Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

Yoshi works completely differently in high level play where people focus on patience and punishing, since most moves of his aren't safe at all. Reliable kill setups are his biggest problem though like was said earlier, and that's also quantified in an environment where people play more carefully. Furthermore FG Yoshis are hardly a good basis to judge the character on, for better or worse.

Fair is a decent move though.
Lots of disjoint, coupled with a superb mobility to stay super safe.
Fair kills, Fair sets up for Uair, or Usmash if you read a reaction.

Yoshi's fair has nice range but disjoint is something it lacks pretty much completely. I've never lost a trade to that move, have won plenty though. His hurtbox extends along with the hitbox and might even come out earlier although that's something I'm not sure about.

EDIT: also anyone who says Yoshi is a bad character needs to get themselves sorted and start playing actual bad characters and then think again

 

[C0rvus]

Yoshi is a frame trapping machine. Between that and Egg confirms, I think Yoshi has a number of subtle ways to improve his gameplan. That said, his primary weak points are in areas that are near essential to being a top character in this game- his grab is poor, meaning he can have a hard time dealing with shields; and his lack of real kill setups hurt him a lot. But, I know he can get Egg followups, some of which can kill, and I know his command grab is a decent enough mixup that can make your opponent wary of shielding. He has a couple safe moves, ridiculously good buttons in jab and nair, top tier mobility, and he ****s out damage with individual hits, with a few combos to work with.

He may be a pile of tools that don't flow together, but why isn't the stuff he has good enough? He is heavy yet fast on the ground and in the air, he has a projectile that moves him in a direction, useful for weaving in and out, playing campy or aggressive. You people underrate him, especially the pessimistic Yoshi mains around here. Yeah, he's harder to work with, but he's got more claims to viability than at least half the cast. Push his meta. I won't say he's high tier, but damn is he far from the worst in this game.

 

[zeldasmash]

I might be late to this, but since when did this "Yoshi is not top tier" thing come along?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I might be late to this, but since when did this "Yoshi is not top tier" thing come along?

Ever since everyone else started getting at least a little results, but Yoshi didn't

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yoshi doesnt struggle against sheilds. His grab is ass but he has a great command grab that can be executed in the air for mixups.

And people: grab combos arent everything. Wario doesn't really have many true combos out of a grab or chomp but we all say he's good right? Keep that in mind.

 

[Macedonian]

Yoshi doesnt struggle against sheilds. His grab is *** but he has a great command grab that can be executed in the air for mixups.

And people: grab combos arent everything. Wario doesn't really have many true combos out of a grab or chomp but we all say he's good right? Keep that in mind.

No but wario has a killing throw and a insta win gimmick to go with his Bette command grab. The Dino has none of that

 

[Kaladin]

Plus, wario gets better reward for a read after Dthrow than yoshi does off any thow: either a bair kill, smash, fart, or jab lock.

 

[Zionaze]

Warios dthrow is the truth in doubles

 

[Rhus]

And people: grab combos arent everything. Wario doesn't really have many true combos out of a grab or chomp but we all say he's good right? Keep that in mind.

Ask Fox about grab combos and his viability.

 

[warionumbah2]

I might be late to this, but since when did this "Yoshi is not top tier" thing come along?

Sinister slush and his boys scared everyone from talking about Yoshi positively. Say good things about Yoshi when he's online i dare you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I never said Yoshi's Fair was his all-solving tool, I simply said it was decent.

 

[Mario766]

Didn't they only adjust Ike's hitboxes on his jab 1-2 and forward air? They didn't really give him more range or anything from what I gather...?

F-Air and Down Air both got hitbox increases for Ike, the only other changes were making the sword trail match hitboxes. Jab 2 and 3 hit faster compared to 1.0.4, with jab 2 hitting 3 frames faster and jab 3 hitting one frame faster.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ask Fox about grab combos and his viability.

I thought it was agreed upon that Fox is good?

 

[C0rvus]

That was the point I think. He meant that you don't need throw combos to be good, so Yoshi has a shot. Unless I misinterpreted.

 

[Zionaze]

What if zss had a normal grab :0

 

[Rhus]

Yeah, I was agreeing with you. McCloud is really strong but he's so polarized with so many exploitable weaknesses.

One of those weaknesses is a terribad throw game. He's still really strong despite it, so it's not 100% necessary for a character to have a great throw game with killing/comboing throws to be viable.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fox has a superb neutral, and better, safer, more consistent kill set-ups

Yoshi has none of those. He only has a decent advantage/disadvantage state. Which is why people with bad neutrals think he's so good. Fox and Rosalina are the only high tiers who get so little off grabs. Their S tier neutral game makes up for that. Yoshi has no such neutral.

If he were top tier, it'd be in a completely unique and awkward fashion. Which I really doubt.

 

[NegaNixx]

How do the Mario Bros (all four of them) do against Swordies in general?

 

[bc1910]

What if zss had a normal grab :0

You get pre-patch Diddy with jet boots.

 

[Spinosaurus]

How do the Mario Bros (all four of them) do against Swordies in general?

They're really annoying for Wario. Pretty confident that Marth is a bad MU for him as well.

 

[DunnoBro]

How do the Mario Bros (all four of them) do against Swordies in general?

Struggle in neutral and in a lot of situations, though just being overall better characters keeps them from losing too badly.

 

[Rhus]

Fox has a superb neutral, and better, safer, more consistent kill set-ups

Yoshi has none of those. He only has a decent advance/disadvantage state. Which is why people with bad neutrals think he's so good. Fox and Rosalina are the only high tiers who get so little off grabs. Their S tier neutral game makes up for that. Yoshi has no such neutral.

If he were top tier, it'd be in a completely unique and awkward fashion. Which I really doubt.

I would agree with all of this. I was merely stating that writing off a character because of their lack of profit off of grabs was incorrect. Fox has no killing throws and no guaranteed throw follow-ups.

I honestly don't know enough about Yoshi to give specific input on him here, I was just pointing out that his throw game alone is likely not to blame.

 

[Nabbitnator]

You get pre-patch Diddy with jet boots.

It would probably be worse if that happened.

 

[Xeze]

How do the Mario Bros (all four of them) do against Swordies in general?

Mario gets outranged and has trouble in neutral. They all have favorable MUs against him, except Toon Link and Ike (and Robin if you count him as a sword user).

 

[C0rvus]

Toon Link vs Mario feels even-ish. Cape is a problem on a basic level, so projectiles rarely work at long enough range. TL's normals tend to outrange Mario's but his frame data is far worse. So it ends up being a tug of war where TL wants to keep Mario at mid-to-long range, but Mario can easily run away with the stock if he gets in. Not fun.

 

[TriTails]

Mario and Luigi.

Hating swordies since 2001.

I don't know much about Luigi but Fireballs probably do wonders. I do think he wins against Robin tho.

 

[Pazx]

Rob has better frame data with a better grab game and a kill throw along with kill set ups. Rob is a zoner with a 3 frame jab and dtilt. This makes his cqc better than link's by a mile. Where Link falters up close rob has the frame data to compete with some of the faster character jabs.

I'm fairly sure both dtilt and jab are frame 5-6 but I could be wrong.

Yoshi doesnt struggle against sheilds. His grab is *** but he has a great command grab that can be executed in the air for mixups.

And people: grab combos arent everything. Wario doesn't really have many true combos out of a grab or chomp but we all say he's good right? Keep that in mind.

The idea is that Wario has decent reward off of a grab at most percents because he's an incredible edgeguarder and then at higher percentages he can kill with fthrow (and then bthrow just later). Yoshi can't kill with any of his throws but the big thing is if he misses the grab he gets punished more than Wario/non tether characters, so the overall risk/reward of going for the grab is skewed against him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fox has a superb neutral, and better, safer, more consistent kill set-ups

Yoshi has none of those. He only has a decent advantage/disadvantage state. Which is why people with bad neutrals think he's so good. Fox and Rosalina are the only high tiers who get so little off grabs. Their S tier neutral game makes up for that. Yoshi has no such neutral.

If he were top tier, it'd be in a completely unique and awkward fashion. Which I really doubt.

Rosalina get's way more off of grabs than fox. I'm not even sure why you listed her with him.

@ Pazx I have it at 3 frames from older sources. There's no frame data on the ROB boards or kuroganehammer. So that's what I'm going off of.

 

[C0rvus]

Rosa isn't known for her throw game nearly as much as the likes of Sheik, Ness, Mario, Luigi, ZSS, etc. I know she has down throw(?) to up tilt at low percent. How much else is guaranteed? I, among probably most average users here, am largely not familiar with Rosalina's grab game. And I'm interested in the character, so please share some knowledge.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosa isn't known for her throw game nearly as much as the likes of Sheik, Ness, Mario, Luigi, ZSS, etc. I know she has down throw(?) to up tilt at low percent. How much else is guaranteed? I, among probably most average users here, am largely not familiar with Rosalina's grab game. And I'm interested in the character, so please share some knowledge.

Some of her stuff is nore effective on fastfallers. However,:she has uthrow yo utilt uair or jab. Bthrow to fair and dthrow can combo but it's easily DI'd. The uthrow uair stuff works till mid percents and sometimes you can get two uairs during the combo. Sometimes comboing the 2nd one isn't optimal. You can bait air dodges and get pretty early kills because of it. The same is true of dthrow at mid percentages.

I would say ho to the Rosalina boards but that place is a mess with all the MU threads and I never fixed up the combo thread ^__^. But dabuz has a guide on her if you're interested in learning more.

https://youtu.be/_oH4jwBnx2U

It's old but Rosa hasn't changed that much.

 

[Kaladin]

How do the Mario Bros (all four of them) do against Swordies in general?

Four? Mario, luigi, wario, and....?

 

[Xeze]

@ Kaladin Dr. Mario

 

[DunnoBro]

Rosalina get's way more off of grabs than fox. I'm not even sure why you listed her with him.

True, but she's still a tier or two below the grabs of other top tiers. At least in terms of how big apart of her game they are.

Her frame traps for stupid low % upair kills are definitely something fox doesn't have though and thus make her grabs more consistently threatening. (she also has an actual kill throw and better edgeguard set-ups. But I wouldn't really compare that to what sheik, zss, etc do off grabs)

I only listed her though because her and fox are the only top tiers where grabs aren't where the majority of their kills start.

 

[DanGR]

Rosalina has some true juggle traps, (and others that are close, but not quite true) where if they airdodge your attack out of a throw you get a guaranteed follow up.

At low percents some of these strings are a series of 50:50s that don't put Rosalina in any danger. If you guess correctly like 4 times in a row you can get out, but I haven't encountered anyone who is experienced enough to do that yet, even if I go for the same options every time. Most people fall to the second 50:50, not understanding they can continue the guessing game.

Practically speaking, this gives her opponents some leeway for choosing what attack they want to get hit by, basically. Do you want to get knocked off the stage, taking less damage (but more in the long run if you don't know how to deal with rapid spin shenanigans), or do you want to get walled, vertically, by upair? It's pretty bad if your character doesn't have good air speed or one of those meta-defining mobility options. In that case you're kinda screwed.

Upthrow->uptilt doesn't really combo that well. It works because 99% of players don't DI it. Uptilt never combos into upair either. Same goes for bthrow->fair. It's only reliable because people are expecting upthrow/dthrow->upairs.

Upthrow->rapid jab works on fast fallers because no one feels like jumping out of upthrow.

 

[Yikarur]

http://gfycat.com/HoarseFriendlyHerald
@Yoshis Fair

Yoshi isn't a frame trap monster. His moves have too much lag for that and his falling speed is way too bad.

Yoshis neutral isn't "bad", it's just that you either play aggressive and lose to top players because everything Yoshi does is very punishable or you play defensive and lose because your opponent's capatalizes on holes in your game.
But if they do a mistake Yoshi can easily inflict 50+% damage from it. It's not a good character design overall but this is what makes Yoshi viable.
In kill% you have only very predictable killmoves which are all beaten by shield. If Yoshi would finally be able to kill at about 180% of a grab he would be far more threatening at Top Level play. This is the main problem that Yoshi has. This is the reason Yoshis lose. It's a bit sad but Yoshi is just lacking consistent ways to beat very defensive play.
I think he would be easily Top5 if he had any rewards of his bad grabs. But right now you don't really want to use his grab too much and if you do you're not compansated for the risk you've taken.

I still think Yoshi might be Top10 as the game is atm. He drops with people getting better for reasons I've stated.
Yoshi completely destroys anyone who doesn't know how to play the match-up. Your Yoshi MU is basically the indicator if you're good at this game.
That's why people start to drop Yoshi from any Top Tier spots. He just is not that Top Tier character people want him to be. He lacks results because Yoshis will at some point play someone who plays the match-up well and struggle hard because Yoshi has serious flaws. You can watch Raptor vs. Angel Cortes of sktar last weekend if you're interested in how Yoshi struggles against defensive play. It's really sad

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

True, but she's still a tier or two below the grabs of other top tiers. At least in terms of how big apart of her game they are.

Her frame traps for stupid low % upair kills are definitely something fox doesn't have though and thus make her grabs more consistently threatening. (she also has an actual kill throw and better edgeguard set-ups. But I wouldn't really compare that to what sheik, zss, etc do off grabs)

I only listed her though because her and fox are the only top tiers where grabs aren't where the majority of their kills start.

Yeah she doesn't get as much as those guys from grabs. She's definitely not going to get a kill off a grab though. Without a really good read.

@ DanGR you sure uthrow to utilt doesn't work? How would you DI uthrow? I've had people jump oht of jabs b4. I think you can get usmash if they try to double jump away.

 

[wedl!!]

rosa has uthrow>utilt (needs luma) at low percents (5-20%, depends on the char) which leads into an uair depending on di until around 30-35%~?

uthrow>uair works until like 60%, then you can jump out of it and rosa doesn't get anything (unless it's on a platform... or you airdodge and she reads it)

dthrow>fair works until 40% on bad/no di, dthrow>uair with luma works on bad di until like 40%

(someone give me the numbers)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Four? Mario, luigi, wario, and....?

Legendary post.

Dr...wait...who?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

rosa has uthrow>utilt (needs luma) at low percents (5-20%, depends on the char) which leads into an uair depending on di until around 30-35%~?

uthrow>uair works until like 60%, then you can jump out of it and rosa doesn't get anything (unless it's on a platform... or you airdodge and she reads it)

dthrow>fair works until 40% on bad/no di, dthrow>uair with luma works on bad di until like 40%

(someone give me the numbers)

Don't have percentages but if we're taking bad DI you can get a bair (pretty hard). Also I've seen Rosalina go for dsmash after uthrow without Luma. It's more of a read though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since it was mentioned, Rosalina can't guarantee anything out of dthrow, even at low percents. Dthrow > fair in particular looks reliable but you can always airdodge out of it.

I've had issues with uthrow > utilt combos against training dummies. It seems some characters just get bopped by Luma's weak hit without getting hit into Rosalina's halo? Which is bad for her because the halo is where the damage is.