Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[hypersonicJD]

Kinda off topic. But Mew2king is back for more Smash. And he's using Mario!

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

What did you think of Mew2king's and Day's team? I though it was solid and Day was getting pretty good KO'S.

 

[Macedonian]

Smashvile's floating platform allows shiek access to earlier kills that she simply does not have access to on battle or FD. Sure battle has the top platform but that's much more rare and easier for more charachters then sheik to exploit

I so don't agree with your synopsis on why campy shiek and meta knight are even. You can't just dash grab or sprint attack a shiek when needles block out horizontal movement basically. You have to be mid range to punish that way and no smart sheik will throw needles at mid range. They throw needles from afar and punish you if you try to get closser

Edit: I also got to celebrate a little bit, it's so damn hard to catch back up to this thread of you don't check for a few days, I'm finally caught up!

 

[Ghostbone]

Smashvile's floating platform allows shiek access to earlier kills that she simply does not have access to on battle or FD. Sure battle has the top platform but that's much more rare and easier for more charachters then sheik to exploit

Battlefield's platforms = easy tipper u-smash. (and she gets these far more than fair chains off the side using the smashville platform)
The layout is ridiculously good for sheik's pressure and strings/combos and what not too.

FD is just needles for days, you have nowhere to land, no way to get off the ledge vs Sheik, she can chase you all over the stage and you can't fight her on the ground.

I so don't agree with your synopsis on why campy shiek and meta knight are even. You can't just dash grab or sprint attack a shiek when needles block out horizontal movement basically. You have to be mid range to punish that way and no smart sheik will throw needles at mid range. They throw needles from afar and punish you if you try to get closser

"No way will sheik throw needles at mid range"

Well sort of, they're punishable at mid range so she can't use them to auto-win neutral like people here imply, she has to actually play footsies and everything from both characters in punishable if you get a read or outspace them or something. She's not an impenetrable fortress, especially when it's MK she has to keep out. Even if she wins the majority of exchanges, MK's reward is far higher than hers, so the overall risk/reward in the matchup tends to balance out and it's basically even.

 

[Cassio]

Metaknight is slowly replacing luigi as a more reliable, more respectable, most popular pocket. I still expect luigi to be a popular pocket character but these two seem to be the go to for less stressful sets when as a player you can go even or better in the neutral. A character like sheik and other good characters seem to require more dedication and effort, where luigi and mk are more reliable when youre playing off your game or want less stressful matches.

Also tangent, but pikachus bair annihilates sheiks fair, but its a risk to use. Less risky if they have a low shield since its good at shield stabbing.

 

[Ikes]

I think it's a fairly even matchup. Extremely stupid but even. It's basically a campfest of the worst kind. I can see why a ... non-campy player like Reflex would hate it.

this

a good tournament match I saw of this (with customs) is jeepysol vs Shadow/Arikie

surprisingly though they both played very aggressively

I've posted it here before but whatever

 

[Mario766]

Wait. Since when is a Sonic playing hit and run with Hammer Spin Dash considered 'Very Aggressive'.

 

[Illuminose]

j/s it's a little ridiculous to say that the Sheiks don't know the matchup considering that Mr R, ZeRo, and K9 literally live with Tyrant

everything @ Ghostbone posted is right, including stuff about stages

 

[Macedonian]

I can't watch this now I'm on mobile, but m2k did pull out mario (default) g5 in a customs tournament at the start of July verses a sheik, looked crisp as a hell

 

[Ikes]

Wait. Since when is a Sonic playing hit and run with Hammer Spin Dash considered 'Very Aggressive'.

when this game benefits defensive play so heavily that any amount of aggression from anyone outside pure rushdown characters becomes a surprising event

 

[Nobie]

Are people seriously falling into the same dumb trap of calling Smash 4 overly defensive, after months and months of continuous improvement towards aggressive play?

 

[wedl!!]

yes, because some people don't actually watch tournaments or attend them because they'd rather go on fg and play with scrubs who spam with link and zss

 

[Ikes]

"if they disagree with my opinions they must be scrubby FG players"

 

[Blobface]

Real Talk: The only reason anyone thinks Smash 4 is boring/defensive at this point is because Smashville and T & C have the most mind-blowingly boring music possible. Nothing gets the hype flowing like The Roost!

Also, question for ZSS mains: if you bait an airdodge in the middle of a string, could you punish with D-air to take you and your opponent back to the ground to "reset" the combo? @ Shaya and others

 

[Pyr]

"if they disagree with my opinions they must be scrubby FG players"

"It's my view so I have to be right, even if I don't offer any evidence or points to which discussion can be had. 1 sentence posts are obviously enough for a sweeping generalization. I'm right after all."

On topic: http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league
Ryu
Wake-Up Shoryuken gets you beat in SF4, but, in Smash, it is a legit option apparently.

 

[Xeze]

Real Talk: The only reason anyone thinks Smash 4 is boring/defensive at this point is because Smashville and T & C have the most mind-blowingly boring music possible. Nothing gets the hype flowing like The Roost!

At Smashcon, ESAM went to My Music on the stream setup and turned off all boring songs from Smashville and Town & City. Everybody should follow his example! SV should have like "Go KK Rider" and "Tortimer Island Medley". T&C is fine with "Bubblegum KK" and "Kap'n Song".

 

[Ikes]

remember: battlefield should always use the brawl theme or melee menu remix

anything else is heresy

 

[FullMoon]

I mean you can access My Music from the stage select screen so getting rid of the boring songs would probably take two minutes max from the tournament time.

 

[Xeze]

remember: battlefield should always use the brawl theme or melee menu remix

anything else is heresy

Multi-man Melee 2 is amazing. Too bad you have to unlock it.

 

[Ikes]

I mean you can access My Music from the stage select screen so getting rid of the boring songs would probably take two minutes max from the tournament time.

Anyone else think the music actually can affect the battle though? I notice when I play with lazier music I tend to wander off in my head. Probably just ADHD or exhaustion depending on what time it is, but I get kept on edge by louder, faster paced music

Multi-man Melee 2 is amazing. Too bad you have to unlock it.

Final Dest absolutely has to have Menu Melee V2 on max.

 

[Pazx]

If I went to "Find all content by Ikes" it would be a wonderful ****post compilation but right now this thread is pushing it. This is not a social.

 

[TriTails]

I wish 'His World' from Sonic 06 is in the 3DS game (Does Wii U have it?) or 'Knight of the Wind'. Or 'Adventure's End', 'Never Let up!' or 'Final Antasma Battle' from Dream Team. Those songs rock so hard.

But Pazx is right. This ain't no social.

Let me reiterate what I've asked before: Is Fox's MHS F-air + Footstool guaranteed? Because that can gimp at like 0%.

 

[Sir Tundra]

The only song's that should play in final destination are brawl's FD theme, melee menu remix 2, and That kick ass metal battle theme from melee.

anything else should be banned by law

Anyone else think the music actually can affect the battle though?

Any music in smashville makes me feel like I wanna sandbag

 

[Ffamran]

Got bored... Samus's jab 1, everyone. On shield, it's -13 and after shield drop, it's -6. No biggie since everything is bad on shield in this game. Samus's jab 1 has 2 different KBGs - I don't know where during the jab - of 80 and 100, so there's a slight difference in hit stun and on-hit data. For the 80 KBG, at 0% on Mario, it does 9 frames of hit stun, at 50%, it does 14, and at 100%, it does 20. This translates to being -5 on-hit at 0%, 0 at 50%, and +6 at 100%. For the 100 KBG, at 0%, it does 10 frames of hit stun, at 50%, it does 17, and at 100%, it does 24. On-hit, it's -4 at 0%, +3 at 50%, and +10 at 100%. Okay... I don't know how other 1-2 jabs are, but I bet they're better than hers. For 1-2-3 or 1-2-rapid-finisher jabs, that might be good. Also, bear in mind how fast Samus runs to factor in if she can actually run away fast enough against some at 50%, the Sakurai angle moving her opponent, button-mashing, delayed reactions, and other stuff.

Jab 2 is like this: on shield it's -20 and after shield drop, -13. For comparison, DK's jab 2 which does 6% and has total frames of 34 - the closest I could get to a 8% jab 2 with total frames of 29 - is -26 on shield and -19 after shield drop. Both hit on frame 6, but DK's jab combo hits on frame 5 and 16 - there's a 11 frame gap. For Samus, it's frame 3 and 17 - that's 14 frames. On-hit, those positives for her jab 1 probably means little after you factor in what DK's jab 1 does in terms of knockback, hit stun, angle... Continuing... Hit stun at 0% is 20 frames, at 50% is 34, and at 100% is 47. On-hit, that's -3 at 0%, +11 at 50%, and +24 at 100%. Samus's jab 2... Pretty good... If it does connect.

Also, why are we talking about music?

 

[Sir Tundra]

Got bored... Samus's jab 1, everyone. On shield, it's -13 and after shield drop, it's -6. No biggie since everything is bad on shield in this game. Samus's jab 1 has 2 different KBGs - I don't know where during the jab - of 80 and 100, so there's a slight difference in hit stun and on-hit data. For the 80 KBG, at 0% on Mario, it does 9 frames of hit stun, at 50%, it does 14, and at 100%, it does 20. This translates to being -5 on-hit at 0%, 0 at 50%, and +6 at 100%. For the 100 KBG, at 0%, it does 10 frames of hit stun, at 50%, it does 17, and at 100%, it does 24. On-hit, it's -4 at 0%, +3 at 50%, and +10 at 100%. Okay... I don't know how other 1-2 jabs are, but I bet they're better than hers. For 1-2-3 or 1-2-rapid-finisher jabs, that might be good. Also, bear in mind how fast Samus runs to factor in if she can actually run away fast enough against some at 50%, the Sakurai angle moving her opponent, button-mashing, delayed reactions, and other stuff.

Jab 2 is like this: on shield it's -20 and after shield drop, -13. For comparison, DK's jab 2 which does 6% and has total frames of 34 - the closest I could get to a 8% jab 2 with total frames of 29 - is -26 on shield and -19 after shield drop. Both hit on frame 6, but DK's jab combo hits on frame 5 and 16. There's a 11 frame gap. For Samus, it's frame 3 and 17, that's 14 frames. On-hit, those positives for her jab 1 probably means little after you factor in what DK's jab 1 does in terms of knockback, hit stun, angle... Continuing... Hit stun at 0% is 20 frames, at 50% is 34, and at 100% is 47. On-hit, that's -3 at 0%, +11 at 50%, and +24 at 100%. Samus's jab 2... Pretty good... If it does connect.

Also, why are we talking about music?

You mean everyone but sheik is but against shields.

Also were talking about music cause why not

 

[Smog Frog]

I wish 'His World' from Sonic 06 is in the 3DS game (Does Wii U have it?) or 'Knight of the Wind'. Or 'Adventure's End', 'Never Let up!' or 'Final Antasma Battle' from Dream Team. Those songs rock so hard.

But Pazx is right. This ain't no social.

Let me reiterate what I've asked before: Is Fox's MHS F-air + Footstool guaranteed? Because that can gimp at like 0%.

its in wii u but its a ****ty orchestral version(and not the final boss version; it's just like cynthia's theme in that it was originally great but it was butchered)

but yeah this is off topic, lets talk about exactly why isnt top 5 in most people's minds. also i want to know why the japanese rate so poorly

 

[Ffamran]

You mean everyone but sheik is but against shields.

Also were talking about music cause why not

Yeah, if Sheik Fairs perfectly or whatever, but if Sheik's a moron who does a Side Smash on shield, have fun with a dead Sheikah. Anyway, for the frame advantage thing, forgot to mention that you can be negative, but if you're at a safe distance because you hit someone far away, that's okay. I'm pretty damn sure Samus's jab 1 does not do that. For reference, Falco's Bair at 0% on Mario is -17. Yes, it's negative on hit, but it will smack you around because its knockback is absurd.

Also, for the music discussion... I am a mod; I will hurt you.

 

[hypersonicJD]

His World it's really dissapointing. Only the instrumental version. I would we so damn happy if it was the original song from 06. Or just even having What I'm Made Of. Seriously that song is even better than Live and Learn. Yes. I have said it. What I'm Made Of > Live and Learn.

But I don't really mind Smashville and Town and City music. They are good songs and I don't feel them boring. Just not really fitting. K.K Rider is epic though. So damn good for hype matches.

About Sonic not being in Top 5 I really don't know. Maybe since he has been getting nerfed people have been getting a bit less confidence on Sonic. Besides, nobody in their tier list actually speaks fully on Sonic. They always say: He just spin dashshes, gets 20%, shields and time out. That's it. Or maybe Sonic doesn't have enough results to be Top 5. I don't know.

I can't make an opinion of Ness because I really don't know how he does in Japan. He is really good and Top 5 easily. But I don't know how they play in Japan. Maybe they can gimp him really easily.

 

[Ikes]

its in wii u but its a ****ty orchestral version(and not the final boss version; it's just like cynthia's theme in that it was originally great but it was butchered)

but yeah this is off topic, lets talk about exactly why isnt top 5 in most people's minds. also i want to know why the japanese rate so poorly

I like cynthia's theme
but city escape>all other sonic songs with vocals

also It's probably just cause everyone above Sonic is simply better. He's #6 at this point, probably.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

remember: battlefield should always use the brawl theme or melee menu remix

anything else is heresy

Multi Man Melee 2 tho?

 

[Blobface]

@ Ffamran Would you be able to test something quick? Since it sounds like you can record frames of Hitstun, I'm curious is there's any sort of correlation, linear or otherwise, between damage and hitstun. Would you be able to test this?

 

[A_Kae]

@ Ffamran Would you be able to test something quick? Since it sounds like you can record frames of Hitstun, I'm curious is there's any sort of correlation, linear or otherwise, between damage and hitstun. Would you be able to test this?

Hitstun is knockback *0.4. Since damage is part of the kb formula, there is a correlation.

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Weight Based Knockback = ((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
g = Knockback Growth
s = Weight Based Knockback
b = Base Knockback

And then hitstun is, as I said, the result of that formula multiplied by 0.4.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran Would you be able to test something quick? Since it sounds like you can record frames of Hitstun, I'm curious is there's any sort of correlation, linear or otherwise, between damage and hitstun. Would you be able to test this?

Just using formulars.

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Weight Based Knockback = ((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
g = Knockback Growth
s = Weight Based Knockback
b = Base Knockback

Hitstun frames is the knockback value * 0.4.

Example: Marth's tipped forward smash hitting another Marth at 40%:

t = 40
d = 18
w = 90
g = 80
b = 80

Since it's not a move with weight based knockback, the regular knockback formula is used.

((((((40+18)/10+(((40+18)*18)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(80/100))+80) = 162.779

65 frames of hitstun.

For on-hit: it's (h-(t-s)) where h is hit stun, t is total frames, and s is startup. Also, shield stuff is through this: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm. Translated by Lavani: http://puu.sh/hUBGk.png. Enjoy.

Edit: 'd.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Yeah, if Sheik Fairs perfectly or whatever, but if Sheik's a moron who does a Side Smash on shield, have fun with a dead Sheikah. Anyway, for the frame advantage thing, forgot to mention that you can be negative, but if you're at a safe distance because you hit someone far away, that's okay. I'm pretty damn sure Samus's jab 1 does not do that. For reference, Falco's Bair at 0% on Mario is -17. Yes, it's negative on hit, but it will smack you around because its knockback is absurd.

Also, for the music discussion... I am a mod; I will hurt you.

hey man let's not get hasty

anyways it really is kind of sad how samus's jab 1 is so un safe even when it's in a safe distance as if her jab wasn't bad enough.

Most attacks when spaced are often safe.

Like fox's bair(such a good move btw) if spaced it can be used as a frametrap in order to hit someone with an up tilt.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Quick question: Why do people go to Smashville so much?

Good question, When I was watching a stream on Twitch (I think it was Xanadu). I asked a question as to why people kept picking Smashville against Shiek when it's her best stage. 90% of the answers I got was "Battlefield is Shiek's best stage" or "Ur a ****** for thinking that Smashville is Shiek's best stage". Yeahh....

EDIT: Because I don't know how to grammar.

 

[C0rvus]

I know we're in the post-EVO slow season, but is it so slow that we have resorted to My Music discussion? For shame.
Boss Battle Theme on BF is bae

Anyway, SKTAR is tomorrow and I haven't played the game in 2 days, and Nairo is in my pool. RIP the dream of making it into bracket. Not the biggest tournament of the summer, but it's got a lot of good players (Zero, Nairo, Dabuz, Nakat, Angel, False, DKwill, and a bunch of rising stars as well). So this thread had better be watching! Should be good footage ahead.

 

[MistressRemilia]

its in wii u but its a ****ty orchestral version(and not the final boss version; it's just like cynthia's theme in that it was originally great but it was butchered)

but yeah this is off topic, lets talk about exactly why isnt top 5 in most people's minds. also i want to know why the japanese rate so poorly

I gotta say, i kind of agree with Ness's placement in Japan, even through i'd place him a bit higher.
You see, in a nutshell, Ness is the defensive character who can punish you very well with , has one of the best out of shield in the game & the best killthrow of the game. And that's about it really, everything else about Ness is just not that good, his recovery is honestly much more exploitable than it looks, it's just that nearly everyone sucks at edgeguarding in this game so far, and we tend to choke in front of it, but honestly, it's nothing too tough to beat. It is also possible to outcamp Ness if your projectiles aren't all energy based, Ness's below average mobility doesn't help. Speaking of eventual good matchups, Ness isn't that hard to counterpick/beat either, and i don't feel like he has quite the MUs of a top tier.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Competitive Song Impressions thread confirmed

 

[webbedspace]

A long time ago someone changed Xanadu's stream setup so that Battlefield has SSE Boss Battle 1 on 100% and it's been stuck like that for literally months. Please, someone, anyone, put an end to this.

ON-TOPIC EDIT: Any thoughts about Robin's placement given how not-unimpressive Dath @ VSGC has been doing recently? (Watch two sets in a row, the second one very close.)

 

[Blobface]

For the record, the music discussion is technically my fault. Oops.

Anyway, something that I'd like to see talked about are "resets" where rather than going for an attack that would put the opponent away from you (usually guaranteed) you use an attack that takes them back to the ground (usually not guaranteed) to extend the combo further than it would go otherwise. A good example of this is Zero Vs Mr R at Evo, where you can see Zero go for a D-air a lot even when U-air would be guaranteed. Almost every single character can take advantage of this, so I'm really curious about what people think of it.

It's kind of hard for me to give much input on this because my main doesn't have too many true combos to begin with, and he hits so hard that him hitting you "too far to follow up" usually also means he sends you offstage, which is by far one of his strongest areas.

 

[Ffamran]

hey man let's not get hasty

anyways it really is kind of sad how samus's jab 1 is so un safe even when it's in a safe distance as if her jab wasn't bad enough.

Most attacks when spaced are often safe.

Like fox's bair(such a good move btw) if spaced it can be used as a frametrap in order to hit someone with an up tilt.

Samus's jab would be good if it had less end lag and that's saying something when it's on the spectrum of low end lag for a jab 1. Yeah... The major issue is its knockback which all right, it's like a jab, a real jab where boxers would poke, measure space, and put a hit out to get a reaction. Why is it bad in Smash 4, but not Melee or Brawl? Smash 4 is a different game, so why not fix it? It's problematic even with its intent of being a jab. Lower the end lag to something like Samus can act at frame 15 instead of frame 18. For reference, Fox's jab 1 lets him act at frame 18 and Link's used to let him act at frame 17 or 18. Wow, right? Wow, when theirs work because theirs have actual knockback unlike Samus's pitiful 3%, 8 base knockback, and 80 or 100 knockback growth.

Oh, and to make it worse, Little Mac's frame 1 jab 1 and frame 1 jab 2 both don't let him act until 22, but Little Mac can double jab to Dtilt just fine.

Starting here, welcome to your daily Falco rant. You will waste time starting... now.

Then there's Falco jab... People complained, I looked into it, and it's just gross. From Brawl to Smash 4, he gained 5 frames of end lag to his jab 1, 7 to his jab 2, and his rapid jab from checking Brawl and Smash 4, stutters a bit. Falco winds up like he does with Dair and Fair before his rapid jab registers as a hit - it looks like about 2-4 frames before he hits in Smash 4 compared to Brawl. Do you know what that leads to? That leads to what wasn't a true combo in Brawl into a untrue combo that if you so much as hesitate, a Luigi can grab you. That's death at like 80% and anywhere from a dropped combo to 40%. Why? What the hell was wrong with his rapid jab in Brawl that it needs to transition even worse in Smash 4? Also, bear in mind, they reduced the transition frames from 9 to 8 in patch 1.0.8 for Falco. Yeah, that 1 frame was very nice when his Falco Phantasm is 1 frame slower in startup in patch 1.0.8. What? Did you just take a frame and put it randomly somewhere else?

Falco was able to act at frame 16 for jab 1 and frame 18 for jab 2. In Smash 4, he can't act until frame 23 for jab 1 and 26 for jab 2. For his jab 1 to jab 2, it doesn't matter; his Brawl and Smash 4 jab 1 to jab 2 match up, but not his rapid jab. That kind of end lag leads to this. Assuming the same damage, knockback, and on Mario:

Move|On shield|Shield Drop|On-hit (0%)
Brawl jab 1|-12|-5|+3
Brawl jab 2|-15|-8|-1
Smash 4 jab 1|-19|-12|-4
Smash 4 jab 2|-22|-15|-8

In Brawl, Luigi was able to Nair Falco if he button-mashed while hit in mid-air and moved himself to the edge of Falco's rapid jab. In Smash 4, it can happen even if Luigi's on the ground since Falco's jab lifts people slightly up more. Falco's rapid jab isn't like other rapid jabs since he leans his entire body in while Fox, Kirby, Captain Falcon, and Little Mac just hit with their arms or legs. Then you have the Pits, Palutena, and Robin who rapid jab with disjoints. You can as Jigglypuff, DI into Falco so you're out of his rapid jab and into his body to Rest punish him. Or as Mario, Dr. Mario, Sheik, Luigi, and Sheik, Nair him if he decides to jab mixup. Marth, Lucina, Mario, and Dr. Mario can just Up Special him. Luigi's ability to punish his jab mixup is hilariously not funny. You decide to jab mixup, you're at 100%, and Luigi can kill you with a clean Nair because you picked an option Fox, Sheik, Triple D, Captain Falcon, Ike, Charizard, Kirby, Little Mac, DK, Marth, Ryu, Yoshi, Mario, and Luigi all do. Not only that, but if you hesitate while doing a jab combo or as what the game calls, a standard combo, you can get punished pretty damn hard. A standard attack/standard combo that all characters are capable and get punished. Marth, Lucina, Diddy, Ike, Zelda, Ganondorf, Robin, and even Fox's jab combos were improved. That leaves Samus as a top priority to make it function as an "incomplete standard combo" and make Falco's not be stupidly punishable.

Oh, and Falco's standing grab is frame 8... so he can't actually grab you from a jab 1 until frame 31 or frame 34 for jab 2. 1 frame earlier and you get Dtilt which is safer. In Brawl, with a frame 6 standing grab, he could grab you at frame 22 with jab 1 or 24 with jab 2. If he had his Brawl jab end lag and his Smash 4 standing grab, he'd be able to grab you at frame 24 with jab 1 or 26 with jab 2. In comparison, patch 1.1.0 Fox can grab you at frame 24 with jab 1 and frame 27 with jab 2. Pre-patch? He could grab you at frame 22 with jab 1 or 24 with jab 2. Just give Falco an end lag of 18 for both jabs...