Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

Re: Rosalina's matchups, a weird thing to keep in mind is that, in certain circumstances, Luma can actually work against her. Which sounds counterintuitive as hell, but its mere presence as a hittable entity means Rosalina is basically always on the receiving end of hitbox extensions (Waft in particular is a big one she has to watch for), and since Luma can't shield or dodge she's also in the unique position of being unable to spotdodge and punish moves like Flip Jump or Bouncing Fish, since they'll just hit Luma and bounce away regardless. (This also applies to other attacks that "activate" on hit, like PK Fire.)

Bouncing Fish is definitely harder to punish with Luma, but Flip Jump? Easy when anything that triggers an attack but doesn't hit leaves ZSS vulnerable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Bouncing Fish is definitely harder to punish with Luma, but Flip Jump? Easy when anything that triggers an attack but doesn't hit leaves ZSS vulnerable.

It's admittedly been a while since I've faced a ZSS, but I remember having a hell of a time trying to punish her Flip Jump in the past.

Also the general point still stands, ZSS specific shenanigans aside.

 

[Djent]

He's probably right. The strongest argument at the moment is results, and Dabuz is pretty much the only Rosalina getting big ones. Haven't checked SHI-G stuff for Rosalinas though (if there are any). On the other hand, Pikachu only has Esam, Mario only has Ally and so on (maybe again Japan has some more though).

Kirihara and Ikep are both very successful with the character. They're not Dabuz-level, though Ikep did beat Ranai at the most recent Karisuma and Kirihara got 3rd at Umebura. Basically, Japanese Rosas have some stellar results but none are as consistent as Rain/Ranai or even Choco/Edge.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As far as Esam's list goes, I can't agree with Doc being the 2nd worst in the game, he's bad (I think the char is like, bottom 15, maybe a bit better at best) but 2nd worst seems like a bit of a push to me. Dude still has Mario frame data and a better USmash, but I do agree he's generally underwhelming to an extent (still not THAT bad though.)

Everything else is kind of agreeable and also based on opinion and stuff, I guess I just don't think Doc is really...well, THAT bad. But oh well, it is important to factor in his region with his tier list. Player experience, etc.

(I only secondary/funsies play Doc nowadays and I still talk about him.....the minute he ever becomes super viable, I know where I'm going...)

 

[Ikes]

is there anyone that solidly beats wario?

 

[Kaladin]

is there anyone that solidly beats wario?

Sheik is like 65:35.

 

[T4ylor]

is there anyone that solidly beats wario?

He really loses to Sheik, only wins with early Waft kills. I'd argue Dedede beats him and Sonic has an edge, but those aren't as bad as Sheik. Unsure about other losing match ups.

 

[Fuerzo]

My personal list at this point, if anyone cares (not in order horizontally, where it's merely alphabetical, only vertically). Customs off, ignoring Miis.

S:





A:







B:







C:






D:

 

[Rikkhan]

Dabuz tier list is ok, but ESAM tier list... so much bias haha.

 

[Spinosaurus]

is there anyone that solidly beats wario?

Sheik is a dumb MU. It pretty much boils down to whether you can land a waft at the right moment, which is way easier said than done.

I'd argue Dedede beats him and Sonic has an edge, but those aren't as bad as Sheik.

I'll give you Sonic...but Dedede?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Man is it "Top players make tier lists" season or something?

Abadango, ESAM, Dabuz, who's next?

My time to do that too, cauz i'm obv a top player :^)
Nah, seriously, i'm going to give my thoughts on some characters, i'm free to debate with anyone:

Toon Link: In the same mindset as Esam & his thoughts on Bowser Jr losing hard to shield, i don't think Toon Link is that good of a character because he struggles horribly vs Shield due to the lack of combos out of his shield. In a game where shield is one of the strongest options in an hilarious amount of situations, this makes characters like Toon Link struggles quite a lot. Another thing to take into consideration is that Toon Link's representation isn't really good.
Overall, i don't think Toon Link deserves his most common spot of Mid Low character due to how bad he loses to Shield, i don't know his matchups, so he may have a niche in the metagame by beating some Top/High tier that i'm missing.

Falco & Dr.Mario: I'm regrouping these two together because i believe they pack potential & niches that could make them worth your time for secondaries, but sadly, i feel like they both have 0 good player curently, or from the few players who play them at tours, are often missing a specific pros of the character.That's why i can't really blame when people put these two so low in their tier list. But one thing to Esam, it's not your fault if you don't know the full extend of Doc combo ability & call it mediocre, but calling Pills a bad projectile is just insane. They are essentially Fireballs that cover all short hops, how can you call that bad?!

Kirby & Robin: Both got a throw combo but the reaction of the community over these seems weird to me. Kirby loves its combo throw & its a great thing that he got this, because before, his throws weren't really threatening, he struggled a bit vs shield but now, one of his cons is off, ultimately making him better. His Fthrow is no joke for a combo throw either, working well at various % and has a lot of versatility, i'm really excited to see the future of Kirby.
Robin also had a combo throw, and to be honest... It doesn't sound that good of a combo throw. From what i've seen, the throw still has minimal hitstun, allowing characters to airdodge or DI Away or Jump away before Robin has a chance to combo you, i've also seen a bunch of cool things, but most of them were actually 50/50 rather than combos. It's nice that Robin fares better vs Shield, but he still has terrible mobility, relatively slow zoning, terrible grab range, loses most matchups vs rushdown characters.

 

[Ffamran]

My time to do that too, cauz i'm obv a top player :^)
Nah, seriously, i'm going to give my thoughts on some characters, i'm free to debate with anyone:

Toon Link: In the same mindset as Esam & his thoughts on Bowser Jr losing hard to shield, i don't think Toon Link is that good of a character because he struggles horribly vs Shield due to the lack of combos out of his shield. In a game where shield is one of the strongest options in an hilarious amount of situations, this makes characters like Toon Link struggles quite a lot. Another thing to take into consideration is that Toon Link's representation isn't really good.
Overall, i don't think Toon Link deserves his most common spot of Mid Low character due to how bad he loses to Shield, i don't know his matchups, so he may have a niche in the metagame by beating some Top/High tier that i'm missing.

Shields are issue for about 90% of the cast. Sheik gets away with it because her options are just so safe while the rest are often noticeably negative - so nothing like, -2, but more like -7 and worse - on shield even after shield dropping. Toon Link has Zan and someone in Japan... Manzoku? as noticeable Toon Link players. He's good when his Bombs land to set stuff up, but otherwise, he's pretty much like everyone else who get screwed over by everything.

Falco & Dr.Mario: I'm regrouping these two together because i believe they pack potential & niches that could make them worth your time for secondaries, but sadly, i feel like they both have 0 good player curently, or from the few players who play them at tours, are often missing a specific pros of the character.

Falco: Cyro, Keitaro, GimR, Zanryo, and Larry Lurr are the more notable Falco players. Of the 5, Cyro, Zanryo, and Larry Lurr know what they're doing much more than Keitaro and GimR. Issue with Keitaro is that most of the recent footage has him messing around with random stages at the Break... Kei... I... Keitaro's good, but he it feels like he trolls most of the time. GimR's more focused on Mr. Game & Watch and Falco's a secondary, but before the others, he was the most prolific Falco player. Unfortunately, that's just the United States. In other places, I have no idea.

Dr. Mario: Rice and Atomsk. Rice plays like 7 characters, so there's that issue... I don't really know Atomsk much, but he's really good at playing the game. When it comes to Dr. Mario, I don't know.

Now I'm curious, what would happen if shields only blocked in front of you like in traditional fighting games? Also, what would happen if rolls weren't immune to grabs? Probably chaos... I like chaos.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

As far as Esam's list goes, I can't agree with Doc being the 2nd worst in the game, he's bad (I think the char is like, bottom 15, maybe a bit better at best) but 2nd worst seems like a bit of a push to me. Dude still has Mario frame data and a better USmash, but I do agree he's generally underwhelming to an extent (still not THAT bad though.)

Everything else is kind of agreeable and also based on opinion and stuff, I guess I just don't think Doc is really...well, THAT bad. But oh well, it is important to factor in his region with his tier list. Player experience, etc.

(I only secondary/funsies play Doc nowadays and I still talk about him.....the minute he ever becomes super viable, I know where I'm going...)

Doc is weird. And people don't want to put time in a character that's similar to another one yet less viable (think Melee Roy).
That being said, you gotta ask yourself: what does Doc have on Mario? Most people say either "nothing" or "killpower." But let's be real.
Doc' OoS options are arguable one of the best of the game. (On the levels of and ). Up B has a meaty disjoint, kills, and comes out extremely fast (frame 3). Usmash is incredible and got buffed with an extra active frame so the hitbox covers his whole body (with his head being invincible). And Bair OoS punishes cross-ups with a powerful 13% killing hitbox that can be SH FF autocanceled. Nair OoS is another option that is good for catching opponents that he couldn't normally reach. So his OoS options are legit.
His edgeguarding is... pretty good. Tornado is active for a while and kills off the sides, which is good. Up B catches a lot of people with that incredibly large hitbox. Bair is good, Nair can gimp, Cape cheese, etc. etc.
But the real reason why Doc is in everyone's bottom 5: his combo game. People expect him to have some kind of Mario-like easy combos (Uair for days -> Bair off a Dthrow or something) but he just doesn't have that. What he has is a Bair that's safe on block, amazing OoS options, good edgeguarding, and improvised combos. I say "improvised" because when playing Doc I dont find myself thinking "If I utilt I can go for a string of Uairs!" like many other characters. I look at what they're doing, read their DI, an figure out what to go for. Off a grab I can Dthrow, Fthrow, Uthrow, whatever just keep em guessing. Jab Jab -> (who knows? You don't. Maybe the up B is coming. Maybe ill shield your frame 1 jab and go for a hard punish. Maybe ill grab. Maybe ill Jab 3. Etc.)
And that kind of playstyle requires you to become Ganon and not fight the character, but fight the player. Which is exactly the reason why he's bad.
And also the reason why he's my secondary.

 

[T4ylor]

Sheik is a dumb MU. It pretty much boils down to whether you can land a waft at the right moment, which is way easier said than done.

I'll give you Sonic...but Dedede?

Dedede's large disjoints really come into play in this match up since Wario doesn't have much range, nor does he have a huge reward once he closes in. Don't think it's any worse than a -1 for Wario. I know I'm not the only one with this opinion on the match up.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc is weird. And people don't want to put time in a character that's similar to another one yet less viable (think Melee Roy).
That being said, you gotta ask yourself: what does Doc have on Mario? Most people say either "nothing" or "killpower." But let's be real.
Doc' OoS options are arguable one of the best of the game. (On the levels of and ). Up B has a meaty disjoint, kills, and comes out extremely fast (frame 3). Usmash is incredible and got buffed with an extra active frame so the hitbox covers his whole body (with his head being invincible). And Bair OoS punishes cross-ups with a powerful 13% killing hitbox that can be SH FF autocanceled. Nair OoS is another option that is good for catching opponents that he couldn't normally reach. So his OoS options are legit.
His edgeguarding is... pretty good. Tornado is active for a while and kills off the sides, which is good. Up B catches a lot of people with that incredibly large hitbox. Bair is good, Nair can gimp, Cape cheese, etc. etc.
But the real reason why Doc is in everyone's bottom 5: his combo game. People expect him to have some kind of Mario-like easy combos (Uair for days -> Bair off a Dthrow or something) but he just doesn't have that. What he has is a Bair that's safe on block, amazing OoS options, good edgeguarding, and improvised combos. I say "improvised" because when playing Doc I dont find myself thinking "If I utilt I can go for a string of Uairs!" like many other characters. I look at what they're doing, read their DI, an figure out what to go for. Off a grab I can Dthrow, Fthrow, Uthrow, whatever just keep em guessing. Jab Jab -> (who knows? You don't. Maybe the up B is coming. Maybe ill shield your frame 1 jab and go for a hard punish. Maybe ill grab. Maybe ill Jab 3. Etc.)
And that kind of playstyle requires you to become Ganon and not fight the character, but fight the player. Which is exactly the reason why he's bad.
And also the reason why he's my secondary.

I know why he's bad. I called him a bad character for exactly that reason. But it's also why I don't think he's bottom 5 loool. I'd never call the character GOOD, I'm not a 3DS days version of me (I WAS tho! Used to be a madman).

I totally agree that Doc is about beating the player you're fighting, but like, I wouldn't put him on the level of Zelda linearity (and that's just largely personal opinion)

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think most characters with projectiles would murder Samus in a projectile war. Her super missiles don't kill on the edge at 200%, they need alot more than a damage increase. Priority on her projectiles are pretty terrible too. Mines dont explode on contact with enemies either.

Samus really should not be engaging in a projectile-on-projectile war. There are a few exceptions, olimar is one of them, but spam is definitely not optimal play. The z-air is used to negate many projectiles to get within tilt range where she does work. While the missiles definitely do need end-lag reduction in everyone's opinion (mine inclusive) they will likely never get the priority increase. It's not appropriate to have a character like duck hunt with tiny number of combos and virtually no kill setups have worse base projectiles than the character with hundreds of combos, and piles of tech chases.

In fact if i had to choose, i'd take pretty much anyone's neutralB projectile over chargeshot. It's STRONG, yeah, but it isn't anywhere close to good enough to warrant her moveset being the way it is.
Edit: And to be COMPLETELY honest....it's really not even all that strong, again for the weight it's given. I've been popped with that fullcharge over 100% and lived on plenty occasions.

Chargeshot's advantage vs. other neutral B in this game is its ability to true-combo. Basic combos deal 40 damage and the most advanced deal 60+. Despite the numerous drawbacks, such as not being able to charge in the air, Samus' CS is by far and away the best charge move. If you're living past 100 it's likely you had stage control or the move was very stale w/ no rage. That can be true for essentially any kill move.

 

[Spinosaurus]

One other thing Doc has over Mario is that his short hop is a lot better. Makes his BAir particularly good.

Dedede's large disjoints really come into play in this match up since Wario doesn't have much range, nor does he have a huge reward once he closes in. Don't think it's any worse than a -1 for Wario. I know I'm not the only one with this opinion on the match up.

Except Wario has no reason to approach in this matchup. D3 really cannot safely hit Wario without getting punished.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Shields are issue for about 90% of the cast. Sheik gets away with it because her options are just so safe while the rest are often noticeably negative - so nothing like, -2, but more like -7 and worse - on shield even after shield dropping. Toon Link has Zan and someone in Japan... Manzoku? as noticeable Toon Link players. He's good when his Bombs land to set stuff up, but otherwise, he's pretty much like everyone else who get screwed over by everything.


Falco: Cyro, Keitaro, GimR, Zanryo, and Larry Lurr are the more notable Falco players. Of the 5, Cyro, Zanryo, and Larry Lurr know what they're doing much more than Keitaro and GimR. Issue with Keitaro is that most of the recent footage has him messing around with random stages at the Break... Kei... I... Keitaro's good, but he it feels like he trolls most of the time. GimR's more focused on Mr. Game & Watch and Falco's a secondary, but before the others, he was the most prolific Falco player. Unfortunately, that's just the United States. In other places, I have no idea.

Dr. Mario: Rice and Atomsk. Rice plays like 7 characters, so there's that issue... I don't really know Atomsk much, but he's really good at playing the game. When it comes to Dr. Mario, I don't know.

Now I'm curious, what would happen if shields only blocked in front of you like in traditional fighting games? Also, what would happen if rolls weren't immune to grabs? Probably chaos... I like chaos.

It is true that most characters have problem with Shield, but some more than others, and i feel like Toon Link is one of them. I'm also aware of Toon Link's more developped metagame in Japan, but the metagame over there feels like it leaves a better chance to this kind of character ( Also See: Duck Hunt )

I was not saying these characters are lacking representation, i'm saying they are lacking GOOD representation. I'm not saying they are bad, not at all, i just feel that both of Falco & Dr.Mario's respective players are not using the character to its full potential & have often some elements missing.

Lastly, this shield & roll mechanics would be interesting to say the least, but yeah, chaos incomming haha

One other thing Doc has over Mario is that his short hop is a lot better. Makes his BAir particularly good.


Except Wario has no reason to approach in this matchup. D3 really cannot safely hit Wario without getting punished.

The better Short Hop allows us to have better matchups over the majority of small characters. In other matchups that we do better than Mario, the ones where killing is more important than ever come to mind, i'm not sure to find a better example than Lucario. There's also the few matchups where Tornado becomes very handy ( See: Sonic matchup, where Tornado beats Spindash, and RosaLuma matchup, where Tornado is one of the best moves to get Luma out quickly & efficiently thanks to our good knockback )

 

[Browny]

Oh look can we do this now, tiers determined when the results match the theory. Miis are allowed to use whatever they want.

Spoiler

S Tier (Can win tournaments entirely solo and has proven so countless times through many players)
A Tier (Can win tournaments solo, although only a tiny handful of people seem to be able to do it with any consistency. Too many cookie-cutter mains out there making some look worse than others like Luigi. Yoshi gets a special mention as a character with all the options but without a single top level dedicated main willing to pull it off. I am entirely confident if someone like esam does follow through can secondary yoshi, he will cement his place in A tier.)
B tier (Literally only one player of these characters seems to be able to compete at a high level. Those that do get great results but its hard to argue its not the player getting all their results instead of the character)
C tier (Characters that have solid enough theory to prove why they are good but are held back by criminally low representation. I believe they are viable counterpicks to some high tiers
D tier (You'll never find these characters used as a counterpick to anyone, but the few mains they have are at least doing something noteworthy either by getting top 8 somewhere, or being developed really hard. This tier is entirely messed up by Japan and how they perceive everyone.)
E tier (When someone does something noteworthy with any of these chartacters, please let me know. Honestly I'd move them up, I have just literally never seen it)
F tier (There's a reason why characters get low representation, and even if they have high representation there's yet another reason why you'll never see them on stream)

 

[Ghostbone]

SDespite the numerous drawbacks, such as not being able to charge in the air, Samus' CS is by far and away the best charge move.

Lmao
Wii fit trainer's is way better because it can be charged in the air, b-reversed in the air for mobility, comes out faster, heals her, etc.

Lucario's is better because aura, and the charge itself is incredibly threatening (beats every ledge option vs certain character's)

 

[Ikes]

He really loses to Sheik, only wins with early Waft kills. I'd argue Dedede beats him and Sonic has an edge, but those aren't as bad as Sheik. Unsure about other losing match ups.

Now I want to know how Dedede beats him. Maybe I'm missing something but there's no way that big disjoint is doing him as much good in this MU when Wario has pretty much the easiest time landing aerials and retreating unpunished out of any character. He could probably get in and land a fair before DDD's aerials even come out, though I really am probably missing something key.

Not to mention Wario absolutely ****s on sonic's approach, seeing as how chomp east every spindash and variation thereof sonic has and otherwise he has similar frame data, and KOs earlier.

The only MUs I think Wario has a significantly bad time in (worse than 55:45/60:40) are Sheik, ZSS, Maybe Greninja, and Mario. I cant think of anyone else that solidly beats him. Pika might be 55:45 at worst, Ness could very well be Wario advantage (havent played that one very much), Rosalina is just a tasty garlic meal imho, Luigi loses to Wario (The plumbers have a neat RPS MU spread: Luigi>Mario>Wario>Luigi), and I dont see anyone else thats very relevant to talk about in this discussion.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Lmao
Wii fit trainer's is way better because it can be charged in the air, b-reversed in the air for mobility, comes out faster, heals her, etc.
Lucario's is better because aura, and the charge itself is incredibly threatening (beats every ledge option vs certain character's)

The sun salutation comes out in 24 frames. CS is 16. That's why you can't combo with it, so no, it definitely does not come out faster, you need a hard read.
It's also 18 damage and can't kill most standing targets on the edge at 100%.
Lucarios sphere likewise, 19 frames. To my knowledge he has 1 combo out of it - but I could be wrong, haven't looked in awhile at that subforum. Lucario aura takes him till 150% damage to get 25 damage on the sphere and it similarly does not kill at 100%. It can be stopped/clanked/beaten by a plethora of moves before he gets to 100% damage.
Literally just load training mode on an omega, take a target like ROB, set damage to 100% and shoot. There's no rage but there is aura - it's not even close. It takes less than a minute to see this.
Neither of these moves you listed are bad, they're even good, but I stand by my gun, they're not even close. Samus has many issues, CS is not one of them.

 

[Ffamran]

One other thing Doc has over Mario is that his short hop is a lot better. Makes his BAir particularly good.

People should emulate the wise Seagull and his Wolf: Bair. Just Bair. Just do it! Bair everything. Make your dreams come true! BAIR! Seriously, Dr. Mario's game should be 80% Bair and 20% actually playing. Yes, I am very biased to Bairs.

I was not saying these characters are lacking representation, i'm saying they are lacking GOOD representation. I'm not saying they are bad, not at all, i just feel that both of Falco & Dr.Mario's respective players are not using the character to its full potential & have often some elements missing.

Falco does have good representation, but the best player of Falco not the best player is a 14 year-old named Cyro. He's good, but he's still young. He's our own Tweek and Nairo except like 2-3 years younger than Tweek and maybe Nairo when he started. I don't know his tournament history, but let's say he's someone who does have a decent history with going to tournaments, but not someone like Larry Lurr, Keitaro, or GimR who go to tournaments weekly. The best player, but not the best Falco is probably Larry Lurr.

For Dr. Mario, Rice doesn't play seriously; he plays for fun. That enough makes you question what would happen if he was serious since he's good. Atomsk is there, but like I said, he's good at the game, but he's probably missing key Dr. Mario things that could make him a much better Dr. Mario.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot for the lesser used characters... The best Peach in my opinion, is Dark.Pch and that's been a thing since Melee, apparently. I think he just doesn't go to tournaments a lot, so the best player who plays Peach could be anyone from lloD, SlayerZ, Gluten, or even False. I think this is also happening to the Pits. Nairo's the best player who plays them, but Earth's the best Pit. It's when someone's the best player of a character and a best player when things are really awesome like ESAM is the best player of Pikachu and a best player overall or Ally and his Mario, Tweek and his Bowser Jr., or Sol and his Little Mac.

 

[MistressRemilia]

People should emulate the wise Seagull and his Wolf: Bair. Just Bair. Just do it! Bair everything. Make your dreams come true! BAIR! Seriously, Dr. Mario's game should be 80% Bair and 20% actually playing. Yes, I am very biased to Bairs.


Falco does have good representation, but the best player of Falco not the best player is a 14 year-old named Cyro. He's good, but he's still young. He's our own Tweek and Nairo except like 2-3 years younger than Tweek and maybe Nairo when he started. I don't know his tournament history, but let's say he's someone who does have a decent history with going to tournaments, but not someone like Larry Lurr, Keitaro, or GimR who go to tournaments weekly. The best player, but not the best Falco is probably Larry Lurr.

For Dr. Mario, Rice doesn't play seriously; he plays for fun. That enough makes you question what would happen if he was serious since he's good. Atomsk is there, but like I said, he's good at the game, but he's probably missing key Dr. Mario things that could make him a much better Dr. Mario.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot for the lesser used characters... The best Peach in my opinion, is Dark.Pch and that's been a thing since Melee, apparently. I think he just doesn't go to tournaments a lot, so the best player who plays Peach could be anyone from lloD, SlayerZ, Gluten, or even False. I think this is also happening to the Pits. Nairo's the best player who plays them, but Earth's the best Pit. It's when someone's the best player of a character and a best player when things are really awesome like ESAM is the best player of Pikachu and a best player overall or Ally and his Mario, Tweek and his Bowser Jr., or Sol and his Little Mac.

Can you show me a set of Cyro? I'm really interested to see that

 

[Nobie]

Would anyone be able to explain to me why Mewtwo has such a bad ledge getup? Is it just his size, or is there something up with his frame data?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Would anyone be able to explain to me why Mewtwo has such a bad ledge getup? Is it just his size, or is there something up with his frame data?

He has almost no invincibility when getting up from the ledge.

 

[Asdioh]

Man is it "Top players make tier lists" season or something?

Abadango, ESAM, Dabuz, who's next?

More importantly, why do people keep making videos of these things? Are they getting money from youtube? I never watch these 20 minute videos, when it could be put into text form that I could read in less than a minute.

About Rosalina... she's really good, and is a poorly designed piece of garbage (no offense) but I wouldn't be surprised if Sheik/ZSS/Pikachu/Fox/Ness/Sonic/Diddy etc. are actually better than her. It's hilariously easy to KO Luma, and Rosalina's recovery is actually pretty bad, and people aren't taking advantage of it often enough. She also doesn't have the overwhelming speed most of the best characters have. Still definitely top tier, but most likely isn't top 3-4 imo. But seriously Luma shouldn't be hitting me out of my combos or attacking when flying across the screen to Rosalina, and Gravitational Pull needs some kind of cooldown

Uhh what else was I going to say... uhhh buff Samus yes please.. oh right, Diddy Kong with a banana in his hand is still probably the best character in the game. Like, all you need to do is run around and you're putting out so much pressure.
Also Kirby ducks under all of Ryu's significant moves and I wonder what EL thinks of that matchup, which will almost never happen in tournaments. Until Kirby gets buffed with more airspeed and an Upthrow that kills roughly equal to Charizard's, and then becomes a high tier character.

 

[ARGHETH]

The sun salutation comes out in 24 frames. CS is 16. That's why you can't combo with it, so no, it definitely does not come out faster, you need a hard read.
It's also 18 damage and can't kill most standing targets on the edge at 100%.
Lucarios sphere likewise, 19 frames. To my knowledge he has 1 combo out of it - but I could be wrong, haven't looked in awhile at that subforum. Lucario aura takes him till 150% damage to get 25 damage on the sphere and it does not kill at 100%. It can be stopped/clanked/beaten by a plethora of moves before he gets to 100% damage.
Neither of these moves you listed are bad, they're even good, but I stand by my gun, they're not even close.

If Thunder counts as a CS, then it's definitely better. It has multiple types, each having their own uses, and Arcthunder in particular leads to combos that can rack up damage. Thoron is quick, crosses the stage almost instantly, and does 18%.
Also, what about Shadow Ball?

 

[Nobie]

Edit: Whoops quoted myself. Re: Mewtwo having no ledge getup invincibility:

That seems like a strange oversight when most characters have tons of invincibility. Is it supposed to balance him out or something?

 

[Ffamran]

Can you show me a set of Cyro? I'm really interested to see that

Usually, Cyro's something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulZuC1i4-bc. This is from the latest uploaded footage of a tournament he's been in. Latest video on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPKFrScn-k0.

First time on stream is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ5CKRDh5nU. He's the one not wearing a hat. This was during VoiD's visit and Cyro was able to get a game on him... Match was never streamed, though... Taunt was also a mis-input from what he said. In the same tournament, Larry's Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc5y9Ppxquo. Challonge: http://challonge.com/fadsodysingles_6.

Then you have Ally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c09dysUbg... Ally doesn't even play Falco and you see this dude with clean play and you start to wonder... You really start to wonder how Ally is able to do this while other players spend so much time and aren't as crisp.

Oh, and Reflex has a Falco and it's really hilarious what happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvk5uZ1CKis. I love the commentators' reactions even though Reflex says they're annoying. You ask for 1 set and I give you 5 with 4 separate players.

 

[Nobie]

I know this isn't supposed to be the "suggest unreasonable/unrealistic buffs" thread, but I've always really wished that Ganondorf would get a teleport. Being as heavy as he is, he's supposed to benefit from Rage and just living a long time, but having a predictable recovery just puts a damper on that. If he had like, just a Palutena-level teleport, it'd go a long way in mixing up his recovery, AND it would be accurate to character lore. After all, Ganondorf/Ganon is all about disappearing and reappearing since the very first Zelda game.

I might also suggest giving him the ability to attack out of teleport PM Mewtwo style (with some restrictions) because that would also allow him to basically have a very specific type of burst speed, but that would probably be going too far.

 

[|RK|]

I know this isn't supposed to be the "suggest unreasonable/unrealistic buffs" thread, but I've always really wished that Ganondorf would get a teleport. Being as heavy as he is, he's supposed to benefit from Rage and just living a long time, but having a predictable recovery just puts a damper on that. If he had like, just a Palutena-level teleport, it'd go a long way in mixing up his recovery, AND it would be accurate to character lore. After all, Ganondorf/Ganon is all about disappearing and reappearing since the very first Zelda game.

I might also suggest giving him the ability to attack out of teleport PM Mewtwo style (with some restrictions) because that would also allow him to basically have a very specific type of burst speed, but that would probably be going too far.

That would be obscene lol.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf's recovery reaaaaaaaaaaally isn't that bad. It's not good by any means, but as long as he saves his DJ, he's pretty much average.

 

[Sir Tundra]

A bit late to say this but it must be said

If theirs one thing I can't with esam in his tier list vid is what he say's that theirs 50 viable character's out of 55 character's

Now I'm not saying that I know more then Esam but saying that 50 characters being viable which is way too much of a stretch.

I mean smash 4 is probably the most balanced game but that doesn't mean that almost every character except for 5 characters are viable cause that simply is not true.

Imo there's 20 competitive viable character's, 10 semi viable characters, and that's it.

I know some people are probably gonna disagree with this but what you gonna do.

 

[ARGHETH]

A bit late to say this but it must be said

If theirs one thing I can't with esam in his tier list vid is what he say's that theirs 50 viable character's out of 55 character's

Now I'm not saying that I know more then Esam but saying that 50 characters being viable which is way too much of a stretch.

I mean smash 4 is probably the most balanced game but that doesn't mean that almost every character except for 5 characters are viable cause that simply is not true.

Imo there's 20 competitive viable character's, 10 semi viable characters, and that's it.

I feel like there's a bit more than that. I think of being "viable" as having a fair shot at placing high/winning a tournament, and while the number's a lot less than 50, to me it's higher than just 20. Maybe 25 or so viable characters

I know some people are probably gonna disagree with this but what you gonna do.

...Answer your post on the thread that you posted on?

 

[Sir Tundra]

I feel like there's a bit more than that. I think of being "viable" as having a fair shot at placing high/winning a tournament, and while the number's a lot less than 50, to me it's higher than just 20. Maybe 25 or so viable characters


...Answer your post on the thread that you posted on?

No i meant that people are probably disagree with my statement on being 20 competitively character's and 10 semi viable.

to me their are 2 types of viable .. competitive viable characters are character's who are seen alot in tourney and place amazing in tourneys by themselves. how ever semi viable character's are character's who could place high/win a tournament but would require the use of a secondary to do well against most high tier matchups.

their could be 25 viable characters though you may never know

 

[bc1910]

This is why I think it's good to keep an eye on the Pits' future. Word of god says the angel boys are pretty much immune to balance patches (save for an unexpected buff in 1.1.0); in a game where a character's viability can be reassessed every two months, that's a decent way to be.

There's consistency to the characters which I hope more top-level players continue to explore. You know where you stand with the Pits.

It's actually been very rare for a character's viability to change with a patch. The only clear cut case of it happening is Greninja going from viable to unviable after the 1.0.4 nerfs.

There are a few arguable cases such as Ike, Marth, Greninja and Meta Knight becoming viable but they all depend on your point of view. Many would say the former 3 still aren't viable (though they are starting to agree on Ike and to a lesser extent Greninja) and I think MK was always good, but people overreacted to his Brawl nerfs and slept on him for months. Sure, he became more viable with buffs, but he was never unviable. All the stuff people cite as being strong like dash attack and strings off the top have never changed.

Now I want to know how Dedede beats him. Maybe I'm missing something but there's no way that big disjoint is doing him as much good in this MU when Wario has pretty much the easiest time landing aerials and retreating unpunished out of any character. He could probably get in and land a fair before DDD's aerials even come out, though I really am probably missing something key.

Not to mention Wario absolutely ****s on sonic's approach, seeing as how chomp east every spindash and variation thereof sonic has and otherwise he has similar frame data, and KOs earlier.

The only MUs I think Wario has a significantly bad time in (worse than 55:45/60:40) are Sheik, ZSS, Maybe Greninja, and Mario. I cant think of anyone else that solidly beats him. Pika might be 55:45 at worst, Ness could very well be Wario advantage (havent played that one very much), Rosalina is just a tasty garlic meal imho, Luigi loses to Wario (The plumbers have a neat RPS MU spread: Luigi>Mario>Wario>Luigi), and I dont see anyone else thats very relevant to talk about in this discussion.

I think Wario is one of Greninja's worst MUs.

A brief analysis: Wario's extremely hard to hit because he can hover in Greninja's deadzone which is the air in front of him, where the only option Greninja has is a pretty unsafe Usmash. Bike totally nullifies shuriken camping and forces them to be used more sporadically than is ideal, and pure camping fails anyway because it gives Wario his fart. Wario is heavy and practically impossible to edgeguard which lets him live forever against Greninja. Finally Wario can abuse Greninja's poor out of shield game with his amazing air mobility making it easy for him to hit with crossup landing aerials.

This MU has improved with the new patch however and you may have had a different experience. I'd be interested to hear why you think this MU may be bad for Wario.

 

[Kofu]

The sun salutation comes out in 24 frames. CS is 16. That's why you can't combo with it, so no, it definitely does not come out faster, you need a hard read.
It's also 18 damage and can't kill most standing targets on the edge at 100%.
Lucarios sphere likewise, 19 frames. To my knowledge he has 1 combo out of it - but I could be wrong, haven't looked in awhile at that subforum. Lucario aura takes him till 150% damage to get 25 damage on the sphere and it similarly does not kill at 100%. It can be stopped/clanked/beaten by a plethora of moves before he gets to 100% damage.
Literally just load training mode on an omega, take a target like ROB, set damage to 100% and shoot. There's no rage but there is aura - it's not even close. It takes less than a minute to see this.
Neither of these moves you listed are bad, they're even good, but I stand by my gun, they're not even close. Samus has many issues, CS is not one of them.

I think in flexibility Aura Sphere definitely beats Charge Shot, particularly at high aura. Being able to charge it in the air is huge. Sun Salutation is in a similar boat but since it's consistently weaker and lacks the charging hitbox that Aura Sphere has I can't say with certainty that it's better (the healing makes it unique though). Shadow Ball is comparable in power to Charge Shot IIRC and being able to charge it in the air gives Mewtwo more time to charge. I'm not sure if it can charge cancel like the other two though.

 

[TriTails]

Ganondorf's recovery reaaaaaaaaaaally isn't that bad. It's not good by any means, but as long as he saves his DJ, he's pretty much average.

'Average' means 'good'.

And you can say that to about 95% of the cast.

Ganon can't even recover if he got semi-spiked a certain distance away.

It's bad, really.

But seriously Luma shouldn't be hitting me out of my combos or attacking when flying across the screen to Rosalina, and Gravitational Pull needs some kind of cooldown.

It's actually when Little Mac got rekt in his first stock, and then just proceed to train through things including but not limited to your charged U-smash, F-tilt, Luigi Cyclone, Ganon's D-air, jab because it's quick and you want to use it but no, etc with his lagless SA smash attacks that deal absurd knockback and cover tons of ground and completely negates your dashgrab because range and then finally smashing you outta stage. Then you question life after he taunts twice after every stock taken.

I understand his ground game is supposed to be the best but I find those dumb. But meh. I better git gud myself.

 

[Ikes]

It's actually been very rare for a character's viability to change with a patch. The only clear cut case of it happening is Greninja going from viable to unviable after the 1.0.4 nerfs.

There are a few arguable cases such as Ike, Marth, Greninja and Meta Knight becoming viable but they all depend on your point of view. Many would say the former 3 still aren't viable (though they are starting to agree on Ike and to a lesser extent Greninja) and I think MK was always good, but people overreacted to his Brawl nerfs and slept on him for months. Sure, he became more viable with buffs, but he was never unviable. All the stuff people cite as being strong like dash attack and strings off the top have never changed.



I think Wario is one of Greninja's worst MUs.

A brief analysis: Wario's extremely hard to hit because he can hover in Greninja's deadzone which is the air in front of him, where the only option Greninja has is a pretty unsafe Usmash. Bike totally nullifies shuriken camping and forces them to be used more sporadically than is ideal, and pure camping fails anyway because it gives Wario his fart. Wario is heavy and practically impossible to edgeguard which lets him live forever against Greninja. Finally Wario can abuse Greninja's poor out of shield game with his amazing air mobility making it easy for him to hit with crossup landing aerials.

This MU has improved with the new patch however and you may have had a different experience. I'd be interested to hear why you think this MU may be bad for Wario.

I was just speculating and I didnt know too much about greninja other than basic stuff (I dont even remember what his dsmash even looks like tbh)

If you think it's bad for greninja then you being more educated on the subject, I guess I'll have to believe you. I didn't realize that Wario had that kind of anti-greninja toolset. Thanks for the input, man