Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

Marth's range and disjoint is either the same or more than Brawl depending on the move. Only Fsmash, grab (universal nerf), and up B have less.

Also Fair outranges Sheik's Fair. Wtf kind of claim was that.

Any sane person would assume that but then this is a thing:

 

[Ffamran]

Apparently, Luma's rapid jab can't be clanked with. Chaos's Bowser tried to hit Luma with Fair and Uair, but he clanked while Luma continued to rapid jab during his match against Dabuz in SKTAR's pools.

 

[san.]

Apparently, Luma's rapid jab can't be clanked with. Chaos's Bowser tried to hit Luma with Fair and Uair, but he clanked while Luma continued to rapid jab during his match against Dabuz in SKTAR's pools.

It does clank, Luma just clanks for that one instance and continues with the rapid jab. Only certain moves can beat it. I tested this a few weeks ago with Ike and only his ftilt seemed to beat it every time. Dunno about other characters.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Any sane person would assume that but then this is a thing:

Ironically, that reminds me of this:

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sigh, fixed that for you bro

"Are people seriously falling into the same dumb trap of calling Smash 4 overly defensive, after months and months of overly defensive strategies prevailing?"
Stop being ignorant.

 

[Blobface]

Why do people always think Marth's sword is shorter than previous games?

Anyway, Ganon's aerials are ok, they all fill their niche well. F-air is like an aerial F-smash, slow, powerful, beats other attacks, and it's used in similar situations. B-air is quick and powerful and is one of his few safe options in neutral. N-air is a good combo breaker and a workable approach. D-air is almost an insta kill offstage and is a good getup read at lower %'s.

And then there's U-air, which, IMO, is the single best aerial in the game from a property standpoint. Kills, Fast startup and endlag, a lenient autocancel window, a massive hitbox that arcs all the way around, huge damage, and multiple amazing angles that allow you to put your opponent wherever you want. Seriously, imagine almost any other character in the game with Ganon's U-air.

And for the record, Sheik leans into her F-air more than Marth. Doesn't really matter much when it's disjointed for some stupid reason

But she does.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Seriously, imagine almost any other character in the game with Ganon's U-air.

I just saw my life flash before my eyes.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As in that it's safe to do or?
You would usually go jab 1-2 repetitions in brawl, but for actual option-traps he still likely needs to be following up from jab1 in this game due to "nerfs".

Inputting it is possible. Just as much as jab1-2 dtilt/fsmash/grabbing/etc are.

Jab 2 has different knockback now. If you don't follow it up with the multijab then it sends the opponent diagonally upwards away from Fox into a position where stuff won't reach ... I've actually pulled off jab 2 -> fsmash which is kinda cool but other than that jab 2 -> multijab is the only thing that actually works.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Did we ever talk about how Boss went Doc in grand finals? And took out Snow's Sheik and came really close to beating his Fox?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean Doc has a fairly even matchup against Fox. It's not that big a deal.

 

[M15t3R E]

Viability, more often than not, is based on a character's ability to go even with the more common tournament characters.

 

[Xeze]

Seriously, imagine almost any other character in the game with Ganon's U-air.

Mario with his air mobility and speed, plus Ganon's U-air would be like overkill.

 

[LightLV]

Also Fair outranges Sheik's Fair. Wtf kind of claim was that.

Hmm?

Any sane person would assume that but then this is a thing:

Oh. Would you look at that.

Marth's sword range is garbage on this game, disjointed or no. Falcon's Fsmash outranges his as well. This is one of the reasons i've started saying Lucina isn't really inferior to him as a character anymore. His tipper is strong but his range is ass. You're talking about spacing an attack that only just barely puts him out of range of typical other characters, and he loses strength and KB because of it.

Yeah, marth used to get points for even accidental tippers ending matches better than Lucina, but at this point her advantages vs. his disadvantages are working out to where i'm now asking if tipper is even worth it. Marth is maybe a frame or two safer on shield with tipper, but this is Smash 4 so that's pretty much irrelevant information.

Stop being ignorant.

but am i lying doe

 

[Blobface]

Did we ever talk about how Boss went Doc in grand finals? And took out Snow's Sheik and came really close to beating his Fox?

0/10 not enough face remodeler (Doc Fair)

Anyway is Doc really that bad of a character to begin with? He still has Mario's normals including the U-smash of kings.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Trifroze well okay then. Thanks for showing me that.

@ SpottedCerberus yeah but to be fair, Yoshi's head and nose are wayyyyy in front of his feet

@ L LightLV I was wrong about the horizontal range of Sheik's Fair. But when I said Brawl Marth doesn't outrange and outdisjoint Smash 4 Marth there are numbers to prove that (and prove the opposite) and there's my own testing between both games.

Melee Marth was not tested in the same way but I know for certain that other than grab and Fsmash (Fair and Dtilt will have to be tested), his other moves reach pretty similar to future games. Bar grab and Fsmash, the only reason why Melee Marth is said to have godly range is because range on other characters IS REALLY BAD in Melee.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I mean Doc has a fairly even matchup against Fox. It's not that big a deal.

Viability, more often than not, is based on a character's ability to go even with the more common tournament characters.

Yet everyone continues to put him in bottom 3 anyways. Smh.

0/10 not enough face remodeler (Doc Fair)

Anyway is Doc really that bad of a character to begin with? He still has Mario's normals including the U-smash of kings.

From a completely biased standpoint, I know he's not that bad to begin with. The only normals that aren't objectively better are Dair and (arguably) Uair. I say this because Mario's kills and combos into itself while Doc's sets up Bairs, sets up tech chases, and is a potent edgeguarding tool with the back hit. Everything else is the same or better.

 

[RayNoire]

The only reason anyone would put Doc any lower than high tier is because Mario exists.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Doc's a character with some pretty ridiculous attributes (normals, OoS options, damage output, and his short hop game) held back significantly by having one of the worst mobility in the game.

I never believed he was bottom of the barrel in this game, but definitely not any better than low mid. When you have bad range on top of that mobility without something to compensate for it (fireballs *cough*) that's a death sentence unfortunately.

 

[Illuminose]

Marth's range isn't bad at all (it's really good), Sheik's forward air is just ********.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmm?



Oh. Would you look at that.

Marth's sword range is garbage on this game, disjointed or no. Falcon's Fsmash outranges his as well. This is one of the reasons i've started saying Lucina isn't really inferior to him as a character anymore. His tipper is strong but his range is ***. You're talking about spacing an attack that only just barely puts him out of range of typical other characters, and he loses strength and KB because of it.

Yeah, marth used to get points for even accidental tippers ending matches better than Lucina, but at this point her advantages vs. his disadvantages are working out to where i'm now asking if tipper is even worth it. Marth is maybe a frame or two safer on shield with tipper, but this is Smash 4 so that's pretty much irrelevant information.



but am i lying doe

You...do know this was true in other games right? CF LUNGES forward with his f-smash.

Its not a matter of pure range. Its body positioning as well.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Did we ever talk about how Boss went Doc in grand finals? And took out Snow's Sheik and came really close to beating his Fox?

Boss Doctor Mario is like, a pickup because he knows how to Luigi & Doc is closer to Luigi in some points than he is to Mario, but he's still not very good with the character.

 

[Sir Tundra]

honestly idek why people think doc is bottom 5 in smash 4. Sure he has terrible mobility and his recovery is sorta eeh but most of his normals have the exact same frame data with the exception of his dair. not to mention he has amazing OOS options and a pretty good short hop.

low mid? maybye. Bottom 15? possibly. but not bottom 5.

Did we ever talk about how Boss went Doc in grand finals? And took out Snow's Sheik and came really close to beating his Fox?

It's Boss what did you really expect?

 

[TTTTTsd]

0/10 not enough face remodeler (Doc Fair)

Anyway is Doc really that bad of a character to begin with? He still has Mario's normals including the U-smash of kings.

To add to this, his USmash is objectively better as it covers more range and kills like 20-30% earlier if your positioning is right.

It either kills on par with suboptimal postioning (maybe a bit later) but with decent or perfect, much earlier. His USmash is insane.

They should just do this to all of his moves that are equal to Mario's (Uair, Nair, and Dtilt come to mind). Might as well go full ham.

 

[Ffamran]

It does clank, Luma just clanks for that one instance and continues with the rapid jab. Only certain moves can beat it. I tested this a few weeks ago with Ike and only his ftilt seemed to beat it every time. Dunno about other characters.

Isn't that how transcendent moves work? Or is that clank, but continue to attack moves? Still, it seems kind of silly how a fluffy star is able to withstand a headbutt and claw from Bowser or sword slashes from Ike.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Just saw DA Wes ALMOST take out Zucco's Mega Man at SKTAR 4.

Really unique matchup, I'd love to see people dicuss it. Their match made it look almost kinda close.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth's range is actually fairly unimpressive in smash 4. Not that it's bad by any stretch of the imagination but it's nothing to write home about and many characters can challenge it without too much trouble. The range on his shield breaker is kinda ridiculous and tipper nair is pretty safe ... but that's about it.

Isn't that how transcendent moves work?

Transcendent moves don't interact with other hitboxes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Fox, Ness, Falcon, Yoshi and pretty much every top tier except Sonic and maybe Rosalina (uair and dair though) have amazing aerials

Sonic's nair that does 12% and combines to like 24+% when used after spin dash, his killing bair he spams as if he's brawl sonic. Fair is the only meh one.
Rosalina's silly nair and fair, and again her bair is her only meh aerial.

 

[Ffamran]

Transcendent moves don't interact with other hitboxes.

As I thought, but what about the clank, bust still continue moves? I know Ike's dash attack is like that and apparently, so is Luma's rapid jab. That or Luma's rapid jab refreshes faster than any other looping hit move.

 

[Lavani]

Luma is always airborne. Aerials that clank continue after clanking.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I might be heading up to my second offline tournament soon, and I might start playing up Link, Ganondorf and Little Mac as my characters. Does anyone have any helpful tips or hints for any of their match-ups before I head there?

I need some useful advice for once, so please tell me anything to help before I get there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's range is actually fairly unimpressive in smash 4. Not that it's bad by any stretch of the imagination but it's nothing to write home about and many characters can challenge it without too much trouble. The range on his shield breaker is kinda ridiculous and tipper nair is pretty safe ... but that's about it.



Transcendent moves don't interact with other hitboxes.

That has less to do with Marth and more with the epiphany Nintendo had when they realized everyone should be able to compete in footsies not just the Hero-King.

Which honestly was a good move from a game design point of view.

 

[Ffamran]

Sonic's nair that does 12% and combines to like 24+% when used after spin dash, his killing bair he spams as if he's brawl sonic. Fair is the only meh one.

Sonic's Fair would be godplayer if he had Falco's jump. Pikachu's Fair is already good, but imagine it with Falco's jump. Or hell, Fox's Fair with Falco's jump. The ability to throw out a lingering hitbox that low would make them even more oppressive. Zelda's Nair with a Falco jump would be stupid. Lesson of today: a Falco jump makes everything better.

Luma is always airborne. Aerials that clank continue after clanking.

Oh yeah... It's a star... Wait, then shouldn't Bowser and Luma trade? It was Bowser clanks while Luma continues to rapid jab. Yes, I know it's a single hit vs. a multi-hit and Bowser was falling back to the ledge, but Luma has a hurtbox and should trade with Browser's Uair and Fair. Against Fair, Bowser should be getting hit as his arm was still inside of Luma's rapid jab hitbox. Uair should bypass it because his head's intangible.

 

[Jehtt]

Just saw DA Wes ALMOST take out Zucco's Mega Man at SKTAR 4.

Really unique matchup, I'd love to see people dicuss it. Their match made it look almost kinda close.

You mean Wes' Samus? I don't think Zucco was playing the MU correctly at the beginning. He kept running straight into Samus' projectiles to, I assume, get a grab. Mega Man is a mid-range character in general but in that MU especially you want to stay at mid range. Samus doesn't have a good answer to Mega Man's projectile pressure. All of her own clank with a single lemon, except for a full charge-shot. Meanwhile, Mega Man's lemons and MB provide safe pressure from that distance since Samus can't really reach him.
He changed his style up towards the end and it's what allowed him to make a comeback. He started forcing Samus into an approach with Lemons but since her approach options are poor, he was able to keep throwing her off the stage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's a character with some pretty ridiculous attributes (normals, OoS options, damage output, and his short hop game) held back significantly by having one of the worst mobility in the game.

I never believed he was bottom of the barrel in this game, but definitely not any better than low mid. When you have bad range on top of that mobility without something to compensate for it (fireballs *cough*) that's a death sentence unfortunately.

Yeah, I can't pin him as Bottom 5 either. His good attributes make it really hard for me to do so, as you said. His mobility is what holds him back but I think it's mostly the lack of an outstanding/good projectile. If Pills had decent IASA he'd probably be a lot better.

 

[Rizen]

So I might be heading up to my second offline tournament soon, and I might start playing up Link, Ganondorf and Little Mac as my characters. Does anyone have any helpful tips or hints for any of their match-ups before I head there?

I need some useful advice for once, so please tell me anything to help before I get there.

For Link, bombs, bombs, bombs. Try to soft throw/Z drop them often to create active hitboxes on stage to limit the opponent. Pull a bomb after being side launched. Bombs combo into most of Link's attacks if Link can immediately reach the opponent so use them as chain starters.
Utilt is a relatively fast and safe kill move. Remember you can arrow lock hard falls that have the wobble animation. Dthrow combos into Utilt/Usmash from roughly 10-30% and it can combo into buffered dash>jump>Uair at some kill %s.
Nair/SH offstage (so you can recover if you miss) Dair>move under the ledge creates a lasting hitbox that exploits the ledge-snap vulnerability.

Good luck

 

[MistressRemilia]

So I might be heading up to my second offline tournament soon, and I might start playing up Link, Ganondorf and Little Mac as my characters. Does anyone have any helpful tips or hints for any of their match-ups before I head there?

I need some useful advice for once, so please tell me anything to help before I get there.

Practice Mario matchup before, every tour has its fair number of Mario mains, and your character coverage isn't the best, with Mario probably being able to **** on these 3

 

[BlastState]

This has been on my mind for a while, but are there any characters you guys feel are underrated as doubles partners? I'm inclined to believe that Peach and Ike are great for 2v2s.

On the other hand, I also wanna know if there are any characters that you believe do not fit the doubles metagame well. This would serve as some food-for-thought for me as I think about why some players use certain characters in doubles that they would never use in 1v1s and why some never use their singles mains in a doubles match.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Yeah, I can't pin him as Bottom 5 either. His good attributes make it really hard for me to do so, as you said. His mobility is what holds him back but I think it's mostly the lack of an outstanding/good projectile. If Pills had decent IASA he'd probably be a lot better.

Problem that i have is that i can't really argue with ppl that place him there with no knowledge of said character: It's hard to argue when the only thing they've seen is some fraudulent Doc secondary in the bracket of a tour who uses Dthrow Uair to nothing at Low% and then they think " Oh Doc has **** combos " which isn't true, or even give us some flaws that we don't have, it's kind of annoying and that's why i wish for someone to main Doc and show the best of his abilities.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Before I forget, @ Spinosaurus mentioned Doc's Fireball. I do feel the need to talk about this.

The IASA is legit garbage. It's not really an issue on Mario, he has the mobility to cover the IASA window pretty handily, but if we look at the old IASA (going by Brawl, I believe it was 43) compared to what it is now, which is 53, that's insane!

It's been in my head for a while but if Doc Pill had the old IASA the character would be ridiculously better. Think of the first custom move people bring up when they talk about optimal Doc customs, it's usually fast pill, all for the sole reason of space control. Vitamins have a really good trajectory in this game, the arc is basically perfect for stopping momentum to some degree.

If this had an actual plausible IASA (maybe 43 would be excessive, but like, I have no other number to pull out) they'd actually be very usable for space control and would help tremendously. In fact, compared to the bunch of other changes you'd need to make to have him be a lot better with the current pill, this would probably be like, the quickest fix possible.

 

[Radical Larry]

Practice Mario matchup before, every tour has its fair number of Mario mains, and your character coverage isn't the best, with Mario probably being able to **** on these 3

Well see, that's the thing. I practice the Mario MU with others, both offline and online, and the best Mario I fought couldn't beat my Ganondorf nor Link. But I might as well keep practicing.

Anything for the Sheik MU with Link?