Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

I would've thought that, over time, the Roy hype would die down and people will now realize that Marth may/may not still be the better character. I'm fine if Roy is placed slightly higher than Marth. But Roy being higher than Ike is unacceptable imo.

Once people realize that crouching is still stupidly good against Roy, I don't think anyone will call him a good character.

Also I believe his matchups against the FE cast (minus Robin) are in fact unwinnable competitively.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can someone link me to vods of one of these spanish tournaments? I'd really like to see more high level dedede play, despite the fact you literally just said he probably isn't viable.

Spain just had a major tournament just last weekend: LUCKY!

www.twitch.tv/SmashBrosSpain

Should have the vods. I believe there is a link to their Youtube as well though I don't know if they're uploaded yet

 

[Dexmaster]

Spain just had a major tournament just last weekend: LUCKY!

www.twitch.tv/SmashBrosSpain

Should have the vods. I believe there is a link to their Youtube as well though I don't know if they're uploaded yet

Thanks, man! High school spanish don't fail me now...

 

[Emblem Lord]

I hate the idea of just slapping on combo throws on a less-than-viable character as an attempt to buff them, but I think Marth would genuinely improve if dthrow could actually have decent follow-ups.

If you want Marth to have dthrow combos then you want Marth to **** on everyone in the game.

Cut it out.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you want Marth to have dthrow combos then you want Marth to **** on everyone in the game.

Cut it out.

I somehow doubt a little Dthrow > Dolphin Slash would break anything... Especially when we have similar characters like Pit and Roy doing them.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth would be fine if Fthrow and Dthrow had a little less lag and knockback. But not kill combos. They can't combo in Bair or Uair to the point that it kills or comes close.

 

[thehard]

I can never really tell how facetious (or just overly dramatic) our resident Marcina mains are being, but I love their posts anyway.

They don't need d-throw combos though, I agree. Not warranted from a balance or design perspective. Their throws are there to put you in a bad position and capitalize off reads. True elegance... not savagery like the redhead

 

[LancerStaff]

Smash Bros. balancing I don't think I'll ever understand...

Yeah, I get the whole "Marth's throws do no damage but lead to reads and standing grab range is godly" thing, but then we have Pit with a great dash grab (and tons of other dash options helping it) who can combo Dthrow into Uair forever, KO decently with Fthrow, and just brute-force some damage with Uthrow if Dthrow isn't working and then get reads like Marth does.

Not that I'm complaining.

 

[Nobie]

Smash Bros. balancing I don't think I'll ever understand...

Yeah, I get the whole "Marth's throws do no damage but lead to reads and standing grab range is godly" thing, but then we have Pit with a great dash grab (and tons of other dash options helping it) who can combo Dthrow into Uair forever, KO decently with Fthrow, and just brute-force some damage with Uthrow if Dthrow isn't working and then get reads like Marth does.

Not that I'm complaining.

Pit's kill power is nothing compared to Marth's.

Pit basically kills pretty okay with some Rage and some decent moves.

Marth constantly presents the threat of the monster tipper.

 

[Zelder]

The ladies call me Monster Tipper.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I love how everybody thinks they know how to balance the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I love how everybody thinks they know how to balance the game.

I don't. I just know how to NOT **** the game up.

 

[Pazzo.]

Marth underrated again?

Big surprise.

Such a shame people don't see and as more viable. Sure, doesn't have grab combos, but he has the infamous Falchion tip hitbox. One. Good. F Smash.

is slow. Criminally slow. But my word, KILL power! His Up-Air, which can be lead into following a D-throw, is like a Smash attack in the air. Not to mention spacing tools, a recovery that spikes, and a command grab.

 

[LightLV]

People said the C-tier shouldn't exist?

lol character bias. I bet most people who believes this are below-average low-tier mains who thinks they're hot **** because they managed to beat their brother's Sheik.

Welcome to the smash community omg

"lol shiek is easy to beat lol see look at this match i recorded where i spiked a bad one"

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's kill power is nothing compared to Marth's.

Pit basically kills pretty okay with some Rage and some decent moves.

Marth constantly presents the threat of the monster tipper.

I'm not saying to give Marth something like Pit's Dthrow... But the whole risk-reward is out of whack in Marth's throws, especially when compared to better characters. There's definitely worse characters that need fixing too, but given the opportunity, something involving throws would probably be the first thing somebody sensible would buff.

 

[LightLV]

Marth underrated again?

Big surprise.

Such a shame people don't see and as more viable. Sure, doesn't have grab combos, but he has the infamous Falchion tip hitbox. One. Good. F Smash.

is slow. Criminally slow. But my word, KILL power! His Up-Air, which can be lead into following a D-throw, is like a Smash attack in the air. Not to mention spacing tools, a recovery that spikes, and a command grab.

Replace "that one tipper" with "that one command grab" and you just described the woes of every low-tier grappler in every fighting game ever.

The "opportune moment" is almost always either super broken or super low-tier. Almost overwhelmingly so the latter.

I always say this, and i say it now again. Marth's tipper is ridiculously powerful in this game...and he would easily be top-tier if it were reliable in any significant way. But it isn't. They might as well just call it a critical hit if pros can't reliably force opponents into a position where it's going to land. And there are no REAL combos in this game that give Marth full control over when to land them, like in Melee.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I have a question for Charizard mains, is Jab Jab Up B a true combo?

 

[LightLV]

Marth would be fine if Fthrow and Dthrow had a little less lag and knockback. But not kill combos. They can't combo in Bair or Uair to the point that it kills or comes close.

How about we just let his upthrow kill about 30% earlier, 150% sounds fair...

...right? right???

 

[Emblem Lord]

Replace "that one tipper" with "that one command grab" and you just described the woes of every low-tier grappler in every fighting game ever.

The "opportune moment" is almost always either super broken or super low-tier. Almost overwhelmingly so the latter.

I always say this, and i say it now again. Marth's tipper is ridiculously powerful in this game...and he would easily be top-tier if it were reliable in any significant way. But it isn't. They might as well just call it a critical hit if pros can't reliably force opponents into a position where it's going to land. And there are no REAL combos in this game that give Marth full control over when to land them, like in Melee.

You do know that Marth has jab and Uair as true confirms into tipper right?

Oh you didnt?

Well...****

 

[Spinosaurus]

I have a question for Charizard mains, is Jab Jab Up B a true combo?

It's not and it's very weight and size dependent. Heavies are a lot easier to do it on but light characters can easily escape it.

 

[Tainic]

I seriously do believe that what Marth needs the most atm are visual fixes a-la-Meta Knight, that way people will stop underrating him.

Other than that I'd give him a tiny frame buff but other than that he's ok, I can see him being a character who can hold his ground against a good enough amount of top tiers as soon as the big-ish commitment of using nair/fair in neutral is gone.

 

[RayNoire]

Maybe because YOUR crusade is scaring away prospective Mewtwo mains in favour of holding out for buffs that may or may not ever happen.

Metagame advancement > patch prayers any day. Most people will NOT just drop whatever they were doing before just because Mewtwo managed to get big buffs.

Bro I do not give a **** what other people do. But this blatant dishonesty from you two is really something else. It's harmful to everybody, whether that's prospective mains, people that need to learn the MU, people that actually play the character in tournaments, etc. But whatever, you guys believe what you want. I can't do any more than I have. This whole place is just about whoever shouts loudest anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I seriously do believe that what Marth needs the most atm are visual fixes a-la-Meta Knight, that way people will stop underrating him.

Other than that I'd give him a tiny frame buff but other than that he's ok, I can see him being a character who can hold his ground against a good enough amount of top tiers as soon as the big-ish commitment of using nair/fair in neutral is gone.

Bruh.....

wut?

 

[DunnoBro]

I love how everybody thinks they know how to balance the game.

Hoo-hahs for everyone.

...Except diddy.

 

[Vipermoon]

By visual fixes you mean hitboxes matching animations? GOD YES. That is pretty much all he needs. The only other major thing you can do is buff the throw damage (kb adjusted).

 

[wedl!!]

this list is a lot better than the last, but still not great. zss is better than pika and rosa, pika should be #3. lucas should not be above anybody in the dk>ike range. roy at the top of B shows me that redditors don't actually know how to play this game.

falcon/yoshi also continue to get ridden on by reddit, probably because they saw some funny meme montages and now believe they're better than villager/wario/mk (imo neither of them are, they're probably the weakest of the high tiers).

Pretty sure most people on reddit still believe Marth is unusable garbage.

yes, reddit still believes that marth is low tier garbage. i got into an argument with a reddditor who told me multiple times that marth had no neutral and no frame traps.

sometimes i can't believe that people like this remember how to breathe.

 

[C0rvus]

this list is a lot better than the last, but still not great. zss is better than pika and rosa, pika should be #3. lucas should not be above anybody in the dk>ike range. roy at the top of B shows me that redditors don't actually know how to play this game.
falcon/yoshi also continue to get ridden on by reddit, probably because they saw some funny meme montages and now believe they're better than villager/wario/mk (imo neither of them are, they're probably the weakest of the high tiers).



yes, reddit still believes that marth is low tier garbage. i got into an argument with a reddditor who told me multiple times that marth had no neutral and no frame traps.

sometimes i can't believe that people like this remember how to breathe.

I think that's the same guy I argued with over Marth. He had some decent points, but then contended that Marth was completely unable to win neutral. I showed him videos, we talked theory, but he still held on to his strange strawman argument. Reddit is weird.

Not only is Marth one of the kings of footsies, alongside Ryu and couple others, he is at his most dynamic and interesting incarnation yet. The dynamic between tippers and sourspots isn't just "hit tippers always", and he doesn't have an outrageous grab and chain throws that compound with amazing autocancels. Marth doesn't currently oppress and invalidate most of the roster; but he's on the cusp of viability. He's a pure spacing character. Reddit just sees that he isn't busted.

 

[LightLV]

You do know that Marth has jab and Uair as true confirms into tipper right?

Oh you didnt?

Well...****

sure didn't!

you mean jab confirms into Uair? Or Jab and Uair confirm into Uair or Fair tipper?

Either instance seems like a very powerful asset to have, especially seeing as that should kill at a relatively low %, if it works in the midrange. Yet i doubt it does, because that would make marth a much better character than he is, both on paper and in results.


But hey, i do love being proved wrong, especially about characters I enjoy playing....If anyone has any real videos or matches that display Marth being able to accurately confirm into tippers near kill percentages, i would be very grateful.

Otherwise, i stand by what i've been suggesting about him. All variables considered, his tipper mechanic has fallen too close into the grey area between "practical" and "gimmicky".

 

[Smog Frog]

seriously, what does it take for redditors to realize that isnt top 5? just because he frequently makes top 8 appearances in xanadu doesnt mean he's a character capable of winning a major...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jab is a 50/50 though vs heavies it is real. Uair to tipper f-smash is real vs everyone but works at various percents. But you may need to stutter step or perfect pivot after the Uair to catch their DI.

Try it yourself. I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

And no it wouldnt make Marth better cuz those set-ups require timing and spacing and ZSS and Sheik just do moves and get results.

Such is the state of the current meta.

 

[LightLV]

And no it wouldnt make Marth better cuz those set-ups require timing and spacing and ZSS and Sheik just do moves and get results.

And this, right here, is why i legitimately believe Lucina is equal, if not situationally better than, Marth. Nobody agrees with me, because tipper setups exist, and yet i rarely see tournaments where people pull it off.

That power being hidden behind a wall of execution and spacing in a game where the best characters just don't give a flying **** about your moveset OR your hitboxes, in a game with no shield properties anymore...i just don't see the tradeoff anymore : (

Marth and Lucina to me just feels like a choice between +6 STR or +10% crit rate.

 

[Ze Diglett]

*actually thinks the new reddit list is pretty much perfect*
*shuffles awkwardly in chair a bit*

 

[Emblem Lord]

And this, right here, is why i legitimately believe Lucina is equal, if not situationally better than, Marth. Nobody agrees with me, because tipper setups exist, and yet i rarely see tournaments where people pull it off.

That power being hidden behind a wall of execution and spacing in a game where the best characters just don't give a flying **** about your moveset OR your hitboxes, in a game with no shield properties anymore...i just don't see the tradeoff anymore : (

Marth and Lucina to me just feels like a choice between +6 STR or +10% crit rate.

No. The hit lag modifier ****s all over Lucinas existence.

Marth is now ALWAYS safer then Lucina on block and ALWAYS rewarded more for hitting someone.

She is now 100% worthless in a competitive environment.

 

[Routa]

Yeah... Reddit list is... Well... Erm...

Well at least better than Eventhubs'... He he...

But talking with common redditor about tiers is like talking about different genres of music with a 11 year old girl...

But anyways doesn't Lucas kinda lack range in his moves? I mean he is some what of a zoner, but it seems like many of his moves don't have that zoner range.

Edit: so many grammatical errors... I need to get glasses or something.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bro I do not give a **** what other people do. But this blatant dishonesty from you two is really something else. It's harmful to everybody, whether that's prospective mains, people that need to learn the MU, people that actually play the character in tournaments, etc. But whatever, you guys believe what you want. I can't do any more than I have. This whole place is just about whoever shouts loudest anyway.

Well then, what exactly ARE you trying to achieve by posting clips and pics of funky Mewtwo shenanigans?

Regardless of who's right or wrong though, you can't just turn people away from trying or putting practice into a character that they have interest in unless their sole intent is winning and winning alone.

 

[Mario766]

It's Reddit.

People still think it's a good place for serious discussion.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

When Peach actually gets results (or, indeed, players) then maybe she can be on the same tier as DK or Pacman, but for now, all she is is a bit of theorycrafting and a lot of nothing.

 

[Luigi player]

With ZSS grab you have to understand is that from max range, this 1/4 of the stage you speak of, the grab takes 24 frames to connect. That's twice as long as Luigi's slowest attack, his fsmash, and even without anticipation you can react to it every time.

You're talking about max range? That could be possible. But if she's near (not too hard with that speed and overall treatening presence) I doubt you can react to it.
People are really overdoing that lol. Zero said in a video about Link that you should just stay in shield against him and just roll behind him out of reaction to his grab and punish him with a smash or something. I've tried this and it's impossible for me to react to that. You can try to read it, but solely reacting you'd need superhuman reaction time and react to basically any motion Link does before you even know that it's a grab.

The Luigi I commonly play against consistently punishes my whiffed grabs with Luigi's up b. I've died to it as early as 45% after the buff. Here's an interesting thing to consider as well:

you don't know ZSS' struggle

Heh, I guess I can see that. Wiffing grabs up close against Luigi is of course resulting in a hard punish, but will you really wiff aka will he dodge / roll accordingly? Depends I guess.
I definitely saw a bit of a struggle for ZSS while trying to get grabs with her myself, but once you get the hang of it it's really something. You need to know when you can just throw them out where it's likely you'll get the opponent, and when he can't punish you super hard like Luigi could if you miss close to him and are at a higher %s. But not everyone is Luigi and can punish with such a fast and strong killmove... then again I don't know if ZSS really needs grabs in that MU anyways... though it should be possible to catch Luigis landings with grab sometimes since he's so floaty (as long as he doesn't perfectly time a fireball to hit you grab attempt, and if he does, your dashattack will probably hit him while you get hit by the fireball (or the fireball isn't out yet), both of which still would give ZSS' the advantage).

 

[Illuminose]

When Peach actually gets results (or, indeed, players) then maybe she can be on the same tier as DK or Pacman, but for now, all she is is a bit of theorycrafting and a lot of nothing.

"when Peach actually gets results"

How's about SlayerZ beating Ally, Zenyou, Void, Mr ConCon, Vinnie, and K9 in recent SoCal tournaments? Or Umeki having recent wins against Nietono, Nyanko (one of Japan's top Sheiks), taranito (best Ness in Japan), and Yuzu (second best Rosalina in Japan)? Peach has some good players and results.

 

[T4ylor]

Edit: Illuminose just 'd me.