Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Blobface]

Donkey Kong tho.... What did I just watch?

*Obligatory expand dong reference*

Hoo boy Nairo vs Tweek

 

[Spinosaurus]

No character should struggle to kill past 200%. Christ Angel was above that for the whole of Raptor's 2nd stock without being close to dying.

It was pretty funny though.

 

[Blobface]

Nairo vs Tweek went as expected.

 

[Noa.]

Raptor needs to learn about how to use Usmash. :V

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Donkey Kong tho.... What did I just watch? Yes, I know Donkey Kong struggles to get the grab when compared to pre patch diddy but ROFL still.

What. Nothing has changed about DKs grab.

 

[Firefoxx]

What. Nothing has changed about DKs grab.

Was likely referring to what happens after the grab now. Which, as DKWill just showed, is a little ridiculous.

 

[Kofu]

No character should struggle to kill past 200%. Christ Angel was above that for the whole of Raptor's 2nd stock without being close to dying.

It was pretty funny though.

I wasn't watching the stream, but Raptor was using Yoshi, yeah? A few other characters are like that. Game & Watch is one, Bowser Jr. kinda, Pikachu, and Duck Hunt all struggle to kill in my experience. Either they have no reliable killing options or those they have are just too unsafe against quicker characters or those with a good defensive game. I remember a match against @Locke 06's Mega Man a while ago where he at least reached 200% and probably got to 250% or so. I couldn't land a good kill move. I've had matches where I've killed with Game & Watch's BAir because it's the safest thing that kills that I could get to land. It's a serious issue for some characters and something I hope is addressed in later patches.

 

[Blobface]

What would people think of Rosalina if Luma respawned only after Rosalina did a certain amount of damage?

 

[Zannabluke]

i'd rather have luma gone until rosa dies too.

 

[C0rvus]

I thought this thread of all places wouldn't be among those that thinks Rosalina needs nerfs. Sure, when Luma is gone, her best bet is to wait things out. We can pretend this isn't disadvantageous to her. She's a fine character with a couple silly moves. Seriously.

Luma respawning after dealing damage would encourage interaction, but this is a horribly disadvantageous interaction. It also makes little sense.

Luma staying gone for the whole stock would be ridiculous. He's far too easy to dispatch and the result would be a bad character.

 

[Djent]

Salem over Angel Cortez 2-1 to get into top 8.

 

[wedl!!]

considering that luma is absurdly easy to kill there is literally no reason it should have permadeath, that's actually a horrible idea.

i don't think rosa needs to be nerfed any further.

 

[bc1910]

I didn't really mind Dabuz vs 6wx. Like, it was SO boring it was funny. Which made it less boring.

Also I know Dabuz won but the more I watch Rosalina the more I understand how her flaws could be exploited by certain characters. I'm not convinced that Sonic is one of them, it seems like Luma is just too good at walling out his approaches. But, against characters who can reasonably take the lead and keep it, I think Rosalina could have her own gameplan used against her. Sonic could certainly time her out but I think getting the lead can be an issue.

 

[Zannabluke]

the thing has a decent health pool, is not completely helpless by any means and it would encourage rosa players to actually care about it and not to use it as a rechargeable shield.

 

[Blobface]

I thought this thread of all places wouldn't be among those that thinks Rosalina needs nerfs. Sure, when Luma is gone, her best bet is to wait things out. We can pretend this isn't disadvantageous to her. She's a fine character with a couple silly moves. Seriously.

Luma respawning after dealing damage would encourage interaction, but this is a horribly disadvantageous interaction. It also makes little sense.

Luma staying gone for the whole stock would be ridiculous. He's far too easy to dispatch and the result would be a bad character.

I'm not suggesting we make a straight nerf, it would probably merit some compensatory buffs to Rosalina's normals. And it should be a disadvantageous interaction if she's lost Luma. Rosalina's issue as a character is that she can lose Luma, but against a lot of characters that doesn't mean anything when she can just run away from them for free, resulting in a lot of polarizing matchups. And of course, some characters can effectively pressure Rosalina when she doesn't have Luma, but there's plenty that simply can't and that's something that should be changed.

And permanently losing Luma is silly. Ice Climbers did it, sure, but we all know how Ice Climbers were the epitome of good design right?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

the thing has a decent health pool, is not completely helpless by any means and it would encourage rosa players to actually care about it and not to use it as a rechargeable shield.

Try using her against a competent sword character. See how long Luma lasts there.

If it was one per stock, Luma would need a massive HP buff.

 

[Mr. Johan]

It's not so much an issue with Luma as it is with Rosalina's defensive specs. Adequately fast on the ground and air, large, quick Fair, Ftilt, and Dtilt, fast rolls, invisible rolls and airdodge to make it initially difficult to gauge the direction, she's got no problem running the clock until she can make her Jab and tilts giant again.

Nerfing the speed of any one of those would make for a more significant disadvantage state.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Has anyone (@ Emblem Lord ?) tested exactly what he can dragon punch out of? Like, can you dragon punch out of Sheik fair strings? Cuz that'd be a game changer if you don't get baited.

Depends on your DI and your percent but yes this is a thing. But if you get baited it sucks.

I got knocked out SKTAR already though my first match and I started in losers so yeah. But it was cool having Salem and Dabuz walk up to me and ask for games. Dabuz is on another level with Rosa its no wonder he is the only one doing work. I have beaten Rosas down in tourney with Ryu, but his style was so optimized and when he was in kill percent dude was so smart. He just legit ran away instead of challenging me. People hate his style but he plays like he has a brain and I respect that.

Oh, well. Back to the lab. I was talking tech with another Ryu while I was there and he told me some cool stuff. I gotta test it myself first and see how I can implement it.


It's also fun dragon punching Mario out of his "combos"

 

[Djent]

SKTAR 4 Top 8
x2
x1
x1 /
x1 /
x1 /
x1
x1

 

[C0rvus]

Most dash attacks launch Luma even when it is fresh. Near a ledge, that's death. Plenty of other moves can knock him off from center stage. Rosa's shield doesn't protect him from moves that aren't stopped by shields (ie. most every disjoint, piercing projectiles, basically any normal at close range). Luma isn't easy to protect while playing defensively, and you need him to mount any sort of meaningful offense.

Honestly, if your character cannot catch up with an evasive Rosalina, that isn't her fault. She isn't that fast, and she's floaty as hell. If you can't stop her from running or rolling away, either you or your character (or both) is bad. Or it's a bad MU. Simple as that, really. Rosalina isn't in a position to be nerfed anymore.

Also, Robin in top 8 Kreygasm

 

[adom4]

I thought this thread of all places wouldn't be among those that thinks Rosalina needs nerfs. Sure, when Luma is gone, her best bet is to wait things out. We can pretend this isn't disadvantageous to her. She's a fine character with a couple silly moves. Seriously.

Luma respawning after dealing damage would encourage interaction, but this is a horribly disadvantageous interaction. It also makes little sense.

Luma staying gone for the whole stock would be ridiculous. He's far too easy to dispatch and the result would be a bad character.

Honestly the big change Luma needs IMO is to make it that its jab doesn't clank with everything, it's really stupid & frustrating.

 

[Zannabluke]

SKTAR 4 Top 8
x2
x1
x1
x1
x1
or /
or /

m2k/dkwill
nairo
dabuz
tweek
salem

who are the falcon and sonic? sorry but can't watch the stream

 

[Trifroze]

What's Falcon's Sheik matchup like? Outside of Sheik, Luigi and Falcon seem to cover eachother's bad matchups very nicely.

Falcon's neutral vs Sheik is actually good, dash grab and dash attack can ignore any safety Sheik has at mid range and you have safe aerials of your own. However disadvantage for Falcon is so terrible the MU might be 30:70. Outside of edgeguarding Falcon kills Sheik much earlier though and racks up a good amount of damage himself. Before the Falcon nerfs the Falcon boards and myself considered this a -1 matchup with a chance for -2, but I think it's closer to the latter now.

 

[Blobface]

So how many characters can't properly chase down evasive Rosalina? Or how many characters can?

And for the record, Dabuz is smart.

 

[TurboLink]

So how many characters can't properly chase down evasive Rosalina? Or how many characters can?

And for the record, Dabuz is smart.

Link and Robin certainly can't. lmfao

 

[Djent]

m2k/dkwill
nairo
dabuz
tweek
salem

who are the falcon and sonic? sorry but can't watch the stream

Fatality (who made it in) and 6WX (who lost to False).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What did I say? I called it. Rosalinas jab at the ledge like that eats up EVERY SINGLE OPTION DK has. No amount of DingDongs will change that matchup. DK cant get the grab and gets crapped on in disadvantage. 40:60 or 45:55 imo.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

By that logic the only highly Viable character is Shiek, since every character has several bad matchups. Since most top players main/use 2-3 characters, they should be judged by how good they are with secondaries/other mains to cover their weaknesses. I also can't see why Luigi and Rosalina, characters who are known for being in the top 5 characters in the game, are on par with most Mid-tier characters because they have a few poor matchups. Same goes with Villager and Olimar, they are both very good high tier characters



Why, Bowser is fairly fast, has lots of kill power, has out of shield options, has a suicide move and really just suffers from terrible frame data and his large hitbox.

Link has no approach options, all he can do is just spam projectiles. Link also has poor frame data similar to Bowser's, and lacks reliable kill options.

Bowser is not fast. He runs fast. He has slow attacks. And since when are Luigi and Rosalina considered top 5 characters?

Ranai is winning most japanese tournaments as solo villager, guess he's probably viable. I agree on Olimar, his matchup against Sheik is close to unwinnable.

Rosa's "worst matchups" probably aren't even 4-6. 4-6s are winnable. If Rosa isn't viable, then only sheik is viable.

Luigi struggles hard against Sheik / Rosa and maybe ZSS. Mega and pacman wtf they are not a problem. Of all the ones you said I only think ROB is a bad one, and it's not very bad.

I never said that Rosa wasn't viable. I just don't think she should be in the 'highly viable' section. She's just viable.

I'm not sure why you're acting surprised that I referred to Mega Man as a bad MU for Luigi when he's cited more than anyone else, except perhaps Sheik, as Luigi's worst MU.

Try using her against a competent sword character. See how long Luma lasts there.

If it was one per stock, Luma would need a massive HP buff.

And more importantly, resistance to hit-stun. Luma dies from tumbling offstage in hitstun way more than he dies from running out of HP.

 

[Pyr]

I've always found it funny that people describe matchups like "X just nukes the **** out of Y. There is nothing Y can do but pray lightning hits the other person. It's THAT bad."

"45:55."

 

[Kaladin]

Falcon's neutral vs Sheik is actually good, dash grab and dash attack can ignore any safety Sheik has at mid range and you have safe aerials of your own. However disadvantage for Falcon is so terrible the MU might be 30:70. Outside of edgeguarding Falcon kills Sheik much earlier though and racks up a good amount of damage himself. Before the Falcon nerfs the Falcon boards and myself considered this a -1 matchup with a chance for -2, but I think it's closer to the latter now.

HYESZ!

Really though, I don't think Fatality is THAT much better than false that he would take a game if it's that bad.

 

[monzer]

Bowser is not fast. He runs fast. He has slow attacks. And since when are Luigi and Rosalina considered top 5 characters?

Bowser moves fast, that's what I ment, he is still tons better than Link.

Have you even seen any tier lists of this game. Rosalina is almost always placed in the 2nd/3rd spot and Luigi falls around 3rd/5th.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've always found it funny that people describe matchups like "X just nukes the **** out of Y. There is nothing Y can do but pray lightning hits the other person. It's THAT bad."

"45:55."

Kirby vs. Luigi in a nutshell

 

[Pazx]

Bowser moves fast, that's what I ment, he is still tons better than Link.

Have you even seen any tier lists of this game. Rosalina is almost always placed in the 2nd/3rd spot and Luigi falls around 3rd/5th.

That's not hugely accurate, especially when no tier list is "correct". Rosalina is probably top 5 and Luigi is probably not top 5, but we can't say for certain. I can show you several tier lists that disagree with you, honestly.

I've always thought Wario was just on the cusp of top 5 as well (originally putting him at 8) and Tweek is putting in work with him right now. A very obvious candidate for top tier/10/whatever.

 

[Blobface]

I tune into the stream and see a black costume ZSS get 2-stocked by a Wario and I think "WTH Nairo getting 2-stocked?!"

except it was Salem.

What kind of black magic allows Warios to land Waft so consistently?

 

[Kaladin]

I tune into the stream and see a black costume ZSS get 2-stocked by a Wario and I think "WTH Nairo getting 2-stocked?!"

except it was Salem.

What kind of black magic allows Warios to land Waft so consistently?

The black magic of hotbox extension.

Really though, Tweek 3-0'd Salem and three of Salem's characters with his secondary Wario. Wario for top 10!

 

[Hippieslayer]

I tune into the stream and see a black costume ZSS get 2-stocked by a Wario and I think "WTH Nairo getting 2-stocked?!"

except it was Salem.

What kind of black magic allows Warios to land Waft so consistently?

salem ****ing up black magic

 

[Spinosaurus]

Tweek isn't even playing Wario optimally, he just lands those wafts so free lol.

 

[Kaladin]

DK will vs False tho. DK can get 3 grabs and then you die, akin to Luigi. Top 15/20? High tier? He almost feels like a glass canon in that his disadvantage state is bad, not in that he dies early, but he really dishes it out.

 

[Zionaze]

If bike is on the ledge and opponent recovers low. 100% chance of you getting farted. And theres numerous fart setups that are simply inescapable if the wario executes it correctly

 

[Kaladin]

If bike is on the ledge and opponent recovers low. 100% chance of you getting farted. And theres numerous fart setups that are simply inescapable if the wario executes it correctly

How many frames does the fart hotbox stay out for if you fart on the bike on the ledge?