Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Routa]

WFT's ability to aircharge definitely makes it the best in my eyes. Her animation for it is also somewhat inconspicuous.

I have no idea why on earth Samus can't aircharge her cannon.

Also... Praise the Sun!

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm not saying he loses to Falcon or Ganon. Idk if he does but both matchups are difficult. Even? Slightly [dis-]advantaged? I couldn't say at this point. But definitely matchups where you have to outplay your opponents. Same holds true for Ike, Marth, Shulk, MK and Mii Sword.

I do not consider TL and Link swordfighters in a strict traditional sense. Their game plan doesn't stand and fall with their player's capability of hitting you with the tip of their hitboxes. That said, they are both not easy matchups either. Wario generally doesn't have "easy" matchups except like Samus.

Shulk definitely isn't a difficult matchup for Wario considering he basically cannot KO Wario unless the Wario player makes an egregious error. Sword users for the most part aren't too difficult. Some of them are tricky, but certainly not on the level as some of the top tiers, and they all have abusable recoveries.

 

[Illuminose]

I've been of the opinion that Sheik beats Wario pretty solidly in the past, but Abadango (most likely the best Wario) has stated and shown that Wario can be used to counterpick Sheik and potentially be successful in the matchup. To me the matchup is very much a gamble on both sides. If you close the first stock without fart, it doesn't really matter what percent Sheik is at because fart = death at ~30%, so Sheik has to be EXTREMELY careful especially because it can take a while for her to net a kill. It's a hard matchup to judge but my perception is somewhere in the 55:45-60:40 range in favor of Sheik. It's dumb to call the matchup undoable by any means because it isn't.

 

[|RK|]

I know this isn't exactly the place... but a Pokken tournament is streaming, and I know there's overlap of interest.

http://www.twitch.tv/Pokemon

 

[Shaya]

Wii Fit's San Salutation charge also has a windbox that pushes you away. Quite annoying.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ROB seems to do pretty well against Wario from my experience but if you're not getting dthrow uair cheese or taking rather large risks off stage the matches suddenly get a lot longer and a lot slower.

I think Wario wins this matchup, slightly. It kinda works the same way it did in Brawl where Wario would just end up outlaming ROB in neutral and get in big time damage when ROB gets above him in the air. Now that ROB has improved KO capabilities the matchup is probably a bit closer but I still think Wario has it. If it comes down to it, Wario has time on his side.

Shulk definitely isn't a difficult matchup for Wario considering he basically cannot KO Wario unless the Wario player makes an egregious error.

Actually one of the big problems Wario has is that Shulk has a couple of moves that can randomly kill, especially with rage. Stuff like Fair, Ftilt, DA ... all kind of stuff that can threaten Wario with it's huge range. For Wario it plays out a bit like vs Ike [though I maintain that Ike and Shulk aren't really similar characters] except that Shulk's jab isn't that good.

Bread and butter stuff like mixing up dair / bite from above doesn't really work against Shulk becaus nair and utilt destroys both options so Wario is forced to camp it out.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I've been of the opinion that Sheik beats Wario pretty solidly in the past, but Abadango (most likely the best Wario) has stated and shown that Wario can be used to counterpick Sheik and potentially be successful in the matchup. To me the matchup is very much a gamble on both sides. If you close the first stock without fart, it doesn't really matter what percent Sheik is at because fart = death at ~30%, so Sheik has to be EXTREMELY careful especially because it can take a while for her to net a kill. It's a hard matchup to judge but my perception is somewhere in the 55:45-60:40 range in favor of Sheik. It's dumb to call the matchup undoable by any means because it isn't.

It's not unwinnable but it's bad. Abadango even picked up Meta Knight for this MU.

MK doesn't win it but I also prefer using him over Wario against Sheik.

 

[warionumbah2]

3 players who got top 8 at EVO, has a pocket mk now.

 

[bc1910]

As an aside, I don't think Greninja loses to Wario. It's a tricky MU since Wario makes us have to change our gameplan quite a bit to deal with his shenanigans. It's an annoying MU, but Greninja can deal with him just fine if the player knows what he's dealing with and adjusts themselves accordingly.

Waft is extremely scary though, but that's an issue everyone has with Wario.

Don't take this the wrong way but this post is pretty vague.

Can you give me some specifics on why you think Greninja can deal with Wario just fine? There may well be some things I don't exploit properly. This might be better suited to a MU thread but since we're discussing Wario and who he wins and loses against it might be relevant to other characters.

For the record I'm not convinced we lose to Wario but I think it's close.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I've been of the opinion that Sheik beats Wario pretty solidly in the past, but Abadango (most likely the best Wario) has stated and shown that Wario can be used to counterpick Sheik and potentially be successful in the matchup. To me the matchup is very much a gamble on both sides. If you close the first stock without fart, it doesn't really matter what percent Sheik is at because fart = death at ~30%, so Sheik has to be EXTREMELY careful especially because it can take a while for her to net a kill. It's a hard matchup to judge but my perception is somewhere in the 55:45-60:40 range in favor of Sheik. It's dumb to call the matchup undoable by any means because it isn't.

Its a gamble thats not in Wario's favor at all, there are two big if's at play, you mention the first, the second is actually landing the goddamn fart, which is really ****en hard and gets harder the more experience the Sheik has against you. Sheik doesn't even have to be "extremely" careful, she just has to not overextend and not be dumb while in disadvantage, she outspaces Wario that easily. The one thing you can do is go for the 1 frame of vulnerability on the edge when Sheik recovers, fart just below the ledge so that even if you mistime the actual fart you will hit with Wario himself as he flies upward. Considering how poorly most people know the matchup against Wario compared to how good people know the matchup against Sheik too.

The matchup is different with customs on, because of Rose Fart, which is actually really easy to land, charges faster and kills (albeit via edgeguards or at high % not like regular fart), even when it fails to kill it deals an insane amount damage to compensate. Unfortunately Abadango was not aware of this. IMO Wario in general is better with customs on because Rose Fart lets him beat zoners. Sword users become pretty easy with it as well.

 

[Teshie U]

WFT charge ball isn't the best imo. The heal doesn't matter a huge deal in most matches I'd say.

Mewtwo's is best imo, great power, low lag.

Obviously both of their kits benefit greatly from having this too. WFT is alot more resilient than Mewtwo so she benefits far more from the aircharge while disadvantaged.

Question for the knowledgeable folks around here @ Shaya sun salutation windbox apparently triggers Ness/Lucas healing vortex (heals for 0), can GnW absorb this?

 

[Deathcarter]

Lucario's Aura Sphere actually having a hitbox while its charging makes it the best charge ball imo. The ledge pressure + kill setups it provides is scary.

 

[Mo433]

I also firmly believe that Mewtwo has the best charge ball. It has great power, and depletes a huge chunk of your shield. The only one that comes close to comparison is Lucario at high damage.

Wii Fit Trainer's is also pretty good, but it doesn't have the kill power that Mewtwo's has.

 

[Routa]

Question for the knowledgeable folks around here @ Shaya sun salutation windbox apparently triggers Ness/Lucas healing vortex (heals for 0), can GnW absorb this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKgHkd2qYbc

Yeah WFT's does not kill that early, but in my eyes it is far better due to how versatile it is (and customs ones are really great). Mewtwo's is only a kill move and basically nothing els.

 

[Kaladin]

Via smart charging and avoidance, I regularly heal ~30% with my pocket wii fit's sun salutation. Tell me again how MewTwo's is better?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I also firmly believe that Mewtwo has the best charge ball. It has great power, and depletes a huge chunk of your shield. The only one that comes close to comparison is Lucario at high damage.

Lucario's aura sphere has a hitbox behind him while charging though, and a hit confirm from it can lead into a smash attack.

Honestly, I have no idea why they decided to take that away from Mewtwo. He had it in Melee and he could've really benefitted from it here to at least have something similar to Lucario's setups.

 

[Teshie U]

Via smart charging and avoidance, I regularly heal ~30% with my pocket wii fit's sun salutation. Tell me again how MewTwo's is better?

Its far more dangerous, and avoiding it can lead into other traps because its not laggy like other charge shots.

I'm not gonna say you can't heal 30% over the course of a campy match (WFT is a campy character), but I've personally gotten 14-20% over an entire match between both of her healing moves.

Healing 8-12% in a stock probably won't save your life even once when there are so many combos and hard hits. Small heals like this and wario eating items are cool, but they aren't as game changing as something like Robin's Nosferatu (can heal 100+ a game and pull you out of KO percents).

I think Mewtwo is missing the charging hitbox because he wasn't ported directly from Melee the way Brawl characters were. Maybe they just forgot.

 

[Sodo]

It's not unwinnable but it's bad. Abadango even picked up Meta Knight for this MU.

MK doesn't win it but I also prefer using him over Wario against Sheik.

Can you explain the MK/Sheik matchup? I see this gaining a lot of steam ever since Leo/Mr. R but I never really understood it. I feel like the whole matchup revolves around being able to convert dash attack -> uair -> SL, could you maybe give me a more in-depth explanation?

 

[Trifroze]

Via smart charging and avoidance, I regularly heal ~30% with my pocket wii fit's sun salutation. Tell me again how MewTwo's is better?

It kills ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All the charge projectiles have their strengths and flaws.

I'd pick Robin for the most useful one though. She has several versions for different situations and matchups including a short range version that's the fastest one for spamming out of all charge projectiles, one that travels a long distance and does 10.5% damage for just half a second charge time, one for shield pressure guaranteeing a grab if shielded from midrange and kill combos if it hits, and finally one that kills within decent percentages and has the fastest travel time and longest travel distance by far out of all charge projectiles. Drawbacks are limited usage and the final version takes relatively long to charge and is pretty weak, but honestly you're mostly going to be using the other versions, especially arcthunder. For those 8 seconds that you're charging it back you can literally just pressure your opponent with the book you dropped unless they're a dedicated rushdown character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can you explain the MK/Sheik matchup? I see this gaining a lot of steam ever since Leo/Mr. R but I never really understood it. I feel like the whole matchup revolves around being able to convert dash attack -> uair -> SL, could you maybe give me a more in-depth explanation?

Congrats on summing up a match in less then a paragraph.

 

[Sodo]

Congrats on summing up a match in less then a paragraph.

I knew I was good at this game.

 

[Jamurai]

Can you explain the MK/Sheik matchup? I see this gaining a lot of steam ever since Leo/Mr. R but I never really understood it. I feel like the whole matchup revolves around being able to convert dash attack -> uair -> SL, could you maybe give me a more in-depth explanation?

I'm not a super experienced MK but here's what I know.

It's not a terrible matchup for MK but Sheik wins if she camps. The reason why MK does relatively (<-- key word) well is that we can mix up our recovery a lot which helps with avoiding her edgeguards, and our multiple jumps and teleport help us deal with being juggled. Therefore she struggles to kill us while MK's combos and edgeguards get scarier and scarier with rage. For example, with rage Sheik dies from a dash attack at about 20% (iirc), and at higher %s DA or Fthrow to Up-B with rage will kill sub-100%. This sounds good but obviously her neutral is way better than ours and needles are pretty annoying, even if we can jump over them; MK wants to stay grounded ideally.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

ROB seems to do pretty well against Wario from my experience but if you're not getting dthrow uair cheese or taking rather large risks off stage the matches suddenly get a lot longer and a lot slower. Super Dthrow Uair Bros. is the truth, if your character has some way to reliably kill opponents who shield at the wrong time said character's viability is increased dramatically.



This is a dumb minor nitpick but Doc's OoS options are almost unrivaled in terms of how good they are while Ness has... short hop nair? Does grab count? I'm not sure what you were going for here.

Short hop Nair on Ness is incredible. It covers most anything with it's huge hitbox and it's frame 5. I'd kill to have that kind of option on DK. Also grab but everyone has that.

 

[Nu~]

3 players who got top 8 at EVO, has a pocket mk now.

What I find strange is why Mr.R has one...what's the point when you main Shiek?

And Abadango is going to be real upset when he realizes that meta knight doesn't go even with Shiek

 

[LightLV]

What I find strange is why Mr.R has one...what's the point when you main Shiek?

And Abadango is going to be real upset when he realizes that meta knight doesn't go even with Shiek

To avoid getting exposed in mirrors, duhhhh

Lucario's aura sphere has a hitbox behind him while charging though, and a hit confirm from it can lead into a smash attack.

Honestly, I have no idea why they decided to take that away from Mewtwo. He had it in Melee and he could've really benefitted from it here to at least have something similar to Lucario's setups.

In the back of my mind, i almost feel like the defining points of many characters just turn out to be emergent from little things the developers absolutely did not intend for.

In Melee, i felt like little features in attacks had alot of meaning. In Smash 4 though...no matter how many "conscious" balance tweaks we get, i always just look back at Samus and realize that, nah, i'm sure every iteration of smash is just a brilliant mistake.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKgHkd2qYbc

Yeah WFT's does not kill that early, but in my eyes it is far better due to how versatile it is (and customs ones are really great). Mewtwo's is only a kill move and basically nothing els.

That has got to be the weakest bucket spill I've ever seen. I wonder if it's equivalent to catching 3 min charge Salutations?

 

[Illuminose]

And Abadango is going to be real upset when he realizes that meta knight doesn't go even with Shiek

Except that MK does go even with Sheik, so...he's justified for doing the counterpick.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

What I find strange is why Mr.R has one...what's the point when you main Shiek?

And Abadango is going to be real upset when he realizes that meta knight doesn't go even with Shiek

Mr R probably uses MK as a counterpick character against opponents he is struggling to beat with sheik. Most people don't have much expirience in the MK mu due to him being rarely used until just recently, so Mr. R is probably taking advantage of this.

 

[Nu~]

Except that MK does go even with Sheik, so...he's justified for doing the counterpick.

Explain. Meta knight does not go even with a campy Shiek

 

[Kofu]

That has got to be the weakest bucket spill I've ever seen. I wonder if it's equivalent to catching 3 min charge Salutations?

That's an absolute minimum damage bucket. Depending on how much the uncharged balls do, they may be slightly stronger. Any bucket that has absorbed less than 6.5 damage total will give you that weak output.

 

[TriTails]

One half of the Smash community: Shiek
Other half of the Smash community: Sheik

I hate to be that kind of guy but the amount of wrong spellings for Sheik is ridiculous.

 

[Amadeus9]

Except that MK does go even with Sheik, so...he's justified for doing the counterpick.

Holy **** you are so ridiculous lol. How many times do we need to go over this?

 

[Nu~]

One half of the Smash community: Shiek
Other half of the Smash community: Sheik

I hate to be that kind of guy but the amount of wrong spellings for Sheik is ridiculous.

Oh, you get the idea

 

[Blobface]

Quick question: Why do people go to Smashville so much?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Quick question: Why do people go to Smashville so much?

Because no one ever strikes it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Mario766]

Because people are lazy and want to stick to what they know.

Even if they lose a set because of it.

 

[FullMoon]

People mispell Sheik so often it's pretty funny.

Doubly so if it's someone who mains her.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because people are lazy and want to stick to what they know.

Even if they lose a set because of it.

Fighting against a known Sheik main

Better go to Smashville game one. And then counterpick it when I lose. Despite it being her best stage. With her being the best character in the game already.

If you know you're facing Sheik and you go to Smashville, you're just not playing to win anymore.

 

[Ghostbone]

Explain. Meta knight does not go even with a campy Shiek

Yea he does

It's at least effectively even, the better player will be the one that wins. (it's not polar enough to be +/-1)

People have it in their minds that "campy" sheik is optimal sheik. Which isn't true, needles are actually **** for damage, they're mainly used to punish landings or options too far away for sheik to normally punish, and at high %s to force them off the ground for sheik to punish.

Sheik can be super safe with aerials, but she does no damage if she doesn't get her combos/strings going, which generally require you to be moving forward with the aerial. Plus applying pressure with sheik forces your opponent to shield more, which leads to grabs, which is where most of her damage comes from. If you're focusing on camping way too much then you're not putting pressure on your opponent, and they'll just outpunish you in the long term.

Definitely vs MK at least, if all sheik is going for is needles and small chip damage while trying to be super safe, she's just going to build up MK's % and likely die to rage up-air > up-b strings at super early %s. MK is one of the best characters at dealing with a campy sheik too because dash attack and dash grab give amazing burst mobility, and he has multiple jumps and a fast run speed to punish needles.


Also on the Sheik smashville thing, Battlefield and FD are better stages for her in many matchups, counter-picking her to smashville is dumb but striking to it is generally your best option.

 

[warionumbah2]

Its really hard to argue back when Sheik users are getting their ass whooped by MKs that matter.

Ally uses Mario against ZeRo's Sheik. Bodied. Uses The Hero King, gets bodied harder. Uses MK has a close game. Wait what.

Ito made Trevonte and Zex his walking pay check for months even during customs(Zex has yet to beat him he resorts to MK dittos).

Tyrant beat Vinnie(who beat him in losers), beat Larry's Sheik, beat Salem's Sheik.

Mr R beat K9.

That 14 year old kid....yeah. What next Salena beats Rain?