Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

Well see, that's the thing. I practice the Mario MU with others, both offline and online, and the best Mario I fought couldn't beat my Ganondorf nor Link. But I might as well keep practicing.

Anything for the Sheik MU with Link?

Try to overuse your superior range, hitting extended hurtbox. But it's pretty dead if she get the lead.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I know we been talking about Ike lately and after fighting Waldo in my pool at SKTAR I wanna say this dude is REAL!!!

The combos, the damage, the footsies, the jab combo, the nair to fair being a thing even at high percents like post 100%. This dude is legit scary. Don't get me started on Bair. He lacks kill confirms but the ability to just put someone in a guessing game and you can throw out a SAFE Bair with huge disjointed range and even if you miss you probably won't be punished.

smh

The Radiant Hero has no sympathy to give.

 

[Kaladin]

So I know we been talking about Ike lately and after fighting Waldo in my pool at SKTAR I wanna say this dude is REAL!!!

The combos, the damage, the footsies, the jab combo, the nair to fair being a thing even at high percents like post 100%. This dude is legit scary. Don't get me started on Bair. He lacks kill confirms but the ability to just put someone in a guessing game and you can throw out a SAFE Bair with huge disjointed range and even if you miss you probably won't be punished.

smh

The Radiant Hero has no sympathy to give.

Were you on stream? I'd like some footage of that matchup. At any rate, did you get wafted? If you did, how many times and why? I think the Ryu/Wario matchup is super interesting, and I'm trying to figure it out.

(Also- Wario jab is F8 and does 9 damage. The wario boards seem to think that dtilt is always a better option. How did he use jab?)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Were you on stream? I'd like some footage of that matchup. At any rate, did you get wafted? If you did, how many times and why? I think the Ryu/Wario matchup is super interesting, and I'm trying to figure it out.

(Also- Wario jab is F8 and does 9 damage. The wario boards seem to think that dtilt is always a better option. How did he use jab?)

Why are you asking about Wario when I'm talking about Ike?

lolol

 

[Kaladin]

Why are you asking about Wario when I'm talking about Ike?

lolol

LOL I misread Waldo as Wario.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I did fight a Wario though so I guess its your lucky day. I got wafted once. Out of my tatsu recovery. Stupid easy to hit really. The wario player used Jab mostly as a quick punish and gain positional advantage.

Anything else?

 

[LancerStaff]

Dark Pit used to be Pit with lower base knockback on his Ftilt, a different Side Special, and more damage on his Silver Bow than Pit's Palutena's Arrow. Well, now Pit's rapid jab is different to Dark Pit's Pit's pre-patch 1.1.0 rapid jab. At this rate, either they're going to define Dark Pit as a Melee clone or do something stupid and make him pre-patch 1.1.0 Pit while Pit becomes something different. My money's on the more pessimistic choice. It just feels hypocritical when you say you want different characters, but end up making them more similar to others or just haphazardly changing characters to make them different.

Quick note on the jab differences... Pretty confident they both received a KB angle change on the rapid hits. Pit's bigger hitbox is strictly at the base and pretty irrelevant for how and how much you'd use the rapid jab. And either Pit never received the hitbox increase on 3DS, Dark Pit did on 3DS, or the bots are being highly unco-operative... Haven't gotten around to testing that since I gave the 3DS back.

However, you are correct about Pit getting better then Edgy. You know about the aerial lag reduction on arrows, right? They both got it of course, but the problem becomes obvious when you consider the fact that you're not hitting diddly up there with Dark Pit. Actually, this whole issue would be resolved a good deal if they brought the endlag of grounded arrows down to where they're at in the air... Not entirely sure why they're different to begin with.

And IMHO, not really representative of most Pit's opinions, Dark Pit's Ftilt is better because of how effective it is in jab lock combos, whereas Pit's KOs once in a blue moon.

I'm not too worried either way. Pittwo's one property/angle/damage change away from being equal enough for it to not matter.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Emblem Lord as far as I'm aware you're the first good Ryu to go up against a known Ike: what do you think of the MU?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike wins.

Am I done?

But no seriously hmm, its prolly even when both chars play optimally. Ryu can punish Ike so hard with utilt chains and Ike just kinda has to suck that up. But Ike wins the footsies war. Focus Attack makes Ikes life hard but Tatsu is kinda easy for him to harass or outright gimp with spike. Generally Ryu is a better whiff punisher as any thing whiffed past 90% is death for Ike. Waldo misinputed an f-smash, I spot dodged and a Shoryu ended him at a little past 85% or so but I had hella rage.

Hadoukens are solid vs Ike but he can jab them for free but it least it gives Ryu time to do another.

Ryu def has to be on point though for it to be even. I feel at mid level Ike demolishes Ryu.

 

[Djent]

So...Shield Breaker is indeed a good move.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So...Shield Breaker is indeed a good move.

That was so goddamn hype holy hell
http://oddshot.tv/shot/rushhoursmash-20150822225624656

 

[FullMoon]

That was so goddamn hype holy hell
http://oddshot.tv/shot/rushhoursmash-20150822225624656

Oh man I love Shield Breaker so much. Breaking a shield with it is so satisfying.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Did everyone else saw how Nakat was using Lucas? That's why I think Lucas is High Tier. The combos are real.

 

[TriTails]

Before I forget, @Spinosaurus mentioned Doc's Fireball. I do feel the need to talk about this.

The IASA is legit garbage. It's not really an issue on Mario, he has the mobility to cover the IASA window pretty handily, but if we look at the old IASA (going by Brawl, I believe it was 43) compared to what it is now, which is 53, that's insane!

It's been in my head for a while but if Doc Pill had the old IASA the character would be ridiculously better. Think of the first custom move people bring up when they talk about optimal Doc customs, it's usually fast pill, all for the sole reason of space control. Vitamins have a really good trajectory in this game, the arc is basically perfect for stopping momentum to some degree.

If this had an actual plausible IASA (maybe 43 would be excessive, but like, I have no other number to pull out) they'd actually be very usable for space control and would help tremendously. In fact, compared to the bunch of other changes you'd need to make to have him be a lot better with the current pill, this would probably be like, the quickest fix possible.

Woah. That's the same end lag as Luigi's Fireballs.

As long as Mario and his insane airspeed (19th to 6th fastest omg) doesn't get one. I'd be fine with it.

Why? Cause I play both Marios and I shudder to even imagine Mario with that kind of end lag. Doc and Luigi at least have bad mobility. Mario's is in the other end of the spectrum. Next thing we know, he's combing aerial Fireballs into aerials/grabs all over the place.

 

[Nobie]

Whenever I see people say, "I can't approach the way I want to" or "the game is too defensive" it often translates to "I can't short hop aerial shields."

 

[NachoOfCheese]

One thing Boss did a lot with Doc was Dthrow Uair, but that is punishable on hit. He got Naired by Snow's sheik almost every time he tried it.
Dthrow to Bair is a true combo until high percents and its much safer with higher damage output. Not sure why he wasn't doing that. And I've already talked about Fthrow to pill reset.

 

[Goesasu]

Problem that i have is that i can't really argue with ppl that place him there with no knowledge of said character: It's hard to argue when the only thing they've seen is some fraudulent Doc secondary in the bracket of a tour who uses Dthrow Uair to nothing at Low% and then they think " Oh Doc has **** combos " which isn't true, or even give us some flaws that we don't have, it's kind of annoying and that's why i wish for someone to main Doc and show the best of his abilities.

Actualy there is a tip in game that says doc down throw has a lower angle than marios and it allows more combos.

I dont main doc so dont ask me what those combos are, but they are in the game

 

[Marcbri]

Quick note on the jab differences... Pretty confident they both received a KB angle change on the rapid hits. Pit's bigger hitbox is strictly at the base and pretty irrelevant for how and how much you'd use the rapid jab. And either Pit never received the hitbox increase on 3DS, Dark Pit did on 3DS, or the bots are being highly unco-operative... Haven't gotten around to testing that since I gave the 3DS back.

However, you are correct about Pit getting better then Edgy. You know about the aerial lag reduction on arrows, right? They both got it of course, but the problem becomes obvious when you consider the fact that you're not hitting diddly up there with Dark Pit. Actually, this whole issue would be resolved a good deal if they brought the endlag of grounded arrows down to where they're at in the air... Not entirely sure why they're different to begin with.

And IMHO, not really representative of most Pit's opinions, Dark Pit's Ftilt is better because of how effective it is in jab lock combos, whereas Pit's KOs once in a blue moon.

I'm not too worried either way. Pittwo's one property/angle/damage change away from being equal enough for it to not matter.

Ftilt is a good KO move to cover normal getup as it has more active frames than the smash attacks and KOs really early. It's also a pretty good antiapproach option against mostly grounded opponents. There's no real setups to jab reset with an ftilt anyways, so it's actually way more common to KO with Pit's Ftilt than to lock with Dark Pit's one.

 

[Kaladin]

Soooooo, predictions for top 32 tomorrow? Are there any DLC mains that made it?

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Raises hand

 

[LancerStaff]

Ftilt is a good KO move to cover normal getup as it has more active frames than the smash attacks and KOs really early. It's also a pretty good antiapproach option against mostly grounded opponents. There's no real setups to jab reset with an ftilt anyways, so it's actually way more common to KO with Pit's Ftilt than to lock with Dark Pit's one.

There's better ways to cover getups, namely Dair. Space it for combos at lower %s, or groundbounce > Fsmash for a KO. You can even control which side you end up on.

Fthrow and especially Bthrow set up jab locks. Don't know where you've been... Dark Pit can Bthrow > pivot Ftilt > Ftilt > whatever until 50% or so on Mario. Fast fallers have it much worse.

Ftilt really isn't safe as an anti-approach option since it's so slow. If you're trying to KO then an Fsmash would obviously be better, and that both comes out on the same frame as Ftilt and has more effective frames since nobody's going to be running in between the hits. SH Dair is largely safer and combos into almost anything.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Woah. That's the same end lag as Luigi's Fireballs.

As long as Mario and his insane airspeed (19th to 6th fastest omg) doesn't get one. I'd be fine with it.

Why? Cause I play both Marios and I shudder to even imagine Mario with that kind of end lag. Doc and Luigi at least have bad mobility. Mario's is in the other end of the spectrum. Next thing we know, he's combing aerial Fireballs into aerials/grabs all over the place.

Mario with a good fireball like this would be hell on Earth. It's why I think only Doc needs it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So far this is who made it to bracket. Still like 4 pools left though.

Nairo, Emblem Lord, Dabuz, Shippo, Mr.E, False, Angel Cortes, Fat, DKWill, PWii, the HelpR, Dugan, 6WX, DireOnFire, Tweek, Mister Eric, Fatality, Hackoru, Jtails, Ling Ling, ADHD, Max.Ketchum.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi yet again has little to no representation...

Or are there any Luigis I miss?

 

[Djent]

OCS James used at least vs. Camalange's

 

[Noa.]

I remember when SKTAR was huge and had tons of players traveling.

But I have to say I haven't heard any advertising for this year's SKTAR.

At least it's a decently sized regional.

 

[TriTails]

OCS James used at least vs. Camalange's

Lemme guess... he lost?

I think Luigi is very well might be a secondary character as he counters some characters that little characters do (Fox, Mario, Diddy for example) but loses against Sheik and Rosalina...

But people have been dropping him as of late (False pretty much did. I think Larry Lurr did too?), and now are looking for pocket Marth or MK.

But my babblings aside, did Mr. CC entered the tourney?

And more importantly, where is da stream?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Mario with a good fireball like this would be hell on Earth. It's why I think only Doc needs it.

As Doc could be considered a defensive kind of Mario ( I'd rather call him balanced, some Doc really go aggro in some matchups, and considering some of our tools, it isn't bad ), i'd buff all kinds of defensive tools that could be judged as unfairly bad or not as good as it should be, BackThrow kind of is the main target.

 

[Firefoxx]

Lemme guess... he lost?

I think Luigi is very well might be a secondary character as he counters some characters that little characters do (Fox, Mario, Diddy for example) but loses against Sheik and Rosalina...

But people have been dropping him as of late (False pretty much did. I think Larry Lurr did too?), and now are looking for pocket Marth or MK.

But my babblings aside, did Mr. CC entered the tourney?

And more importantly, where is da stream?

James won his pool

Edit: Does anyone know what happened to NAKAT? He somehow lost to a bye so im guessing he missed his matches?

 

[Marcbri]

There's better ways to cover getups, namely Dair. Space it for combos at lower %s, or groundbounce > Fsmash for a KO. You can even control which side you end up on.

Fthrow and especially Bthrow set up jab locks. Don't know where you've been... Dark Pit can Bthrow > pivot Ftilt > Ftilt > whatever until 50% or so on Mario. Fast fallers have it much worse.

Ftilt really isn't safe as an anti-approach option since it's so slow. If you're trying to KO then an Fsmash would obviously be better, and that both comes out on the same frame as Ftilt and has more effective frames since nobody's going to be running in between the hits. SH Dair is largely safer and combos into almost anything.

For covering regular getup dair only setups into anything if it hits on the first frame, which is pretty hard to do constantly. Hitting with the latter frames will send the opponent up instead. Ftilt is active for 5 frames, that's something that's easy to hit constantly instead of going for a 1 frame move like Fsmash or Dair. You can watch how Earth will cover getups with Ftilt regularly.

Anywone who fails to tech bthrow/fthrow either has never played against Pit and gets surprised once or is just plain bad. Most characters can use moves before getting to the ground or even jump.

Fsmash doesn't really have more active frames than Ftilt and it's actually very easy to get in between both hits. Hell, people will just shield the first hit and spotdodge the next for a bigger punish. Stuff like Metaknight's dash attack or Sonic's spin can be punished greatly with Ftilt (and Dair and more stuff, but we're talking about these 2 moves). Ftilt isn't slower than Fsmash, they're both moves that start at the same frame but Fsmash has considerably more lag. Of course the reward for hitting an Fsmash is bigger but it's both easier and safer to use Ftilt.

 

[TriTails]

James won his pool

Edit: Does anyone know what happened to NAKAT? He somehow lost to a bye so im guessing he missed his matches?

Don't see him in Emblem Lord's list. But if it's true then good for him.

I just don't believe in pocket Luigis lol.

EDIT: Da stream?

 

[Nobie]

Nakat has mentioned how good his teamwork is with False but man it really shows.

 

[.Alpha.]

Good Luck in the tourney Emblem I'm always rooting for you to prove Ryu is not too complicated to match with high tiers in competitive play.

 

[LancerStaff]

For covering regular getup dair only setups into anything if it hits on the first frame, which is pretty hard to do constantly. Hitting with the latter frames will send the opponent up instead. Ftilt is active for 5 frames, that's something that's easy to hit constantly instead of going for a 1 frame move like Fsmash or Dair. You can watch how Earth will cover getups with Ftilt regularly.

Anywone who fails to tech bthrow/fthrow either has never played against Pit and gets surprised once or is just plain bad. Most characters can use moves before getting to the ground or even jump.

Fsmash doesn't really have more active frames than Ftilt and it's actually very easy to get in between both hits. Hell, people will just shield the first hit and spotdodge the next for a bigger punish. Stuff like Metaknight's dash attack or Sonic's spin can be punished greatly with Ftilt (and Dair and more stuff, but we're talking about these 2 moves). Ftilt isn't slower than Fsmash, they're both moves that start at the same frame but Fsmash has considerably more lag. Of course the reward for hitting an Fsmash is bigger but it's both easier and safer to use Ftilt.

I'm a scrub compared to Earth and yet I can consistently use Dair properly... There's just that much more reward on a Dair, and even if you do mess up you have ways to cover yourself and just did effectively equal damage. Compared to the other stuff people pull in competitive environments it's really nothing special.

Of course it's not supposed to be used often. But on fast fallers, especially light ones, you can pull it off occasionally. Much more often then getting a tipper Ftilt KO, anyway.

Most people don't want to flirt with death like that, especially not by throwing out a weaker dash attack. If you're using it outside of a read you deserve to be punished. It's basically impossible to spot dodge if you don't shield the first hit, and easily catches any other dodge.

The thing with Ftilt is that it's a pretty late KO move... Most of the time they'll be killed before you even consider using it in a situation where it would KO.

 

[Marcbri]

I'm a scrub compared to Earth and yet I can consistently use Dair properly... There's just that much more reward on a Dair, and even if you do mess up you have ways to cover yourself and just did effectively equal damage. Compared to the other stuff people pull in competitive environments it's really nothing special.

Of course it's not supposed to be used often. But on fast fallers, especially light ones, you can pull it off occasionally. Much more often then getting a tipper Ftilt KO, anyway.

Most people don't want to flirt with death like that, especially not by throwing out a weaker dash attack. If you're using it outside of a read you deserve to be punished. It's basically impossible to spot dodge if you don't shield the first hit, and easily catches any other dodge.

The thing with Ftilt is that it's a pretty late KO move... Most of the time they'll be killed before you even consider using it in a situation where it would KO.

If Ftilt is going to KO how is there exactly more reward in a Dair that can be teched? If they're not gonna die from Ftilt (average characters die around 110%, less with rage), then sure, go for the dair or a grab and combo them, but if it's going to kill there's no reason to go for a dair.

Those jab resets don't work at all, it'd be cool if they did, but they don't. I've tested them, people were escaping them accidentally lol.

About the spotdodge, what I said is that you just shield the first hit, spotdodge the second one and can do pretty much anything you want to Pit since Fsmash has 60 frames endlag and you don't even get to push their shield with their second hit.

Ftilt is not a late KO move if you're playing Pit instead of Dark Pit. You can consistently kill at 100-120 at the ledge which is pretty decent for him

 

[TriTails]

Ftilt is not a late KO move if you're playing Pit instead of Dark Pit. You can consistently kill at 100-120 at the ledge which is pretty decent for him

With rage? Because I'm sure as hell don't remember Pit's F-tilt KOing that early.

And yeah. F-smash unless perfectly spaced isn't even safe on Luigi's shield. F-tilt on the other hand...

 

[Marcbri]

With rage? Because I'm sure as hell don't remember Pit's F-tilt KOing that early.

And yeah. F-smash unless perfectly spaced isn't even safe on Luigi's shield. F-tilt on the other hand...

It has to hit with its tipper, which kills way earlier than dark pit's. I don't have data for how much rage affects the move but from experience I'd say it kills about the same with/without. Rosa and some light chars can get killed under 100 easily. Besides the knockback it has a pretty good angle that helps get kills. Main reason Pit's better than Dark Pit is arrows but this is still significant as it's an extra kill option.

 

[Antonykun]

I have a question to mewtwo mains/people who probably know more about the guy than I do: how hard is it to land a grab? I feel like i have to do extra effort than I should

 

[LancerStaff]

If Ftilt is going to KO how is there exactly more reward in a Dair that can be teched? If they're not gonna die from Ftilt (average characters die around 110%, less with rage), then sure, go for the dair or a grab and combo them, but if it's going to kill there's no reason to go for a dair.

Those jab resets don't work at all, it'd be cool if they did, but they don't. I've tested them, people were escaping them accidentally lol.

About the spotdodge, what I said is that you just shield the first hit, spotdodge the second one and can do pretty much anything you want to Pit since Fsmash has 60 frames endlag and you don't even get to push their shield with their second hit.

Ftilt is not a late KO move if you're playing Pit instead of Dark Pit. You can consistently kill at 100-120 at the ledge which is pretty decent for him

They're not going to tech it every time, especially if they're prepared to escape a combo. Pretty sure you're at a frame advantage no matter how it's teched regardless.

Dair is safer then Ftilt... Didn't you just get done telling me Ftilt was better because it's easier? Once mastered, Dair is just safer in most situations. I think it's well past the point where it can be used consistently.

I understand the shield thing, but I'm saying Fsmash beats a spotdodge in the raw. Fsmash KOs a whole 20% faster, and that's without the first hit. Usmash KOs at the same point with "bad" positioning, with good positioning I believe it's faster then Fsmash.

Okay, where have you been? I'm not saying I'm right, but if you've been aware that the jab lock stuff doesn't work, why haven't you said anything on the Pit forums? We could legitimately use more capable players such as yourself if you're that knowledgeable about the character. I'm practically running the place when I have time, when I don't it basically dies.

 

[Nobie]

I have a question to mewtwo mains/people who probably know more about the guy than I do: how hard is it to land a grab? I feel like i have to do extra effort than I should

Mewtwo is tall so his grab misses a lot of characters who crouch right when they land from an aerial. You might not be used to this from playing short characters like Villager and tiny Swordfighter.

Mewtwo also has Luigi-esque traction so unless you powershield you often slide when shielding strong attacks. This can put you out of grab range.

I've started to think about whether to purposely try to walk deep into an opponent's expected attack before shielding to better the odds of me getting that grab in.