Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Charoite]

Other than the claim that DK can kill you at 40% with the ding dong, this video is pretty on point.
Tl;dr
DK is viable now, camp him out to win. Fight him as you would a gigantic Luigi with traction.

well, dk has no proyectile, but he has moves that can punish shield, and he actually has good mobility in the air and has better mix-up in this grab game and throw game with cargo throw that luigi, and that makes a big difference in playing against him that luigi, DK, will no use the same moves outside of a throw against you because not everthing is guarranted in the same percent.

 

[DunnoBro]

His disadvantage state is worse and he has no approach forcing game with fireballs. Also his grab combos while more potent in certain situations, are also stricter with percents/rage. He's much easier to fight than luigi, for most characters not fast fallers. (I think diddy gets it just as hard as vs luigi)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

His disadvantage state is worse and he has no approach forcing game with fireballs. Also his grab combos while more potent in certain situations, are also stricter with percents/rage. He's much easier to fight than luigi, for most characters not fast fallers. (I think diddy gets it just as hard as vs luigi)

Well yeah. Im not saying DK is literally a big Luigi. I'm saying that you fight them in similar ways. You keep them out and try not to go in. Only difference is that once you get past the Ding Dong kill range, you go ham on him until backthrow starts to kill.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well yeah. Im not saying DK is literally a big Luigi. I'm saying that you fight them in similar ways. You keep them out and try not to go in. Only difference is that once you get past the Ding Dong kill range, you go ham on him until backthrow starts to kill.

I should get used to actually quoting people lol... Was referring the other post trying to make it sound like DK was harder to fight than luigi.

Though I think I even read that wrong. Not my best day.

 

[LightLV]

....Ryu SDing with a 52% lead, and then being killed by a very-clearly-noticably-not-true-combo Fsmash tipper? Not sure what you're showing me really. That video did Ryu more justice than Marth, honestly.

I said jab to tipper is a guess. Uair to w/e is not a guess. You just have to not suck and be able to hit confirm.

Stupid stuff that never happens? Marth dtilting a shield vs Lucina dtilting a shield never happens? If I say Marth hitting a shield is safer then her hitting a shield in EVERY circumstance...that NEVER happens?

Safer, "safer" "safer" "safer"...The term i'm looking for is "punishable". And unless there's a situation where, at the same range, Marth is unpunishable where Lucina is, then AGAIN i'd like someone to kindly let me know.

 

[PK Gaming]

Nonsense? Haha, whatever.

Anytime someone wants to talk about how Marth is FACTUALLY better than Lucina, people love to bring up these mythical tipper JAB TO FSMASH "true combos" that are so amazingly great.

Yet nobody is able to show me a video of it ever happening in a real match, nor explain how it's "true" when you can simply move out of the way of Marth's garbage hitboxes. Apparently "TRUE" means something different in Smash, i dont know.

Or how Marth is "safe" when he gets his **** pushed in on block just like everyone else who isn't S-tier.

Ill say it for the millionth time, if you're going to lose to a good Marth, you're going to lose to Lucina too.


Until someone can show me something real...and by REAL i don't mean no bull**** training theorycraft mode videos, i mean someone competent actually playing someone competent...and Marth is able to consistently take advantage of his strengths, i'm standing by my opinion. They aren't that far off from one another, and if you have to stretch Marth's advantages so far for the sake of such a silly comparison...well, you shouldn't.

the sad thing is, people keep bringing up all this stupid stuff (that never happens) that Marth can do, while nobody ever brings up things that ACTUALLY do make a difference. Like Fsmash tipper on ledge vulnerability, or his Uair tipper being decent, ect. Just "LOLMARTH IS SAFE" (haha) or "TRUE KILL COMBO" (mhm) all day.

Calm down.

Getting angry and confrontational isn't going to strengthen your case whatsoever.

I think this set does a good job of showcasing Marth's strengths. Give it a shot.

 

[warionumbah2]

You asked for a video of a marth fighting a competent player and pulling off jab --> fsmash. Why are you getting so emotional today?

 

[DunnoBro]

Safer, "safer" "safer" "safer"...The term i'm looking for is "punishable". And unless there's a situation where, at the same range, Marth is unpunishable where Lucina is, then AGAIN i'd like someone to kindly let me know.

Pretty sure spaced tipper stuff having more shield push makes him just not get punished in a good few situations.

Also yea, the Ryu clearly outplayed the marth then lost because he had to suddenly play from a huge deficit. But I think that video was just to show jab > fsmash is a reliable combo/frame trap and you just asked to see if it happened in a real match...

 

[Wintropy]

Gonna go against the majority here somewhat and say:

S:
A:
B: (not ordered, might include others)

I'm just gonna be that cat and ask where Pit factors into this? Communal consensus seems to be that he's somewhere in what would be, in this context, be termed B-tier. You know the drill: decent matchup spread, doesn't get quite bodied by the top-tiers, serviceable toolkit, moderate representation from Nairo and Earth.

I realise I'm missing the entire point of the exercise here, but it felt a bit of a distinct omission to me (disregard the fact that I am currently wearing my angel-coloured glasses).

Incidentally, I'd love to hear your thoughts on R.O.B. Was a tad disappointed he didn't turn up in you brief explanations, which were otherwise solid reads. :3

 

[Fatmanonice]

Your comments on the DLC characters are almost literally the same exact things you chastised people for saying about Marth and Lucina. You can't have them one way. The DLC guys haven't been out for even 1/5 of the time the other characters have. Obviously they don't have results yet.

Which is why it doesn't make sense to why they're so highly rated in people's minds. Lucina and Marth have gradually improved over time and yet they're consistently rated on the low end of things while people are ranking the DLC characters on par with characters that actually got Top 8 at Evo and Smash Con.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pretty sure spaced tipper stuff having more shield push makes him just not get punished in a good few situations.

Also yea, the Ryu clearly outplayed the marth then lost because he had to suddenly play from a huge deficit. But I think that video was just to show jab > fsmash is a reliable combo/frame trap and you just asked to see if it happened in a real match...

Literally this. At all of this.

@ L LightLV I'm going to be a little harsh as far as Marth vs. Lucina goes right about now because everyone else has been just talking shield safety.

People play Marth because he rewards their spacing more and once you get really good at it, it becomes consistent. There is a plateau in this regard that you're going to hit as Lucina, you are not rewarded for utilizing all the range on your attacks with devastating kill power, you simply have....ok kill power. Her FSmash is objectively worse for more reasons than just tipper though, it can NOT hit above her like Marth's can. Marth can tip people on platforms with FSmash (most of the cast barring hurtbox oddities). Like, I'm not even going to talk shield safety, he's just more rewarding to be better with. Like, should there be any other reason? Why bother with full blade consistency when you can space and have it be even stronger (RIDICULOUSLY STRONG even) and edgeguard just as well, if not better? Is there a purpose?

Basically, what can LUCINA do that Marth can't without more practice? Also Marth having an infinitely better Utilt because it steps him forward, forgot to mention that. This is ALSO Marth specific. If you lose to a good Marth player and he switches to Lucina, your chances of winning statistically go up. If they play Marth good and they space well, why in the world would Lucina even matter?

 

[Jabejazz]

Basically, what can LUCINA do that Marth can't without more practice?

Be the prettier girl.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Literally this. At all of this.

@ L LightLV
Basically, what can LUCINA do that Marth can't without more practice?

According to the Pika mains around here: have the better MU against Pika between those two.

 

[TTTTTsd]

According to the Pika mains around here: have the better MU against Pika between those two.

I'm still not in full belief of that myself. I mean, hey, could be wrong but I haven't seen it play out at all and I can't see it being that different. Maybe it's easier to kill him from randy FSmashing but, eh, still not seeing it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Both these are late but, Megafox has on or off days. Some days he'll beat Jband's Luigi to the point he'll try to go MK or sheik to counter him but still lose, or he'll lose to Jband's Luigi solidly.
TGC4 Denti knew he couldn't win against Mega with Sheik, so he went Luigi and won. So chalk that down for another Luigi > fox.

For 2nd point... can it be a reportable offense when you post Zero vids?

No wait a 3rd thing, report people for trying to make that stupid hoo hah meme into different variations, the latest hot maymay being ding dong.
Stop it, you're not funny or original.

 

[LightLV]

Calm down.

Getting angry and confrontational isn't going to strengthen your case whatsoever.

Why are you getting so emotional today?

Oh my, no need to get defensive people, sorry. I seem to have forgotten what forum i'm on.

I think this set does a good job of showcasing Marth's strengths. Give it a shot.

Meh. It was a bit painful to see him fish sooooo harrrrdddd for those Fsmashes and not get grabbed or punished for any of it. I mean i'm not the best player in the world, but I can say with confidence a more defensive yoshi would have had a much easier time with that marth. He was shooting them off for free.

Pretty sure spaced tipper stuff having more shield push makes him just not get punished in a good few situations.

Also yea, the Ryu clearly outplayed the marth then lost because he had to suddenly play from a huge deficit. But I think that video was just to show jab > fsmash is a reliable combo/frame trap and you just asked to see if it happened in a real match...

What i said was that jab>Fsmash is given way more weight right now than I think it's deserving of. Fox's old jablock > Usmash, or Palu's Dthrow > Uair are all possible killtraps for instance, but simply knowing how they aren't real destroys their efficiency. And in Marth's case, that jab setup is not guaranteed nor is it 50/50 on anyone near kill range.



@ TTTTTsd disclaimer : I do not play Lucina and I don't think enough of Marth to play him anymore.

Now, this argument here (skillcap and maximum efficiency) is what i've been saying about this discussion for the longest in favor of Marth. The reason I no longer hold Marth as a mathmatically superior character is that despite the POSSIBILITIES of his strengths, practically taking hold of them in Smash 4 honestly is about as many equal parts player skill as it is opponent ignorance. The two videos shown in reply to me just help drive that point.

Being able to score a 60% kill from midscreen should be enough of a reason, but when you play against people who respect that option and adjust for it, things are different. There is just not enough offensive leeway in Smash 4 for me personally to assign as much weight to Marth's tipper mechanic as others do. Against some opponents, such as those with large hitboxes or laggy moves, i'd feel comfortable going for the early tipper kill. Against others, i'd gladly trade that critical hit chance for a flat damage/KB increase.

So, what i'm saying is, that while Marth IS technically speaking a better character on paper because of tipper and nigh-insignificant hitlag modifier (which exists solely to make his sword feel weaker, him being "safer" (?) is most certainly by mistake), the finer details of what make him a better character, personally speaking, don't add up definitively.

People can disagree, I mean i expect them to. But for some reason when Lucina comes up, Marth becomes a drastically different character in discussion than he's ever shown to be in practice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Just going to say that if people are avoiding my tippers as Marth there's a high likelihood I'm not going to be hitting them with Lucina FSmash either because they will not be avoiding my tippers by deliberately getting hit by the sourspot. All of Marth's strengths that people play around in matches against him are worse off for Lucina because she doesn't have said strengths, at all, but she still has the same attack range. It's infinitely less threatening, to me. Oh, I got FSmashed? It doesn't kill that efficiently unless it's near the ledge. I don't have to worry about tippers at all, it's easy sailing.

Also none of her aerials can kill like his can either, particularly in the field of edgeguarding. Ledgetrump Bair is a kill for Marth if they're sleeping on the ledge. And thankfully setting up tipped aerials both on and offstage is pretty easy compared to hitting FSmash. Like, I just can't see the meaningful tradeoff for Lucina. It just doesn't stand out to me.

She, to me, in most areas, is Marth without a mechanic. You are never threatened by her maximum range compared to her minimum range. It's just....meaningless, really. Tippers are and always will be better defensively to me anyways, it's why good Marth play involves smart neutral and good spacing in this game.

 

[DunnoBro]

Look man I actually think Lucina's prettier too, but Marth's just such a gentlemen...

 

[LightLV]

Just going to say that if people are avoiding my tippers as Marth there's a high likelihood I'm not going to be hitting them with Lucina FSmash either.

Also none of her aerials can kill like his can either, particularly in the field of edgeguarding. Ledgetrump Bair is a kill for Marth. And thankfully setting up tipped aerials both on and offstage is pretty easy compared to hitting FSmash.

All true, again, assuming your tippers are consistent.

As for everything else, if you don't think the better damage is worth it, don't play Lucina.

I tried her when the game launched, switched to Marth because she sucked, and then switched from Marth because, well, he sucks too.

But at this point in the game, the reasons I say Marth sucks still totally 100% exist. But Lucina is the only one who's gotten damage buffs. Marth's strengths are significant, but competitively unreliable considering the way everything plays out in smash 4.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All true, again, assuming your tippers are consistent.

As for everything else, if you don't think the better damage is worth it, don't play Lucina.

I tried her when the game launched, switched to Marth because she sucked, and then switched from Marth because, well, he sucks too.

But at this point in the game, the reasons I say Marth sucks still totally 100% exist. But Lucina is the only one who's gotten damage buffs. Marth's strengths are significant, but competitively unreliable considering the way everything plays out in smash 4.

Ya know it's ok for you to admit when you're wrong or when you don't understand something. When Marth came out he was bad. However, he's a lot stronger since the buffs. For your opinion not to change is just you being stubborn. We've even have high level examples of Marth.

 

[Gawain]

For as stubborn as Marth's defenders are and despite how wrong i think they are in a lot of aspects, this is actually irrefutable.There is no situation where Lucina is better. Not sure what the angle in this discussion is.

 

[LightLV]

Ya know it's ok for you to admit when you're wrong or when you don't understand something. When Marth came out he was bad. However, he's a lot stronger since the buffs. For your opinion not to change is just you being stubborn. We've even have high level examples of Marth.

LoL. When he starts getting results, i'll quote everyone and say i was wrong. I'll even throw in a meme picture. Until then, he's better than Lucina by 2~5 frames and a critical hit.

There is no situation where Lucina is better. Not sure what the angle in this discussion is.

The angle is, unless Marth is playing at near max efficiency, on average, him and lucina aren't doing any better than one another.

If you're getting kills at 130%, you are playing no better than you would with Lucina.

If you're taking stocks at 60~80%, then you're playing to Marth's strengths correctly.

If you're getting bodied, it probably would happen to you regardless of which you chose.

**If you simply lost the match, again, being Marth wouldn't have likely changed this, had you picked Lucina. But the possibly for this to not be true (Tipper!) is the reason people tend to rate Lucina far, far lower than she'd ever be otherwise. I'm simply suggesting that this projection is a bit silly, considering how Marth performs by his lonesome.

Whether or not the second option is able to be consistent one is where i was taking the argument, but instead it became another generic Marth/Lucina discussion. Which i find hilarious, considering the same silly crap people keep quoting at me, i've been saying over on the Lucina boards for ages. I've been asking for examples of consistency, but i don't know what i really expected to find when i asked, considering what the smash community usually puts up.

 

[Ghostbone]

No wait a 3rd thing, report people for trying to make that stupid hoo hah meme into different variations, the latest hot maymay being ding dong.
Stop it, you're not funny or original.

I mean you realise DKWill named it the ding dong right.

It's more necessary for DK tbh because I know I can't be ****ed saying cargo throw to full hop to up-throw to double jump to up air everytime I want to describe DK's kill options.

 

[DunnoBro]

Still prefer m2k's original name for it...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

LoL. When he starts getting results, i'll quote everyone and say i was wrong. I'll even throw in a meme picture. Until then, he's better than Lucina by 2~5 frames and a critical hit.



The angle is, unless Marth is playing at near max efficiency, on average, him and lucina aren't doing any better than one another.

If you're getting kills at 130%, you are playing no better than you would with Lucina.

If you're taking stocks at 60~80%, then you're playing to Marth's strengths correctly.

If you're getting bodied, it probably would happen to you regardless of which you chose.

Whether or not the second option is able to be consistent one is where i was taking the argument, but instead it became another generic Marth/Lucina discussion. Which i find hilarious, considering the same silly crap people keep quoting at me, i've been saying over on the Lucina boards for ages. I've been asking for examples of consistency, but i don't know what i really expected to find when i asked.

And people like this guy are the perfect reason why results only is bad. I can tell you some regional results from a guy who attends the sane tournaments as me who has gotten 2nd at a philly tournament top 16 at sunmer jam and won my local with Marth. Then there's the fact that ally has beatrn rayquaza with Marth also. In that video nick riddle used Martg and I believe he won that tournament. False winning 8 on the break and coming 2nd in another tournament with Marth. However, these resukts are only at a local / regional level. So I'm sure you'll change your criteria.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean you realise DKWill named it the ding dong right.

It's more necessary for DK tbh because I know I can't be ****ed saying cargo throw to full hop to up-throw to double jump to up air everytime I want to describe DK's kill options.

I literally don't care if god himself named it ding dong, just call it uthrow to uair lol

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I literally don't care if god himself named it ding dong, just call it uthrow to uair lol

Never.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I personally call it "Elevator Antics" cause he takes you up to the top floor (also DKC).

But U-Throw Uair works too.

 

[Charoite]

Well if you want to be right it will be foward throw, to up throw to up air.

 

[Ghostbone]

I literally don't care if god himself named it ding dong, just call it uthrow to uair lol

It's not u-throw to uair though, you realise that right.
Idk why you're so mad at people using the established name because writing out the whole combo is annoying.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

The New-Ha is what I like to call it, personally.

 

[DunnoBro]

You guys talking about "the throw combo that should've went to duck hunt"?

 

[Nobie]

Does anyone else think that there's a kind of poetic justice to watching Diddy Kongs get Ding Donged? Like, "This is how it feels."

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Straying from current "hoo-haa ding-dong" topic and on some more relevant.
How bad does sheik beat luigi? Since if it's like 60:40 or 65:35, then that means I could pretty much main any character in the game and just have luigi in my pocket to win consistently.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's definitely 63.2482:36.7518
/calling out the brawl pikachu boards.

I don't like matchup ratios, it's a reasonable disadvantage for luigi, very hard to win at top level (but not unwinnable)

 

[Zionaze]

From a viewer perspective, when a commentator saids Ding-dong, beep-boop, etc I just can't take the match seriously anymore.

 

[|RK|]

From a viewer perspective, when a commentator saids Ding-dong, beep-boop, etc I just can't take the match seriously anymore.

You're watching a gorilla with a tie stomp on other colorful videogame characters.

Ding dong is fine.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Once people realize that crouching is still stupidly good against Roy, I don't think anyone will call him a good character.

Also I believe his matchups against the FE cast (minus Robin) are in fact unwinnable competitively.

what? no. Wanna know who gets demolished by duck? ZSS. Wanna know who is top tier, ZSS. ducking doesnt make a character go from good to bad.

 

[David Viran]

what? no. Wanna know who gets demolished by duck? ZSS. Wanna know who is top tier, ZSS. ducking doesnt make a character go from good to bad.

Plz no.

 

[A2ZOMG]

what? no. Wanna know who gets demolished by duck? ZSS. Wanna know who is top tier, ZSS. ducking doesnt make a character go from good to bad.

I don't think ZSS gets demolished by crouching to anywhere near the same extent as Roy does given Roy actually DEPENDS on his aerials to not suck in neutral.

The FE cast abuses this and have better ranged ground normals than Roy, PLUS Counter edgeguard. So I believe Roy from that already has competitively unwinnable matchups.