Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

What the **** is this ****?

yooooooo...i can't...

Ganon is awesome as ****, but he is not viable.

He doesnt have the consistency of even Luigi who all but disappears at even regional level play.

Viable means you top 8ing at high level tournies (regionals at minimum) consistently. Can Kirby do this? Luigi has the potential and even he isnt doing this. So wtf Kirby?

Everyone CAN do this, it's just really, REALLY, REALLY hard to do it

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait wait.

R.O.B is viable?!?!

Yo what is this life!!!!!!??!???!?!

 

[Nu~]

Everyone CAN do this, it's just really, REALLY, REALLY hard to do it

Consistently. Kirby can't get top 8 consistently

 

[PUK]

We've discussed this in here previously, but right now it's just too difficult to organize that kind of effort especially with patches changing things so often and still being unsure with how Miis are even going to be handled by all tournaments. If the game can settle a bit maybe, but for now it's just not logical to try. I mean, I can ask every top player to make a list anjd compile the results, but when a patch ruins it in a few months... why?

Well we can still do it. Right now we have a lot of results, no major incoming, no patch before more or less a month, maybe no DLC before october, Top players are bored...
It's not the perfect time, but it's the best until Feb/ Ma 2016

Everyone CAN do this, it's just really, REALLY, REALLY hard to do it

Yes a good player can carry a low tier in a good environment, but that's it. It doesn't make the character viable, just not completely garbage.

 

[Kaladin]

With the new patch, I would submit that Kirby has a grab game equal to or better than weegee. A 63% true combo on Sheik off a grab is pretty damn good. Combine that with one of the best pumbels in the game (out of curiosity I decided to track how much damage I get off Kirby's pumbels on average, and they account for ~20% each match with good mashing from my opponent) and two functional kill throws, and you have a high mid/high low tier viable character. If there was an ESAM of Kirby, he would have consistent results.

 

[TriTails]

Kirby has good airiels as well, so he could possibly knock you away as you try to gimp him but this is one of Kirby's weakness, he is very susceptible to gimping.

And his aerials have one of the shortest range in the game iirc.

And if he's very susceptible to gimping then his recovery is not good.

And we better off holding on making a tier list now. Because most top players are still like 'Oh hang on. I'll pull out a tier list outta my ***', as much as I respect them.

 

[Pazx]

Wait wait.

R.O.B is viable?!?!

Yo what is this life!!!!!!??!???!?!

This not-immensely-serious post actually says a lot. If a well-perceived, top 20 or better character isn't deemed solo viable that should tell you everything you need to know about the viability of the rest of the cast, Ganon and Kirby included. Sorry low tier heroes, you're out of luck.

Kirby's buffs are pretty cool and pretty significant as he goes from a character with pretty good reward who can't get in (and can't deal with shields all that well) to a character with very good reward who still can't get in, but I'd hesistate to call his grab game better than Luigi's... I'd hesitate to call any grab game better than Luigi's right now.

 

[Nobie]

Anyone who's used a low tier character or character archetype probably came into Smash 4 not wishing for a whole lot. "I just want a fighting chance, is all." Then we got it. Now people want more. They've tasted that small bit of the good stuff, and now they can't forget it.

Somewhat fortunately, Smash 4 is always looking to change its recipe (i.e. patches).

 

[Spinosaurus]

It's about time we accept that Smash 4 in reality doesn't have that many viable characters.

 

[Kaladin]

This not-immensely-serious post actually says a lot. If a well-perceived, top 20 or better character isn't deemed solo viable that should tell you everything you need to know about the viability of the rest of the cast, Ganon and Kirby included. Sorry low tier heroes, you're out of luck.

Kirby's buffs are pretty cool and pretty significant as he goes from a character with pretty good reward who can't get in (and can't deal with shields all that well) to a character with very good reward who still can't get in, but I'd hesistate to call his grab game better than Luigi's... I'd hesitate to call any grab game better than Luigi's right now.

It's certainly debatable. Who gets a better reward off grabs assuming optimal execution? Hard to say, but the most I've seen a luigi get off a grab is ~50%, which Kirby can equal. However, luigi definitely kills better with dthrow bair and dthrow down B.

It's about time we accept that Smash 4 in reality doesn't have that many viable characters.

Doesn't it? We had 7 different characters in top 8 at EVO. That should say something.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Doesn't it? We had 7 different characters in top 8 at EVO. That should say something.

And they're all perceived top tiers. None of them are surprising, except maybe Wario, who was a counterpick.

The gap is only gonna get bigger and bigger.

 

[TriTails]

If we are counting optimal execution into account, Luigi would D-air chaingrab everyone bar Bowser and rack up to like 60-70%. IDK if it's DI-able but if you DI towards Luigi's D-throw that potentially can be your reward.

Also, remember Luigi has legit 2 kill options from D-throw and a kill throw in B-throw. U-throw when people airdodge after it can be used to set up for some early high up Cyclone kills. F-throw is just F-throw tho.

 

[Nu~]

And they're all perceived top tiers. None of them are surprising, except maybe Wario, who was a counterpick.

The gap is only gonna get bigger and bigger.

Pac-Man isn't a perceived top tier tho

I do agree with your point however

 

[Wintermelon43]

Pac-Man isn't a perceived top tier tho

I do agree with your point however

Abadango didn't use him in top 8 I don't think

 

[Nu~]

Abadango didn't use him in top 8 I don't think

Ah , yeah that's right. Forgot that his match against ESAM wasn't in top 8

 

[Spinosaurus]

Still got to top 8 with him though which says something. Still an exception rather than the rule though.

 

[Kaladin]

And they're all perceived top tiers. None of them are surprising, except maybe Wario, who was a counterpick.

The gap is only gonna get bigger and bigger.

Except if we look at stats, it has been growing. We had like 7 diddies and a sheik in Apex top 8.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Except if we look at stats, it has been growing. We had like 7 diddies and a sheik in Apex top 8.

There was a Sonic, a Rosalina, an Olimar, and a Pac-Man. and 2 Sheiks.

 

[C0rvus]

Man, it's almost like this game is part of the Super Smash Bros. series. You can play your favorite Nintendo characters and have fun for endless hours. But if you want to play competitively, you'd better like fast, weak characters or you're going nowhere. Although the recent majors had better variety in top 8 and top 32 placings than Apex, is it safe to say we have reached the point of no return? Have we got the best characters all sorted out? Play time's over, kids. Play a top tier or you're guaranteed to drown in pools at every major you attend.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Except if we look at stats, it has been growing. We had like 7 diddies and a sheik in Apex top 8.

What?
There were only two Diddy's.

 

[Asdioh]

Man, looking at Kirby's air speed and run speed is so depressing. It's the most important buff we've been needing this whole time, but Nintendo seems unwilling to change statistics like that, so it'll probably never happen.
Like, run speed:
33-37 Luigi 1.5
33-37 Lucas 1.5
33-37 Wario 1.5
33-37 Kirby 1.5
33-37 Ike 1.5


Kirby's tied with these dudes... Ike has huge sword disjoint, Lucas has disjoint and projectiles, Luigi has absurdly fast moves, a good projectile, and best grab reward in the game, Wario has 4th best airspeed (as opposed to Kirby's 4th worst)
It's hard man

 

[Illuminose]

What?
There were only two Diddy's.

To be fair:

Apex had two Diddys, two Sheiks, Rosalina, Olimar, Pac Man, Sonic, and Duck Hunt.

EVO had two Sheiks, Diddy, Pac Man, Wario, two Rosalinas, Mario, Marth, Pikachu, and Ness.

 

[Minordeth]

We have a fairly decent size case of viable characters. It may expand, it may not. Unfortunately, the other characters that have possible viability have been heavily affected recently by patches (Ike, Link, Charizard, or whatever) or they are DLC characters with <3 months of play. It doesn't help that quite a few players either don't have the means, or desire to travel outside of regional tourneys, so we can't really gauge if that viable cast expands.

TL;DR - someone buy Ryo a ticket to Paragon.

 

[Emblem Lord]

With patches and time I feel the list of viable chars will grow. But right now we know who has the higher probability of winning out of the cast.

 

[monzer]

Ok, I think my standards for what counts as viable was way to loose. Now I would consider the list to be this.

Highly Viable:
Somewhat Viable:
Not Viable:

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, I think my standards for what counts as viable was way to loose. Now I would consider the list to be this.

Highly Viable:
Somewhat Viable:
Not Viable:

Remove Roy, Ryu, Pit, Dark Pit and Mii Brawler because customs arent even a thing anymore.

After that tier 1 is looking solid.

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, most def. Speaking of viability, we got a Ryu, a Bowser Jr., and two DK's in top 32. Yes, I'm including M2DK in there.

 

[Asdioh]

When asking if something is viable I think an interesting criteria is "Could ZeRo have come anywhere close to a 40+ tournament winning streak if he had mained this character?" and then you'll have your answer.

And if he had chosen Kirby then hell no lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

M2K used like...1/4 of the friggin cast to get into top 32 >_>

 

[Minordeth]

He was encouraged by that MVG Grand FInals. He is going with his heart. Pray for him.

 

[Kaladin]

If we're being honest, M2K is riding his smash fundamentals. He's really only mid level in smash 4 (I'd wager someone like Tweek of EmblemLord could beat him), and he's obviously not a character specialist.

 

[Trifroze]

We've discussed this in here previously, but right now it's just too difficult to organize that kind of effort especially with patches changing things so often and still being unsure with how Miis are even going to be handled by all tournaments. If the game can settle a bit maybe, but for now it's just not logical to try. I mean, I can ask every top player to make a list and compile the results, but when a patch ruins it in a few months... why?

Patches rarely change things that much, and even in those few cases where they do push someone up or drag someone down by more than a couple spots we'd at least have some kind of a base for making those judgments on. Even when patches happen, most characters will remain right where they were and others will move up a spot or two but still stay in the same tier which is the most important part, and the ones who get either the Greninja or Ike treament we can move up an entire tier or two, exact placing being irrelevant. The list doesn't need to be updated every patch as it's easy enough for most people to make the switches in their own minds when necessary. It really isn't that complicated and would be very interesting and help out a lot. Japan has already made a 1.0.4 and 1.0.6 list at least.

 

[monzer]

Remove Roy, Ryu, Pit, Dark Pit and Mii Brawler because customs arent even a thing anymore.

After that tier 1 is looking solid.

Remove Ryu and the Pits? I thought that they were considered to be around Captain Falcon's level?

 

[Emblem Lord]

How can we truly come to that consensus? CF at least has a legion of players doing work. Ryu and Roy are still new and havent done anything at regionals/majors yet.

I know Roy had local success early on and Ryu is still doing well on a local level, but his neutral is hard to grasp. And Roy players imo...dont really...get him yet. I get him...cuz ya know..hes not hard to get. But they seem obsessed with TEH COMBOZORZ!!!!! Sethlon and Pwii are the only Roys in tournament I have seen that "get" it.

I will say that Ryu will probably push ahead in his meta quickly since he has more heavy hitters and innovators behind him.

Pits havent done a damn thing to my knowledge other then Nairo.

 

[Wintropy]

Remove Ryu and the Pits? I thought that they were considered to be around Captain Falcon's level?

The Pits tend to meander about the very bottom of the high-tier echelons in most people's opinion.

To be fair, Nairo's the only international player that tends to use (Dark) Pit. The representation isn't really there the way it is for other high / top-tiers. The angel boys aren't really incredible in any way, just fundamentally solid overall.

 

[David Viran]

To be fair:

Apex had two Diddys, two Sheiks, Rosalina, Olimar, Pac Man, Sonic, and Duck Hunt.

EVO had two Sheiks, Diddy, Pac Man, Wario, two Rosalinas, Mario, Marth, Pikachu, ZSS, and Ness.

Fixed it.

 

[monzer]

Actually come to think of it, Nairo really is the only person who uses the Pits. Sometimes it's hard to tell if the character is good, or if the player is just really good. I see you're piont now, no dlc characters should be fully viable this early in thier release.

 

[C0rvus]

Earth is a very skilled Japanese Pit. Other than Nairo and Earth, I can think of nobody.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Earth also uses Pit ... people keep forgetting about him and I have no idea how the hell that's possible considering how ridiculously slick that man's play is. He also has great results ... Pit is definitely solid.

Anyway, I think some of you guys have to be crazy with how carelessly you throw around the term "viable".

Edit: The ninjas be real.

 

[Blobface]

If flame choke wasn't techable, I would have no doubt that Ganon was viable. But as is, his best option to deal with shielding is a complete guessing game against 2 key characters that he has no guaranteed followups on off a missed tech, Rosalina, and much more importantly, Sheik. The problem Ganon has here is that all of Sheiks option here, whether she techs or not or what getup she uses, are equally viable with no clear benefit to any of them. That means he has to cover 7 completely different options just to properly transition into his advantage state off of what was an incredibly difficult-to-get hit.

Which is stupid. Especially considering how most characters don't have fast/good enough tech options for this to be an issue, but Sheik does.

Two things would make Ganon viable.

1. Flame choke is techable, but F-tilt and D-tilt are guaranteed across the cast on a missed tech

2. Flame choke is not techable, but he has no guaranteed followups

I've gone into detail about this before, but the reason Ganon isn't viable is because his matchup against the most common character is borderline random whether he wins or not, and at a national level, he has to go through way too many Naruto wannabes to get to top 8 (if that's the definition we're using). Changing Flame Choke as such would make this matchup much better (and way less random) without overtuning his strengths against other characters.

Or the Japanese could keep under rating Ganon and get him buffed to top tier levels. I'd be completely fine with the top tier of a game actually being a fearsome character rather than an electric rat, a fox, a ball with a mask and a sword, a monkey, or a ninja that can't even try to kill you till 140%.


Side note, Ganon's F-smash has 6 active frames and is the same strength throughout.

Wat.