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I think he just outplaced some of those players, iirc Ally lost to Void and Concon at the socal tourney he was in with Slayerz.
I thought 1st in a 120~ man regional counts as a result.
Yea people talk about reacting to tether grabs in this game, like 16 frames is easy because it's 267 ms. But the game has like 6 frames of input delay, and your spot-dodge/roll has start up frames, and you have to actually react to what they're doing (you just know ZSS is doing something at first, and this is even more murky because telling the difference between the first few frames of different animations can be difficult). Suddenly your 16 frame start up move requires closer to 7-8 frames (133 ms) reaction time at best, which I'm pretty sure is impossible from visual stimulus. Plus, I'd imagine all these reaction time tests would get way worse results if you were only supposed to click on a green flash, and it would flash yellow or blue to confuse you. Multiply that 10 fold since characters have so many options in smash.
Considering many moves of theirs had their ending/landing lag buffed, unless there are situations that still exist in the game where Lucina will get certainly punished for a blocked move whereas Marth wouldn't, I don't see the massive advantage here, safe is safe. I mean come on it's not like Marth has blockstrings.
Lucina Utilt and FSmash reach are also objectively worse. Utilt doesn't step her forward, and she has less vertical reach on her best kill move (it can't even hit Bowser below a BF platform when he's above her).
It annoys me when I post objective fact and your only response is subjective opinion combined with incorrect information.
Ok let me rephrase so you can understand.
I feel like people are going to perpetually underrateMarth underrated again?
Big surprise.
Such a shame people don't seeand
because he'll likely never be back to the same level as his Melee and Brawl incarnations. I kind of went on a rant about this maybe a month ago with him, , and because it baffled me to how not a lot of people took them seriously despite getting the most buffs of any characters in this game. At least people are finally starting to see that have plenty of room to grow and are far from the worst swordsmen in the game. (AKA Ruse Doge) is continuing to fall because I've said since the beginning that he's pretty much this game's /, somebody super annoying until people start to figure him out and realize his blatant weaknesses. As others have said, I think are still riding their release hype because none of them have really done anything super impressive yet. probably has the most potential of the three and it's probably going to take him awhile for him to develop thanks to his high learning curve but he's not the monster many of us theorized he would turn into yet. Because of this reason, having him sandwiched between and , two characters who have grown tremendously since the beginning and have impressive results to back them up, doesn't make a lick of sense.
Don't you just love smashboards?
I'm gonna be honest here. While I agree that it is highly unlikely that every single character could win a national, in terms of regionals and locals I think everyone is viable. Overwhelmingly bad matchups are really uncommon in this game (30:70's like the worst anyone can have and is pretty rare for Sm4sh) and each character has their traits that give them solid niches in the metagame (and in the case of Lucina, who doesn't really have a niche over Marth, the character itself is just really solid for the most part). Dedede, for example, has taken a couple regionals despite having a really terrible matchup spread. Trela has taken locals with two characters in D rank on the Reddit tier list and, while I know little about Samus, Zelda's matchup spread isn't terrible enough to prevent her from taking a regional or at the very least a local when she's got some nice assets like Farore's Wind in general (k.o. move, OoS punish, movement tool w/ ledge canceling, recovery), a finally decent projectile/bodyguard in Phantom Slash with the buff, Naryu's Love in general, potential kill moves and a great punish game. Not saying that it isn't a struggle for any of those characters, but I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to say that everyone is viable. Call me naive if you want, but that's my belief.
At the very least, Reddit is significantly more informed than Event Hub and the discussions about tiers won't inherently launch your sides into orbit like those on Youtube and Cheezburger/Knowyourmeme. Like a lot of unofficial tier lists, most people are in agreement about the top/high tiers but the mid and low tiers are opinionated nightmares and it's pretty obvious that it cycles through flavors of the month. Either way, I usually only have a few strong disagreements each month so I think it's typically well thought for something that isn't official.
LiteralGrill
plan. 
All those factors play into a character's viability.You know when comes right down to it no community is perfect. Every community has it's up's and down's and every community has it's rotten apples. Smash boards is no different in that regard. However we as a community shouldn't insult reddit players. We should instead help the fellow reddit players have a better understanding of the meta. Even if some of them our idoits. Which is why I'm all for @
As I said before it's ok. Not reliable but it's way more accurate compared to eventhubs
Anyways here's a question for all of you guy's who are in this thread as of right now. Now I know this question has probably been asked a thousand times but I want to ask this regardless. What is the most crucial key factor for a character to become viable? Is it Tournaments results? Matchup spreads? Representation? or Potential?
I know that their all factors. But I'm asking which is the most important if you had to choose.
I don't think it works out that conveniently in practice. Those fast/small character are difficult for Lucina to deal with as well, and the only advantage I can think that she offers in those specific scenarios is the threat of forward smash/upsmash. But even then... they're not reliable.I personally think there are few specific scenarios where Lucina is better than Marth, like dealing with fast/small characters that want to commit, get uncomfortably close or trade hits, but yeah, the overall balance favors the Hero King.
I personally think that Marth's safety on his aerials might actually play better for Lucina, who can condition opponents into shielding her aerials and mixing up Shield Breaker a bit more than Marth.
Somethingsomething tippers.
To me, MU spreads are what I value most in a high-tier character. It's why I don't think R.O.B. can realistically be top 15 in the current meta as his matchups against the top/high-tiers just aren't in his favor at all, save for a few that he goes even with. Tournament results/representation are fine too, but if you're basing your entire opinion on what characters are good mostly off of tourney results/rep, you might as well be making a popularity tier list rather than a viability tier list. And of course, there are a lot of characters that have loads of potential, but just don't have any mains going out and taking names (
in a nutshell), so nobody actually thinks they're worth a damn because "muh results."
Your comments on the DLC characters are almost literally the same exact things you chastised people for saying about Marth and Lucina. You can't have them one way. The DLC guys haven't been out for even 1/5 of the time the other characters have. Obviously they don't have results yet.I feel like people are going to perpetually underrate
On this list, I'm not surprised that
Ah, I missed that.
They both struggle hard against safe rushdown characters. Lucina gets more benefit at some scenarios where opponents must commit and she just has to stop or trade with them without worrying about her spacing while Marth would.
Marth's aerials are so safe that most characters would not even want to shield them if just avoid them and try to punish a whiff is more effective.
Shieldbreaker has a minimum startup of 19 frames. It's way too slow for a situation like that. It's pretty much reactable. It's only really good as a ledge cover and occasionally after a jab 1 at low to mid percents to catch people off guard (since when you are in the air and can't double jump out, your only option is to hit Lucina or try to spot or roll the SB, making it more likely that they will panic shield expecting fsmash)They both struggle hard against safe rushdown characters. Lucina gets more benefit at some scenarios where opponents must commit and she just has to stop or trade with them without worrying about her spacing while Marth would.
That pretty much only includes Jigglypuff and a not particularly spacey Sonic, but that's my point.
Marth's aerials are so safe that most characters would not even want to shield them if just avoid them and try to punish a whiff is more effective.
Lucina's are more prone to get shielded because they are more unsafe, giving her more opportunities to SB.
Not even remotely reliable, but a very occasional mixup (read: people might not even fall for it) Lucina has over Marth, IMO.
Okay MAYBE a dozen matches in the entire world in an entire year will Lucina being barely worse against shields be able to break a shield because... of that fact... Wut. Even if this happens for that exact reason it's not enough for the whole thing to "actually play better for Lucina."I personally think there are few specific scenarios where Lucina is better than Marth, like dealing with fast/small characters that want to commit, get uncomfortably close or trade hits, but yeah, the overall balance favors the Hero King.
I personally think that Marth's safety on his aerials might actually play better for Lucina, who can condition opponents into shielding her aerials and mixing up Shield Breaker a bit more than Marth.
Somethingsomething tippers.
The thing is, you can't always avoid aerials, so there will be cases in which blocking is the best option against Marth (and Marth is objectively better than Lucina in this regard). But ideally, if an option is effective against Lucina, it's also inherently effective against Marth. In other words, whether i'm playing against Marth or Lucina, my counterplay shouldn't be all that different between the both characters. That's why I don't really believe in the idea that Lucina is more prone to getting shielded; if anything, she should space her attacks in a way that makes her relatively safe (but still objectively less safe than Marth), otherwise she's just asking to get blown up. Honestly, even "occasional" is pushing it for the mixup you mentioned due to its long start up. Shieldbreaker is situational-yet-viable, but your Lucina scenario is just too convenient for my liking.Marth's aerials are so safe that most characters would not even want to shield them if just avoid them and try to punish a whiff is more effective. Lucina's are more prone to get shielded because they are more unsafe, giving her more opportunities to SB.
Not even remotely reliable, but a very occasional mixup (read: people might not even fall for it) Lucina has over Marth, IMO.
No, he actually beat all of them. Ally lost to Slayerz and Concon.
You overrate Pacman's results (I dont know much about DK) and underrate Peach's. He literally mentioned Umeki, but other than those there are Peaches such as Crow, llod and EOE (and probably more) who have also enjoyed success using solo Peach. Meanwhile Abadango gets first using Pacman in GF, but aside from Pacman he also used Rosalina and Meta Knight a lot. In a Japanese interview, he said that he was unsure whether his Pacman could beat Umeki's Peach, which is why he used his Meta Knight. He probably felt the same va taranito's Ness, against whom he used Rosalina. Abadango's results dont necessarily proof Pacman's viability as a solo main. He did show that Pacman may be a good choice vs Sheik and some other characters though.
It's something I want to add to my game with mewtwo. Also it's pretty decent witb Rosalina since you should be able to getuma landing aerials perfectly.
