad against anyone with decent kill confirms. She does good against top tiers that are top due to their neutral like Rosaluma, Fox, allegedly even sheik. But put her against luigi, diddy, or ness and you see why she isn't solo viable.

I don't know if I'd consider Jigglypuff good-ish against Rosalina or not, but Rosalina's lack of kill confirms are definitely a huge factor. Have you or anyone else in this thread seen the matchup played out at a high level? I have a bit of local experience against @TheReflexWonder but he knew the matchup much better than I did last time we played (and is just better than me), which was a while ago.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

The deflected reflector hasn't hurt me a single time. I think It is because the reflector doesn't have a hitbox when coming back like link's boomerang, meaning Falco doesn't get hurt.

 

[Locke 06]

Sheik can't do this with her Needles, I believe Mega Man can't do this with his lemons or it's just not flexible enough because of the shorter range

Because it only stutters you and causes hit stun without creating any lift or knockback, Falco's Blaster is the most reliable at abusing the fact you cannot grab the ledge after 30 frames? if you received hit stun. You get hit, you get hit stun, you stutter for a bit, and then you drift down.

Snip

Pellets act in a similar manner as does leaf shield. Commonly referred to in Seattle as "stupid stun" because you're no longer in hitstun and say hi to the ledge on your way past it. According to esam in one of his tier list videos, it is 50 frames. I haven't done any research, but it's a thing.

 

[wedl!!]

i got told by a jiggly main that if jiggly perfect shields a fair she gets a free rest??? like wtf

 

[DunnoBro]

You sure on Sheik? Jiggs is light so Sheik (and everyone) can follow up from their throws faster. I would assume this makes her even more vulnerable to Sheiks dthrow setups.

No, which is why I said allegedly. But jigs air mobility and floatiness make it hard for sheik to 50/50 her. There's only a very small window the 50/50s work, jigs is hard to edgeguard, and jigs can rest an unsafe fair (and not even get punished too hard for screwing it up)

Crouch/jumps negate needles and fair a good bit too.

IIRC I also saw ZeRo go diddy vs the jigglypuff that knocked out snow and feeltension. He might not just be comfortable with the MU, but that's something to consider too.

I don't know if I'd consider Jigglypuff good-ish against Rosalina or not, but Rosalina's lack of kill confirms are definitely a huge factor. Have you or anyone else in this thread seen the matchup played out at a high level? I have a bit of local experience against @TheReflexWonder but he knew the matchup much better than I did last time we played, which was a while ago.

I never have, just chat with Serynder about jigs at times. IMO he's a little too optimistic about the character's viability but input is input.

 

[Ffamran]

The deflected reflector hasn't hurt me a single time. I think It is because the reflector doesn't have a hitbox when coming back like link's boomerang, meaning Falco doesn't get hurt.

Well, only Link's Gale Boomerang since his Boomerang customs and Toon Link's Boomerangs hurt them if they get reflected back. Reflector only has a hitbox when sent out, but it has reflect windows when it's sent out and returning. This is the same for Reflector Void, but not Accele-Reflector which is another con to a crappy custom. The only issue is why the hell is it considered a projectile. It's more like a yo-yo or kursarigama which okay, if you were able to reflect that back, it would hurt like hell, but considering it's a piece of technology that Falco can probably deactivate whenever, reflecting it would mean Falco just has to catch it or get a piece of metal slapped back to his face. The fact it's treated as a projectile and that Falco kicking it isn't counted as a hitbox is one of the many mysteries to Falco along with his Fair, Blaster having sideways recoil, and why - they never gave us a reason - Falco Phantasm only has half a hitbox.

Pellets act in a similar manner as does leaf shield. Commonly referred to in Seattle as "stupid stun" because you're no longer in hitstun and say hi to the ledge on your way past it. According to esam in one of his tier list videos, it is 50 frames. I haven't done any research, but it's a thing.

Isn't it the last hit of lemons that do knockback? Or am implanting Bowser in all my memories of Mega Man fights? I know hitting with Mega Man's arm cannon does more knockback. Also, Leaf Shield causes knockback when sent out, but only the light knockback if it's hitting people while around Mega Man, right?

 

[Blobface]

It's true that Sheik will pretty much always crap on Ganon as long as their basic designs remain intact. But as of right now it's considerably more in Sheiks favor than it really has to be, and it's overall a really stupid matchup for both sides (Sheik can outplay Ganon the whole time and still lose, Ganon needs to literally guess to win).

I don't feel like thinking through specific changes right now, but if Sheik had her general safety and approach-forcing nerfed in exchange for more kill power, this matchup (and a lot of others) would be a lot less dumb, and I personally would consider Ganon a viable character.

 

[Locke 06]

Isn't it the last hit of lemons that do knockback? Or am implanting Bowser in all my memories of Mega Man fights? I know hitting with Mega Man's arm cannon does more knockback. Also, Leaf Shield causes knockback when sent out, but only the light knockback if it's hitting people while around Mega Man, right?

All pellets are the same. Standing and aerial have arm cannon hitboxes with the aerial one being significantly stronger.

Pellets have 3 knockbacks depending on how long they've been out (all weak enough for you to go nowhere) that get successively weaker.

You are correct with leaf shield.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd like to see vanish made a worse recovery and more vulnerable in exchange for making it stronger. Similarly with bouncing fish, but more endlag (it shouldn't punish the opponent for guessing right :/ It's essentially just a horizontal jump with a hitbox as it is) and same general knockback, but a more downward angle to continue/start edgeguards.

The main thing about sheik is that no character that contends with her onstage can contend with her off except pikachu. You take away her one-sided edgeguard game and you take away a lot.

I don't really mind her aerials, though fair's hitbox might need a slight nerf. She'll probably just needle camp more if you do that though. Do we want another sonic?

 

[Ffamran]

I'd like to see vanish made a worse recovery and more vulnerable in exchange for making it stronger. Similarly with bouncing fish, but more endlag (it shouldn't punish the opponent for guessing right :/ It's essentially just a horizontal jump with a hitbox as it is) and same general knockback, but a more downward angle to continue/start edgeguards.

It's kind of funny how Sheik's Vanish is pretty much the same since Melee, but it has kill power now... It's the whole copy and paste shtick that works for some and doesn't work for other characters - please patch in a poorly animated version of the C. Viper's Burst Time somersault kicks part for Falco to replace his Fire Bird. With Bouncing Fish, Sheik's recovery is not only safe, but usually uncontested since you can get punished hard. I don't know how they could refine it since Vanish kills pretty well. Removing the intangibility frames is one way, but it would make Sheik really vulnerable... Then again, you can clank with Zelda when she uses Farore's Wind; Farore's Wind first hits on frame 7 and she's only intangible during frames 22-39 - I'm going to assume that's her "travel intangibility". Sheik's Vanish first hits on frame 36 and she's intangible from frames 19-53 which starts before the first hit and ends before the second hit. What they could do because of Sheik's Vanish animation, especially the aerial animation, is make it so she's intangible from frames 19-35 meaning you can clank or hit her before Vanish begins and then have it so she's intangible say, frames 44-53 for her travel intangibility. Maybe something like Ryu's Focus Attack? So, hitting Sheik once is like hitting her "phantom", but hitting her again means you're hitting her. Also, the removal of the windbox or reduction of its hitbox would be nice since it's annoying when you try to run up and punish only to get halted or pushed back.

As for Bouncing Fish, I don't know. Hitbox changes might be needed, but I don't really pay attention to how it hits - I should. I remember someone saying it can hit from her hips which... Okay, that just doesn't make sense. Her lower thighs should be the cut off of the hitbox from how close it is to her body and how far should be limited to her feet.

I don't really mind her aerials, though fair's hitbox might need a slight nerf. She'll probably just needle camp more if you do that though. Do we want another sonic?

I'm wondering what @ Vipermoon 's - I think it was Vipermoon64 - idea of giving Sheik her Melee Fair would be like. Here's the thing, with low damage, low knockback, fast moves like Mario's Utilt, you can chain them much more easily than you can chain something like Fox's Bair. The difference is that they have to do damage per second quickly which makes sense. It would be really stupid if Mario could only get 1 Utilt that does 5.5% on anyone at any percent. The issue with Sheik's Fair is that her damage per second with Fair can range from 5% to maybe even 30% just with Fair chains alone. Its auto-cancel window, low end lag, and low landing lag don't help. Now, what if she did 13% and more knockback? Okay, you gave her a kill move which is kind of an issue with giving her Melee Fair which does 13%, so let's give her Brawl Fair back which does 9%, but the main point is that she can't really chain Fairs as easily now. Sure, she can still get 30% with just Fair, but it's now more spread out. I mean, if Ike was able to hit his Fair like Sheik, it would be ridiculous. Sheik can get 2 Fairs easily for about 10%, but if Ike could do that in a short span of time, that would be 24%. Lord have mercy on your soul if Ganondorf was able to Fair people like that; 2 of his Fairs can do about 36%. Also, Melee Sheik's Fair had 16 frames of landing lag which would be a nice way to punish poorly landed Fairs.

 

[Teshie U]

All heavies would do much better with just 1 quick/armored move. A quick jab for Ganon wouldn't make him absurd vs anyone, but it would definitely force sheik/mario to stop mashing buttons on him the entire game.

The unfortunate loss in customs was I think every heavy getting an armored move.



Sheik fair needs to hit at a lower angle imo instead of popping up. Force tech chases on stage instead of automatic full stage control and setups into bouncing fish and more aerials. Even allowing people to tech it on the ground would make it interesting if the landing lag stayed the same.