Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[monzer]

That's not hugely accurate, especially when no tier list is "correct". Rosalina is probably top 5 and Luigi is probably not top 5, but we can't say for certain. I can show you several tier lists that disagree with you, honestly.

Really? were these tier lists made by top players?

Link's neutral is significantly better than bowser's and is seriously one of the best of the game on the hands of someone who understands the kit. Since the (ridiculous) Link buffs, his tools mesh together flawlessly. Long range projectiles which can be layered on top of one another and used in very unpredictable and versatile ways. Fat, disjointed mid range normals and grab that either give him massive reward or push you back to a longer range where he dominates.

You do get that Link, in general, is still a very laggy character. His only safe move in neutral that he can use are his projectiles and his nair, all of whitch are predictable. His grab is very good, but that's all he really has going for him.

Much better disadvantage than anyone of this weight, with a fantastic fast fall and combo breakers with bombs or gale boomerang out. He also lives insanely long if the link player knows how to mix up the recovery with zair and bomb jump.

Links combo breakers, from what I've seen, are way too situational. How does he live insanely long if his recovery is around average, and involves him hurting himself.

OOS options that are better than bowser's in spin attack and up smash which kill, and grab which leads to follow-ups.

All of Links out of shield options are laggy and punishable easily. Bowser had up B out of shield which is much less punishable.

Also who the **** just said that Link sucks because he has to approach? He has a ridiculous projectile game. And if you shield them too much trying to get in you get grabbed and bodied. You have to approach. You have to play his neutral.

Being able to spam projectiles doesn't make a character viable. Samus can spam projectiles and she isn't viable. If it doesn't make Samus viable, why would it make Link viable? Most Link players on for glory do exactly what you just described and they are some of the easiest players to beat.

Meanwhile bowser is forced to play the opponent's game in most matchups and hope they make a mistake for any kind of decent reward, as good as his run speed is.

Why? Bowser has a better dash grab than Link, and has medium range projectiles to keep opponents away. While some of Bowsers gameplay does rely on reads, so does Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, and lots of other characters, all of whitch are better than both Link and Bowser.

Link is viable, bowser is not. If you think otherwise you haven't played a good Link.

This is Link's biggest problem. No one ever really uses him and there really are no Link players who can stack up against the top players in this game. Bowser has lots of representation and while they generally don't place very high, he still has so much more representation than Link.

Also, if Bowser has a stock lead he can always do a Bowsercide and win instantly. In my opinion no character with a suicide option should not be viable.

 

[Ghostbone]

Neither bowser nor link are viable

They also play completely differently so comparing them is dumb.

 

[RayNoire]

Link's disadvantage is Top 5 at worst. He's basically immune to non-KO gimps after mid percent, and Nair, Dair, and bomb make his landing easy. He also has decent options at the ledge.

 

[Ghostbone]

Link's disadvantage is Top 5 at worst. He's basically immune to non-KO gimps after mid percent, and Nair, Dair, and bomb make his landing easy. He also has decent options at the ledge.

Whaaaat

We serious

Let's just look at some common characters.
Sheik's is better, ZSS is better, Pikachu''s is better, Diddy's, is better, Yoshi's is better, Pit(too)'s is better, MK's is better, Sonic's is better.

Link is a fast faller with an abusable recovery, and bad options in the air when being juggled, which is an awful combination of attributes while in disadvantage.

 

[monzer]

Neither bowser nor link are viable

They also play completely differently so comparing them is dumb.

I wasn't trying to compare them, a lot of people were just wondering why Bowser was ranked as somewhat viable and Link was listed as not viable.

Really when it comes down to it, Link just isn't good enough in any particular category to be somewhat viable. Anything that he can do, another character can just do so much better, Mega Man has a better projectile game, Kirby breaks out of combos easier, Bowser has better kill power, Roy is better at spacing, and so far I've only been listing characters who are only somewhat viable and should only be used if you have other mains to back them up.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The commentators didnt really understand that the Ding Dong doesnt work at all percentages. If both players are at 100% or more it will not work. This is due to rage and the knockback growth / scaling being higher than it was pre patch.

Basically its not a "if you get grabbed at any kill percent you will die" thing. It's about getting grabbed at a specific percent range. Which prompts the DK to fish for it, which is bad.

 

[Nobie]

It's a little inaccurate to call Link a fast faller. He falls at a normal rate. His FASTFALL however, is absurdly fast, giving Link the highest fall to fastfall ratio in the game by a huge margin.

Basically, when he's falling normally, he falls about as fast as ROB. When he Fastfalls, he drops almost as quickly as Dedede/Fox.

 

[Yikarur]

still being unsure with how Miis are even going to be handled by all tournaments.

With regard to Brawler I thought Miis were allowed to use whatever customs they want even in customs off?

I hope TO's will finally settle the Mii Problem with Mii's being free. Germany uses Guest Mii's + Free Move choice. Spain as well. Same for Norway. France has tournaments with all evo Mii's legal but I think that's too arbitrary. Guest Mii's should be the standard for consistency reasons.
Restricting them to 1111 is directly contradicting the game and should really not be the solution. Mii's under Custom: off are playable as created.

Not sure. He really emphasized Bowser Jr. getting gimped easily out of his upB from weak hits. Not sure how much we saw of that being capitalized or attempted much.

You can just respawn the clown car by pressing A a short while after getting the weak hit. The gimp is not that absolute.

 

[RayNoire]

Whaaaat

We serious

Let's just look at some common characters.
Sheik's is better, ZSS is better, Pikachu''s is better, Diddy's, is better, Yoshi's is better, Pit(too)'s is better, MK's is better, Sonic's is better.

Link is a fast faller with an abusable recovery, and bad options in the air when being juggled, which is an awful combination of attributes while in disadvantage.

Out of those only Pikachu, MK, and Yoshi are close. I know it's not in vogue to say that anyone beats Sheik at anything, but she's more vulnerable in the air than Link is.

 

[Ghostbone]

Out of those only Pikachu, MK, and Yoshi are close. I know it's not in vogue to say that anyone beats Sheik at anything, but she's more vulnerable in the air than Link is.

HOOOOOW

Sheik's aerial mobility >>>>>> Link's. Sheik's aerials all come out faster and are thus better for challenging other characters in the air when she's in disadvantage. Sheik has bouncing fish for burst mobility, b-reverse needles > air-dodge sometimes and even dair situationally to land.

It's not even comparable. Sheik is one of the hardest characters to juggle in the game because she has so many landing options, and has burst mobility in the air.

 

[Yikarur]

Bouncing Fish as a third jump makes here more vulnerable? no not at all.
Characters with a third jump are the very best at disadvantage.
Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, Mii Brawler are probably Top5 because you can always use the third jump to get away.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

You do get that Link, in general, is still a very laggy character. His only safe move in neutral that he can use are his projectiles and his nair, all of whitch are predictable. His grab is very good, but that's all he really has going for him.

A very laggy character that forces reactions and approaches very easily. When you have to try to move through a minefield of options to get close to him, laggy normals aren't bad at all, especially with the massive disjoint. Three very versatile projectiles in neutral make his neutral options quite good, especially where one jab confirm or anything else pushes you back to projectile abuse range, as I was saying. I fail to see how the combination of arrows which can be charged and held as other projectiles are out, rang which can be angled and ***** things up as it returns even if it misses, and bombs which are an item toss with a delayed hitbox on whiff or drop are predictable.

Links combo breakers, from what I've seen, are way too situational. How does he live insanely long if his recovery is around average, and involves him hurting himself.

Bombs on the ground in front of his projectile game make most approaches much less simple. If gale rang is out and you land something, it will follow him and push you away as you try to follow up. This stuff happens quite a bit against a Link player who knows how to use his kit.

Why? Bowser has a better dash grab than Link, and has medium range projectiles to keep opponents away. While some of Bowsers gameplay does rely on reads, so does Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, and lots of other characters, all of whitch are better than both Link and Bowser.

Again, Link doesn't have to dash grab, or approach at all. He forces the opponent to move in, and if they do it incorrectly they get projectile walled or grabbed and take way more damage than bowser can do off of his grab. Flamethrower is great in neutral but really doesn't hold a candle to Link's neutral options. Flamethrower doesn't force an approach and isn't risk free at the range it works at.

This is Link's biggest problem. No one ever really uses him and there really are no Link players who can stack up against the top players in this game. Bowser has lots of representation and while they generally don't place very high, he still has so much more representation than Link.

Also, if Bowser has a stock lead he can always do a Bowsercide and win instantly. In my opinion no character with a suicide option should not be viable.

I invite you to come to Boston, where Link players seem to be running wild. Rooky was top 16 at smash con and wins locals often, and Mech D usually does very well at the tourneys he gets out to, third place at our last downtown monthly. Granted, Bowserside is legit since the patch that actually made it have a point, but his kamikaze, ganon's, kirby's, DDD's, etc. are all pretty hard to land to say that they make the character viable on their own.

TBH if I'm missing the bowsers who are doing work I'd love to hear it, he is my favorite heavy by far.

 

[Noa.]

No he doesn't. Outside of a possible(?) Downb shield break he could've gotten on him, he played that fine.
That's all of Yoshi's "supposed" kill set ups. Jab into Usmash while hoping they don't DI away while at high %, which is what Angel did to avoid being killed.

Also he naired Diddy around 150ish% and still didn't die, fresh. Sheik fair would've killed though cause why not?
Yoshi's killing problems are very real people. Reminds me of this part when I think of Yoshi's killing problems this entire stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuQ7lEx7WRw#t=1m32s

Thankfully today at SKTAR showed more examples :^)

Yoshi's jab to usmash never works right? Right?

https://youtu.be/dWvbivWXgDY?t=1m50s
https://youtu.be/dWvbivWXgDY?t=7m33s
https://youtu.be/chqcX3XV7Bg?t=2m55s
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=2m
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=2m55s
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=6m05s
https://youtu.be/8rVBr5jxGkI?t=1m25s

Sometimes you can DI out of it. Like all combos it's rage and percent dependent. But sometimes you can't get out of it. It's just like how you can't get out of ZSS"s uair uair UpB every single time. It's just guaranteed occasionally.

But I wasn't really talking specifically about Jab to usmash. Yoshi's usmash has a huge hitbox, comes out on frame 11, and can be done out of a run on the character with the 12th highest dash speed in the game.

Yoshi's usmash is one of the best in the game tbh. It's a good punish tool, and can catch landings very well.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2/v/6653671?t=1h21m50s

I can see why Yoshi might not end up top 10, but problems killing isn't one of them.

 

[RayNoire]

HOOOOOW

Sheik's aerial mobility >>>>>> Link's. Sheik's aerials all come out faster and are thus better for challenging other characters in the air when she's in disadvantage. Sheik has bouncing fish for burst mobility, b-reverse needles > air-dodge sometimes and even dair situationally to land.

It's not even comparable. Sheik is one of the hardest characters to juggle in the game because she has so many landing options, and has burst mobility in the air.

Link's Dair is very hard to challenge at high altitude, his fast fall is super fast (MUCH faster than his regular fall speed, which is very important), and Z-Drop bomb comes out as fast as anything Shiek's got. Mobility is nice but most top tiers can catch you anyway, so Link being able to muscle his way through to the ground is a big advantage.

Also Link gimps Sheik better than Sheik gimps Link, but the world's not ready for that one.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Also Link gimps Sheik better than Sheik gimps Link, but the world's not ready for that one.

Stop that right now.

 

[Kaladin]

Link's neutral is the stuff of nightmares. The other day, I was playing this link that would pull a bomb, and Z-drop+zair if I got close. The bomb fell to the ground, not exploading, just sitting there, taunting me. He would often set it up so there was a bomb sitting behind him, too. The timing was such that and approach would get punished by a bomb explosion, zair, or grab. You can't even cross him up because of the bomb behind. Of course, that was implemented with other neutral link thing, but my god that was horrible.

 

[zeldasmash]

Also Link gimps Sheik better than Sheik gimps Link, but the world's not ready for that one.

I'm.........very curious as to hear why you think that......because i don't see it......like at all.

 

[san.]

I hope TO's will finally settle the Mii Problem with Mii's being free. Germany uses Guest Mii's + Free Move choice. Spain as well. Same for Norway. France has tournaments with all evo Mii's legal but I think that's too arbitrary. Guest Mii's should be the standard for consistency reasons.
Restricting them to 1111 is directly contradicting the game and should really not be the solution. Mii's under Custom: off are playable as created.




You can just respawn the clown car by pressing A a short while after getting the weak hit. The gimp is not that absolute.

Okay, then ESAM was quite wrong then.

 

[RayNoire]

I'm.........very curious as to hear why you think that......because i don't see it......like at all.

Dair catches ledge vulnerability (and Bouncing Fish if you're a bit bolder) really easily, and Vanish is easier than most to time for that. Meanwhile Link's not going to die from anything of Sheik's unless he fumbles the bomb or gets Fished right at the blastzone.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

IMO weight should be relevant when talking about disadvantage strength, which makes most of what @ RayNoire is saying a lot more real. Link takes a bunch of hits and is just fine due to his survivabilty. Still, sheik gimps harder. She's also most likely best gimps full stop.

 

[Ghostbone]

Link's Dair is very hard to challenge at high altitude, his fast fall is super fast (MUCH faster than his regular fall speed, which is very important), and Z-Drop bomb comes out as fast as anything Shiek's got. Mobility is nice but most top tiers can catch you anyway, so Link being able to muscle his way through to the ground is a big advantage.

Also Link gimps Sheik better than Sheik gimps Link, but the world's not ready for that one.

You don't actually have to challenge link's dair, it's super laggy so you just grab him, throw combo and reset the situation, link has to land somehow.

To z-drop a bomb you have to actually pull out the bomb which takes ages, and that assumes they actually hit the falling bomb rather than your side or something.

Dair catches ledge vulnerability (and Bouncing Fish if you're a bit bolder) really easily, and Vanish is easier than most to time for that. Meanwhile Link's not going to die from anything of Sheik's unless he fumbles the bomb or gets Fished right at the blastzone.

Sheik very rarely actually has to use up-b far enough away that you can easily get the 1 frame timing, because her air speed is fanstastic and bouncing fish is insane.
Sheik can easily chase you right to the blastzone with bouncing fish if you're spending ages out their because your recovery pattern is linear.

I mean recoveries are generally very hard to challenge in this game, but sheik's off-stage game >>>>>>>> Link's off-stage game for sure lol.

 

[Nobie]

One factor that might be affecting Mii custom moves could just be population size. European countries are smaller population-wise compared to the US (of course), so European national tournaments, as well as US regionals, have fewer attendees and can afford the time it takes to allow every player to select their custom moves.

The issue comes when you have bigger and bigger tournaments. When you have 1000-2000 entrants, the number of Miis increase, as do the number of custom move sets for the Miis as a result. When you have that many people packed into a tournament for two days, what is the best course of action for making sure that selecting Mii custom moves won't take too long?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

You don't actually have to challenge link's dair, it's super laggy so you just grab him, throw combo and reset the situation, link has to land somehow.

To z-drop a bomb you have to actually pull out the bomb which takes ages, and that assumes they actually hit the falling bomb rather than your side or something.

Dude, misinformation. Good Links will dair at a height where the move ends right before they land. Not easy, quite safe.

And he can pull a bomb any time when people get hit by a projectile trying to get in and its not even that slow for the reward he gets. Bombs can be held, and stay out and tick when dropped.

 

[Gawain]

Yeah, no way does Link beat Sheik off stage. lol even at the thought. Link's recovery is fairly predictable. His speed isn't the greatest too, so he's rarely even going to reach the ledge to set up his dair to catch the snap vulnerability. On top of that, Sheik can just recover high. And if she's laterally roughly equal with Link, she can just slap him with a bouncing fish while he tries to guard. Sheik's got one of the best recoveries in the game. It's multidimensional and she has so many ways to make it onto the stage. You can't just auto cover all her options. When Link is in the air, he has very little to beat Sheik with. He has to land eventually, and Sheik is many times more mobile than he is. All Sheik has to do is wait for him to commit to something (which is almost certainly going to be unsafe) and then grab him while he recovers from it. I can see Link zair-ing to get a safe landing, but if sheik is already nearby this isn't going to help him much. Link's weight and speed makes him combo food for Sheik too. Sorry, I'm just not seeing how Link even stands a chance in this matchup. His moves aren't fast enough to deal with Sheik's close range bait game. Jab(and maybe dtilt) is pretty much the only thing he can do safely when Sheik is doing fairs nearby waiting for a chance to grab. If he jumps, then he's in an even worse position. He can't just run away, Sheik is way faster and Link's pivot options aren't very fast either. For that matter, how is Link supposed to get the kill on Sheik? He has nothing to reliably confirm into kill moves at good percents. Maybe he can down throw up air or something.

I'm not seeing how Link wins this matchup unless the Sheik player just gets severely outplayed.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Link's Dair is very hard to challenge at high altitude, his fast fall is super fast (MUCH faster than his regular fall speed, which is very important), and Z-Drop bomb comes out as fast as anything Shiek's got. Mobility is nice but most top tiers can catch you anyway, so Link being able to muscle his way through to the ground is a big advantage.

Also Link gimps Sheik better than Sheik gimps Link, but the world's not ready for that one.

Doesn't z-air make Link's z-drop more of a commitment? Or does he have some way to z-drop without z-air coming out?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Doesn't z-air make Link's z-drop more of a commitment? Or does he have some way to z-drop without z-air coming out?

As a brawl Link player, my original thoughts exactly. He can't z drop without doing a zair. The solution? Poke the approach with zair as you drop the bomb. It has almost no landing lag whatsoever.

 

[Greward]

One factor that might be affecting Mii custom moves could just be population size. European countries are smaller population-wise compared to the US (of course), so European national tournaments, as well as US regionals, have fewer attendees and can afford the time it takes to allow every player to select their custom moves.

The issue comes when you have bigger and bigger tournaments. When you have 1000-2000 entrants, the number of Miis increase, as do the number of custom move sets for the Miis as a result. When you have that many people packed into a tournament for two days, what is the best course of action for making sure that selecting Mii custom moves won't take too long?

Mii sets are usually loaded before the tournament starts, and most people play the same moveset or there's little difference (brawler is usually 1122 or 2122, gunners usually are 3112 etc).
Even if they weren't, it takes little time to create a Mii. It's not like everyone in the tournament is going to play a Mii and a different set every time so time shouldn't be an issue.
We have less tournaments than in america, but besides super huge nationals we get ok numers / comparable to american locals.

 

[Trifroze]

Literally just tested what the realistic reaction time in Smash might be by putting a Ganondorf bot to attack in training mode and tried to react to whatever he did with shield. I averaged 14-17 (for the startup frame before your shield comes up), sometimes kinda dozed off and went to 18-20. Fastest ones were generally 12-13s which I got a few of, and I think only really godly/young players could hope pull that off consistently.

If you're super focused on avoiding something, have a nice reaction time and you're in an otherwise aware state you'll probably get your shield up around frame 15 consistently, but if you're thinking of anything or pressing buttons it can take you more like 18-20 or even slightly upwards of 20 sometimes.

A good reaction time to a strong impulse like flashing is like 170-200 milliseconds which would be 10-12 frames, but in Smash many animations start off really vague and some don't make any clear sounds either before the actual hitbox comes out so that may explain the extra frames.

Reacting to sparta kick tho:

Of course then you go online and the 15s become 30s and suddenly Link is the best character in the game.

EDIT: and to clarify I did this little test just out of curiosity towards all the discussion about moves you can avoid out of reaction, roll punishes out of reaction and things like that

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi's jab to usmash never works right? Right?

https://youtu.be/dWvbivWXgDY?t=1m50s
https://youtu.be/dWvbivWXgDY?t=7m33s
https://youtu.be/chqcX3XV7Bg?t=2m55s
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=2m
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=2m55s
https://youtu.be/QS3zjtx_ih0?t=6m05s
https://youtu.be/8rVBr5jxGkI?t=1m25s

First 3 could've been DI'd, it tends to work if you get the tip of jab1 if they don't DI. Rage % etc. dependent but most people with high percents can DI away enough to airdodge before the Usmash lands.
Lucario one was crazy lucky

Most of em that worked was cause he hit with the tip of jab1 and didn't DI, the one with you (realized after watching) you actually had enough time to airdodge as I just said.
6 examples where the tip of it has more success rate against most people does not = guaranteed like sheik's 50/50 Dthrow to kill with multiple moves.

But yeah, Yoshi's Usmash is good wouldn't say best. His is frame 11 for first hitbox to come out I believe, fox is 8. Similar Usmashes but with fox's speed he can cover half the stages distance with his sliding usmash and it comes out faster compared to Yoshi's.
That last example I don't get, airdodging to the ground and he got hit? So anyone can hit I guess.

 

[Blobface]

@ Trifroze This is really relevant to Ganon in general, how reactable was Flame Choke?

 

[Trifroze]

@ Trifroze This is really relevant to Ganon in general, how reactable was Flame Choke?

Down b and jabs were literally all the bot ever did, but I recall flame choke being 15 frames or so from close-up. Further away it's probably 25-30. The stick input that's required to avoid grabs will most likely add a frame or two plus the startup time for spotdodges/rolls can be anywhere between 1-4 frames depending on the character, so I think flame choke sits right on the border, almost impossible to avoid from close up but very easy from far away.

Coincidentally ZSS' grab is very similar in speed, 16 frames right next to the opponent but a surprising 24 frames from max range. The fact that she has a Falcon level dash grab boost really is useful and you should not count on the tether to give you additional range since it's faster to just run the extra distance.

 

[Shaya]

When you're trying to react/anticipate on point, you're playing your observation game around shield coming up or dropping.
Shields coming up on frame 2 while still being frame 1; has always made me wonder if that's a design decision to negate reaction-speed dominance.

The "gods" are doing such anticipating in sub 10 frames. I can muster at best 140-160ms I think, but that isn't consistent (I probably sit at around 230 on average, I'm not sure how much my reaction speed has gotten worse over the years/aging more so my dexterity has dwindled [keeping up reaction speed for 4-8+ hours is grueling and not something I can do reliably anymore])
But y'know those dash up smashes ESAM gets on everyone? Well he claims 5-8 frame reaction (but he's planning that "read" that far in advance) or so, and it's not that farfetched.

 

[Zethoro]

Really? were these tier lists made by top players?



You do get that Link, in general, is still a very laggy character. His only safe move in neutral that he can use are his projectiles and his nair, all of whitch are predictable. His grab is very good, but that's all he really has going for him.



Links combo breakers, from what I've seen, are way too situational. How does he live insanely long if his recovery is around average, and involves him hurting himself.



All of Links out of shield options are laggy and punishable easily. Bowser had up B out of shield which is much less punishable.



Being able to spam projectiles doesn't make a character viable. Samus can spam projectiles and she isn't viable. If it doesn't make Samus viable, why would it make Link viable? Most Link players on for glory do exactly what you just described and they are some of the easiest players to beat.



Why? Bowser has a better dash grab than Link, and has medium range projectiles to keep opponents away. While some of Bowsers gameplay does rely on reads, so does Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, and lots of other characters, all of whitch are better than both Link and Bowser.



This is Link's biggest problem. No one ever really uses him and there really are no Link players who can stack up against the top players in this game. Bowser has lots of representation and while they generally don't place very high, he still has so much more representation than Link.

Also, if Bowser has a stock lead he can always do a Bowsercide and win instantly. In my opinion no character with a suicide option should not be viable.

Quick little nitpick, unless you're fighting a character with really poor recovery, Bowsercide no longer works because the opponent gets to jump out and with a good recovery, get back to the stage for a free stock.
One of the many curses of the flying man.

 

[Minordeth]

I know this is fighting games 101, but there is a massive difference between spontaneous reactions and anticipated reactions. This should go without saying. I'm sure Esam can get those 5-8 frame reactions because that's the equivalent of gaming that "press the dot when it turns green" reaction tests.

I doubt even godly players hit sub 10 frames spontaneously with all of the variables that happen during a match, or even an individual footsies trade. That kind of reaction is also going to vary given how differentiated startup animations are for a given character's buttons. Smash startup animations are relatively easier to anticipate than any 2D fighter though, which is a saving grace for old people like me.

I'm glad normals and smashes are like 15-20 frames. It makes my old ass feel better for being unable to keep up in Guilty Gear.

 

[RayNoire]

Doesn't z-air make Link's z-drop more of a commitment? Or does he have some way to z-drop without z-air coming out?

It's a bit more of a commitment, but it's not like Zair is unsafe to land with either.

Link's recovery is also really underrated. With bomb insurance he can afford to fight gimp attempts with Up-B and actually drift away from the stage, which is extremely hard to challenge.

 

[Trifroze]

When you're trying to react/anticipate on point, you're playing your observation game around shield coming up or dropping.
Shields coming up on frame 2 while still being frame 1; has always made me wonder if that's a design decision to negate reaction-speed dominance.

The "gods" are doing such anticipating in sub 10 frames. I can muster at best 140-160ms I think, but that isn't consistent (I probably sit at around 230 on average, I'm not sure how much my reaction speed has gotten worse over the years/aging more so my dexterity has dwindled [keeping up reaction speed for 4-8+ hours is grueling and not something I can do reliably anymore])
But y'know those dash up smashes ESAM gets on everyone? Well he claims 5-8 frame reaction (but he's planning that "read" that far in advance) or so, and it's not that farfetched.

I averaged around 200 ms 4-5 years back and it's still similar surprisingly, however I can't get anything under 160 ms literally ever and getting numbers that are even around the 170 ms mark require some serious clutch for me, but my numbers are beside the point.

No human has ever gotten under 100 ms so 5 and 6 frames are definitely out of the question, and I'd say even 7 frames is realistically not happening. 8 frames / 133 ms is still very much pushing it but possible, however you'd need to be extremely ready for it. I'm no expert on biology or neuroscience, so much so that I don't know which subject this is more related to, but I think we simply have too much distance and/or stopping points for the information to travel much faster than that.

Muscle contraction is what probably takes around half of our average reaction time which is about 250ms, and you can reduce it by sort of half-flexing your finger beforehand (I think twitching may have been a term for it but maybe not). Regardless it may be one of the largest factors between people with really good and people with average reaction times besides age and state of awareness.

Either way when we speak of actions that can be reacted to I think we're mostly overestimating the capabilities of the players in the scenarios they're in. The biggest factor that makes reacting so slow during all the action is probably the player having their mind on something else, so when something does happen, they need to reassign their attention first and also confirm what they need to do in response to the stimulus instead of immediately going "okay now something I was anticipating happened time to act". I'd argue this is enough to double the time it takes to react in the most unexpected of cases.

ZSS' grab being called reactable is actually what got me started with this thinking. People say tether grabs can be reacted to but too often I see players / experience myself in a sort of shield standoff right next to each other only for one of them to tether grab the other out of the blue. I think when people say "ZSS' grab can be spotdodged on reaction" for example, they're remembering a scenario where they spotdodged it from max range where it's literally impossible not to react to it because all tethers expand so slowly. Still, even the immediate one at 16 frames is definitely well within our capabilities when we're actually anticipating it, but 5-8 frames seems equivalent to mistriggering the mouseclick and the light turning from red to green while you're doing it netting you a godlike 120 ms score on human benchmark.

 

[DanGR]

Also food for thought, it takes less time for audio information to travel to your brain than for visual information.
Here's a site that let's you test your reaction time to audio cues: http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
You'll average much quicker response times here than on the humanbenchmark (visual) website.

Turn up that game volume!

 

[Asdioh]

Also food for thought, it takes less time for audio information to travel to your brain than for visual information.
Here's a site that let's you test your reaction time to audio cues: http://cognitivefun.net/test/16
You'll average much quicker response times here than on the humanbenchmark (visual) website.

Turn up that game volume!

Unfortunately a lot of tournaments are done on monitors that have pitiful sound, especially when in a room with lots of other monitors/other people playing. You'll be able to hear sounds that stick out like Sonic's spinny moves, or Kirby getting hit () but most everything else will be hard to hear. I guess that's where headphones for the gamepad come in handy, huh? ...but only for one player :/

This fact is part of the reason the whole music discussion meant nothing to me, since I could never hear it in tournaments anyway!

So, practicing with no sound could actually help you in tournaments... unless you actually happen to be able to hear the TV at the tournaments, in which case it's better to practice with sound... hm.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I couldn't help but chuckle out loud a bit when I saw R.O.B. listed as a top 15 threat. Don't get me wrong, he's definitely a tourney-viable character who deserves more rep and has a lot of things going for him - I would know, look who my main is - but most of the high tiers either have the combos and mobility to completely destroy him up-close, or they can easily neutralize his zoning tools, or sometimes both, even. And I'm here wondering, how can a character with such an abysmal MU spread against the high tiers be considered top 15? I honestly feel like R.O.B. is massively overrated in the meta right now and the only reason people have so much trouble against a good R.O.B. as to label him top 15 is basic matchup unfamiliarity, since nobody really uses him. Top 15 is just too generous for how he underperforms against a vast majority of the characters who make up high tier, which is why I think he's barely top 20 at best.

 

[DanGR]

@ Asdioh When the TO doesn't assign matches to specific TVs, I'm that guy that tries to strategically secure TVs with sensitive volume controls. :| Most players don't carry around a pair of headphones for the gamepad too.