Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo can usually do jab to grab, but yeah his grab range is pretty short, and his height hurts him here. I never thought getting grabs with him was too hard, but I'm used to having a tether grab lmao

 

[RayNoire]

I have a question to mewtwo mains/people who probably know more about the guy than I do: how hard is it to land a grab? I feel like i have to do extra effort than I should

It's pretty hard. Mewtwo's grab range is one of the smallest, and that combined with his terrible traction makes shield grabs pretty uncommon.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't see him in Emblem Lord's list. But if it's true then good for him.

I just don't believe in pocket Luigis lol.

EDIT: Da stream?

OcS james is one of the better Luigi's and has taken sets off of boss Keitaro and tweek.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

As Doc could be considered a defensive kind of Mario ( I'd rather call him balanced, some Doc really go aggro in some matchups, and considering some of our tools, it isn't bad ), i'd buff all kinds of defensive tools that could be judged as unfairly bad or not as good as it should be, BackThrow kind of is the main target.

All I want is a tornado that links. Other than that he's totally balanced.

 

[TriTails]

All I want is a tornado that links. Other than that he's totally balanced.

Not when your U-air has much worse angle for both killing and comboing while only dealing 1% more.

B-throw is weaker than Mario's for no reason. I mean. We are talking about slower but stronger Mario here. He already is weaker than Mario in grab game (No U-throw + D-air + F-air spike shenanigans. No D-throw U-tilts), at least give him a better kill throw considering his ability to get grabs is bit in lower levels than Mario.

Pills need lesser end lag to compensate for mobility. But maybe this would be a bit too much when combined with the other buffs.

A Tornado that goes higher sounds good also. His recovery is like, really bad bruh. I agree on him having bad recovery but having worse vertical recovery than Ganon unless there's a wall and you can mash like a god while keeping yourself in a wide open state in Doc Tornado isn't good enough.

Damage output increase on some attacks (Jab. DA(?). N-air). He runs slower than Luigi but is weaker. And what's this. A jacket and stuffs that are kept on hammerspace makes Mario runs slower than a fat*** penguin. Smh.

Just my idea buffing a low tier.

And his Tornado links better than Luigi Cyclone, and I rarely ever let people fall out of it. What are you implying?

 

[monzer]

I would rank viability like this(characters not ranked within tiers):
Viable:

Somewhat viable:

Not Viable:

 

[Yikarur]

your list is completely off imo
- Lucario belongs in the unviable tier. His moveset is garbage, like on Ganondorflevel but aura depending.
- Roy and Marth belong in the second group. Marth is pretty legit but Roy is not better than him.
- Greninja and Ike are viable for sure.
- Lucas is between non-viable and the second group.. there is nothing viable about him. He is not good enough yet.
- and more and more

I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at

 

[monzer]

your list is completely off imo
- Lucario belongs in the unviable tier. His moveset is garbage, like on Ganondorflevel but aura depending.

Most people put Lucario in high tier, and he gets enough tournament representation to prove his viable on a competitive environment.

- Roy and Marth belong in the second group. Marth is pretty legit but Roy is not better than him.

Roy is a lot better than Marth, but I do agree that Marth is underated. I feel he suffers from "Dr. Mario syndrome," where a character in underestimated due to the fact that he is worse than his clone.

- Greninja and Ike are viable for sure.

My main problem with them is that they haven't got much tournament reprentation yet. Why do you think they are viable?

- Lucas is between non-viable and the second group.. there is nothing viable about him. He is not good enough yet.

Lucas is too similar to Ness to not be viable.

 

[Wintermelon43]

your list is completely off imo
- Lucario belongs in the unviable tier. His moveset is garbage, like on Ganondorflevel but aura depending.
- Roy and Marth belong in the second group. Marth is pretty legit but Roy is not better than him.
- Greninja and Ike are viable for sure.
- Lucas is between non-viable and the second group.. there is nothing viable about him. He is not good enough yet.
- and more and more

I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at

"I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at "
"Lucario belongs in the unviable tier."

That's why

I would rank viability like this(characters not ranked within tiers):
Viable:

Somewhat viable:

Not Viable:

IMO if I had to keep the same amount of characters in the same tier (Except for 26 in the first tier because the Pits shoudn't be seperated.), then i'd do:

Add into viable, and remove (Although he deserves that tier),

Add into somewhat viable over (Although they deserve that tier)

If you want reason I'll explain

 

[Wintropy]

"I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at "
"Lucario belongs in the unviable tier."

That's why

I'm sorry, but Lucario just isn't that good. He needs to incur massive damage before he can do anything salient to the opponent, which is a massive weakness to have against certain characters. It may work for characters that rack up damage in small increments (Sheik is the infamous example), but characters with strong KO options wreck him (pretty much every other top-tier comes to mind, plus most heavies). Except for MAYBE Sheik, he doesn't really have any truly good matchups against the other top-tiers.

He gets massive reward for taking damage, which, when stacked with rage, makes him appear to be more viable than he is. Except if your gameplan is "get punched repeatedly in the face until you're strong enough to make a comeback at death percents", that's...barely sustainable. He has to be on the brink of obliteration just to turn the tables. That's dangerous in a scene where safety and consistency define a character's viability.

On another topic entirely~

I'm in a discussion with somebody who believes Roy is a hard counter to Pit.

Is it just me, or is that fundamentally incorrect? I play Roy constantly and I've never reckoned the matchup to be anything more than, at the absolute maximum, -1 for Pit.

 

[Ghostbone]

your list is completely off imo
- Lucario belongs in the unviable tier. His moveset is garbage, like on Ganondorflevel but aura depending.

Lucario has results from kamicario though, which proves the character has workable tools at top level. Lucario is a threat at least

 

[Pazx]

That question probably belongs on the Pit and/or Roy boards but I'm not sure I see Roy hard countering any (relevant) character. I played the matchup today actually, don't really see it being bad for Pit. What does he struggle against? I could potentially see him having some difficulty with characters that outrange and outspace him (and Roy does admittedly have a sword) but overall he seems like the character with the tools to deal with whatever's thrown at him. My day 1 Pit was taking names earlier this week but today I got exposed, the embodiment of an honest character himself is good but he lacks certain top tier attributes that really hurt him in the long run. Also fthrow jab locks don't work. Ever.

 

[Nobie]

Roy is a character of extremes. I think Sakurai, in re-designing him for Smash 4, wanted to do everything in his power to make you able to use that closer sweetspot on his sword. That means being able to press into the opponent, and having great run speed and amazing air speed is the way to do it. However, the result is that he's sort of like a cross between Captain Falcon and Little Mac. Strong rushdown, a beast when it comes to pressuring, but a lack of good air deceleration and poor recovery means he's going to eat it fairly often. I wouldn't say he's unviable but he has very clear weaknesses which Marth doesn't, unless you count "THE THROWS DON'T COMBO," the mantra of many Smash fans who love them combos.

I fought a Roy the other day online as Lucina, and wi-fi caveats aside, it made me hyper aware how vulnerable Roy can be, when I was down on my last stock 90% damage down, and I just stage spiked him at 30% and took the win.

 

[TriTails]

your list is completely off imo
- Lucario belongs in the unviable tier. His moveset is garbage, like on Ganondorflevel but aura depending.
- Roy and Marth belong in the second group. Marth is pretty legit but Roy is not better than him.
- Greninja and Ike are viable for sure.
- Lucas is between non-viable and the second group.. there is nothing viable about him. He is not good enough yet.
- and more and more

I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at

Ganon's moveset is GREAT dude. Falcon's levels on startup (Below-average). Okay. Then we have tons of range, absurd damage output (NONE of his normals and specials when hit properly deal less than 10% except for like D-throw), ******** knockback (Basically everything but jab and throws kill). Then you have godlike U-smash, big*** F-air and U-air, godlike tilts (Not U-tilt), etc, etc.

I'd LOVE to get something like Ganon's U-air, B-air, F-tilt, D-tilt, or DA.

Roy is a lot better than Marth, but I do agree that Marth is underated. I feel he suffers from "Dr. Mario syndrome," where a character in underestimated due to the fact that he is worse than his clone.

I thought Roy does not do better than Marth in any top tier MUs? Summoning @ Emblem Lord because he has experience with the characters.

Although. He probably is already tired on people calling Roy better than Marth.

My main problem with them is that they haven't got much tournament reprentation yet. Why do you think they are viable?

Look up aMSa for Greninja. IDK on Ike but iirc his name was... Ryuga... and one more... Ryo?

And we better buff Ike.

Lucas is too similar to Ness to not be viable.

I don't even own Lucas but wtf are you saying? Someone doesn't need to purchase Lucas to know everything but U-air, F-smash and maybe some more I'm missing are basically completely different from Ness. He even has better run speed and airspeed. They are not alike, at all.

 

[warionumbah2]

Although. He probably is already tired on people calling Roy better than Marth.

At this point everyone's tired of this ****.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...LoF Pwii is the only truly awesome Roy with real footsies I have seen in tourney. He made top 32 same as me.

However Marth has more results even since the patch.

Speaking of them by buddy @LordWilliam1234 went mining through frame data for them and found some stuff that was missed in the last patch. Marth and Roy received shield hitlag reductions on like...everything. Basically they are safer on block on their moves.

Guess who else received shield hitlag reduction last patch?

 

[Shaya]

"Ryu's hit lag made him really unsafe on shield, wah wah wah" - Capcom says to Namco.

"Oh.... that's a thing from that copy and pasted mess? BETTER DELETE IT"
While apparently forgetting about sub 1.0 modifiers...

"Reasons to use Lucina" reduced by 15 (and the whole safer on shield well spaced argument dipping)

 

[monzer]

IMO if I had to keep the same amount of characters in the same tier (Except for 26 in the first tier because the Pits shoudn't be seperated.)

As many characters can be in the same tier at a time.

Add into viable, and remove (Although he deserves that tier),

I agree with moving Kirby and Shulk up and Lucas down, but peach and Megaman lack tourniment representation and Mii Brawler can kill at 30% sometimes.

Add into somewhat viable over (Although they deserve that tier)

Charizard is definitely better than all the characters you want to be moved up after all the buffs he got. Robin belongs in somewhat viable just because of how different he is compared to the test of the cast. I will move down Palutina, but everyone else should stay.
Ganondorf, Marth, and Licina are the only characters who have enough tourniment representation to move up. Jiggs and the Links most likly have potential to be somewhat viable, but from what I've seen they are still yet to be played at a high level by anyone at the moment. Bowser, while his moves have bad frame data, he kills very early and is surprisingly fast. Game and Watch has lots of combos and Gmir has been getting good results with him, showing he is good in a tourniment setting. Dr. Mario is just so out lesser by Mario he is seen as low tier, but I would consider him a viable character.

Now I would change the list to
Viable:
(25 characters)
Somewhat Viable:
(18 characters)
Not Viable:
(12 characters)

 

[Wintropy]

That question probably belongs on the Pit and/or Roy boards but I'm not sure I see Roy hard countering any (relevant) character. I played the matchup today actually, don't really see it being bad for Pit. What does he struggle against? I could potentially see him having some difficulty with characters that outrange and outspace him (and Roy does admittedly have a sword) but overall he seems like the character with the tools to deal with whatever's thrown at him. My day 1 Pit was taking names earlier this week but today I got exposed, the embodiment of an honest character himself is good but he lacks certain top tier attributes that really hurt him in the long run. Also fthrow jab locks don't work. Ever.

The discussion originated on the Pit board, I just wanted input from the clever people. ;3

Pretty much that he's fast and has good priority? I don't think Roy can really space that well, truth told. He's got disjoints, but in execution, he's more brawler than swordsman. Pit just needs to keep on his toes and make sure he stays ahead of Roy.

I just use n-air -> shorthop d-air jablock. :3

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the **** is Kirby viable?

 

[monzer]

How the **** is Kirby viable?

He has tons of combos and a very good recovery, as well as good frame data and a suicide option. He is also floaty so he doesnt get comboed as easily as other characters are. His only weakness is that he is light.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All of that is inhibited by horrid mobility. He HAS to get close to his opponent.

He is boned.

 

[monzer]

All of that is inhibited by horrid mobility. He HAS to get close to his opponent.

He is boned.

All he needs is a grab to start his combos. And he has a decent grab and has average speed.

From what I've heard Kirby actually has a decent matchup against Shiek, whitch has to make him viable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He doesnt get demolished the way many other chars do. A Sheik that is patient loses to no one.

And he has to GET IN to get a grab.

How does he do this consistently with crap run speed, air speed, ect.

 

[Wintermelon43]

All of that is inhibited by horrid mobility. He HAS to get close to his opponent.

He is boned.

I have seen MANY videos showing his strengths. If I need to, I'll give you as much proof as I need.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There are vids of ganon doing work at majors.

Doesnt make Ganon viable.

 

[monzer]

There are vids of ganon doing work at majors.

Doesnt make Ganon viable.

Kirby doesn't have crap run speed though, he Has average run speed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ganon is viable. Everyone's viable.

Also, you know someone who has worse air and run speed? Luigi

 

[Wintropy]

Ganon is viable. Everyone's viable.

Unfortunately, until Ganondorf can consistently match up to characters frequently seen in tourneys and hold his own against the top-tiers, he isn't competitively viable.

Do remember that viability is based on the context of top-level play. Ganondorf just doesn't have the matchup spread or the results to vindicate that notion.

 

[Shaya]

Luigi is more than compensated for it (one of the best dash grabs in the game, major reward off of that, solid neutral against most with fireballs).

Average run speed is kinda crap when you're a character forced to approach.
Not sure how many times you're going to argue 1-dimentionally at best over traits to justify why you think Kirby is stronger than he is.
"Many" anecdotes not in tournament doesn't make a character good either.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Which is not good enough when you want to threaten a grab. And his pokes certainly do not control enough space to force a shield or consistently win in footsies.

Kirby has the reward.

He does not have the means.

Seriously just play Metaknight

 

[Wintermelon43]

Luigi is more than compensated for it (one of the best dash grabs in the game, major reward off of that, solid neutral against most with fireballs).

Average run speed is kinda crap when you're a character forced to approach.
Not sure how many times you're going to argue 1-dimentionally at best over traits to justify why you think Kirby is stronger than he is.

I know that.

 

[TriTails]

He has tons of combos and a very good recovery, as well as good frame data and a suicide option. He is also floaty so he doesnt get comboed as easily as other characters are. His only weakness is that he is light.

How the hell is Kirby's recovery 'very good'? All you need to do is to read airdodges, whack him back with a solid aerial and BOOM! He's boned.

Oh, he uses Cutter? Stage spike him like you would with Ike. You have disjoints? Smack that puffball.

Kirby doesn't have crap run speed though, he Has average run speed.

It's below average. It's not bad by any means but he isn't excelling in that.

Also, you know someone who has worse air and run speed? Luigi

Sure, when he has the fastest normals attack speed in the game, is also floaty, combos like a what, has Fireballs, much better damage output, 2 legit kill options to choose, a burst mobility option (Admitedly, it's quite bad on the ground) and great versatile smashes.

Need I go on? Also, Luigi is tied with Kirby in run speed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People still think Roy is anywhere near high tier?

It's not even about the comparison with Marth ... Roy is just ... not good.

 

[Wintropy]

Also, you know someone who has worse air and run speed? Luigi

Luigi has a projectile that can force an approach. He doesn't need to approach.

As Emblem Lord said, Kirby has good reward potential, but no reliable means of getting into that position.

Coincidentally, this is what holds Ganondorf back, too.

If you can't capitalise on your potential, your potential isn't viable.

 

[TriTails]

On Luigi's approach, Luigi's options might be garbage compared to other characters but in practice, he's actually can pull off some stuffs. Loopy back jump with tomahawks is great, great SH game, and thanks to shields, he can get close from campings. Cyclone also helps. Fireballs can also put some cover and cancels out hillarious amount of stuffs. He's bad, but not all that bad when he's forced to actually.

...That said. It's still bottom tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Which is not good enough when you want to threaten a grab. And his pokes certainly do not control enough space to force a shield or consistently win in footsies.

Kirby has the reward.

He does not have the means.

Seriously just play Metaknight

Lol wow. You're serisualy telling me to switch mains. I can main who I want, thank you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ganon is viable. Everyone's viable.

Also, you know someone who has worse air and run speed? Luigi

What the **** is this ****?

yooooooo...i can't...

Ganon is awesome as ****, but he is not viable.

He doesnt have the consistency of even Luigi who all but disappears at even regional level play.

Viable means you top 8ing at high level tournies (regionals at minimum) consistently. Can Kirby do this? Luigi has the potential and even he isnt doing this. So wtf Kirby?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd love to work on an official tier list. Smashboards, where you at

We've discussed this in here previously, but right now it's just too difficult to organize that kind of effort especially with patches changing things so often and still being unsure with how Miis are even going to be handled by all tournaments. If the game can settle a bit maybe, but for now it's just not logical to try. I mean, I can ask every top player to make a list and compile the results, but when a patch ruins it in a few months... why?

 

[monzer]

Average run speed is kinda crap when you're a character forced to approach.

It's really not that hard to get a grab as Kirby, considering he has a decent dash grab.

How the hell is Kirby's recovery 'very good'? All you need to do is to read airdodges, whack him back with a solid aerial and BOOM! He's boned.

Kirby has good airiels as well, so he could possibly knock you away as you try to gimp him but this is one of Kirby's weakness, he is very susceptible to gimping.


But really, Kirby is only slightly worse than R.O.B on most tier lists. If R.O.B is viable, than Kirby is viable, as they are both upper Midfle tier characters.