Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Minordeth]

Ryu's meta will take forever to develop without those heavy hitters. I mean, Emblem Lord's stuff over in the Ryu boards works wonders, and it made me take a step up in my own Ryu play. However, characters need more than one rep with regional presence pushing their meta. If Trela decides to stick with Ryu, it would be a huge boon, given his high level of competency.

I don't know what heavy hitters are pushing the Roy or Pit meta. I know Earth is pushing Pit over in Japan, and he is rather good, but Japan has a different meta by default. Nairo, as good as he is, seems to pick Pit when he wants to let his fundamentals take over to even out any unfavorable MUs for ZSS. He doesn't really push the Pit meta like a dedicated player would.

I have no idea who is pushing Roy in a regional and above environment, though. I haven't seen Pwii or Sethlon play yet, so I don't know how their respective Roy play differs from the "CF with a sword" gameplan most Roy's pull.

 

[Wintropy]

I did specify "international" when I mentioned Nairo.

Unless Earth goes to tourneys outside of Japan, in which case, fair go.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When I get back to SKTAR's venue later today I gotta remember to ask 6WX if he is going to push Ryu or not. 9B is using Ryu as well but as stated Japan's meta is a bit different.

Still it only takes maybe 2 or 3 good players and 1 scientist to push a character imo.

 

[Wintropy]

I think Nairo keeps Pit as a pocket more than anything. He rarely uses him in serious matches, I don't think he's ever broken him out in finals for a major.

I know Pink Fresh used to play Pit, pretty sure he dropped him. Or at least doesn't use him seriously anymore.

So in answer to your question, no, there isn't anybody advancing the Pit meta as it stands. @LancerStaff is our resident scientist, but I don't think he enters tourneys (you can ask him yourself); @CHOMPY used to routinely attend locals with Pit and got decent results, but I haven't seen him in quite a while.

There's a Pit player in the Irish top ten, which is nice. It means nothing in the wider context of competitive Smash, but it's nice that somebody somewhere gets results with the angel boys.

 

[Noa.]

Pink fresh used pit in tournament a couple weeks ago against Llod.

And Nairo has used pit a couple times in the top 8 of nationals. He defeated MVD with Pit, and took out pit against Esam.

Pit is a good character. He's just the worst good character and he takes a bit of effort to use.

 

[Wintropy]

Pink fresh used pit in tournament a couple weeks ago against Llod.

And Nairo has used pit a couple times in the top 8 of nationals. He defeated MVD with Pit, and took out pit against Esam.

Pit is a good character. He's just the worst good character and he takes a bit of effort to use.

Well blow the man down. There's hope yet!

I don't think Pit really takes much effort to use, be frank. He's pretty intuitive when you get the fundamentals down. The concern is that he can't just cheese his way to victory or flex his muscles to win, you need to be on top of your game at all times.

Said it before, say it again: an extreme matchup for Pit is, for better or for worse, 60:40. It goes both ways, mind you, which means there comes a point at which you just have to get your head down and work your fundamentals. If you mean it takes effort to use him full-time, I agree. You really need to be good at the game to be good with Pit.

 

[Zannabluke]

pink fresh is getting a wii u next week, his pit was just a temporary main until he could have properly trained with lucas. he could still use him as a solid secondary tho

 

[Noa.]

Yeah I didn't mean technical effort. I meant that Pit doesn't really get a lot of free damage, and he also doesn't have a way to end a stock early. Most top tiers have really high knockback moves that can KO early. Zss has boost kick and flip jump, rosa has uair crap, pika has gimps and sweet spot Thunder, ness has pkt2 and fsmash. Just moves that allow you to clutch it out against an opponent and win.

I also am thinking higher and higher of Peach. I've always though she was decent and like border line, but this week SlayerZ beat Vinnie in a best of five and then K9 twice in a best of five. Someone is finally starting to take large names with her.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well for folks asking about a tier list, we could always do something kinda like this.

Spoiler

I didn't make the picture (obviously it's crap quality) but this could be a lot more easily adjusted and discussed a bit. Maybe make it a bit easier to "place" characters if you will. Just something I figured I'd bring up.

Also, anyone have any idea when SKTAR is gonna be streaming? With no schedule I can find anywhere I'm scared I'll miss it

 

[Ffamran]

Man, looking at Kirby's air speed and run speed is so depressing. It's the most important buff we've been needing this whole time, but Nintendo seems unwilling to change statistics like that, so it'll probably never happen.
Like, run speed:
33-37 Luigi 1.5
33-37 Lucas 1.5
33-37 Wario 1.5
33-37 Kirby 1.5
33-37 Ike 1.5


Kirby's tied with these dudes... Ike has huge sword disjoint, Lucas has disjoint and projectiles, Luigi has absurdly fast moves, a good projectile, and best grab reward in the game, Wario has 4th best airspeed (as opposed to Kirby's 4th worst)
It's hard man

Falco used to have a 1.5 running speed... in Melee... Falco used to be faster than Ike... in Brawl... *waits for Smash 4 Wolf to have faster running speed than Falco*

Oh, and I like how we ignored Toon Link. Toon Link's at least somewhat viable. Yes, he has issues with shields, but he's a slippery kid with stupid confirms off of Bombs and a pretty good disjoint range.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Not when your U-air has much worse angle for both killing and comboing while only dealing 1% more.

B-throw is weaker than Mario's for no reason. I mean. We are talking about slower but stronger Mario here. He already is weaker than Mario in grab game (No U-throw + D-air + F-air spike shenanigans. No D-throw U-tilts), at least give him a better kill throw considering his ability to get grabs is bit in lower levels than Mario.

Pills need lesser end lag to compensate for mobility. But maybe this would be a bit too much when combined with the other buffs.

A Tornado that goes higher sounds good also. His recovery is like, really bad bruh. I agree on him having bad recovery but having worse vertical recovery than Ganon unless there's a wall and you can mash like a god while keeping yourself in a wide open state in Doc Tornado isn't good enough.

Damage output increase on some attacks (Jab. DA(?). N-air). He runs slower than Luigi but is weaker. And what's this. A jacket and stuffs that are kept on hammerspace makes Mario runs slower than a fat*** penguin. Smh.

Just my idea buffing a low tier.

And his Tornado links better than Luigi Cyclone, and I rarely ever let people fall out of it. What are you implying?

But he doesn't need those changes. As it stands now he's a solid character with a clear gameplan that can do what he needs to do. This is what I consider balanced.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ LiteralGrill I mean the venue is on church ground and it being Sunday and all. I mean yall know us black folk church is like half the flippin day. You havent missed anything. And smash top 32 doesnt start till 4pm EST

 

[Sir Tundra]

Falco used to have a 1.5 running speed... in Melee... Falco used to be faster than Ike... in Brawl... *waits for Smash 4 Wolf to have faster running speed than Falco*

Oh, and I like how we ignored Toon Link. Toon Link's at least somewhat viable. Yes, he has issues with shields, but he's a slippery kid with stupid confirms off of Bombs and a pretty good disjoint range.

jump cancelled bomb throw to up b is just crazy man. So many people ignore the fact that toon link can even do that.

Well for folks asking about a tier list, we could always do something kinda like this.

Spoiler

I didn't make the picture (obviously it's crap quality) but this could be a lot more easily adjusted and discussed a bit. Maybe make it a bit easier to "place" characters if you will. Just something I figured I'd bring up.

Also, anyone have any idea when SKTAR is gonna be streaming? With no schedule I can find anywhere I'm scared I'll miss it

Crap qualitiy or not it's about time some one made a smash 4 tier chart.

 

[monzer]

Well for folks asking about a tier list, we could always do something kinda like this.

Spoiler

I didn't make the picture (obviously it's crap quality) but this could be a lot more easily adjusted and discussed a bit. Maybe make it a bit easier to "place" characters if you will. Just something I figured I'd bring up.

Also, anyone have any idea when SKTAR is gonna be streaming? With no schedule I can find anywhere I'm scared I'll miss it

Templates like that actually come from a website that has tier list templates for every game, except for smash. I guess we could just copy paste pictures of the characters on the basic template from the website.

 

[Kaladin]

Well for folks asking about a tier list, we could always do something kinda like this.

Spoiler

I didn't make the picture (obviously it's crap quality) but this could be a lot more easily adjusted and discussed a bit. Maybe make it a bit easier to "place" characters if you will. Just something I figured I'd bring up.

Also, anyone have any idea when SKTAR is gonna be streaming? With no schedule I can find anywhere I'm scared I'll miss it

I like this idea very, very much. Someone should put this together.

 

[Ffamran]

Well for folks asking about a tier list, we could always do something kinda like this.

Spoiler

I didn't make the picture (obviously it's crap quality) but this could be a lot more easily adjusted and discussed a bit. Maybe make it a bit easier to "place" characters if you will. Just something I figured I'd bring up.

Also, anyone have any idea when SKTAR is gonna be streaming? With no schedule I can find anywhere I'm scared I'll miss it

Yeah! That KoF XIII tier spreadsheet idea I brought up several times before!

Templates like that actually come from a website that has tier list templates for every game, except for smash. I guess we could just copy paste pictures of the characters on the basic template from the website.

I remember a site that had squared mugshots of the characters... I don't know if everyone's on there - Lucas, Roy, and Ryu might not be in the sprite pack.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Yeah! That KoF XIII tier spreadsheet idea I brought up several times before!


I remember a site that had squared mugshots of the characters... I don't know if everyone's on there - Lucas, Roy, and Ryu might not be in the sprite pack.

Yeah there's a tier list making app that we could snag pictures from pretty easy, the issue is deciding where exactly to put all the characters. This seems like it'd almost have to encompass it's own thread/topic since people would have to vote on placement or whatnot but hey, if people are really THAT interested it could be done.

 

[PMMikey]

I really do believe in Peach. Like I've been struggling to get a third characte r because no one would ever click with me and after seeing Llod I really do see a future for Peach.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah! That KoF XIII tier spreadsheet idea I brought up several times before!

Yeah I thought about doing something like this before, probably because of you bringing up the idea, but I don't know where to put all the characters, and I don't care tooooo much. It is a good idea though. Y could be viability, x could be ease of use/gameplan or something

 

[|RK|]

jump cancelled bomb throw to up b is just crazy man. So many people ignore the fact that toon link can even do that.

Crap qualitiy or not it's about time some one made a smash 4 tier chart.

We get a change every couple of months - how? It throws out results, because character changes don't show up immediately in tournament, and it throws out educates theorycraft.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/page-28#post-199938

Alright guys. Beware. Marth and Roy's sweetspots are much safer on shield. It mimics the affect of a lower IASA on shields. And Ryu, well for him it's basically his entire moveset.

This hasn't been confirmed, but it's likely that any hitlag modified moves above 1.0 have reduced hitlag on shield. So mains of hitlags kings, rejoice.

 

[Kaladin]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/page-28#post-199938

Alright guys. Beware. Marth and Roy's sweetspots are much safer on shield. It mimics the affect of a lower IASA on shields. And Ryu, well for him it's basically his entire moveset.

This hasn't been confirmed, but it's likely that any hitlag modified moves above 1.0 have reduced hitlag on shield. So mains of hitlags kings, rejoice.

Waitwut!

Has there just been another patch? I thought this was old news...

 

[TTTTTsd]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/page-28#post-199938

Alright guys. Beware. Marth and Roy's sweetspots are much safer on shield. It mimics the affect of a lower IASA on shields. And Ryu, well for him it's basically his entire moveset.

This hasn't been confirmed, but it's likely that any hitlag modified moves above 1.0 have reduced hitlag on shield. So mains of hitlags kings, rejoice.

Heh heh, things just get better and better for him this patch, don't they? If the good news keeps piling on like this, I might develop my Marth a bit more! (You know, for science...)

In all seriousness, this is pretty big news I wager.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Heh heh, things just get better and better for him this patch, don't they? If the good news keeps piling on like this, I might develop my Marth a bit more! (You know, for science...)

In all seriousness, this is pretty big news I wager.

Science?

Is that what the kids call it these days?

In my time we called it being a Tier *****.

@ Kaladin

It happened in 1.10 but was overlooked.

Basically Marth, Roy and Ryu were even better then we all realized.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Science?

Is that what the kids call it these days?

In my time we called it being a Tier *****.

I consider it scientific. I play a good character and I can win. It's why I only secondary Doc these days.

I do remember the adage of Sanford Kelly if it makes you feel any better. I'm young-ish but I know my FGC lore pretty well, damn right I'm gonna pick a top tier (or in this case, a good character) =P.

Speaking of, this is also REALLY good for Ryu, even though I can imagine he's still pretty unsafe on shield, at least it's been adjusted to be not so ridiculous I imagine.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Looking at the data Ryu received about 3 to 4 frames reduction when hitting a shield on..well...every move he has aside from hadouken.

So yeah.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah there's a tier list making app that we could snag pictures from pretty easy, the issue is deciding where exactly to put all the characters. This seems like it'd almost have to encompass it's own thread/topic since people would have to vote on placement or whatnot but hey, if people are really THAT interested it could be done.

I'm interested! Maybe we should vote first as a community (An admin could make the poll and highlight it at the same place they highlight tournament's), if we want to do it.

 

[TurboLink]

Ok, I think my standards for what counts as viable was way to loose. Now I would consider the list to be this.

Highly Viable:
Somewhat Viable:
Not Viable:

How in the world is Lucina somewhat viable but Link and Toon Link not at least somewhat viable? lmfao.

 

[FullMoon]

So they buffed all the new DLC characters in this patch.

That's kinda weird.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Looking at the data Ryu received about 3 to 4 frames reduction when hitting a shield on..well...every move he has aside from hadouken.

So yeah.

Yeah that should help a lot for Ryu, especially with stuff like his Fair which has the reach of legends, and, well, basically anything.

This is seriously the Marth patch session though. Can't complain, he deserved it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

...

Ok I have a question.

Do you guys...want Marth to be top tier? Do you want to lose to him?

Seems like non-Marth mains complained about his nerfs more then Marth mains.

If you were a melee head that means you been losing to Marth for nearly a decade.

Is it a comfort zone thing?

 

[TTTTTsd]

...

Ok I have a question.

Do you guys...want Marth to be top tier? Do you want to lose to him?

Seems like non-Marth mains complained about his nerfs more then Marth mains.

If you were a melee head that means you been losing to Marth for nearly a decade.

Is it a comfort zone thing?

I'm not sure if I want him to be Top Tier but I hated how underwhelming he was prior to 1.0.8, personally. I think he's in a great spot right now in the default metagame (customs Marth is where it gets uhhhhh), and frankly seeing him not being at least passable was kind of painful. Like watching a strong dude fall from glory. It's like if a revision of Super Turbo came out and Balrog ended up in like, C tier. It wouldn't be bad for the meta, it'd just be really depressing that he wouldn't be at least viable or good.

Which is why I'm glad he's climbed back up a good deal, personally.

 

[monzer]

How in the world is Lucina somewhat viable but Link and Toon Link not at least somewhat viable? lmfao.

Because Link and Toon Link don't have any tournament representation, and Math and Lucina do.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ryu's meta will take forever to develop without those heavy hitters. I mean, Emblem Lord's stuff over in the Ryu boards works wonders, and it made me take a step up in my own Ryu play. However, characters need more than one rep with regional presence pushing their meta. If Trela decides to stick with Ryu, it would be a huge boon, given his high level of competency.

I don't know what heavy hitters are pushing the Roy or Pit meta. I know Earth is pushing Pit over in Japan, and he is rather good, but Japan has a different meta by default. Nairo, as good as he is, seems to pick Pit when he wants to let his fundamentals take over to even out any unfavorable MUs for ZSS. He doesn't really push the Pit meta like a dedicated player would.

I have no idea who is pushing Roy in a regional and above environment, though. I haven't seen Pwii or Sethlon play yet, so I don't know how their respective Roy play differs from the "CF with a sword" gameplan most Roy's pull.

Sethlon gness and StaticManny are the only Roy's I can think of. I haven't seen gness's Roy in a long time though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

...

Ok I have a question.

Do you guys...want Marth to be top tier? Do you want to lose to him?

Seems like non-Marth mains complained about his nerfs more then Marth mains.

If you were a melee head that means you been losing to Marth for nearly a decade.

Is it a comfort zone thing?

Sure. Lets have another person to complain about and speculate on how to nerf.
Marth is already terrifying. I ain't looking to get janked and killed at 50% off a jab by anyone. If Marth was like this in 1.0 he probably would be undisputed high tier and people would cry that Jab 1 to Fsmash is broken. There would be a lot more Marth mains as a result. I don't want that.

 

[Asdioh]

Marth with any more buffs would be a nightmare. It's already like 65:35 Kirby imo. Anytime I see people asking for Marth to have "double Fair" it makes me furious.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So they buffed all the new DLC characters in this patch.

That's kinda weird.

And mewtwo running around wondering where's the love.

 

[PMMikey]

Ok, I think my standards for what counts as viable was way to loose. Now I would consider the list to be this.

Highly Viable:
Somewhat Viable:
Not Viable:

Mii Brawler can't be too good anymore with out customs and how is little mac, Dr Mario, and Robin going to be more viable than Falco, Jiggs, Toon Link or even Link? Hell even WFT. Also like Olimar is highly viable since when and how can you say Ryu and Roy are highly viable when there is no real proof? Like yeah they're good but there isn't really and like video proof. Just my opinion but I think this list isn't accurate.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Marth with any more buffs would be a nightmare. It's already like 65:35 Kirby imo. Anytime I see people asking for Marth to have "doubke Fair" it makes me furious.

Lol wut, how the heck is it 35:65? 40:60 at worst, you must play really good Marths

 

[TTTTTsd]

And mewtwo running around wondering where's the love.

One day, man......one day....they'll understand. I sure hope so, anyways!

But yeah gonna agree with @ Asdioh here, Marth is pretty fine as is IMO. I think he's in a great spot and personally if he gets any better I might be frightened. But I'll accept it. If he ever gets to be ridiculously good I'll just play him and abuse the power. Might as well.